I will be going to Alabama to visit family soon and am going to be making a visit to Anniston.
I've never owned an M1, much less selected one off of the rack. I searched some and had no luck finding this question asked previously. So, the $64,000 question:
What do I look for when picking a rifle off of the rack? (I don't know if it matters much but I'll be looking at Service Grade rifles) Thanks in advance.
From my experience at the North Store. ASK them. Let them know you are working on becoming an Appleseed Instructor, and you will get a wealth of knowledge. They are the experts.
number6
Hopefully,
you will be able to go on a weekday and the guys that work there will answer your questions and concerns!
They will help you pick out the best rifle for you and what you are looking for! :--- ..:..
It is not always what you think different year different manufacturers and quality control!
Sponge off of the knowledge while you are there!
+1 on #6's advice...they spent 30+ minutes helping me select a rifle in the past. I have 3 Garands, 2 03's and 1 1917 from them.
What you should look for is a loaded question...what are you looking for? Collectibility? Shootability? Just to have one? It's like asking "What car should I get?" Uhh...depends on what your needs are.
At a high level, though, the big things you should care about:
+ Matching parts...on the open market this is important. However, you have a 99% chance of NOT getting this as most Garands have been arsenal rebuilt so many times they are a complete mix
+ Muzzle wear (MW) - measured with a gauge or a bullet -- see Scott Duffs comments below
+ Throat erosion (TE) - measured with a gauge -- see Scott Duffs below
+ Overall condition - wood condition and metal condition - a driver of value but not necessarily shootability
+ Manufacturer - mostly important for collectors. Don't care? Get a Springfield Armory. Remember though that they were also made by Winchester, International Harvester, Harrington and Richardson.
QuoteFrom Scott Duff's website:
A Comment on Throat Erosion from Scott Duff
It has come to my attention from discussions with many M1 Garand owners that a misunderstanding of an acceptable versus an unacceptable Throat Erosion (TE) reading exists. A note of clarification is in order. When discussing serviceability specifications of U.S. Martial Arms, it is best to review the primary source, the U.S. Army Ordnance Corps documents from when the M1 rifle was the issue rifle to front-line troops. I have in my files TB ORD 587 dated 20 December 1954 entitled Field Inspection and Serviceability Standards for Small Arms Material. A chart on page four outlines the serviceability specifications for the M1, M1C, and M1D rifles "To Accompany Troops Overseas." The specification given for "Breech Bore Rejection" is "Over 0.306" or a TE reading of 6 on a gage. No specification is given for muzzle wear. If combat troops in the 1950s were issued rifles with a TE of 6 or under, then the same is good enough for a rifle in my collection. I would not go to the John C. Garand Match at Camp Perry with a rifle with a TE of 6, but for general collecting, in my opinion, it matters little.
This is also a good time to note that based upon my observations the TE of a new production SA barrel during World War II ran anywhere from approximately 1.0 to 3.5. Pre World War II SA barrels were usually in the 0.0 to 1.0 range. Winchester barrels were generally in the -1.0 to 2.0 range, but I have seen new WRA barrels with higher and lower readings.
Thanks, guys. I guess the obvious answer to "Why do I want it?" is "To shoot." That's really my primary motivator. I want an accurate rifle that's in good, serviceable condition and out of which I can get some quality shooting time, right off the rack, without a lot of upfront maintenance. Again, never having owned a Garand puts me at the disadvantage of not knowing what makes a rifle one like the one I describe. I will definitely be reading up between now and my trip but I know a lot of PA Instructors own/collect/shoot/compete with these rifles, so I figured I'd come to this well first.
ST, your closing comments were pretty much what I was looking for.
Hopefully there will be enough staff onhand when I go for me to bug with questions and few enough customers that they have the time to answer. I will definitely go prepared to take notes.
Thanks, again.
Be prepared to spend $950 and get a service grade special. CMP is still quite a bit behind on mail orders, and that seems to be what is available in store. If you want a chance at anything else you should probably be in line at 7am, and if they happen to have any service grades in stock that day you might have a chance at one. They may not be able to show you many of the differences between the grades, but they should be able to give you some good history. When I was there they weren't particularly busy, but when I started asking about different rifles they said to just pick one of the service grade specials because that's all they had and they are all essentially the same. I ended up picking one that had an numerically interesting serial number.
