I am new to marksmanship training. It became very clear to me that I needed training or to learn fundamentals when sighting in a centerfire .223 rifle with a bipod like device, I had 10% of my shots 3.5 inches from center at 25 yards. Some suggested I check out this program, and I am very interested in it and intend on participating in at least one weekend this year.
So - should one buy a 22 LR if they already have a rifle (but shoots much more expensive ammunition)? After buying an upgrading a Marlin 795, I break even at about 700 rounds, if I were to just buy ammunition for my .223 centerfire, which would be my preferred home defense rifle (which I am already signed up for self defense classes with). It seems that a 22 is highly preferred and suggested to attend classes with. Or is the 22 stressed because many people new to firearms need a rifle to start with? I believe the 2nd day, a centerfire rifle at longer ranges is then encouraged.
Using a 22, I would be using a rifle with a different grip, weight, sight picture, and trigger pull. Skills should be transferable though. So - after the class, I'll have two rifles. Do people go back to ranges to practice with their 22, to beef up skills for their main rifle? I am not dissing a 22, but am wondering if purchasing the 22 LR will be better in the long run for skill practicing, than buying 700 rounds to practice with on my main centerfire.
Thanks!
If your .223 is an AR 15, you could get a .22lr upper, even in the same configuration as the .223! Same grip, weight and manual of arms.
The biggest reason I have for using the .22LR for training on the fundamental skills is cost. Even at the rapacious aftermarket prices I see online, .22 is around ten cents per round. If you get the Walmart app you can find out when they have .22 in stock and pounce on it at normal prices of about five cents per round. The 5.56, which is coming back at the online dealers, is still 50-60 cents per round.
In a typical Appleseed clinic you will fire 300-400 rounds, possibly slightly more. So one weekend makes up half of your breakeven analysis.
Second is that, even though the 5.56 has light recoil for a centerfire, the .22 completely removes recoil and flinch as a source of distraction while you are focusing on the fundamentals.
Third, the .22 is useful for a bunch of other purposes, including practice - if you are diligent you will shoot a couple of AQTs or the equivalent per week; Rimfire Steel Challenge, Rimfire Silhouette, and fun postal matches run by the guys on the rimfirecentral.com forum. My club has just instituted a Rimfire 3-Position Match as an informal, low-cost alternative to NRA High Power, using the Appleseed AQT target at 25 meters for the four stages.
Fourth, if you have any new shooters, especially young shooters, in your circle of family and friends, you'll want to teach them marksmanship on a .22 rather than a centerfire rifle. The rifle itself lasts a few lifetimes with proper care, so the cost per year of ownership is infinitesimal compared to the value you and your family (present and future) will get from it. One rifle is good, two are better.
Fifth, if you ever needed to hunt small game for the stew pot, you'll get more meat off a rabbit killed with a .22 than off one shot with a 5.56 (if you can find the pieces).
QuoteShould I buy a .22 LR when I have a centerfire .223?
Yes, by all means.
UL
People use .22lr mostly because of cost and learning efficiency.
Essentially it's the cheapest and easiest way to work on marksmanship fundamentals.
That being said, while you can learn all the skills to get a jump start on your real rifle shooting there's nothing better than shooting your center fire to learn how to shoot your center fire.
However, don't think of it like buying a .22lr just to hit the break-even point. Because after that you're saving about $300 per 1k of practice rounds. Not only does marksmanship involve a never ending process of skill improvement it is also a very perishable skill and must be practiced routinely in order to maintain proficiency. Yes, people do go back and practice with their .22lrs... Ideally, their .22 will be set up in a similar configuration to their main rifle to facilitate the transfer of skills.
In order to achieve and/or maintain a consistent skill level you're round count will not be in the hundreds - think thousands and tens of thousands even more if you're preparing for defense applications. That's supplemented by dry-fire in between.
A Rifleman's skill improvement does not end when he scores expert on an AQT it only ends when he runs out of ammo.
Going to an Appleseed - Will teach you the fundamentals whichever way you go.
Coming out of the Appleseed you will be most proficient with the rifle you brought to and shot at the Appleseed. But that will transfer over with a little practice.
It's in future practice and skill development that you'll really appreciate the cost benefits of a .22lr.
The recommendation is to get to an Appleseed as soon as you can with whatever you have available.
Get the fundamentals nailed down so that each shot you make from then on is done the right way.
'Cause practice does not make perfect - only perfect practice makes perfect. Bad habits can creep up on you and are terrible to get rid of.
I shot my first Appleseed with the best rifle I had at the time - an SKS! ;)
Oh, and two rifles is never a bad thing. ^-^
What ever you do DO NOT BY A CONVERSION KIT! Buy a .22 upper or another rifle. The barrel on a .223 is bigger than the .22 bullet and will only give 5-6 MOA. The one that was on my last line jammed a lot and had to break down the rifel to clear it.
A .22 upper will take care of all your concerns about grip, trigger pull, and sight picture. Weight should be very close and you can always add weight to get the feel and balance right. Or a Smith and Wesson 15-22 may work for you. A Ruger 10-22 in an ATI stock with Tech sights will be close as well.
