Folks, let's network what we know about .22 ammo here. I'm not so interested in prices, but results, accuracy, reliability and function are what we want to know.
I once bought a lot of Swartzkopf .22 rimfire - made in South Africa - and totally inaccurate in every rifle/pistol I tried it - except for a Thompson Contender with a 10" barrel - where it shot like match ammo...
Go figure!
There's a guy who way ahead of the curve on this, Kim Du Toit. Interestingly, I read these just yesterday so it was quite a coincidence this thread popped up!
Here's his "Range Reports" on the .22 ammunition he has tried:
Standard Velocity .22LR
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/9008/ (http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/9008/)
Aguila Super SE, CCI Velocitor .22LR
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5485/ (http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5485/)
Premium .22LR Ammo
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5229/ (http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5229/)
Remington Viper Hyper-Velocity Ammo .22LR
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5195/ (http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5195/)
Of course, as he states it, everyone will shoot differently even with the same gun. You should try out different types of ammunition to see how you and your gun like it.
Personally I enjoy CCI and Remington myself, and I've always done well with them. Everything else I use for plinking.
I've got experience with five different types of .22LR rimfire ammo, so I'll post up that:
.22 platforms: Marlin 795 and Taurus 94 5" revolver.
Remington bulk box: Got these at Walmart, stored right along side the Federal bulk box. Neither gun seems to care for these. I get inconsistent ignition, I've had bullets fall apart while feeding in the Marlin, and they string vertically a lot. I suspect a very poor crimp procedure for these. I don't even bother buying them anymore.
Federal bulk box: Walmart ammo, right now about $10 for 550 rounds. Good stuff, IMO. Still a little bit of vertical stringing, probably due to variable bullet weights or powder charges, but tolerable ammo. Kills bunnies dead very well. In about 3000 rounds of this stuff, I have yet to have a failure to fire. That's pretty commendable for rimfire ammo, IMO.
CCI Stingers: More expensive... about $4 for 50 rounds. My Marlin LOVES THIS STUFF. I outshot my dad's brand new bull-barreled 10/22 using stingers in my old gun. If you want to shoot .22 past about 50 yards, you need to step up to something a bit better than the bulk boxes, and this works well for me. The cases are a bit longer than a standard .22LR case, so some guns may not care for them. I've shot about 500 rounds of these, and I always keep a couple boxes of them in the house. They run really well for me. Never a misfire/FTF, none have ever fallen apart on me.
CCI minimags: Kerpow! They actually feel hotter than regular .22LR ammo. lighter bullet (32gr, IIRC) than most other offerings. I've only put about 100 rounds of these through my Marlin, none through my Taurus revolver. Different POI than most the other stuff, so I haven't bought any more.
Federal Auto-Match: This stuff is interesting. It is a non-plated bullet, 325 rounds for about $15 at Walmart. Specifically designed for peak accuracy in semiautos, they claim. If your gun is happy shooting lead rimfire ammo, it will serve you very well. I don't buy the Federal bulk bricks of 550 rounds any more, I buy these. My marlin really seems to like them almost as much as the stingers, and they are about half the price of the stingers. Again, no misfires so far in nearly 1000 rounds, and none have fallen apart.
QuoteFederal bulk box: Walmart ammo, right now about $10 for 550 rounds. Good stuff, IMO. Still a little bit of vertical stringing,
Now that you mention it, I see a lot of vertical stringing with this stuff, too -- not so much with Remington bulk box.
I suggest people start reading here:http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46452 (http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46452).
Probably have a couple of cases of various ages and brands
of 22. I can say with probably a couple of dozen rifles and
handguns in that caliber, each has their own personality. Some
are medicure for accuracy no matter what is fed to them.
However, a salvaged Model 75 (Came with a cut down barrel :'()
will put anything fed to it in mall groups. Haven't stored in
any type of controled environment, but suspect heat and/or
damp would not be good! I have some truely hot stuff from
the 70s that I limit to newer rifles, made in Canada I believe,
CIL Imperial. Good stuff, but I suspect a tad above stingers.
Not much experience with those not made in the USA, but these
go clickbang in most all conditions and function in all the chambers
they are designed for
I don't have any first hand knowledge, I want you to know that up front.
I also have NO written proof, you need to know that up front, too.
I got lucky and was talking with a guy who seemed to know what he was talking about with respect to .22 LR manufacturing.
He told me that .22 LR ammo is NOT graded by accuracy, it is graded by number of failures to fire per 1,000 and by velocity variations.
This is because the priming compound is spun into the rim of the cartridge by centripetal force and it can be missing in spots or thin in spots. Missing will give you a misfire. Thin will give you less instantaneous ignition and you will most likely loose pressure as some powder will be ejected unburned.
This is the hierarchy for High Speed stuff.
The best stuff becomes the high level stuff, Remington Golden Bullet, Winchester Super X and the plated Federal in the 50 round red and white boxes.
The next grade down goes into the bulk packs. These won't have too many dead spots, but MAY well have thin spots.
Then you have the "loss leader" grade stuff, the stuff that is sold cheaper than they can actually make it, just to get rid of it, and it is used to pull you into stores. This is Remington Thunderbolt, Winchester Wildcat and probably Federal American Eagle.
Finally, there is stuff that never makes it out of the plant, it is broken down and recycled right there.
There are similar levels, WITH SOME MANUFACTURERS for standard velocity (CCI) and others just make different lots and you may get good or not so good.
Buckshot
Remington SubSonic Hollow points work rather nicely for me - and they're great for assassinating the neighbors cat at 3 am
I keed! I Keed! I KEED!
The best 22 ammo I have ever found is Western Expert in the yellow box. Don't go looking for it because they quit making it in the 1950's. I bought a few cases of the stuff twenty years ago and it turned out to be super accurate. I shoot it in my Anshutz Rifle and my Hammerli Free Pistol. Paid $5.00 a brick for it. Don't know what I'll do when it's gone.
Doug in Virginia
While this probably will not happen ever again, as .22 Shorts are more expensive than LR, Firing only .22 Shorts in a S, L, and LR chambered .22 rifle will cause a "Burn Ring" after a long period of time. With the shoulder being farther forward the .22 short will cause a visual dark ring to form in the chamber. Most rounds insert fully into the chamber, and the throat area is where the highest pressure will form, but since the shorter rounds of the .22 don't go that far, the burn ring forms where the pressure is the highest. It's probably the only rifle that will do this, since it was a cheap, common round back in the day and there are 3 sizes to fire out of it.
You'll probably never notice it until you start getting stuck rounds in the chamber when you switch to LRs, as the brass swells in the burn ring and then has to be swaged back out of it. I have seen this first hand in my Grandfather's Winchester 67. Unfortunately, the only cure for it is to rebarrel or put a barrel liner in it if the receiver and barrel are one piece. Or alternately, only fire .22 shorts in it.
The sad part is I mirror-polished the rifle before noticing this...
Not arguing Muddog, just wanted to ask what type of rifle you have. My dad's old prewar Savage Model 29 has had a large pile of .22 shorts through it over the years with seemingly no issues. The shorts are quiet, they kill squirrels as dead as a a .22 LR with head shots (head shots don't mess up any meat) and he said that on the (rare I'd say after hunting with him for years) occasion that he missed one he said most of the time they didn't realize they'd been shot at as the .22 short is so quiet. He does shoot LR's through it when I can talk him into a little target shooting.
I've heard the same thing about the shorts but I've never shot any in my rifles. These days shorts are next to impossible to buy unless you find them at a regular gun store. Have a good one bud.
Quote from: M1A4ME on August 09, 2007, 11:22:26 PM
Not arguing Muddog, just wanted to ask what type of rifle you have. My dad's old prewar Savage Model 29 has had a large pile of .22 shorts through it over the years with seemingly no issues. The shorts are quiet, they kill squirrels as dead as a a .22 LR with head shots (head shots don't mess up any meat) and he said that on the (rare I'd say after hunting with him for years) occasion that he missed one he said most of the time they didn't realize they'd been shot at as the .22 short is so quiet. He does shoot LR's through it when I can talk him into a little target shooting.
I've heard the same thing about the shorts but I've never shot any in my rifles. These days shorts are next to impossible to buy unless you find them at a regular gun store. Have a good one bud.
Lol actually it's in the post:
QuoteI have seen this first hand in my Grandfather's Winchester 67.
It's a single shot that has to be cocked after loading, really inexpensive. It is possible that the steel in your father's rifle is stronger than the Winchester's. My Grandfather was given this rifle as a boy by his father, it was the only weapon they had for a long time as they were poor share-croppers(meat was probably expensive for them, so rabbit and squirrel were a good option). It's probably only had .22 S fired in it, after he got a Semi-auto in his later years he probably never shot it again.
I just wanted to mention that this can occur, and it's something to watch for if you have or are going to purchase an older rifle.
Back in the 90's a friend turned me onto Winchester 'PowerPoints', 40 grn. hp, (marked Australia), very accurate, powerful. Later offerings were marked made in USA, not quite as accurate, but still good. don't think they've made them in a while, but if you find them at a show, give them a try, probaly be pricey though, if the dealer knows what he's got.
Back in the eighties (?) Win. offered a 42 grn. SWC, called 'Super Silhouette', very accurate, very pricey. Effective on small game. Maybe ten tears ago found a brick at a show for $15 bucks, that was a steal! Might find some at a show. Don't hold your breath.