Check out the CMP South Store forum for current information before you go. http://forums.thecmp.org/forumdisplay.php?f=74
Remember: This is to be considered a shopping event(not a shopping trip). Expect to spend 4 hours at a minimum. More if they are busy.
Quote from: DEH on July 24, 2013, 02:48:02 PM
Remember: This is to be considered a shopping event(not a shopping trip). Expect to spend 4 hours at a minimum. More if they are busy.
Exactly. There is more to see than the rifle you end up buying.
I encourage you to consider a CMP Special if you are looking for a shooter with potential to be a HP match rifle. At $995.00 it can't be beat. I bought one last fall, my first Center Fire, in .308. Her name is Irene. She is totally accurate out to at least 500 yards if I do my part. M1 sights are AWESOME. I went with .308 under the theory milsurp ammo would be easier to find. Also not either for NRA 'Garand' matches, oh well, That was an oops given the recent unpleasantness. In all other respects it has been been completely satisfactory. And it makes that PING sound after the last round. Liking it. PM me if you want to talk more.
fisherdawg
These will all be used, but serviceable, rifles. In the past, you might get a pristine example by luck of the draw. My shooting buddy got one. It was a brand new rifle, just a little marring on the buttplate from sitting in storage for 45 years. Now, the minty and collectible ones get pulled and auctioned off separately.
Tell the folks there that you want "the best shooter available". If you hand over your drivers' license, you can borrow a set of gauges from the CMP folks. That, coupled with the free (and accurate ) advice they will gladly dispense, will yield the best shooter available from what's on the racks. In the past, if you were really nice, they would go to the back room and hand pick. I don't know if that is still going on.
now, for $950, you get a totally rebuilt M1, all metal parts refurbed, brand new Boyds stock, and a brand new barrel. As a bonus, you can have it in either 30-06, or 7.62x51 (my choice). I have seen and handled one. The owner said it shot as good as it looked. If you can afford the extra $$$, you should go that route.
If they have the rebuilt Daisy 853 in for $100 get at least one. It comes with very nice sights and you can shoot it all day and then some for the cost of a single en bloc in the Garand. Get a bunch of the H&N pelets that they have for them too. There is a very inexpensive book they have on this rifle s well on improving it for competition and tricks for making it fit better money very well spent.
Get slings if they have any and check to make sure they have all the parts.
If they have any service grades they will have the throat and muzzles spec on a tag. Pick out the ones you like best take them up to the window and ask whick one will be the best shooter.
Also get Greek ball if they have any there. Gotta feed your new best friend! ;D Get out and shoot it.
The armorer also recommended, "The M1 Garand Complete Assembly Guide." by Walt Luleck with Clint McKee, very nice book.
Have you sent in your paperwork yet?
If I recall correctly, they won't be able to cut through the red tape on the spot and you may have to fill it all out and provide the necessary certificates, etc.; only to have the rifle mailed to you later.
Something to look into to avoid possible disappointment.
Oh, and load up on ammo!
Stand+1, O0
I think I will buy a pair! ..:..
Quote from: Kosciusko on July 24, 2013, 08:54:51 PM
These will all be used, but serviceable, rifles.
Tell the folks there that you want "the best shooter available". If you hand over your drivers' license, you can borrow a set of gauges from the CMP folks.
Now, for $950, you get a totally rebuilt M1, all metal parts refurbed, brand new Boyds stock, and a brand new barrel. As a bonus, you can have it in either 30-06, or 7.62x51 (my choice).
Service grade and rack grade will be used. Service grade special were basically unused barreled receivers built up with parts and new stocks ($950). Those rifle will have a throat and muzzle wear reading on them. CMP Specials have a new manufacture barrel (Criterion), 0 throat/muzzle wear, and cost a little more ($995)
Quote from: AFTERMATH on July 24, 2013, 09:15:29 PM
Have you sent in your paperwork yet?
If I recall correctly, they won't be able to cut through the red tape on the spot and you may have to fill it all out and provide the necessary certificates, etc.; only to have the rifle mailed to you later.
They can do all the paperwork in store (including the notary service), but you do need to have all the required proof of eligibility with you...firearms proficiency (Appleseed certificate, Concealed handgun license, FFL - even C&R, etc.), club association (RWVA, Garand collectors - can be joined there as well), proof of citizenship and age.
