Interesting video looks at the different POIs for various battlesight zeros with the AR 15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=60zbwMYJiLI#!
Some good info, presented visually.
tk
Great video! Timely also. I've done 3 KD seeds but this last one is the first for me where they incorporated holdovers and battlefield zero's in the training. Love it, verses dialing in come ups. My brain just works better with hold overs. (camp Atterbury, IN)
M16A@ rear site drum is supposed to be a BDC, but if set by Army manual, it does not function as such. Marines figured this out and call for a 50m zero in order to get the BDC to work with ball rounds. GI A2 drum in NOT calibrated in MOA. I have a printed procedure somewhere and also a decent charting of what each click represents on the differing iterations of ARs. The shorter the site radius, the more effect each click has (you knew that and likely all else above).
The beauty of an AR with BSZ is it makes KD AQTs stupid easy. If you hold center for the first 3 targets and top of the head for the last, you'll have no problem qualifying.
PHenry, I'm not sure where you're getting your info on the M16A@ but my Uncle's M16A2 functioned flawlessly when using the Army manual 25m zero method. Just dial in the correct distance on the elevation drum and fire for effect. My personally owned AR-15 is the same way.
The inaccuracies probably come from folks forgetting the sight is calibrated in meters, not yards. The roughly 10% difference isn't enough to worry about up close, but that extra click per 100 meters could end up sending rounds over the target once it gets out to 400 and beyond if the shooter is ranging in yards - especially if they're using a 6 O'Clock hold and already have a 2 MOA "jump" in their zero.
My AR is a standard 16" and the BSZ works with the standard drum grads. Using the Army 25M zero I have KD qualed without problem. Because of the issue of meters versus yards that Slim mentions I back off the 4 hash on the drum by a click when shooting 400 yards and fire for effect. That is with 55gr M193 and 62 gr M855. (It also works with Wolf 55gr. as a guy proved this weekend). As an aside, it was nice to hand a guy who had never been to an Appleseed a piece of paper that said "3/6 @300 +/- 1 and 4-1 for 400" and he understood exactly what it meant. Of course, the government had to send him to Infantry school, SDM and sniper school before I found one but it was a nice feeling nonetheless. In fact, my numbers matched the M4 he had been issued at Benning exactly and Malea's numbers for tater's A2 did the same.
Quote from: SPQR on June 18, 2013, 08:06:53 PM
In fact, my numbers matched the M4 he had been issued at Benning exactly and Malea's numbers for tater's A2 did the same.
Math isn't a suggestion.
IT'S THE LAW!!! @&)
I use the RIBZ with a 6 o'clock hold. It works great and it's what I can see. It had me hitting 500 with surplus pulled 55 grain reloads on a $500 M4gery. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/328143_RIBZ_____Revised_Improved_Battlesight_Zero.html&page=1
BSZ works fine out to 300 (on a D target I aim low for 100, just in the black for 200, dead on for 300) and three clicks on my A2 let's me hold dead on at 400.
The major difference between the Services is that the Marines don't shoot popups that only go out to 300. They shoot paper out to 500. Their training doctrine emphasizes this and every Marine really is a "Rifleman."
If they are good enough, they have the opportunity to shoot on the Summer team at Quantico. There they go from shooting military expert scores of 80% to shooting High Power Master and High Master Scores of 94% and 97%. They do this through a training schedule that has them working 8 or more hours a day. At the end of the shooting season they take this knowledge back to their units where it is sometimes accepted and other times ignored.
Shooting in the Creedmoor Cup this year I was squadded beside a Retired Marine who had been on the team in the 80's and 90's. It was expected that you would clean sitting and rapid prone. If you did not, you remained on the range until you did or it was too dark to shoot. When you are provided good training, surrounded by good shooters and expected to shoot well, you learn to shoot well.
Video is very good for seeing and understanding! Thanks, Malabar!
My pleasure. Hope it was helpful
tk
Quote from: Guntuckian on June 18, 2013, 10:48:56 PM
Video is very good for seeing and understanding! Thanks, Malabar!
Quote from: jmdavis on June 18, 2013, 10:27:57 PM
If they are good enough, they have the opportunity to shoot on the Summer team at Quantico. There they go from shooting military expert scores of 80% to shooting High Power Master and High Master Scores of 94% and 97%. They do this through a training schedule that has them working 8 or more hours a day. At the end of the shooting season they take this knowledge back to their units where it is sometimes accepted and other times ignored.