CCI Blazers,,promo, used to be $11 a brick at a local store, 'Dick's', but all they carry now is Remington (don't care for it). Since last year and this year the Balzer I've seen at shows is $15 a brick. Shot good in three or four rifles I tried it in. Killed alot of Squirrels & tin cans and paper w/ it.
CCI Green Tag never impressed me much.
CCI SGB (small game bullet). Accurate & effective. Specialty item. Don't see it around too much.
CCI Stingers were never all that accurate for me.
Remington sub-sonic. Very tight groups at 25 yds. Use it when hunting close to home. the neighbors don't notice(so far).
Last year had a skunk take up residence around the house . Almost tripped over him a few times coming home from work in the wee hours. Took my Glenfield M25, Weaver Classic 300 (1in.) to work. Returning home parked on the side of the lawn . Figured I had a safe enough angle. Three a.m., light rain falling , perfect. Light from the front porch & a nearby street lamp. Waited about fifteen minutes. He waddles to the middle of the front lawn. Things were dim, but I guessed the crosshairs on his head. He slumped stock still at the 'pop'. Hit him again just to be sure. Nobody heard nuthin'.
CCI Velocitor,,,fairly new offering (pricey) . Forty grn. hp @1400 fps. Very accurate @ 50 yds. Didn't get out much last season, but stopped a few squirrels w/ the stuff. Might be my new 'serious' small game load.
As an aside,,,I read a review of a new Aguila offering a few months ago,,,A forty grn. hp @ 1500fps. Haven't seen any to try it. ,,,but it sure is fast for a .22 lr. Probaly pricey.
Aguila also makes a 60 grn. SS (sub-sonic). It's supposed to require a fast twist. I've shot it through the Glenfield @ 50yds. about an 1 1/2 ". If you have one of those fast twist bbls'. on your 10/22 might make a good 100 yd. load.
My recommendation at present is the bulk packed Federal at ChinaMart , $10 per 550 rnds. I haven't shot too much of it, but it seems to shoot good at 50 yds. Probaly the best ammo deal in the country at present. My experience is most standard velocity shoots pretty good. Many high vel. loadings shoot good or even excellent. Years ago tried Armscor (Phillipine) Std. & Hi-Vel, the Std. was so-so, the Hi-Vel was very good. Bought a brick of Winchester X-Pert one time. Shot so bad I pulled the bullets and used them in a slingshot,,,Just joking, but they sux'd. I've tried lotsa of different .22 rimfire loadings through the years, including some exotic foreign stuff like spitzers. but if you can't get it, or it costs too much to shoot in quantity,,,why bother?
For platforms : the afforementioned Glenfield is my go-to gun. I honed the trigger some years ago and replaced the trigger spring w/ a spring from a mechanical pencil. When I want to show off I'll trot out the Browning T-Bolt (I'd like to shake the hand of the person who fitted that trigger ! I've got a couple other rimfires, but lately I've been trying to spend some time with my long neglected 10/22. I've had it out a few times this summer, and was pretty unhappy w/ it, then I noticed the stock screw was loose. Now I'm waiting for the Tech-Sight group buy to coalesce.
Quote from: Muddogg on August 10, 2007, 12:57:07 AM
Quote from: M1A4ME on August 09, 2007, 11:22:26 PM
Not arguing Muddog, just wanted to ask what type of rifle you have. My dad's old prewar Savage Model 29 has had a large pile of .22 shorts through it over the years with seemingly no issues. The shorts are quiet, they kill squirrels as dead as a a .22 LR with head shots (head shots don't mess up any meat) and he said that on the (rare I'd say after hunting with him for years) occasion that he missed one he said most of the time they didn't realize they'd been shot at as the .22 short is so quiet. He does shoot LR's through it when I can talk him into a little target shooting.
I've heard the same thing about the shorts but I've never shot any in my rifles. These days shorts are next to impossible to buy unless you find them at a regular gun store. Have a good one bud.
Lol actually it's in the post:
QuoteI have seen this first hand in my Grandfather's Winchester 67.
It's a single shot that has to be cocked after loading, really inexpensive. It is possible that the steel in your father's rifle is stronger than the Winchester's. My Grandfather was given this rifle as a boy by his father, it was the only weapon they had for a long time as they were poor share-croppers(meat was probably expensive for them, so rabbit and squirrel were a good option). It's probably only had .22 S fired in it, after he got a Semi-auto in his later years he probably never shot it again.
I just wanted to mention that this can occur, and it's something to watch for if you have or are going to purchase an older rifle.
Muddog,
Your grandpa's Winchester 67 MIGHT have been fired with shorts with corrosive primers. Corrosive primers and not much cleaning would create much more damage than will happen nowdays with non-corrosive primers.
This same situation happens when .38 Specials are fired in a .357 Magnum or 44 Specials are fired in a .44 Magnum and only causes some residue that has to be removed with a brass brush and some solvent, just modern shorts in a LR chamber.
Buckshot
Quote from: Buckshot on August 11, 2007, 01:57:03 AM
Muddog,
Your grandpa's Winchester 67 MIGHT have been fired with shorts with corrosive primers. Corrosive primers and not much cleaning would create much more damage than will happen nowdays with non-corrosive primers.
This same situation happens when .38 Specials are fired in a .357 Magnum or 44 Specials are fired in a .44 Magnum and only causes some residue that has to be removed with a brass brush and some solvent, just modern shorts in a LR chamber.
Buckshot
It is possible that the .22 ammunition used was corrosive, as this rifle's production run was 1935-1940, and assuming that my Great-grandfather probably purchased this rifle when he started on the farm, it has had a good long life. But the bore itself is uncorroded, and only the burn ring remains. I'm sure it has occured in the past, as my instructors have knowledge of them. But many of the afflicted rifles would have been tossed in the garbage in those days, much like a broken hammer or screwdriver, the owners just purchased a new one. Also judging from the headspace(recessed ~.004), it was probably fired many times in the years that it served my fore-fathers.
Some info on .22 ammo, Bulk pack Federal from Wal-Mart are pretty good. Bulk pack Winchester power points from Wallys with large hollow points excellent for stopping ground squirrels. good accuracy too.
American Eagles are better slightly, My experiments with Remingtons have left disappointment. Minimags good, Wildcats good. All these Can shoot 1 1/2 " at 50 yards or 3 MOA. !00 yards? Better get a tall target! For accuaracy it is hard to beat high end european ammo that cost nearly the same as centerfire ammo. This ammo can shoot nearly 1 MOA at 100 Meters. Right now I am shooting on a case of Remington-Eley. Mfg. by Eley sold by Rem. it gives me approx 1 1/4 Horizontal X 1 3/4 vertical at !00 meters. In a Anschutz rifle with 16x scope.
A small hint for 10-22 shooters, lead bullets with wax lube on them will clog the inside of your magazine with wax. Anybody can take a Ruger 10-22 mag apart with an allen wrench. Cleaning the mag is easy too. Putting one back together brings to mind something about the devil in the details.
The .22 Long Rifle is Americas most popular cartridge. So burn a brick today!
Clodhopper
Now I am embarrased.
My last post about 3 MOA on good cheap ammo should be 3/4 " at 50 yards or 1 1/2 moa. Maybe I need to go to another apple seed to learn about the dangers of math in public. Some more drills in MOA and rapid fire is good for the soul.
Clodhopper
Something folks need to remember about .22's and just about any centerfire rifles. What shoots good in one may not shoot good in the next one. My 10/22 shoots better with Rem. Golden bullets than with the Federal or Rem. Thunderbolt bulkpack or brick ammo. My Ruger Mk1 bull barrel shoots the Thunderbolts better than anything else I ever ran through it. Its good to share experiences with rifles and ammo but due to the above most everyone will have a slightly different experience and opinion about what is best. Have a good one.
Quote from: M1A4ME on August 27, 2007, 02:26:24 AM
Something folks need to remember about .22's and just about any centerfire rifles. What shoots good in one may not shoot good in the next one. My 10/22 shoots better with Rem. Golden bullets than with the Federal or Rem. Thunderbolt bulkpack or brick ammo. My Ruger Mk1 bull barrel shoots the Thunderbolts better than anything else I ever ran through it. Its good to share experiences with rifles and ammo but due to the above most everyone will have a slightly different experience and opinion about what is best. Have a good one.
Very Very True!
Consecutive serial numbered rifles off of the same production line can prefer TOTALLY DIFFERENT ammo from each other. One will shoot PATTERNS with the ammo the other one loves.
It is not always this way, but it CAN BE, and those of us around a while HAVE SEEN IT.
If you want to see another real mess, just switch from one known good ammo to another known good ammo WITHOUT CLEANING IN BETWEEN! I have seen this, too. Groups to patterns with the patterns slowly (300 or so rounds) settling back into groups. It is the differences in the coatings on the various brands of ammo. If you run three passes with a Bore Snake between the kinds of ammo both will shoot just fine with NO PATTERNS, just groups.
Just little things you learn from spending too much time with .22 rifles.
Buckshot
Another thing to be aware of is that the manufacturer can CHANGE the design of a particular round without warning!
Case in point: A few years back, Remington changed the design of the hollowpoint bullet in it's 550 round bulk pack that is sold at WalMart. From one box to another, what HAD been a perfectly reliable round in my Ruger MK 1 pistol turned my pistol into a jammomatic. >:( I switched to Federal, and the MK 1 is much happier. (basically, the hollowpoint changed in shape - it was blunter, and thus would catch on the feed ramp in the pistol)
Strangely enough, my 10/22 doesn't CARE which round it shoots, so far.