Unless you have a place or a reason to shoot the M1 while you are there, you will save money if you have the rifle shipped home. Shipping is only $25 for overnight service. Tax if you want to take it with you on a $1000 rifle will be another $100. If you know when you'll be home to receive it you can have them hold off on shipping. Ammo is cheaper to buy and take with you rather than shipping, even including tax (but only a couple dollars per can). If you don't have room to travel with the ammo, the shipping might be a good option.
Ordered a FG back in early May. Was supposed to be an HRA. Got a call last Wednesday, and they wanted to know if they could substitute an SA, as they were fresh out of FG HRAs. I said OK. It shipped last Thursday night, and arrived at my door last Friday morning. Muzzle was 2+ and throat was 3+. Wood was all matching in color, but with a few scratches/dings. Had an SA barrel dated 12-44, agreeing with S/N showing rifle was made in Dec. 1944. Bluing has silvered nicely, and there is no rust and only a couple of very small dings along the edge of the receiver. No cosmoline. No apparent muzzle damage. There _was_ just a little mud inside front sight, and some grassy vegetation all dried out under butt plate. Overall, I'm happy, happy, happy! Should be a good shooter! ^:)^
Guys, thanks again for all the input and advice. I knew this was the right well at which to stop first. You 'Seeders are alright :) (Glad I'm one.)
FYI:
I am driving home to visit so the ammo handling shouldn't be a problem. As a famous fellow is prone to advise: Buy it cheap and stack it deep.
I'm taking my Dad with me so he can take part in the process. Pop was drafted in '62 and served as an MP. He trained on the M1 and, when I was growing up, told lots of stories of his favorite rifle. I have vivid imaginings of those soldiers marching to and from training with the occasional bandaged thumb swinging along in time with their unmolested counterparts. I'd love for him to shoot it but don't think he could manage it unless from a well-supported bench position. So, with that in mind, I may just ship her and transpo the ammo in my vehicle.
I called them the other day to find out that they primarily only have the Selects in stock so I may have to suck it up and pay nearly twice what I was planning on. At least I'll end up with a rifle that should give me many years of faithful service.
As stated previously I intend to go with the small mouth/big ears policy and take copious notes. I'm sure there's more to learn from those guys than I can get while I'm there. I have scheduled no other activities for that day other than rifle shopping so I will have plenty of time to look at and handle rifles.
One last question: What (other than the obvious compatibility benefits of sharing ammo with my M1A) are the benefits of getting the x51 version of the Garand?
Thanks, again.
BTW, I'll be dropping in on the folks at Creedmor Sports while I'm there.
Congrats on your piece of treasure, Guntuckian
Quote from: Surveyor1653 on July 26, 2013, 01:20:45 PM
One last question: What (other than the obvious compatibility benefits of sharing ammo with my M1A) are the benefits of getting the x51 version of the Garand?
If you ask me, nearly zero. Compatibility with other guns? Given that I have Over 25 different calibers in the stable, I don't really care about that. I think it is an overrated benefit...unless you are worried about supply chain logistics to the front. And that would mean that we've failed as AS-ers.
If you ever want to sell the gun, it will be less attractive to most M1 buyers.
I know the .308s have a reputation for being less reliable. Whether that rep is justified or not I don't know, as I don't have personal experience with them. Could be another one of those urban legends/gun myths that just won't die.
Plus, an M1 in .308? Sacrilegious! Next thing is you'll be wanting to buy a 1911 in 9mm! Horrors!
Go 30-06. Buy best grade u can afford along with much ammo. Look for young man in showroom - paid employee. He will look for a rifle re-worked by his fav armorer. U can't go wrong. He selected two for me and they are both beautiful. Also helped me select a proper bayo. Showroom is small - experience is huge. O0
Last I heard the stores did not have any field or service grade rifles in stock and that everything that passes muster goes out for mail order.
The specials are still in stock.
My info could be out of date, but that was the situation this Spring and I didn't get a CMP email saying anything had changed.
Quote from: Stand on July 24, 2013, 09:13:44 PM
If they have the rebuilt Daisy 853 in for $100 get at least one.
CMP website says of these: "Sales are limited to individuals and programs whose primary intention is to develop new shooters with these rifles."