Shooting in the Creedmoor Cup this year I was squadded beside a Retired Marine who had been on the team in the 80's and 90's. It was expected that you would clean sitting and rapid prone. If you did not, you remained on the range until you did or it was too dark to shoot. When you are provided good training, surrounded by good shooters and expected to shoot well, you learn to shoot well.
This sounds like the making of my ideal (albeit a selfish way to spend my time :) ) weeks vacation. A private version of the course you describe, total immersion marksmanship training that is more based on field shooting than competition bulls eye stuff. Not having been in the military I can't imagine the ground you could cover beyond the basics of a 2 day KD seed with a week or so with knowledgeable staff.
Quote from: slim on June 18, 2013, 07:50:24 PM
The beauty of an AR with BSZ is it makes KD AQTs stupid easy. If you hold center for the first 3 targets and top of the head for the last, you'll have no problem qualifying.
This^^.
When my M1A sight literally disassembled itself during KD quals, I went to my truck and pulled out my WOA 20" AR. Had not even shot it at D's.
I set rear drum to "0" (it is a custom rear drum and 0 means roughly 8/3) for stage 1-3 per Slim above.
For stage 4, using the standard come ups drilled in my head, less a minute or so for the 50 grainers. I simply held on the head area, but at eye level (as the 50 grainers are faster and fly a bit flatter) on the D's and let er' rip.
Folks often make too much of much of the KD POI and BSZ, etc stuff. Simple it is.
Quote from: smiledochill on June 22, 2013, 02:29:47 PM
This sounds like the making of my ideal (albeit a selfish way to spend my time :) ) weeks vacation. A private version of the course you describe, total immersion marksmanship training that is more based on field shooting than competition bulls eye stuff. Not having been in the military I can't imagine the ground you could cover beyond the basics of a 2 day KD seed with a week or so with knowledgeable staff.
Creedmoor Cup is High Power as are the Navy's Fleet and All Navy Matches. I shoot both every year. Shooting is 200 yards standing, 200 sitting, 300 rapid fire prone and 600 slowfire prone. You shoot at a 2 to 3 MOA 10 ring and winning scores are generally between 480 and 490 or 500 possible. To relate to the topic at hand. You will lose the match badly if you try to use BSZ.
In the past I ran rifleman bootcamps where all students were already riflemen and decided that they were more interested in KD than 25m. After some assessment and zeroing at 25m, we spent the rest of the week at KD using both centerfire to 500 yards and rimfire to 300 yards.
Quote from: TaosGlock on June 22, 2013, 07:38:57 PM
Folks often make too much of much of the KD POI and BSZ, etc stuff. Simple it is.
O0
Yep. Totally true.
Keep it simple. ('Cause it is simple.)
With respect - only seems simple to the people who have done it. To the shooter who has yet to shoot past 100 yards - it is voodoo magic.
Appleseed Instructors (IIT0 and up) - Organize a known distance weekend for your local cadre at least yearly. If u are not well practiced at KD, seek out a willing MI/SI or even a well seasoned red hat, with KD experience. I have a solid KD POI, complete with instructor outline and hand outs for students (covers BSZ in fine detail) - just PM me with your Email addy. You don't even have to have D targets, as u can make them, or get copies at any blue print shop.
Barring that - PM me and I will find u someone to run it or do so myself. Just as there is no way to achieve your full marksmanship potential without dry fire, there is no way to be the best instructor u can be without shooting KD personally. I shot my first NRA competition at 600 yards and while apprehensive, I had a good mentor who knew exactly what my rifle required in come ups to make hits at 100, 200, 300 and 600 yards. Seeing that spotter disc in the nine ring at 600 yards makes you realize that it is simple with a little instruction and practice.
Quote from: PHenry on June 23, 2013, 11:06:21 AM
With respect - only seems simple to the people who have done it. To the shooter who has yet to shoot past 100 yards - it is voodoo magic.
