Plans are underway to host a non appleseed Precision mid range marksmanship class at the Vale Range.
Snake River Sportmans will host the event. Oct 12-13 heavy emphisis on reading the wind and mirage.
This class will use spotting scopes to judge wind conditions and estimate sight corrections.
The club will sell 30 cal ammunition in quanities sufficent to complete the course of fire.
Shooters can keep the once fired LC brass
25 years army marksmanship coach will be teaching the event.
Quote from: Mark Davis on August 16, 2013, 11:09:18 AM
Plans are underway to host a non appleseed Precision mid range marksmanship class at the Vale Range.
Snake River Sportsmans will host the event. Oct 13-14 heavy emphasis on reading the wind and mirage.
This class will use spotting scopes to judge wind conditions and estimate sight corrections.
The club will sell 30 cal ammunition in quantities sufficient to complete the course of fire.
Shooters can keep the once fired LC brass
25 years army marksmanship coach will be teaching the event.
Course cost?
Ammo cost?
Do I need to have my own spotting scope?
Thanks!
Course cost and ammo cost are not determined at this time. But could be so low that not being there will make you wish you were.
Nobody will be filling their ammo locker on the forsight of the club.
When Snake River Sportsman get the details ironed out I should have a link to post.
A spotting scope or binoculars will be very usefull.
Oct. 13-14 is a Sunday and Monday. Just want to verify that it is partially a weekday event...?
Must be my error, the event is planned for a weekend. original post will be edited.
Dates given to me are Oct 11-13 Friday, Sat, Sunday.
I still do not have all the details but wanted people to see if can fit in their schedule.
The event may be cancelled if a minimum number of shooters do not sign up.
I'm curious if you have a general idea of the round count and course of fire. How much trigger time versus class time for instance? Also, does "midrange marksmanship" mean skill level or distance?
This being planned in Oregon. I live 500 miles away in Montana. I am not involved in the planning.
My understanding is that sight settings will be confirmed at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards.
"class time" is scheduled for afternoon, when the wind picks up, the students will be looking through spotting scopes gauging wind and mirage, then estimating sight corrections.
One master class highpower shooter will fire, with sight corrections known to all, everyone will evaluate the results.
Mid range refers to target distance.
Round count is unknown to me.
The club has old stock CMP ammo and will sell it resonable in price, in quanities close to the round count.
I dare not repeat the price of ammo quoted to me verbally with out confirmation from Snake River Sportsman.
I will say the price could be described as pre-present federal admistration.
First let me say this class is in response to several who attended the KD Appleseed hosted by Snakeriver Sportsmen last April. I would recommend that only individuals who have learned the basics and have a Rifleman patch should consider attending. Snakeriver Sportsmen is offering the next level of instruction, Wind and Mirage to US citizens. It might be a year or so but once you've learned it and can demonstrate it you'll be able to teach it. God save the County.
Mark asked me to answer some of the questions that have come up. While we have not finalized everything this is the general plan.
Friday afternoon till dark: sighters from 100 yards to at least 400 yards further if time and ammo permits. The time will be determined once we have a firm idea as to how many can make it. Cost $5.00 + ammo. This is a first opportunity to collect data about your rifle and your ammo.
Saturday: 8:30 till 5:00
8:30 to 10:00 Class room wind and mirage with a couple of other important items
10:00 - 11:30: 100 yard sighters and instruction, another opportunity to collect data
11:30 - 12:00 Lunch Bring food and water it's 2 miles to town
12:00 - 13:00 200 yard sighters and instruction again data collection and instruction
13:00 - 14:00 300 yard sighters and instruction more data, first real look at mirage more data
14:00 - 15:00 400 yard sighters more data, the mirage starts to get interesting.
15:00 - 17:00 Participants will call wind corrections to a High Master shooter, the purpose is for the class to see accurate results of wind and mirage calls. If you have never had the opportunity to do this let me suggest that this exercise will take two years off your learning curve of accurately reading wind and mirage and understanding how being able to read the mirage eliminates wind value corrections. (if you don't don't know what a wind value correction is don't worry you'll find out.)
Sunday 8:30 - 5:00
3 rounds of the Army's version of the AQT. You'll like it. 50 rounds per, 150 total.