I don't think they mean my kid. Looking at the new ones...getting too hard to find .22LR.
I was a firing member of the All Navy Rifle Team back in the 1960's when the Navy shot 308 Garands built by Don McCoy. They were considered to be the best match grade rifles available at the time. The Army and Marine Corps Teams would have shot one of our guns if they had been allowed.
I put 24000 rounds through one of those rifles and never had a malfunction and it would still hold ten ring. I wore three of those rifles out over the time I was on the team. If you are buying a rifle as a shooter and you are not hung up on 30-06 then get a 308. It is more reliable, softer shooting, easier to load and more accurate. On the down sde you don't get to shoot that old corrosive ammo and a tall round will prevent you from loading a clip.
I'll be glad to answer any questions you have on 308 Garands.
VA,
Hope all is well sir - been a long time.
The Garands they have now are built in-house and they look beautiful. I picked one up that I sold to a buddy. I never fired it and not sure if he has - will ask. It looked like a new rifle and for most part - it is. Had one on the line recently that also looked great, but would not function at'all and for life of me - could not figure why. I finally got the bolt to come back, but still could not get it to go. Advised shooter to find Garand savvy smith or send it back - likely something simple.
I just got following directly from CMP:
Sales Update
*** PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL ADDRESS. THIS IS AN AUTOMATED ACCOUNT
AND REPLIES WILL NOT BE READ ***
MANY M1 GARAND OPTIONS - SOLD OUT. As most of our customers and competitors know, this year has seen a nationwide unprecedented purchasing of firearms and ammunition. The panic buying, along with the increased popularity of the M1 Garand has impacted significantly on the CMP. Our store racks are bare and our M1 Garand ready to ship inventory of several grades and manufacturers has been wiped out and the waiting list (backorders) for some items exceeds 2,000 orders. As a result, we have stopped accepting orders for several grades and manufacturers. Please see http://www.thecmp.org/Sales/m1garand.htm for additional information.
Several years ago CMP received a large quantity of M1 Garand rifles from the U.S. Army. People generally assume that these were complete rifles, already packed and ready to ship. That is not the case. The "rifle" may be a stripped receiver, welded rifle, barreled receiver, complete rifle, used, unused, or even a lump of metal with a tag on it saying that this was serial number xxxxx destroyed in a fire. We still have thousands of these uninspected rifles in storage. The rifles are stored in unopened crates in several warehouses. We work (inspect, repair as needed, and grade) these rifles one crate at a time. Until we work a crate, we do not know what manufacturer we will find or how the rifle will grade.
The item with the largest amount of backorders is RM1HRAS, Harrington and Richardson Arms (HRA) Service Grade M1 Garand. Our serial number records show that we have significantly more HRA serial numbers than any other manufacturer, which is why we are still taking orders for this option. We do find 10-20 M1 Garands manufactured by Springfield Armory (SA) each week. We are not finding enough of these SA rifles to again begin accepting orders for them, but as we do find SA M1 Garands, we are contacting customers on the RM1HRAS list to see if they would accept the SA as a substitute, since pricing is the same for both. We work the oldest orders first and are now contacting a few customers whose orders were received in March 2013. We request that customers not contact us requesting a change, but wait till we contact them, since we will give the opportunity to change first to oldest orders.
AGUILA .22 CAL AMMO. This week we received an unexpected 300 cases of Aguila 419ASVGE and 400 cases of Aguila 419ASVSE. Oldest orders for these two items will be processed next week. This will still leave 5,460 open orders for the standard velocity 419ASVSE and 309 orders for Golden Eagle 419ASVGE. The next shipment is expected in October 2013.
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
Orest Michaels
Chief Operating Officer
WOW! How good is it to see VAshooter post. For all you newbie's VAshooter was in AS at the beginning and was a master instructor before his knees gave out and his age caught up with him. You could learn more about shooting spending 20 minutes with him, than you could learn reading 5 books. A man of great character and a true man of liberty.
If he lived near me, I would pick him up for Appleseeds and give him a chair on the line, to teach us how to shoot.
24 thousand rounds, how much is that in todays money?
Thanks. Doug for still staying in touch with Appleseed :)
QuoteThanks. Doug for still staying in touch with Appleseed
O0