Hold on to that 10/22! I have a BAR (not the military rifle, the Browning semi auto deer rifle in 30.06) that shoots 150's and 180's into the same group out to 300 yds. and that is rare. When you run across an omnivorous rifle, you've got something worth keeping. I've only shot 3 types of .22 ammo in my 10/22 and I get 3 different group sizes depending on the brand/type I'm shooting.
Quote from: VAshooter on August 09, 2007, 05:28:02 PM
The best 22 ammo I have ever found is Western Expert in the yellow box. Don't go looking for it because they quit making it in the 1950's. I bought a few cases of the stuff twenty years ago and it turned out to be super accurate. I shoot it in my Anshutz Rifle and my Hammerli Free Pistol. Paid $5.00 a brick for it. Don't know what I'll do when it's gone.
Doug in Virginia
Western Expert was EXCELLENT ammo and their premium the same or better (EZ X's). I still have two bricks of EZ X'S I'm saving untill I come across some collector that just has to have them bad enouch that I can buy a case of 10 X.
So what did I do?, I'd rather switch than quit so I switched. Mostly I use CCI Standard now.
I shot my first rounds of Federal from Wally world just last week. I had several mis-fires that I reloaded back into the mag after the group was done that fired again. I bought the 325 pack. I would say from what I shot so far that I am not going to purchase it again. Rem sub sonic or CCI blazer has been very kind to me so far. The Federal gave me about 5 or 6 duds as well, per the 325 box. I had not had any issue with ammo like that other than with the Pakistani .308 that came around early this year. I think the Federal is kinda dirty as well.
Ax
We sold some of that Winchester Match ammo for $20 a brick last weekend.
Two Glock, I can relate to the sonms and grandsons needing "entertainment".
Quote from: KodyJaret on August 10, 2007, 06:29:27 AM
Back in the 90's a friend turned me onto Winchester 'PowerPoints', 40 grn. hp, (marked Australia), very accurate, powerful. Later offerings were marked made in USA, not quite as accurate, but still good. don't think they've made them in a while, but if you find them at a show, give them a try, probaly be pricey though, if the dealer knows what he's got.
I've never shot the Aussie "Power Points," but at least one of my rifles likes the American ones better than any other HV's I've found. They're still available, probably now between $25 and $30 per brick. A lot more than Promo stuff, but tolerable when better accuracy is demanded. Some of the catalog dealers and a few gunstores have them, but not Wally World.
CCI stingers are very impressive on impact but I've never been happy with their accuracy.
For ultra-newbies who are apprehensive about shooting any gun, I've had good success with using Remington .22 long CB caps for their first five or ten rounds, but I haven't found any gun that shoots them accurately. But they're so quiet and mild they serve in that role real well. They ought to be adequate for pests and really small game, if I could find a gun that liked them.
My bull-barrel Ruger Mark II likes the old blue-box PMC Scoremaster SV long rifles, but I haven't seen them anywhere for several years, and I'm almost out. On a good day I can shoot the difference between them and HV stuff, but I'm not nearly good enough to shoot the difference between them and match ammo, although I invested in a few boxes to try.
Hope this helps somebody. But as has been pointed out a few times in this thread, each rimfire arm is a law unto itself.
At Davilla last week, I had to pull my primary .22 off the line and go with my backup, a Marlin 39A. Beautiful gun, but it didn't want to feed those Winchester Power Points (that fed fine through my primary rifle), at least not every time. The PP's have a pretty good sized hollow point, and are kinda blunt. Luckily I had a brick of PMC Sidewinder, unplated lead RN, HV stuff. Pretty cheap, and they answered fine. 8)
You might want to check the bulk Wincester Dynapoints. I thought that my rifle was bending the nose when they wouldn't chamber correctly, then for some reason I grabbed a handful out of the bulk box and found a half a dozen that were pre-bent, no wonder they wouldn't chamber. Once I saw that and filtered the ammo, I had no trouble. I like the cheap stuff. I've bought Eley and federal gold etc. But My rifles don't seem to like them, they're probably just cheap like me.
"A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work"
Quote from: 30CalGal on November 13, 2007, 04:30:00 PM
"A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work"
Boy ain't that the truth. The little buggers were all over me today! 27 5yo's and I am not getting any younger!
I think I will go to the range for a while. Maybe some aqt will calm my nerves.
we need snake45 to chime in on this thread.
he has done extensive testing with .22 ammo!
dont get me wrong i am a huge fan of all 22 caliber rounds, but if anyone really wants to have some fun try a ruger #1 chambered in 458. kicks like a mule but punches holes as big as my thumb in 1/4'' thick steel siloett targets at 100 yards, cant argue w/ results.
Quote from: jpf on November 13, 2007, 05:17:54 PM
we need snake45 to chime in on this thread.
he has done extensive testing with .22 ammo!
I'd have been here sooner but I only just this minute discovered this thread! ;)
Here ya go, here's everything I learned about six different kinds of cheap ammo shooting them in more than two dozen different rifles:
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168594
Read all that and then feel free to ask any follow-up questions.
Snake,
Very nice summary of 22 ammo.
I just default to CCI mini mags for Appleseeds. MidwayUSA sells 500 for $25 in the individual 100 packs.
CCI is the only 22 mag my Marlin 922M will shoot without extraction problems.
MiniMags are good stuff, very reliable, consistent, and best of all accurate in a wide variety of guns. Now over 5c a shot in my area they're a bit spendy for ALL my shooting but I shoot them without hesistation in my guns that really like them.
I saw that bit over at Rimfire Central, and Snake, good job.
That cleared a LOT of it up for me.
I see that the cheap Federal I've been getting from Wal-Mart is going to be good enough for practice and for training new shooters.
I do have 2 or 3 bricks of Remington standard velocity (some mil-surp stuff) for my 513-T, and the 10/22's will eat Federal.
This year's production of Fed Bulks seems to be down a bit on power. Been getting several stovepipes with them, and up to a third don't sound supersonic. Previous lots were very zippy, very reliable, and 100% supersonic.
And this year there was one lot (1AV592) that gave a LOT of misfires--seemed to be a problem with the brass being either too thick or too hard, because they'd give good performance in guns that had a hella firing pin strike but balked in others.
I shoot a lot of those things just because they're so cheap. I especially like them in handguns. They're very clean, too.
I'm liking Remington Golden Bullets more and more. Several of my guns won't run reliably on anything else, and in others they are very, very accurate.
At my range, the mis-fire boxes always have a lot of .22's in them.
Remington leads all the others in numbers with Winchester in 2nd.
Federals would be in 3rd place with CCI's last of all. In fact, hardly ever find a CCI.
In my own case,Remingtons lead the way and also seem to find a lot of oversize rds. in the bulk packs.
In my Ciener 1911 kit the Remington's will not chamber sometimes. Even if you push the slide forward.
Quote from: ken grant on December 06, 2007, 05:34:00 PM
At my range, the mis-fire boxes always have a lot of .22's in them.
Remington leads all the others in numbers with Winchester in 2nd.
Federals would be in 3rd place with CCI's last of all. In fact, hardly ever find a CCI.
In my own case,Remingtons lead the way and also seem to find a lot of oversize rds. in the bulk packs.
In my Ciener 1911 kit the Remington's will not chamber sometimes. Even if you push the slide forward.
Remember, some of those numbers are based on the amount of them used.
Snake, I agree that quality is spotty on the cheaper stuff.
Worst stuff I've yet come across was some Federal Auto Match from Wal-Mart (350 rd box). Way too many misfires and malfs in the 10/22's, and that stuff is GREASY. I won't use any more of it due to the grease issues, and I don't think it was all that much better than the regular bulk Federal (55 rd box) that was cheaper.
Quote from: Nickle on December 06, 2007, 05:44:21 PM
Snake, I agree that quality is spotty on the cheaper stuff.
I wouldn't really call it "spotty," which means to me that you never really know what you're gonna get. MOST of the bulk ammo (and I shot 26K of it this year alone) is pretty consistent, but there is an occasional bad lot that gets through. I pity the guy who buys one box of that stuff as his FIRST box of that ammo, he's always going to think it's all junk.
If this year's Fed Bulks weren't quite as good as the stuff I shot in 2004-2006, I'll have to say that this year's Remington GBs were much, much BETTER than the 2005 and 2006 stuff.
I have been shooting .22's for the better part of my life. Started at 7 and am now 70.
In all that time I have never seen misfires like we have today.
In fact, if you had a misfire in the past, that was unusual and a rare thing.Now it a common thing , everyone expects it and talks about what brand gives less.
Today we are supposed to have better equipment,powder,priming and etc., Why all the misfires?
This seems like the same problems that are going on in the 1911 field. NIB and won't work properly and most expect it .
Snake45,
Thanks for the info. Good job.
I agree about the Win. DynaPoints. They've been my favorite since I discovered them several years ago. (Reliable, accurate, and clean.)
The local Wal Mart used to carry 'em, but now I get 'em from Midway. They work well in my Ruger 22/45 pistol and my 10/22.
They also make clean/quick kills on cottontails (I smoke 'em - then I smoke 'em ;)) - much better than solid points.
I need to shoot (anything) more as I've not had the misfire problems to the extent reported here. I've chosen my ammo based on accuracy in my rifle/pistol.