Our instructor is Don Curtis, High Master. He shot on for the Army rifle team for his entire service career 20 + years and coached his team to at least 2 national championships shooting and coaching the Army's Precision Combat Rifle team (distances and positions the same as Appleseed 100 - 400 yards). He also shot and coached individual's and rifle teams shooting out to 1,000 yards. If you want to learn to shoot better than the other guy past 82' you might be interested in listening to what he has to say.
Mike Elway, High Master was a team member with Don and was coached by Don. Mike will be doing the shooting at 400 yards. He is the kind of shooter than can tell you where the shot will be, if the wind call was correct, within a few inches at 1,000 yards. Don't tell him I bragged on him this way, it'll make him blush.
Just a local side note, When the US decided to deploy M-14's in the Middle East after 9/11 the local National Guard Unit asked Don and Mike train soldiers to accurately fire these weapons. Since the M-14 were the rifle's being issued at the time Don and Mike enlisted they were also being used in Military competitions. Don and Mike put on quite a demonstration of the M-14's full capabilities. And No I don't mean full auto, what I do mean is accurate rapid fire, 28 hits at 400 yards in 50 seconds. I know they saved some lives.
The cost per shooter will be $25.00 per day and will include the Army's Precision Combat Rifle Data Book. A very useful item.
The round count will be 200 plus any sighters shot Friday night.
Lake City Arsenal M2 Ball (30.06) will be available at $0.50 per round only in the amounts being fired for the class.
Snakeriver Sportsmen has 4 or 5 M1 Garand's to loan for the class on a first come basis. Also if you happen to have a AR-15 rifle with poorly adusting sights and decide you would like borrow one the club has 6 or 7 available for the class. All rifles have iron sights etc., again on a first come basis let me know.
Spotting Scope or Binoculars: If you have them bring them. If you can see the mirage with your particular equipment they will work. If you can't in the future you might consider optic's that would actually be useful. However don't worry because various members of the club have offered the use of their personal equipment so there should be plenty of high quality optic's available.
If you are interested or if you have any questions please contact me.
Rod Davis
rod_davis@reagan.com
208-794-5469
I regret that I will not be able to make this event. I had an excellent time at the last KD event in Vale last April and it was a pleasure to meet Don then. If you can shoot at least 4 MOA and would like to develop your actual distance shooting skills, then put this date on your calendar and take it in.
Have a great time, Rod! Thanks to you and your club for putting this together.
ShadowMan
This event was a blast. All those of you who thought about going, but couldn't make it: you missed out. There was talk about scheduling a repeat session next year, maybe in the May-June time frame, and if it happens I'll be there again ready to learn.
The two instructors were both veterans of the Army Reserve Rifle Team, they were both on the team in the 1970's when the team beat out the active duty Army and Marines to take the championship. The lead instructor was the head coach of the team that year. It's safe to say they knew a little bit about rifle shooting, and how to coach and instruct.
I arrived at the range as the sun was coming up on Saturday morning, cold and dark, but beautiful country.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3690/10272102183_6df9261b93.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/squirrel_patrol/10272102183/)
Up early to shoot (http://www.flickr.com/photos/squirrel_patrol/10272102183/) by Squirrel Patrol (http://www.flickr.com/people/squirrel_patrol/), on Flickr
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/10271910494_75902a775a.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/squirrel_patrol/10271910494/)
At the range entrance (http://www.flickr.com/photos/squirrel_patrol/10271910494/) by Squirrel Patrol (http://www.flickr.com/people/squirrel_patrol/), on Flickr
The range itself is very nice, this picture from about 450 yards shows the various possible target line and firing positions. There are additional berms all the way back to 1000 yards angled off to the left from where I took this picture.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3773/10271908464_feabca0416.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/squirrel_patrol/10271908464/)
The range from the 450 yard line (http://www.flickr.com/photos/squirrel_patrol/10271908464/) by
Squirrel Patrol (http://www.flickr.com/people/squirrel_patrol/), on Flickr
Setting up to shoot from the 100 yard line. I believe we had 10 students, so we put five and an instructor in the pits, and five and several instructors on the line, and shot from 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. The course of fire was similar to an AQT.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2889/10272002065_2862250e05.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/squirrel_patrol/10272002065/)
Setting up at 100 yards (http://www.flickr.com/photos/squirrel_patrol/10272002065/) by Squirrel Patrol (http://www.flickr.com/people/squirrel_patrol/), on Flickr
Almost all the students were part of the Appleseed family, and I saw several rifleman patches scattered around.