Organize a known distance weekend for your local cadre at least yearly. If u are not well practiced at KD, seek out a willing MI/SI or even a well seasoned red hat, with KD experience. I have a solid KD POI, complete with instructor outline and hand outs for students (covers BSZ in fine detail) - just PM me with your Email addy. You don't even have to have D targets, as u can make them, or get copies at any blue print shop.
I saw the Voodoo aspect as well all across the country. Sometimes even with more experienced shooters. But I think that you bring out something more and that is the instruction side. Just shooting KD AQT after KD AQT is not a recipe to becoming a better KD shooter. But a good 25m zero, some instruction in ballistics, target identification, windage and some line coaching to confirm and improve position, NPOA, and the six steps goes a long way.
There is thinking in shooting. One of the challenges is to avoid too much thinking and not to become overwhelmed. If you are a Rifleman shooting good groups at 25m, you have a good basic understanding of your rifle, you know a little about ballistics and can make simple wind corrections. You will not often have problems shooting a 200 on a KD AQT.
But I do recommend that you shoot paper targets with and for score. After all, Appleseed uses a training doctrine based on the Army when it actually counted score rather than hits. One reason to shoot paper is to improve your shooting (whether for CMP, silhouette, high power or Appleseed KD). If all you are doing is counting 4 and five ring "hits", you are not fully assessing your feedback and assessing feedback is one of the keys to improving. It is fun to ring steel at 500 yards, but it's more fun to shoot a target and see a small group at 500 yards, especially when you are learning.
Quote from: jmdavis on June 23, 2013, 11:29:25 AM
...But I do recommend that you shoot paper targets with and for score. After all, Appleseed uses a training doctrine based on the Army when it actually counted score rather than hits. One reason to shoot paper is to improve your shooting (whether for CMP, silhouette, high power or Appleseed KD). If all you are doing is counting 4 and five ring "hits", you are not fully assessing your feedback and assessing feedback is one of the keys to improving. It is fun to ring steel at 500 yards, but it's more fun to shoot a target and see a small group at 500 yards, especially when you are learning.
I'm not following. When I shot at a recent KD shoot that scored hits only, and my 3's were marked on the witness target, they were just not counted. My misses provided me with feedback.
UL
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on June 23, 2013, 08:53:04 PM
I'm not following. When I shot at a recent KD shoot that scored hits only, and my 3's were marked on the witness target, they were just not counted. My misses provided me with feedback.
UL
You score KD AQT's for the exact same reason that you score regular AQT's and the same reason that marines shoot paper and not popups for qualification. Why don't we just count the 4 and 5 hits for students on the aqt? I can understand shooting steel in some situations and sometimes that's all that you have. That's fine. But if I have the option to shoot paper I do so and I keep score.
Here's an example. Let's say that you have 36 hits. Do you really know which are 4,5,V? How big was the group for sitting? How about offhand or prone? You could shoot 36 hits as 10,8,8,10 and that could translate into a 40,32,32,80 on an aqt. 184 doesn't equal 200 but it is a possible outcome. Let's say that you shoot 34 hits which I think is the rifleman score. That's an 80% hit somewhere in the 4 or 5 or V. But again it doesn't necessarily equal a 200 on the KD AQT.
When I mark my book, you can bet that I know what and where that 10 or 9 or 8 was. I don't just know the total of the number of shots, I know the breakdown as well. It's marked in a way to show me group size. At the end of the stage, you can bet that I know my sight dope and windage for that day and that range and mark them down along with misc weather.
Here's what the best shooter that I have ever personally known had to say about things like this. Actually it's the experience of a young Marine who that shooter was helping back in the 1970's. The shooter passed away 14 years ago and that young Marine is now retired and one of the best M14/M1 men in the country.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=21263.0
What's really awesome is Appleseed is not a match.
Hits count! O0
Hit's do count. But I think that I've noticed numbers on the D-targets. I also recall scoring several thousand AQT's. Then too there is the fact that there is a Rifleman score for a KD AQT of 200. I shot for score on the KD AQT, so did every Appleseed Senior Instructor. As a matter of fact, scoring at least a 200 on the KD AQT was a prerequisite for promotion to SI.
Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to why one would not want to score KD AQT's, especially when one has access to a KD range and pits.
Quote from: jmdavis on June 23, 2013, 10:42:19 PM
Here's an example. Let's say that you have 36 hits. Do you really know which are 4,5,V? Yes I do. How big was the group for sitting? I know this. How about offhand or prone? I know that also.