Has anyone done a test with their new "lighter" spring kits vs. the original springs to see if the misfire rate is different? One difference between now 40 years ago was folks usually learned to shoot what they had in spite of the triggers. Just wondering.
Oh yeah, I buy old used Colts, they work and I don't think they wear out.
As to .22 misfires, I've come to the conclusion that at least 50% of the time, they're a GUN problem, not an ammo problem. The trick is knowing which is which. (I shoot several different .22s, both rifle and pistol, so it's not too hard for me to figure out whether it's the gun or the ammo that's causing them. It's harder when you're only working with one or two different guns.)
Maybe I should start a thread on that sometime.
Snake, agree again on the misfires/malfs usually being a gun issue.
Problem with the Auto Match was that I ran it through several 10/22's, and they all had troubles with it. I've got 6 10/22's currently, most of them donated (as RWVA Trainer Rifles), 4 less than a year old, the other 2 slightly older, but in excellent condition. The greasyness alone is enough for me to avoid further use, as when the rifle is fired, that grease isn't all going downrange or staying on the ejected case. And that slone will eventually cause malfunctions, after a few hundred rounds.
I think I may try it in the bolt gun to see just how accurate it really is.
My Wally's doesn't carry the AutoMatch, so I've never tried them, but I've read many, many favorable comments on their accuracy at RFC. Don't recall any complaints about grease on them, though. Perhaps you got an atypical batch.
I can tell you that if I say the grease is really thick, you can bank on it being THICK, as I'm not known for nitpicking stuff to death, and I do know that .22 ammo is supposed to be greased (many folks don't know that).
Seems like we got about 5 to 10% malfs or misfires with it, and I just had the shooter switch to the regular Federal.
Could have been a crappy batch that they sold cheap to Wally World, too.
The reason we're seeing some "less than stellar" .22 ammo these days, is way back in the day, the ammo makers didn't sell off their bad lots to the big box stores. Today, they do exactly that.
So, expect that bulk ammo you're buying to be less than great. You want really good ammo, you WILL pay for it.
For me, the bulk ammo is "good enough" for most work, and that suits me fine. Not like we're shooting matches here, we're just training with a "rack grade" rifle with "issue" ammo, and a slightly tweaked (as in the basics) 10/22 and bulk ammo is pretty close to that.
Interesting. I ran a search for the words "grease" and "greasy" in the .22 Ammo forum of RFC and couldn't find any mention or postings of the Fed Auto Match being greasy. So maybe you did get a bad or atypical batch.
Here's a good thread on the AMs, where most people seem to have had positive accuracy experiences with them:
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186025&highlight=greasy
As I said, I've never shot any so I can't say one way or the other. Next time I run across any, I'd like to try them in three or four of my bolt actions.
My 22s love automatch. It shoots almost as well as Wolf Match Target is my Green Mountain barreled 10/22. Its all I feed my MKII and it loves it as well.
I have heard good things about Winchester Dynapoints and I think I will try it next. I hear it is awsome in suppressed weapons.
BTW I shoot Automatch regularly and it is not lubricated (greasy)
Wold match target on the other hand is very heavily lubed.
I appologize if it has already been mentioned in a thread, but what .22 ammo goes bang every time. Accuracy is nice too, but if you are doing a rapid fire string and the rounds will not go off, it just doesn't matter. I was zeroing in my LTR and I had missfire from Remington Golden jacketed hollowpoints nearly 1 in each magazine.
Every rifle has it's preferences, but here's a link with three pages of experiences:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=371.msg3069#msg3069
Thank You! That is what I was looking for. For some reason I didn't see that thread while doing a search. This thread can be locked now if someone wants to.
fepowered,
You must also understand that, due to the way rimfire ammo is constructed, it will NEVER be as dependable as centerfire ammo.
The priming compound has to hit a happy medium between flowing and sticking in place when made. Then it is dropped into the center of the base of the rimfire case and SPUN to throw the priming compound into the rim via centripetal force.
There can be small gaps in the priming compound and the way the rifle and firing pin are designed can make a great difference in how the ammo fires. Ammo can be near 100% in one gun and only 75 % or 80% in another just due to design features.
One problem we saw again and again when we had a shop open was Ruger 10/22s and Ruger Semi-auto pistols and Remington Thunderbolt (loss leader) .22 ammo. Switch to any other ammo and one of the mentioned firearms running 80% or 85% on Thunderbolt would go to 99.99% on the new ammo.
I have also seen several Rossi pumps and Henry Lever guns that DID NOT LIKE ANY REMINGTON ammo, leaving fired cases in the chamber, refusing to extract, but working 99.99% with Federal, CCI, Winchester and other brands of ammo. This was apparently due to the shape of their extractors versus the shape of the cartridge case head not letting the extractor grip properly.
It seems like they can make good rimfire ammo or cheap rimfire ammo but good, cheap rimfire ammo doesn't seem to exist.
Buckshot
Fepowered (Iron-powered?? Is that a reference to First Lensman by E. E. Smith?),
I had a problem with my 10/22 last year and misfires. Stripped it down and checked out the firing pin and discovered that it'd been shot so much that it had gotten shorter. (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/smilies/ohlord.gif) One new firing pin later and no more problems (or very little, anyway) with duds.
So if your rifle, whatever it is, still has problems, you may want to do a detail cleaning on it and inspect the hammer/firing pin/trigger assembly just to be sure it's not the rifle.
Good replies and way to get this fella to the right post and the right answers. ;) Chalk this up to a successful application of team work to get a new fella the good info and a very good redirect to an established thread on this subject. ;D
I see this thread just got referenced today, so thought I'd do a brief update on the results in the link I posted earlier.
Federal Walmart Bulk used to be very consistent and reliable ammo. That hasn't been true this year. I've shot four or five different lots of the stuff (bought this spring) and no two are the same. One lot will be not only reliable and consistent, but very hot to boot. The next lot will produce three or four different sounds, with some rounds not developing enough power to cycle a 10/22 action. One box I shot today was mostly hot, but one round in every 12 or 15 or 20 would be clearly underpowered. And out of the @ 1200 rounds I shot today, I had eight complete duds--NO primer in them at all. That's VERY unusual for Fed Bulk.
If you run across a lot of this stuff that runs well in your gun, run back to Wally's and buy all of that lot they have on hand. This is still the cheapest .22 ammo available, and I still use a lot of it (especially in handguns).
Remington Golden Bullets, on the other hand, seem to be improving in quality. When I first shot them in 2005, they would make four different sounds. Nearly all the ones I bought last year would make the same sound--and it was pretty zippy. This stuff will run a couple of my guns that nothing else will. But they had a very predictable 1-2% complete dud rate. I've only fired a few hundred 2008 production Rem GBs but I don't recall a single dud yet. It's $2 a box (550) more than the Fed Bulks, but in some of my guns, it's definitely worth it.
Snake, I've had the opposite experience with the Federal bulk packs... that's the ONLY thing I shoot in my Savage, and out of 450-500 rounds this weekend, I only had one FTF, and groups were dynamite. Same results last week at the range, different lot number.
I hope it stays consistently decent though; I've got about two cases stocked up!
I hit another GOOD batch of Fed Bulk yesterday. I shot somewhere around 3000-3500 of them this weekend (I fired over 4K but somewhere around 700 were Rem GBs) and just had the one good, hot lot. Two boxes were so "soft" they regularly stovepiped in a 10/22 and I learned NOT to shoot them in my DPMS because they wouldn't run the bolt back far enough to recock the hammer, which would then follow down and sometimes "double" the next round. Several other boxes would run the 10/22 just fine but wouldn't run my Ciener 1911. And so on.
I've been shooting "last in first out," which means all the lots I shot this weekend were the latest stuff I've bought (within the last six weeks). In fact, I'd never even taken it out of the trunk of my car. I still have a bunch of the stuff I bought last year, and even quite a bit in the old blue box bought before THAT. I'm definitely gonna shoot up all this 2008 junk FIRST.
As I said, if you find a lot number of new Fed Bulk that works for you, get back over there and see if they have any more of it.
"Federal bulk box: Walmart ammo, right now about $10 for 550 rounds. Good stuff, IMO. Still a little bit of vertical stringing,"
I had that happen all last weekend. I thought it was not controling my breathing, but maybe it was the ammo.
Quote from: B964 on May 28, 2008, 01:29:09 PM
"Federal bulk box: Walmart ammo, right now about $10 for 550 rounds. Good stuff, IMO. Still a little bit of vertical stringing,"
I had that happen all last weekend. I thought it was not controling my breathing, but maybe it was the ammo.
Very possible. One lot I shot last weekend was giving at least two distinct sounds, one of them very soft. I didn't bench them for accuracy but I wouldn't be surprised to see a half-inch vertical stringing on those at 50 yards--maybe even at 25.
I couldn't get the WalleyWorld Federal bulk to group at all in my 10/22 (actually AMT25/22). Very inconsistent and a lot of vertical stringing.
I tried a few other brands, and believe it or not, the best shooting stuff in my 10/22 with a plain old Volquartzen 0.920 barrel is the Aguila Super Extra 40gr copper plated.
After a little bedding work I was able to shoot a nice 0.080" 25yd 5 shot group off the bench paying careful attention to the wind (no flags - only feel). This isn't Benchrest level of accuracy (~0.32MOA), but I am very happy with it coming from my little autochucker. I now have this target pasted to my Appleseed ammo can to remind me that it isn't the rifle, it is the person pulling the trigger that accounts for the problems.