The instruction started with a quick review of the positions. There were some differences from what Appleseed teaches:
Standing: In competition shooting, you don't use the sling. So they demonstrated the proper off-hand position. We were given the choice to shoot with or without the sling when the time came. I tried both ways, and my best score at 100 yards was actually shot off-hand without a sling, but it was also the last run of the weekend, which had far more to do with the improvement.
Sitting: They didn't bother instructing the kneeling or open legged position, they recommend crossed leg or crossed ankle. They did insist that it should be trigger foot inside support foot, with the trigger elbow socketed into the inside pocket of the knee, and the support elbow forward of the knee. This is of course all about absorbing recoil better.
Prone: They stopped using the prone position as we teach it over 30 years ago. Instead of angling out 30-45 degrees, they try and scrunch up directly behind the rifle, the better to absorb recoil and be back on target faster. Most of the position is the same, but the support leg will tend to be angled much straighter back, with the foot ending up flat behind the trigger side foot.
After reviewing positions, NPOA, breathing and such, we moved into the meat of the clinic: mirage and wind. I'd never even heard of mirage in relation to shooting before this, so it was all new to me. They showed us how to see mirage through a spotting scope. You focus halfway to your target, then look at the target. The mirage should be visible, particularly on the straight line at the top of the target or berm. To me, it looked almost like the scope was filled with oil, and it was flowing across the field of view. The advantage of using the mirage instead of wind flags is that it's a more accurate representation of the total line of travel, not just the point(s) where you have flags. Of course, while seeing the mirage and figuring out what direction it's moving was easy through a spotting scope, figuring out how MUCH movement is an art with lots of practice required.
After that last bit of instruction, we moved to the 400 yard line, one instructor set up with his AR-15, and we as a group read the wind and mirage and came up with directions for how he should adjust his sights, and he'd shoot our settings. He was using what he considered light bullets for the range and conditions, and was still basically drilling holes exactly in line with our commands. It was impressive, and good practice on reading the conditions.
After that we moved half of us to the 100 yard line and half into the pits. From there is was shooting for the rest of the weekend. I was having some trouble with my Garand so didn't shoot as much or as well as I would have liked, but I still ended the day by putting my first 3 of 7 shots through the V-ring at 400 yards. You can safely say that I left happy with the instruction and coaching that led me to that result.
It was a great event and very, very helpful! I am really looking forward to my local range putting in some distances beyond 200 yards.
The instruction on Saturday morning was excellent. Don and Mike are obviously some of the most knowledgeable people on the subject of high power shooting, but they also conveyed the information clearly and in a logical, organized way. Both of them were also very friendly and approachable.
The coaching and instruction available on the line was great both Saturday and Sunday. There were enough coaches, I felt, to make sure everyone was getting the attention needed. A lot of people seemed to have "ah hah!" moments as the earlier instructions about positioning, windage, and mirage went into practical use while shooting. Myself among them.
A BIG THANK YOU! to everyone at Snake River Sportsmen, and Pa Rah for putting this together with his club. It's a beautiful range with truly awesome members. Josh and I hope to come back for another class like this next year, if possible.
On behalf of Snake River Sportsmen I would like to thank everyone who attended the Mid-Range Precision Rifle Clinic this past week end. As usual, Appleseed'ers aren't afraid to drive several hundred miles to get in on the action. Thank you.
Truly I believe everyone worked hard processing new information and worked hard on applying what what was learned. I also think we also had a little fun dealing with the new set of variables shooting out to 400 yards brings not to mention the quarter to full value 17 - 18 mile per hour winds on Sunday.
Having also been to KD Appleseed last April in Vale, I can say this time around I saw marked individual improvements in being able to hit targets out to 400 yards over what I saw last spring. Very, very good job! Don't forget to pass along what you learned you may very well save someone's life.
I'll let everyone know a couple of months in advance of the next clinic, however feel free to contact me on this site or at rod_davis@reagan.com. As of now our next scheduled clinic will be the regular annual High-Power Clinic which will be April 12-13, 2013. As Don mentioned in closing Sunday, the only real difference in the clinic he put on last weekend and the high-power clinic is the targets are a little smaller and we shoot a little farther. But that okay, because that gives me the chance to quote the movie Patriot, "Aim small miss small".
Thanks again everyone, hope to see you soon,
Rod