90% of the trigger time I get at the moment is with a CMP rebuilt Daisy 885. ($100) It has a sling attachment, click adjustable peep sights, quiet and you can practice the fundamentls almost anywhere. It will really work your ability to acquire your NPOA. 250 pellets are under $4.00 at Wally World. (see the thousands -tens of thousands comment above)
A good 22 that fits you is just fun to shoot and will allow you to practice the FUNdamentals more.
If your basics are not keeping 10 rounds in the inch square at 82 feet buy a .22. When you have the bacics down and you can drop and put 10 rounds in an inch under 60 seconds at will then bring out the centerfire and your progress with it will be much faster than trying to learn the fundamentals, deal with noise, recoil, and the cost of ammo running up in your head.
Another option is to contact the shootboss and ask if a loaner is available in a setup you are looking for before you spend your money. The draw back to this is no practice with it before the seed.
Just my 2 cents
Smith & Wesson MP-15 22
IMO
Quote from: draken on June 24, 2013, 09:35:18 PM
If your .223 is an AR 15, you could get a .22lr upper, even in the same configuration as the .223! Same grip, weight and manual of arms.
O0 O0 O0 Got a CMMG dedicated .22lr upper with the 20" barrel. Runs 100% and it's a tack driver for the same or less $$$ than the 15-22 and twice the quality....O.L.
I was sold a conversion kit for $200 it drops in in 10 seconds and is the most fun you can have with your cloths on.
You need high velocity ammo 1200fps+ for proper blow back of the bolt and function, and it will hold 4moa.
BTW I believe the info above comes from the worlds finest and most knowledgeable instructors and rifleman on the planet! ..:..
We have a wise old lil' man runnin' this region(kinda the Mr. Meagi of Appleseed),
He once told me to never limit yourself or believe you have enough,or too much! ;)
Let's not forget when you have 2 rifles your friends don't have any excuse to not join you at the next Appleseed!
More rifles = Good :) O0 BeSwift
I agree with everything said above. Also since cost seems like an issue, you should calculate in that if you don't like or just don't end up wanting to keep the 795, you could probably recover 70% of what you paid for it by selling it used.
If you already have a 795 this is one of the more Appleseed friendly rifles there is and the barrells are incredibly accurate for thousands of rounds!
every rifle shooter should own at least one .22
Yes buy a 22 unless you live in California where too many voters ignore or are unaware of the NRA voting guide .
SB 374, as introduced, Steinberg. Firearms: assault weapons.
Existing law regulates the sale, carrying, and control of firearms, including assault weapons, and requires assault weapons to be registered with the Department of Justice. Violation of these provisions is a crime. Existing law defines a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and other specified features and a semiautomatic weapon that has a fixed magazine with a capacity to accept 10 or more rounds as an assault weapon.
This bill would, instead, classify a semiautomatic, rimfire or centerfire rifle that does not have a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept 10 rounds or fewer as an assault weapon. The bill would require a person who, between January 1, 2001, and prior to January 1, 2014, lawfully possessed an assault weapon that does not have a fixed magazine, including those weapons with an ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with the use of a tool, to register the firearm by July 1, 2014. By expanding the definition of a crime, this bill would impose a state-mandated local program.
This bill would require, on and after July 1, 2014, a Firearm Ownership Record to be submitted, as specified, to the Department of Justice for every firearm an individual owns, with prescribed exceptions, including firearms purchased from a licensed firearms dealer and documented by a Dealers' Record of Sale transaction and assault weapons registered with the department. The bill would authorize the department to charge a fee of up to $19 per transaction for the submission of the Firearm Ownership Record.
The California Constitution requires the state to reimburse local agencies and school districts for certain costs mandated by the state. Statutory provisions establish procedures for making that reimbursement.
This bill would provide that no reimbursement is required by this act for a specified reason.
JA,
Y'all are in TROUBLE!
Quote from: Twineagles on June 25, 2013, 08:28:41 AM
Let's not forget when you have 2 rifles your friends don't have any excuse to not join you at the next Appleseed!
Yep, buying the dedicated .22lr upper resulted in purchase of another lower! It was just too good to sit in the safe unassembled! :)...O.L.
i did the same thing
Submit absolute LEAST expensive rifle marksmanship training (with acknowledgement/recognition of the obvious single shot/single-pump drawback, making multiple shots impossible) wherever 10 meters/33 ft are available (basement? family room? back yard?) is the Daisy 853, a single-pump, .177 cal air rifle. Comes with usable sling, inexpensive target sights, and, best of all, is ON SALE from the CMP (full disclosure: used, refurbished) for one HUNDRED dollars + shipping each. So inexpensive - buy 2-3...
Unsolicited testimonial: I used exact same air rifles from the CMP for my HS's PE classes, grades 5 through 12...and if the gym classes couldn't kill these rifles, nothing can.
Excelsior,
madMark/nyrasgt
PS CMP also shipping 2013 catalogs by the case; request through CMP customer service - distribute @ Appleseed events accompanied by showing an heirloom M1 Garand from same source. CMP even (still) has .30-06 ammunition @ 200 rds for $98 + shipping. You snooze...