I will have to pull out my can of "good stuff" (Ely 10x, match, club match, rifle match, Lapua match, etc) and try them to see how they shoot now, but for the price I'm pleased as punch with the Aguila.
BTW my "bedding" consisted of a thin piece of cardboard (not corrugated) ~1.4" x 2.5" placed in the barrel channel just in front of the barrel/reciever block free floating the barrel. This also removed the 45° stringing I used to get with sling tension. This made much more difference than did most of the different ammo that I tried - FWIW.
Cheers
When I first started with 10/22s I bought a bunch of the "target" stuff, Eley, etc. It was all just ok, then I went back to my standard from another lifetime ago, Rem standard velocity. It shot like a dream, serious better than everything else, but it is a tad expensive. Tried Federals, hummm, in that gun some pretty regular feeding/extracting issues though when I tried a borrowed box of Fed match it helped alot and the accuracy was very close to Rem standards. In looking at lots of 10/22s now it seems that with Federals there are more feeding/extraction issues on Sunday morning than with other brands--just an issue of a extra good cleaning on Saturday night
alright guys, i wanna know if it's just my gun or if this is true in general.
i recently bought some 22WMR rounds form CCI. they have a nickle plated case and utelize a copper version of the V-max bullet. and i have been getting PHENOMINAL results out of my savage-anchultz @ 100 yards using only a little $8.00 3-9 variable scope, i dont really know. they could just shoot well from my gun, but for the price of picking up a box, i still recomend that u guys give them a try. b/c my results have been O0 !!!
Biggest problem I see happening with .22 ammo has been recent MAJOR shortages in supply of it everywhere for over a month now (since late NOV). :(
All area WalMarts are out of almost all .22, absolutely have not had any "bricks" of it except one case each that 3 stores I monitor regularly received, and that case of Bricks was sold out in hours the day they got it (some people have sales clerks who are 'buddies' give them a ring and they go get most of it). People are seeing a shortage in .22 and are buying up several to 10 bricks or more thereby taking all of it off the shelves. This is a VERY SERIOUS CONCERN FOR our 2009 AS plans, in my humble opinion. !@#)
I have been MONITORING AMMO sales in area stores and most Major Internet Suppliers since back last Spring with a focus on both supply availability and price hikes. Since the run starting right after the NOV election, this has most definitely become a Major Issue. ALL ammo suppliers have sold out, have a very rough time getting any replacement merchandise to sell, have a tremendous customer demand for it, but don't get much replacement ammo to sell or else have it gobbled up almost immediately when they get some in. :'(
If we have people not wanting to waste their battle rifle ammo due to shortages and cost, and now are going to see this happen also to .22 ammo, then WE DO have a problem. We cannot use Paint Ball ammo on an AS, but we might have to go to Air Rifles/pellet guns. :~
I am really worried that we have already been seeing centerfire ammo disappear for the most part and prices going up on it when it is available; then also seeing the major Internet suppliers and all my area gun stores run out of the common stuff we mostly use; and NOW, it's even the .22 cal going. If this keeps up, then I am going to, regretfully, predict that we will see a definite decline in AS shooters response because they will not want to burn up their ammo, regardless of caliber, because they cannot be assured of a resupply. I'll be among the first to say that if a man only had 1000 rounds of any ammo and spent 500 at an AS then it would be worth it, because he will be better able to use that last 500 rounds than if he did not attend an AS to learn how to shoot and burned up the entire 1000 rounds as a NON-Rifleman. However, people are people and psychologically they are into "hoarding" ammo due to the shortages happening which are only worsening and expected to worsen even further.
All I am saying is that I really think we have a problem before us that is significant. However, I want others to give some feedback on other "necks of the woods" in the U.S. We need some answers on this. I know we have a lot of 'hunters'/gunowners in my area, but I really think this is Nationwide because the Internet Suppliers are having the same problem. Okay guys, what's up on this?? >:(
Is this a problem in areas of the U.S. besides here in East TN, Southwest Virginia, Southwest NC? It is on the Internet and it is at all our sporting goods, hunting supply, gun shops. They want it in order to sell it. The manufacturers, it seems, are trying to resupply the "pipeline," but that is taking time and running slow. Most Ammo houses/suppliers are not taking Backorders and most are running at least 4 weeks or more behind on filling orders to ship obligated ammo they have already sold.
Anybody else got any observations on this Ammo thing?? BTW, .223 seems to be plentiful. It's the 30-06, 7.62x39, .308 and others which now includes Bricks of .22 that I'm seeing shortages on, as well even common pistol ammo calibers. I sure hope some of you will give us some info on your areas on this. For doing so, you have my sincere thanks in advance. ;D
TnTimberwright :~
The ammo problems will get better after enough people get their stash. We saw the same thing back when our girl hill proposed taxing primers and ammo. Everyone was running around getting ammo and components to hoard.
There are no bricks of .22 ammo at wal-mart here (Bozeman MT) but sportsman's warehouse has a few bricks. The local farm supply store has .22 ammo. Yellowstone gateway sports has .22 ammo.
Could wal-marts shortage have anything to do with the way they insist on low prices from suppliers? Right now it's a sellers market.
I quit buying when wal-mart ran out, after spending about 16 months buying two bricks on payday, every two weeks. You know what Fred says, "buy em cheap,
stack em deep" That was good advice thanks Fred.
I think the panic buying is about over,and it will take some time for dealers to stock up again.Cabela's has winchester ammo on sale right now. 500 rounds in a wooden box,19.99..it was 24.99..200rnds of 5.56 for 79.99,I don't know if that's good or not. They also have 10-22's for 179.99. All this until Jan.18..just a heads up. <:)
Sorry for the slightly off topic post...I really like the CCI .22 mags..,I have a lot of .22 lr stocked up,I don't even know how much.
I always had good accuracy from the remington golden hp. I'm surprised some peeps don't like it..I'm out... ::)
QuoteYou know what Fred says, "buy em cheap, stack em deep" That was good advice thanks Fred.
Actually, Fred didn't come up with the notion - think I read it somewhere, along with "Ammo: currency of the new millinium."
But who could disagree?
About October of 08 I bought a Remington 597. It's one of the Dick's Sporting Goods specials. Bull barrel and a laminated thumbhole stock. Real nice looking rifle. Only problem was it shot 3 to 5 inch groups at 50 yards. I read a lot of the rimfire forums and just couldn't get it to work. Just after Christmas I hit it with the JB paste and took it out. Fired groups of every type of 22lr ammo I could find. The match ammo didn't go any better than the golden bullets. The last type I tried was what I thought was the cheapest, Thunderbolts. It was like shooting a new rifle. It would make a ragged hole at 25 yards. I was about to send it back to Remington. Now I'm buying bricks of Thunderbolts.
bulkhead
Federal Auto-Match is the only ammo so far that works flawlessly in my 10/22's. Most other brands are accurate enough for newbies to shoot Rifleman, but often prone to malfs, especially anything "Bulk". Something to consider in your LTR's.
The 795 eats everything and is more accurate to boot. O0
You really need to buy a couple boxes of every type of .22 ammo you can find and shoot it all. Your rifle will tell you which one it likes the best (reliability and accuracy).
I'm not surprised about the Thunderbolts. My old Ruger Mk1 bull barrel and my Win. M52B love Thunderbolts. My old Ruger 10/22 likes the Rem. Golden Bullets with the Federal bulk stuff from WalMart right behind it.
Shop around and feed your rifle what it likes.
Any opinions on the stuff from the CMP?
All I have shot with my 10/22 is Remington Golden Bullets (550 round bulk) and Federal bulk. The Remington works fine -- I think I've only had one misfire out of about 1 1/2 boxes i've put through the gun. I did notice that some of the shots would be quieter than others, but it didn't seem to affect accuracy at all. It groups just fine, and I have no problem shooting rifleman scores with it on the 25m AQT.
The Federal was terrible in the Ruger -- it would jam very frequently (with the empty case jamming sideways in the bolt). Interestingly enough, the exact opposite happened with my friends, one of whom has a Marlin tube feeder and another that has a .22 AR-15 conversion -- the Federal worked flawlessly (even though it would give you 2 round bursts every now and then out of the AR), and would group nice, but the Remington misfired and jammed like crazy with both of them. Go figure. I guess with .22 the thing to do really is to find what kind of ammo yours likes (preferably by shooting your friends' ammo, hehe), and sticking to it.
I recently bought a few 500 round boxes of CCI (I'm not sure what kind, whatever one they sell in bulk)... i paid a little more for it at $25/box, but I have yet to try it. we'll see how it shoots in everybody's weapons at the Badlands Appleseed this weekend. I mainly just bought it up because OK is getting hit by the ammo shortage bigtime (no wal mart around here has had bulk .22 for a long time)... i thought that CCI was the only bulk stuff i might see for a while (it was at a little out-of-the-way gun shop), but later that day I went to the Bass Pro Shop and they had plenty of bulk Remington gold bullets in stock. So of course I bought a couple boxes of them too. :)
Quote from: eaglescouter on March 02, 2009, 10:12:37 PM
Any opinions on the stuff from the CMP?
per thier site delivery time in excess of 100 days
I was out shopping for .22 for the April Appleseed and I saw a CCI brand labeled "CB LONG: Conical Ball." It's 29 grain and 710 fps. When I goggle "conical bullets" I get hits for muzzle loading rounds. So I thought I'd ask here, as I am quite sure someone knows what, if any, advantage there is to conical bullets in .22 ammunition.