Maybe how you do hits counts is different from how they did it at the shoot I went to.
Here's what the best shooter that I have ever personally known had to say about things like this. Actually it's the experience of a young Marine who that shooter was helping back in the 1970's. The shooter passed away 14 years ago and that young Marine is now retired and one of the best M14/M1 men in the country.
I admire those men and appreciate their service to our country, but I have no reason to be as good as Carlos Hathcock. I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion.
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on June 24, 2013, 12:12:04 AM
Quote from: jmdavis on June 23, 2013, 10:42:19 PM
Here's an example. Let's say that you have 36 hits. Do you really know which are 4,5,V? Yes I do. How big was the group for sitting? I know this. How about offhand or prone? I know that also.
Maybe how you do hits counts is different from how they did it at the shoot I went to.
Here's what the best shooter that I have ever personally known had to say about things like this. Actually it's the experience of a young Marine who that shooter was helping back in the 1970's. The shooter passed away 14 years ago and that young Marine is now retired and one of the best M14/M1 men in the country.
I admire those men and appreciate their service to our country, but I have no reason to be as good as Carlos Hathcock. I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion.
I am working on the belief that all 4's and 5's were counted as hits. The number was totaled and if it exceeded 80% of 40 shots (32 hits) you qualified. But one could shoot 32- 4's and still qualify by the 80% rule while not even coming close to 80% of the possible score (200). This was originally discussed as an alternate qualification for KD (as were qualifications at some reduced ranges). The idea was to shoot steel in the shape of D targets of the size of the 4 and 5 rings. Shooting at the steel offers no opportunity to score as anything other than hit or miss. I like shooting steel sometimes. It can be faster.
Paper on the other hand does offer that opportunity and the range at Atterbury is equipped with pits that allow each target to be scored.
Let's face it, no one on this topic is as good as Gunny Hathcock. Most of us are too old, fat and blind to even come close. But that wasn't the point. The point is that when one of the best combat and competition shooters in the country offers information, one would be well advised to listen to it and make a personal determination as to whether one could gain from it. I don't care whether you follow the advice or not. I made my determination and I have several books of data for a variety of rifles ranging from muzzle loaders to match rifles.
Here's a story for you... Once long ago I was teaching KD at an RBC that was attended by a variety of instructors. I noticed that one of these instructors had his BSZ and come ups written on the side of his M1A fiberglass stock. I was impressed. I think that we would all agree that is good thing. The problem was that he wasn't using that ammunition and he had no records of the ammunition he was shooting (though he had used it before). In other words, he had no zero and no comeups. It's one thing to have no information, it's another completely to WORK to have no information because one didn't choose to take the time to write it down. Feel free to do it however you want. I made my choice.
Quote from: jmdavis on June 24, 2013, 12:29:30 AM
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on June 24, 2013, 12:12:04 AM
Quote from: jmdavis on June 23, 2013, 10:42:19 PM
Here's an example. Let's say that you have 36 hits. Do you really know which are 4,5,V? Yes I do. How big was the group for sitting? I know this. How about offhand or prone? I know that also.
Maybe how you do hits counts is different from how they did it at the shoot I went to.
Here's what the best shooter that I have ever personally known had to say about things like this. Actually it's the experience of a young Marine who that shooter was helping back in the 1970's. The shooter passed away 14 years ago and that young Marine is now retired and one of the best M14/M1 men in the country.
I admire those men and appreciate their service to our country, but I have no reason to be as good as Carlos Hathcock. I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion.
I am working on the belief that all 4's and 5's were counted as hits. The number was totaled and if it exceeded 80% of 40 shots (32 hits) you qualified. But one could shoot 32- 4's and still qualify by the 80% rule while not even coming close to 80% of the possible score (200). This was originally discussed as an alternate qualification for KD (as were qualifications at some reduced ranges). The idea was to shoot steel in the shape of D targets of the size of the 4 and 5 rings. Shooting at the steel offers no opportunity to score as anything other than hit or miss. I like shooting steel sometimes. It can be faster.
Paper on the other hand does offer that opportunity and the range at Atterbury is equipped with pits that allow each target to be scored.