Yes! And the Marlin 795 is good value & great for Appleseeding.
Uppers are great also, but if you choose the 795, you'll have 2 rifles, which is better than having just one rifle, right? :cool2:
Quote from: Patent guy on June 25, 2013, 11:19:48 PM
Yes! And the Marlin 795 is good value & great for Appleseeding.
Uppers are great also, but if you choose the 795, you'll have 2 rifles, which is better than having just one rifle, right? :cool2:
Also a good upper will cost you a lot more than a Marlin 795
Quote from: Legend on June 26, 2013, 08:17:21 AM
Also a good upper will cost you a lot more than a Marlin 795
And you won't get a lot more accuracy, if any. I won't dispute that competitive shooters are using Anschutzen and other +$1500 rifles, or that they are getting somewhat smaller groups. But for a functional shooter, a Marlin 795 is really tough to beat.
That said, I have two and will probably get a .22 upper some day. Or an M&P15-22. Because of reasons. Only THEN will I get the Marlin Papoose takedown 795.
I used a 10/22 in my first AS several years ago...now I have a S&W MP 15-22 and can't wait to use it in AS soon...by all means get a 22 of the ltr variety.
If u can obtain / afford 450 rounds of .556 ammo of same lot - use the
Quote from: jimmythegeek on July 26, 2013, 03:50:05 PM
Quote from: Legend on June 26, 2013, 08:17:21 AM
Also a good upper will cost you a lot more than a Marlin 795
And you won't get a lot more accuracy, if any. I won't dispute that competitive shooters are using Anschutzen and other +$1500 rifles, or that they are getting somewhat smaller groups. But for a functional shooter, a Marlin 795 is really tough to beat.
That said, I have two and will probably get a .22 upper some day. Or an M&P15-22. Because of reasons. Only THEN will I get the Marlin Papoose takedown 795.
A 10/22 or 795 or even a Marlin tube fed bolt gun will be plenty accurate enough to earn you a Rifleman's score or three.
But "somewhat smaller groups" is an understatement. In smallbore, you either shoot and hit a .78 moa X ring the majority of the time or you lose. Here are the 50 yard target ring sizes
X ring.... .39 inch
10 ring... .89 inch
9 ring.... 1.89 inches
8 ring.... 2.89 inches
7 ring.... 3.89.inches
6 ring.... 4.89 inches
5 ring.... 5.89 inches
At this year's smallbore prone championship at Camp Perry the 100th place shooter dropped 40 points in 480 shots and put 298 of his shots into that .39 inch X ring at 50 yards. The first place shooter dropped 2 points in 480 shots and managed 385 in the X ring.
Yep, my dedicated upper will shoot half the group size of our best 10-22 and I whip the CZ's and others on a regular basis with it. At our first seed, my wife and I had one 10-22 so both of us shot our .223's and for what we spent on ammo we could have bought a new 10-22, which is what we did for the next one. If you can't do it with a .22lr, you can't with anything bigger....O.L.
Quote from: wjg on June 24, 2013, 09:13:30 PM
Using a 22, I would be using a rifle with a different grip, weight, sight picture, and trigger pull. Skills should be transferable though.
For what it's worth, I had only used a .22 LR at my previous 4 Appleseeds. At the most recent event, I shot 13 rounds with an instructor's M1A, and despite struggling with the length of the rifle, was able to almost clear the redcoat target. I missed 2 shots at 400 yards, but cleared the head shot :) That was better than I had done with the .22 the previous day. So yes, the skills do transfer.
Chris
The cheapest training you can do (and IMO, most effective) is dry firing and position holds (eg. laser training for achieving NPOA). Dry firing allows you to concentrate on the 6 steps and your steady hold factors. I'd not shot more than about 400 rounds out of any type of firearm before attending my 1st Appleseed but I spend many hours in the two months before, practicing dry firing (after watching the M1 Garand training films on youtube). I shot a rifleman score on my very first AQT and repeated that several more times. Not because I was doing everything correctly (I wasn't, as I wasn't even using the loop sling in my training) but because I was able to achieve NPOA and do OK at the 6 steps.
This Olympian (and Army Reservist) fires 100 dry fire shots for every live fire shot. Between the 2008 Olympics and 2009 World Championships, he shot less than 400 live rounds and became the #1 shooter in the world. Achieving a rifleman level is not about spending money on a better rifle, scope, match ammo or a $300 trigger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=620LlSK3Oyo
Dry fire is the way to go and the cost of ammo is zero. I have shot rifleman with and my ar15 and m1a and dry fire helped more then anything.
A 22lr was my first rifle as a child, and I would never be without one. That being said, there is something to the old saying "Beware the man with one rifle, for he probably knows how to use it". Of course I am in danger of having to purchase another gun safe, since guns are like potato chips, you can never stop at just one.
If you buy another rifle of a different caliber then when ammo for one is scarce you can shoot the other one.
Any updates on this, wjg?
Did you buy a .22?