Mogs
Magget, from the FPS it appears that you have found a very low power round. My bb gun does 700 fps, and 1,000 fps is not uncommon in good pellet rifles. The projectile is also 3/4 of the normal weight.
But the only way to know for sure is to buy a small box and see how they perform in your rifle at the distance you shoot.
I'm pretty sure that would fail to eject in any of my 10-22s
Excellent point BaldDragn, this low powered ammo is very likely to fail to cycle the action of a semi auto.
Might work in a bolt gun tho.
Or it could make your semi auto into a bolt gun by forcing you to manually cycle the action with each shot.
22 CB ammo goes back to the earliest days of the 22 rimfire round. Originallly a blackpowder round, the current CB loadings may or may not even use gun powder for the propellent - the force of the primer can be sufficient to launch the bullet. 22 short, 22 long, and 22 long rifle ammo were progressive developments of the 22 CB round. You'll be much happier with 22 long rifle for Appleseeding.
SamD turned us on to Blazer 22. O0 I would of never considered Blazer as it doesn't show up here locally.
Seems that Blazer 22 works great in dirty guns that start to malf. There is more oomph in Blazer to keep that bolt going.
On day 2 when guns get hot and dirty, as in back to back AQT's, the last thing shooters or instructors want is a malfy rifle.
Seems nobody cleans their rifle when they go home, even though we tell em' :(....we do clean our LTR's though. :)
At the last AS we gave a few students Blazer ammo. Works better in tighter chambers too.
Problem solved. Stuff works! We have since ordered a few cases.
I will let SamD chime in how he discovered this wonder ammo.
In Feb I needed to buy a couple of bricks. Nothing available locally. went to Las Cruces the next day and couldn't find any there either.
Checked with all of my suppliers that evening and the only one that had ANY 22 LR available for less that $235 a box was Zanders in Baldwin Ill. They had Blazer, I ordered a case. delivered 3 days later. I tested it. SD from mt 795 was 12 fps which is not too shoddy. Cycled well, kept 2 min groups without special effort so I bought 2 more cases. Told TaosGlock and he got some along with a couple others. It has proven accurate and reliable in everything I have tried and and like TaosGlock said it will cycle nasty rifles.
A report on ammo availability, (5 minutes ago)
The only thing Zanders has in stock right now is CCI Select 100 packs at an outrageous price.
Sport South, the biggest jobber of firearms and ammo in the country has
Federal 22lr shot
" Gold Medal
Fiocchi Super Match
Rem CB Longs
Various Ely Match
RWS Match
RWS Subsonic Match
WW 22lr shot
Davidsons has ZIPPO
and that is it folks.
The shelves are bare.
No conspiracy either people.
When our current administration came on board people feared and hoarded.
Can't say why people have fear like that :o , but they do. :-[
Basically 6-7 months of ammunition and reloading components fled the shelves in 2 months based on fear and greed.
Last time it happened, it was primers back in the 80's.
Then, the manufacturers bought up raw material and expanded plant and people to meet what they thought of as "demand". When the heavy sales did not continue, many went bankrupt, several went out of business. Based on that experience, they are NOT going to expand production this time. Expect a sluggish supply as goods come back on the market, are snapped up by those still in fear. As the market gets saturated supplies will go up but it will take time. My jobbers do not expect to be able to meet demand until early fall.
Instructors,
You best emphasize dry fire and keep to quality shooting. High round counts for the sake of shooting should NEVER even come to mind. Remind your students, every round expended must have purpose. It should count like it was the last round in the world. Ammo is too valuable to waste with sloppy shooting. Atticus pointed that out to us in Raton last year. It bears repeating. Every shot by the numbers, carefully and with a purpose. Get the most from your ammo budget. O0
Sam
CCI CB Report: I opted to fire them in my pistol first. Good idea. They turned my semi-auto pistol in a single shot so I decided not to even try them in my 10/22. Must say, though, they were really, really, quiet. I thought I was firing a BB gun or something. And when I could get them to fire, they made a nice group.
Mogs
Quote from: Mogget on April 04, 2009, 06:35:12 PM
Must say, though, they were really, really, quiet.
That was my first thought, at well under 1000 fps they are well below subsonic. It would be a good round of choice if noise was more of an issue than power.
I put some (20-30) CCI CB's through my 10/22 a while back - the action seemed to make more noise than the detonation (since then I've put in a buffer - may want to try it again.)
They didn't cycle of course.
Also I had feed problems - I couldn't find CB's in LR so I was running .22 longs - they didn't strip off correctly all the time.
No problem making 25 yards though (or 50 either.)
Remington makes a subsonic .22 LR... its a little louder than a CB cap, but it doesn't have the supersonic crack that makes most of the noise. They're pretty cheap too... i just picked up 300 rounds of it at Bass Pro for $20. Definite in-town squirrel hunting munitions!
Also, I went to an Appleseed last month with a few friends who all had different .22s, and here is our experience: The Remington Golden Bullets worked well in 10/22s and Remington 597s... very few misfires... but it sucked in the AR conversion and the Marlin tube feed. The Federal Bulk worked really well in the Marlin and worked OK in the AR conversion, and sucked in the 10/22.
By far the best ammo we found was the Blazer. It worked great in everybody's rifle, and grouped well. Its hard to find around here, and its a little more than the other stuff (I think I paid $25 for a box of 525), but its good stuff if you can get it. It has a nice slick black coating on the bullets too, unlike the solid lead federals and that gold dust crap that gets all over your fingers (and probably all up in your action) with golden bullets. definitely some clean-shooting stuff. I bet it doesn't clog the gas ports on AR conversions as bad as the other stuff.
I have been shooting a lot of the Winchester Super X HV loading lately. My 10/22 seems to like it a lot, and through the roughly 1500 rounds Ive sent through it, Ive had 2-3 that wouldnt go boom. Im getting them for about $30 per 500.
Just finished another northeast high-round-count Appleseed (Throop NY), and the clear favorite was the Federal bulk 550 with the Winchester bulk 333 being a close second. Few malfunctions or duds with either. A few bricks of Thunderbolt showed the usual (in my experience) results - fouling, FTF, duds, FTEs. Another couple bricks of Remington Golden Bullet, which I'd not seen used before, had similar results as the Thunderbolts, with perhaps a few less FTFs due to the plating instead of bare lead.
Other forums I frequent have been showing some issues with Remington .22 lately, including a few out-of-battery fires and/or slamfires. Rumor - and I stress that this is only conjecture - is that a batch of bad brass went through with thinner-than-spec primer rims that are crushing and igniting when being stripped from mags.
Just a reminder to make sure everyone is using their eyes and ears...
Guess what? Maybe it's not the ammo!!
This weekend (Stinson, WV Appleseed) we had a family on my end of the line with two modern semi-auto .22's and an old Remington model 41 (single shot bolt action antique). The son was using the old Remington most of the day and switched over to his mom's newer rifle late in the afternoon. He was in the midst of clearing a dud when I walked up to see if he needed help with the "new" rifle. I looked at the dud after he dropped it on the mat and saw the mark on the rim. A few minutes later he had another one. They were all three shooting from a brick of Remington ammo. I asked him if he'd been having trouble with that ammo all day and he told me "no", while using the old bolt action he had not had a single misfire.
Next time I run into a batch of "bad" .22 ammo I'm going to pull that brick aside and try it in one of my old bolt action .22's and see if the issue persists with the antique rifles, too, of it just happens with our "modern marvels".
Just for info, your mileage may vary.
Has anyone here shot any of the Centurion HV ammo? My local gun shop had some, I bought 1,000 rounds for $40+ tax. I did some looking around by searching it and about all I could come up with is that it is made in Mexico by Aguila. I hope to test it next it next to my Winchester Super X HV this weekend.
A friend shot a couple of hundred rounds though my 10/22 Garand with no problems, it grouped well with no miss feeds or miss fires. The Centurion was a little less than $20.00 per brick. I had never seen this brand before, I'm going back for more.
Ammo. This has been a big issue with me at previous Appleseed shoots. Ain't nothing like getting good shots and then having some failures that keep you from getting a 210. I haven't shot 22's much in my life until recently. Just got my own 22 Ruger a few weeks ago. Used a lot of loaners at two previous Appleseeds and had nothing but problems while using the Federal I had bought with me.
After I got my Ruger I got a few rounds of just about every type of 22 known to man from a friend and tried them all. What did I see? Well, older Winchester (and I mean old) and Remington worked very good. Winchester was most accurate with very few flyers. Federal, well it depends on which batch it is. Some good, some very bad. I saw some ammo where I would have a good group and then a round about 2 to 3 inches off the others. I went to bench rest to eliminate wobble and the same thing would happen.
It appears that quality control is very lacking these days according to some old timers that have done a lot more 22 shooting than I have.
The Aguila shot very well for me. Winchester DynaPoint was the best, but I never see it around. I had dug up an old box about 8-10 years old. CCI is good stuff but who can afford it. CCI does make the Blazer brand which I got for $20 for 500. I used this last week. Only one malfunction out of 500 and the flyers were probably due to me.
What is worse is that there is a limited selection to choose from in my area. You basically get whatever the store has in stock. I guess it boils down to is get what you can and do the best you can.