We did not shoot steel at Atterbury. We shot paper, and 3s, 4s and 5s were marked on a witness target, but only 4s and 5s counted for score. Are we talking past each other?
UL
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on June 24, 2013, 12:36:41 AM
We did not shoot steel at Atterbury. We shot paper, and 3s, 4s and 5s were marked on a witness target, but only 4s and 5s counted for score. Are we talking past each other?
UL
I don't think so. You counted all 4's and 5's as hits and marked them on a redcoat, correct? Then you counted the number of hits and based on the hits (4's and 5's) determined qualification 32 hits was the minimum to qualify. Is that what you did?
Now tell me if you were already counting the 3's, 4's and 5's why wouldn't you just count the score exactly like the 25m AQT? If you shot over 200, you qualified. If not, you tried again.
By the way, you will not find a better opportunity to practice the "Rifleman's Dance, " than shooting at a KD range with pits and pullers. It's way better than watching the dirt kick up in front of a target. The feedback of the process is excellent, and you can end such a day with excellent information on your zeroes in multiple lighting and weather conditions.
Quote from: jmdavis on June 24, 2013, 12:09:46 AMPerhaps someone can enlighten me as to why one would not want to score KD AQT's,
Because it's not a match. It's not about a score. It's not about getting 90% of 10 ring hits or being double distinguished. It's not about qualifying one time and getting a piece of flair or new title.
It's not a hoop to jump through. It's a trade to be learnt.
When I see a shooter with an information table on the side of their rifle I think it's really cool that they're taking the time and making the effort to get the dope for their system. And then I wonder why they haven't memorized a field-expedient method of getting "close enough." Can that shooter pick up my rifle and make hits with it?
Can he take "match grade Tula" off the shelves of Wal-Mart and put it into a man-sized target at 500 yards with an unmodified, used rifle?
Can he do it in the rain? Can he do it when it's 90 degrees outside and he's carried his gear all day?
The marksmanship standard Appleseed is after isn't about a score. It's not about hardware. :wb:
Quote from: slim on June 24, 2013, 01:02:09 AM
Quote from: jmdavis on June 24, 2013, 12:09:46 AMPerhaps someone can enlighten me as to why one would not want to score KD AQT's,
Because it's not a match. It's not about a score. It's not about getting 90% of 10 ring hits or being double distinguished. It's not about qualifying one time and getting a piece of flair or new title.
It's not a hoop to jump through. It's a trade to be learnt.
When I see a shooter with an information table on the side of their rifle I think it's really cool that they're taking the time and making the effort to get the dope for their system. And then I wonder why they haven't memorized a field-expedient method of getting "close enough." Can that shooter pick up my rifle and make hits with it?
Can he take "match grade Tula" off the shelves of Wal-Mart and put it into a man-sized target at 500 yards with an unmodified, used rifle?
Can he do it in the rain? Can he do it when it's 90 degrees outside and he's carried his gear all day?
The marksmanship standard Appleseed is after isn't about a score. It's not about hardware. :wb:
So what you are saying is that by dispensing with the scoring of KD AQT's and instead using a pass or fail 80% hits basis you are better teaching the trade of Marksmanship. Is that correct? Because if you think that, you are moving Appleseed in the same direction that the army moved around the time of Vietnam. You know the time when they stopped using the methods that Appleseed uses.
They qualify based hits too. You shoot popups for hits (which has never been used to determine KD qualification for Appleseed). And I can guarantee you that I can shoot one sighter, adjust an A1 front sight with a pocket knife on a bus from the zero range to the KD range and still manage a score of 32 with a rack grade rifle and 55gr ball. For some reason that accomplishment never meant as much to me as shooting a 211 that first time at a Mini-Appleseed in front of all of the Virginia Instructors who were also shooting.
Then again that Mini-AS was being taught by someone who had gone to the trouble to earn two distinguished badges. The first in 1969 and the second in 2003. Someone who taught us how to shoot and how to teach. Someone who encouraged us to learn from a variety of sources, to think and to practice. Some of that was shooting, some was story telling, some was teaching. But none of it was about badges or patches or hair do's or hats. It was about learning to be the best that we could be.
As for the Marksmanship standard not being about score, why does it take a 210 to earn a rifleman patch? And doesn't it take a certain number of hits to shoot a KD rifleman score? In both cases there's a score.
Guys, there's a strong element of "9mm vs .45" in this debate, and I won't suggest anyone cease enjoying themselves, as it's possible there will emerge grist for coming to some framework allowing for both approaches.
My gut feeling is that we in Appleseed score; that the "hits count" approach is the "alternate/substitute" - workable but less desirable - and used only when time, facilities or other factors require it. An acceptable substitute, but still a substitute.
However, there's at least three interrelated issues to consider here: marksmanship training, Appleseed training, and Appleseed Mission.
If you add in the personal element - someone's personal ambitions and goals, and even his understanding, assuming he's a volunteer - of what AS is about, then there's a fourth element to consider.
BTW, jm, I read the link you posted earlier. Interesting, but let's understand that the approach by Hathcock is the lesson, not his specific technique. The approach is to know your rifle in the context of anticipated use - in the example in the link - as a sniper/hunting tool - which is not AS.
The lesson he gives us is to sight in your rifle for the kind of shooting you'll be doing - which on the AQT is multiple shots from a warm, dirty barrel.
But warm and dirty, cold and clean, and cold and dirty zeros - to the extent they vary - are of interest to those who are after 1-2 MOA accuracy (which is the standard Hathcock was aiming for, I think), and not so much to those of us who aim for 4 MOA using rack-grade rifles and surplus or ball ammo.
Given those conditions/standards/anticipated uses, I suspect Hathcock would have adopted a zeroing process closer to what we all currently do.
Yes, we all want to shoot as accurately as we can. But as we can see from the months-long zeroing procedure followed by Hathcock, we cannot get 'hung up' on it, because of the needs of teaching rifle marksmanship to a LOT of Americans, in a short period of time.
But let's not hang our heads over teaching that 4 MOA standard. An army trained in AS methods, and to AS standards, and capable of AS standards of accuracy, would be a mighty army indeed. In the military world of today, such an army would be considered as an army of snipers, and greeted with awe and fear... O0
In any competition, the only guy who gets really screwed is the winner.
All of the losers have the opportunity to learn something about themselves, to set goals, and to improve.
This is good for society, and for each individual.
To make it up to the poor winner, we give him some bauble or other, learn as much as we can from how he managed to win, and hope he's smart enough to find another competitive venue where he isn't always the winner, and can join the rest of us losers in becoming better.
I raced sailboats before doing Appleseed. There are local club races, the single design circuit, and at the very top, the America's cup. Everyone can learn something from observing the America's cup, but realistically, for most people, a local club will be where they win a few, lose some, and actually learn how to race.
As a new shooter when I came into Appleseed, the AQT where hits count is good enough for me. I've got plenty of room to improve. I admire and want to learn from those who are (at least from my current perspective) hyper-skilled, especially when they are willing to pass this skill on.
My goal is to be an American Rifleman: someone who can use his rifle to defend himself, his family, his community and his country, and to pass that on, both the American part, and the Rifleman part. That means, for me at least, no more sailboat racing on weekends, and not investing the time and effort to become a highly skilled High Power long distance shooter.
But I am very thankful for those who do invest that effort, and then pass it on to the rest of us. i get the benefit of their experience and skill, for a fraction of the cost. I appreciate the teamwork!
QuoteBTW, jm, I read the link you posted earlier. Interesting, but let's understand that the approach by Hathcock is the lesson, not his specific technique. The approach is to know your rifle in the context of anticipated use - in the example in the link - as a sniper/hunting tool - which is not AS.
No arguements here. The point is to learn your tool. The way Gunny Hathcock taught Gus, as pointed out in the story, is using the same basic methods he taught the Marines at MTU and at USMC Sniper School. But the important thing is to have a mastery of the tool that you are using. Whether that tool is used for 55 second sitting stages, hunting, or shooting steel.
QuoteBut let's not hang our heads over teaching that 4 MOA standard. An army trained in AS methods, and to AS standards, and capable of AS standards of accuracy, would be a mighty army indeed. In the military world of today, such an army would be considered as an army of snipers, and greeted with awe and fear...
Absolutely. It would be just like Belieu Wood and the Marines in WWI. But the key is methods and
STANDARDS. Without standards and goals we are wasting ammunition. Virtually no one can afford to waste ammunition these days.