What is around, isn't a lot right now. About a month ago I was really looking for just a brick to test a new rifle, and they just weren't lying around waiting for my money. In about four days I found three different types, haven't fired them enough to recommend anything, but do stock up with what works best for your rifle, or the next surge at the counters is going to leave you wishing you had taken up archery.
howdy
Have a Marlin 795 and it really gets along with Federal Lightning in the 50 round boxes. It is 1.47 a box of 50 at WM when you can get it, as is typical. Had 2 stovepipes in maybe 600 rounds in a BFN Marlin, so it does OK in a new rifle. Also the Winchester HP in the 333 bulk pack from WM did very well, about the same results. About 15 bucks I think. Both shoot raagged holes. :)
I tend to notice the FTE's incidentally, I haven't done a documented study.
I have some federal in a 550 bulk I haven't tried yet. Bought it because they were out of the Lightning.
The 795 did cycle better than my 10/22 with Rem Thunderbolt, not as good as the Fed or Win though. My 10/22 is a finicky eater...
FYI, I did get a case of the CMP stuff, (Aguila), and it shot clean and well.
My rifle, (10/22), did not group as well with it as it does with it's "prefered" ammo, but it easily shot well within the 4 moa we require with no problems or malfs.
Another 10/22 on the same line liked the CMP stuff better than its formerly prefered stuff, so as we all know, feed your rifle what it likes best!
If you can still get the stuff from CMP I'd say it was worth the wait. The squirrels haven't noticed a difference. ^-^ JB
Here to report that the shooter with me used up most of a 550 Round Federal Value Pack at the Hinckley, MN AS - had a 3 or 4 odd sounding/low power rounds that in one case managed to get the slug to the paper, but just dented the paper and didn't cycle the bolt. My 550 rd box didn't give as many problems.
Interestingly, after getting home we have been working with CCI mini mag and so far no problems at all and the groups have tightened noticeably. Could be other factors involved, but we'll keep working w CCI ammo for awhile and see how performance holds out over a couple bricks.
I have had the best luck with the Federal 550 rd bricks from Wal Mart. I go through boxes of these without a malfunction of any kind in my 10/22. I have been to Appleseeds where shooters were going to leave early because they were out of ammo. These are cheap enough that I can give them a handfull to finish the weekend, and I have never had any complaints that it didn't work. every pay day I buy a couple of bricks if it is in stock. This is the only ammo I stock in 22LR.
Stay away from the Winchester Super X bulk packs. Out of a brick of those, I get several Failure to feeds and at least a dozen failure to fire. This isn't just in my 10/22, but in my old Winchester pump 22 and my MKI pistol. I have had mixed results with CCI and Remington.
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9031&dir=18|831
Found some .22LR online, Federal American Eagle 22 LR HV 38 Grain Plated HP $18.50 for 400 rounds. These copper plated hollowpoints fed well in both my .22 conversion AR and my 10/22 using factory mags. At the last Appleseed, the AR conversion saw 2 failure to fire with what I belive to be light hits. The 10/22 had zero failure to fire. This ammunition cycles the conversion kit and the 10/22 fine. I also have a .22 conversion kit for a pistol and this ammo does have trouble in my pistol conversion kit, not enough umph for the shorter barrel. The best groups from both rifles was about 1/2" on the green AQTs so they seem to be fairly consistant.
This ammo had failure to feeds using aftermarket bannana magazine in my 10/22. But then again, the bannana magazines for my 10/22 fail on all hollowpoint ammunition so far.
Ladies and Gentlemen:
FYI current (April, 2010) Cheaper Than Dirt catalog lists CCI Blazer 40 grain (AMM-041) @ $16.69/500, and Federal 40 grain (AMM-081) @ $16.24/500. Their price for Aguila .22 ($29.49/500) is pretty much the same as the CMP is asking, without the 6-12 month wait...
'Course, back in the day I used to drive to Seneca Military Depot and pick up 30-50K of Winchester white box .22 for...wait for it...FREE for my H.S. team...year after year...unreal.
CMP also listing Service grade M1 carbines (Winchester = $675, Standard Products = $575) for first time in several months...and has .30 carbine ammunition as well as the .30-06.
Excelsior,
nyrasgt
(mad)
I haven't seen anyone mention this ammo, so here goes:
Russian "Junior" .22!
It was available a few years ago in cases of 6000 for @$100, so you might still see some on the firing line. Comes in a wooden crate. Bricks packed in cream-colored, plastic-coated paper with a green-ish label. 50 Rd boxes are light green/aqua colored with the silhouette of a chicken on the box! <--my favorite feature!
It's a steel case, with a "V" head stamp. Bullets very heavily lubricated. I believe, but am not certain, that it's a 36-grain bullet.
(http://www.aubruin.com/photos/Ammo/Russian%20Junior%2022LR/Russian%20JR%2022LR%205.jpg)
Cheap. Dirty. Very low velocity. It also had a tendency to stick in the chamber of my rifle if left in the sun.
In the sun, I had at least one extraction failure per magazine, about a 10% failure rate. Several required a screwdriver to pry out of the chamber. When I moved to the shade, I had two extraction failures total. About 2%. I believe that those can be accounted for by the steel case. The extractor cannot "bite" into it like it can a brass case. The steel case may be thinner and expand more in the chamber as well. Neither of extraction failures in the shade required more than re-closing the bolt hard and re-opening it hard to extract.
Why put up with this? Well, I have one of those 6000 round cases
AND:
It is uncannily accurate in my 77/22! It will easily group under 2 MOA. I also cannot recall having had a single failure to fire.
Although it has always functioned well in all the 10/22's I've tried it in; I didn't shot it all day, and it is extremely dirty ammo. So fouling could become an issue. Also, if it began to stick in the chamber of a 10/22 it would very likely require a cleaning rod to push out the spent casing from the muzzle end. There's just not enough room/leverage for a screwdriver blade in the ejection port. That said, my 77/22 has a Green Mountain barrel and it's chamber may be a little tighter than factory.
Apparently, this stuff is now collectible (?) so prices have risen, but if you see some cheap don't be afraid to give it a try!
.22's are notorious for being picky about their ammo. I have targeted in excess of over 100 different .22 pistols, rifles, and revolvers over the last 30 years. I have fired pretty much every domestic brand of ammo that has been available. I came to understand that each gun is an individual. One gun may love a particular brand of ammo and the very next serial number of the same gun may hate it. The reasons for this is that each gun is unique in individual tolerances, bearing surfaces, set-up, ecetera. The trick is to match the ammo to the gun. Each brand of ammo has a slightly different velocity, pressure curve shape, etc. This effects accuracy and cycling reliability for autoloaders. The trick is to test several different brands of ammo in each gun on paper. Accuracy can vary wildly. Chances are there are one or more brands that are a good combination of accuracy and reliable function. Just because the current gun you are using doesn't care for a particular brand of ammo doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the ammo. It just means your gun doesn't like it. Save the offending ammo for your next gun or trade it off to a buddy whose gun loves it. If you read all the posts prior to mine you will see one person praise a particular brand of ammo only to be followed by a later poster saying he would never buy that brand again. You must match the ammo to the gun. The best brand of ammo is the brand your individual gun likes. This is true of all guns, but especially .22's. Centerfire Handloaders search for this sweet spot all the time by manipulating the variables of cases, powders, bullets, primers, overall lengths, etc. Unfortunately we can't handload .22's so you must try different brands looking for the perfect combo. Hope this helps some .22 newbies.
.220swift has it right. Every gun is different and has "likes/dislikes" of it's own.
I've talked with my Dad about this subject many times. While he agrees that some ammo these days is more prone to misfires he says things were different when he was younger.
Back in those days (before/during WW2 for ammo with a rifle made earlier that that) he says it was all pretty much the same. They hunted for meat to feed the family. The .22 they had belonged to his Dad (a single shot Western Field bolt action) was used to take squirrels, rabbits, grouse, red-squirrels (not fox squirrels but a smaller than gray squirrels type animal that lives in those mountains - bigger than a chipmunk but smaller than a gray squirrel), groundhogs, possums and raccoons. They shot them in the head so they didn't mess up the meat. Headshots and the need to feed the family (they had chickens but they were mostly for eggs).
It was a couple mile walk to town to buy ammo so the variety was limited to whatever was available in the hardware store or company store at the time and it had to work. According to Dad they bought and used it all and didn't really see a difference.
So, is it ammo that has changed? Or the rifles? Some time I'm goiing to break out my old M67 Winchester and take it to the range with Winchester, Federal and Remington ammo and see what happens.
Back then no ammo was wasted checking group size.
Get close, and one round in the head was a bullseye!
I always go down the ammo aisle at Wally World when shopping there.
Today, Federal bulk pack 550 rounds was 18.97. It has been pretty consistently 15.47 for about a year or two now; before that it was 13.17.
I used to pick up one about every trip to the Wonderful World of Wally. Now, it's about every three trips.
TE
Odd as it may seem to many, or just a few the (IDEA) is its NOT a equipment race. A standard 10-22 LTR, with good standard ammo will shoot a Riflemans score if the user has made the effort to listen and apply the information that is given...... There is no magic trick geardo needed just a teachable attitude and the desire to shoot better.. FWIW Pappy
I noticed the increase at Wally World re: the 550 Federal Bulk pack.
My 10/22 likes these the best and absolutely hates the Remington Golden "wax balls."
Fouls my rifle up in no time.
+1 on the Remington GB, and the Thunderbolts are no better. The only good thing that can be said about Rem ammo is you get practice in dealing with misfeeds, stovepipes, and duds.
Anecdotally, has anyone else noticed when shooters are struggling with feed/eject/duds, especially day one, the ammo is remmington headstamp?
It's too bad the the Wally-World Federal bulk price is up, but it is still a bargin relative to other 22 out there (just swing by Gander) Anyhow, I'm glad to see it stocked up; I was at Wallyworld today and they had no fewer than 15 boxes. (I'm still wondering why I didn't buy it all.)
For those of you that are finding it be thankful.
I have not seen Federal Bulk Pack on a Wally World shelf for over a year.
Buy a little of what ever you find that your rifle likes when ever you find it. You may never know when you see it again.
Baring any Government "Stimulus" Federal Bulk Pack will be close to or over $20 a box in 2011 with the annual manufacturer price increase
Since you can't reload it, your only protection against future price increases and scarcity it to invest in some inventory to support your practice.
For father's day, another Rifleman and I went out to do a WallyWorld ammo test. That is, what is the best of the cheap ammo. So we tested ammo through a bolt .22 and a semi Savage .22 using 1" squares. First we shot 40 rounds out, then followed with another 40 rounds into a square of each brand. The theory being that the lube would be cleaned out using the 40 non-test rounds in between each test. Here are the brands and how they stacked up:
Cheap Ammo | | Bullet | Bullet | Bullet | Bullet | Power | Relative | Street | Country Of | |
Manufacturer | Description | Weight | Style | Jacket | Core | in fps | Velocity | Price | Origin | Notes |
Federal | Bulk Federal Blue Box 500rds 710F | 40 | Round Nose | Copper | Lead | | Med. | $6.40 | USA | Fed fine, untested accuracy |
Remington | Bulk High Velocity 550 Rnds | 36 | Hollow Point | Plated | Lead | 1280 | Med. | $4.17 | USA | Worst perf, some duds |
Federal | Bulk AutoMatch Target Grade, 325 rnds | 40 | Round Nose | Copper | Lead | 1200 | Med. | $4.45 | USA | Better, not great |
CCI/Speer | Blazer, 50 rnd boxes | 40 | Round Nose | | Lead | | Med. | | USA | Better, not great |
CCI | Mini-Mag | 40 | Round Nose | Copper | Lead | 1235 | Med. | $5.67 | USA | Best of tested |
The Savage holds the bolt back after the last round, which throws the last round to the side consistently. The Marlin bolt gun's groups were consistently better. The intention was to test 40gr ammo only, but the Remington bulk stuff is so common, that we tested that too. The Remington bulk is hollow point which can add to a feed problem if a magazine is starting to get gummed up.
How did you arrive at the prices? Are they per box (in which case I want to buy a CASE of the federal wherever you are!!) or per 50 rounds? 'Cause it's my experience that the CCI Minimags are usually pretty pricey and the Federal are, around here, about $18.47/550 round box, or about $1.67 for 50 rounds.
Also... any data on accuracy?
I noticed something this weekend when we were up in the "hills" shooting.
I've had great results with Remington Golden Bullets bought 2 or 3 years ago. I bought some more 550 round boxes awhile back and that stuff is not the same .22 ammo. The new stuff jams up in my old Ruger Mk1 bull barrel (that always shot everything) and in the .22 conversion kits in the AR15's as well as giving us quite a few dud rounds.
The older stuff I have has a "U" on the bottom of the case (I always assumed the upper case U stood for UMC, the old Union Metallic Cartridge name used by Remington many years ago.) The newer stuff that isn't working out has "Rem" on the bottom of the case.
From now on, before I buy Remington ammo, I'll have to ask the clerk to let me open up the box and see what is stamped on the bottom of the cases.
Oh yeah, my almost 30 year old Remington Thunderbolts still feed, shoot and eject great and are still as accurate as ever. However, after this weekend the supply has deteriorated somewhat. :)
Some years back - like 3 or 4, I think - I noticed that the Remington bulk stuff had a different shape to the bullet. What used to feed flawlessly in my Ruger Mark I, now jammed on EVERY shot. The ogive had changed - it was a different curve.
I switched to Federal, which still works just fine in most all of my autoloaders. (except for my Beretta 21a, but I think that's the gun and not the ammo).
To answer some questions:
The prices are all calculated on the basis of price per 100 rounds. So the bulk packs are larger at 500, 525, or 550 rounds, I simply divided the cost of the bulk pack by the number of rounds and multiplied by 100. I did find a mistake. The Mini Mags were actually $6.47 per 100.
Due to the number of rounds fired, the group center was shot-out in most cases. So the group pattern was evaluated and the number of fliers counted. The group size of the Remmington bulk rounds was 5 inches, which is awful from a bench rest. Remington Green Bulk produced the most duds. There were no stovepipes. The Remington rounds were marked on the bottom of the cases Rem, and not U. I didn't put the ThunderBolt up because I didn't buy it at WalMart and I didn't have 80 rounds of it for the test after using it a previous AS event. At that event, the ThunderBolt had a lot of duds, but I and my friend both shot Rifleman scores with it. I wouldn't buy it again.
One of my loaners got used with Remington ammo this weekend. Yesterday I pulled apart the trigger group to show Luv2BFree what part of the bolt release to modify (since I've done it to all my LTRs) I've never SEEN it so filthy - I mean, the parts of the trigger group were actually GREASY. (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/smilies/zygi.gif)
My experience is that nothing is dirtier than .22 rimfire ammo. I've always been a Remington guy due to problems long ago with Winchester ammo in a couple of rifles. Recently my experience with Remington isn't much better though.
There's a lot of folks here shooting lots of .22 ammo these days. Any opinions on what the dirtiest .22 ammo is or is it too subjective a question?
I wouldn't doubt that the Remington Golden Bullets are some of the dirtyest-shooting ones out there, because of that "gold dust" coating on the bullets... but my Rugers still love the stuff. They can go over 1000 rounds without experiencing any problems from being too dirty.
Like I said before, the Federal Bulk doesn't work at all in them. They jam every 4-5 rounds with it.
Don't assume that because somebody else has problems with Remington, or Federal, or anything else, that you will have the same. The only thing you can do is to try different types of ammo in your rifle and find one it likes, as has been stated many times.
Well, the cleanest ammo I've used is Eley but that is too expensive for Appleseed-quantity shooting. The Remington bulk is, indeed, dirty stuff.
The Federal 550 round bulk box is reasonably clean and functions well in my 10/22s. It shows up at my local Wal Marts about 20 boxes at a time and I buy several. It is 50/50 on any given week whether they will have any so I buy it when I see it.
The sporting goods dept guys don't even act surprised when I ask "How many boxes do you have?" followed by "I'll take all of it"
bought em cheap and stacked high :~
Eley Target (yellow box) at $6.00 per 50 is the best shooting to price point ammuniton that I have found. I can put three rounds in the same hole. I attach a picture of the last target I shot, with the 13 rounds, three in each target except for the 250 "head shot" which has only one round in it.
Has any one out there tryed the CCI. Pest control shot load? For 22. I watched a vid. On youtube and the guy had a problem on them cycaling and that past 5' the group was wayyyyyy to spread out so any experience will help Cu's I would love to use some this year for squirrel if they work that is
It's my experience that they spread out waaay too fast to be effective on squirrels. Also, the shot (#12 I think) is too small to maintain its velocity at any distance, so not enough penetration.
So OK for snakes and mice at just a few feet, but not of much use beyond that. I've seldom gotten close enough to a live squirrel for them to work.
Cool thank you
Rifles used - Heavy barrel, carbine length AR w/CMMG conversion kit and Ruger 10/22 Varmint/Target. Both rifles are scoped. Groups fired from sandbags.
Ranked from best to worst:
CCI Velocitor - will shoot into one ragged hole at 25m
CCI Blazer - will shoot into one ragged hole at 25m (slightly larger than Velocitors)
CCI Stinger
Winchester Bulk Pack (333 or 555)
Federal Bulk Pack
Remington (accuracy and reliability issues)
Also had some bricks of Federal and Remington plated and lead - 20+ years old. They shot really poorly.
Like any ammo, you should try several makes with your particular rifle(s) to see which is preferred. Shooting from a bench gives the best test of actual accuracy, then follow-up with field shooting positions to confirm.
I've had fair luck with Federal bulk. It isn't as good as CCI. I've found that CCI Blazer shoots almost as well as the CCI mini-mag for about half the price when you can find it on sale. I wanted to see if the mini-mag was enough better to justify the additional expense so I shot some groups at 25 yards. My conclusion is that the mini-mag is slightly better than the Blazer, but not twice as good. See the two attached pictures. Each group is five shots. One key factor to consider is that the Blazer is straight lead where the mini-mag is coated. So if you are worried about exposure to lead you might go with the mini-mag.
For what it's worth, I have been measuring "rim thickness" since 1994. I buy whatever I can find, single 50 round boxes, bulk, etc. I sort all the ammo I shoot at matches and Appleseed shoots. Have miss-fires once in a while but overall , precision is way up. I shoot up a group of ammo that measures the same and when that is gone, I re-sight using the next measured group and so on. I never mix brands in the same magazine.
cubflyr
To me that looks like nothing more than the control group coming into play on the "better" ammo. If you were to take the Pepsi Challenge and/or add in the placebo effect I bet they'd group so similarly you wouldn't even notice.