Hi!
After some well deserved nudging from Ninsho, I've been trying to rectify my not-really-understanding of KD. After pouring over the manual and scribbling the margins a bit, I think I've got it figured out - but I'd like to find a worksheet or worksheet application - something that says for instance -
"assuming a 300 yard zero on a 20" AR15, calculate distance and wind effects for the following conditions..."
... then a set of answers to check my math at the end.
I'm certain that's gotta exist - any favorite recommendations?
I don't know if we have a quiz but I'll drop a question (or two) on you - (Using your rifle and also)
Assuming you have a front sight post that's 8 MOA and you read your man-sized target to be half the width of the front sight post, how many MOA would you need to come up to hit your target?
Bonus - If you didn't have time to adjust your sights and had to use Tennessee Elevation, where would you hold?
Bonus Bonus - You read a 10 mph wind coming from your 9 O'Clock. How much wind dope - and which direction - would you apply?
Bonus Bonus Bonus - If you didn't have time to adjust your sights and had to use Kentucky Windage, where would you aim?
Huzzah! This is almost as fun as getting a 6ft long slender box in the mail and unwrapping it piece by piece like Ralphie on Christmas morning!
You are on a hill looking down that is at a 45 degree slope. You laser the distance to a Zombie at 720 yards.
He is moving at at a normal walk of 4 fps 90 degrees perpendicular to you.
The wind is blowing through the area at 20 mph right into the Zombies face. Zombie is 12" wide.
Remember you need to make a head shot on a Zombie. But lets assume this Zombie only needs a body shot.
Using your open sighted M1A with NATO ball what is the yardage your rear sight (elevation) will be set on?
How many inches (using adjusted point of aim) in front of him do you hold?
Let's keep it simple to understand the concepts.
Hint:
Use standard M1A come ups for NATO Ball.
For gravitational distance use the FBI's simplified 45/70 slope rule.
Assume a lead of 6" per 100 yards to simplify things.
Oh cool! Thank you!
Let's see - showing my work on question one ...
QuoteI don't know if we have a quiz but I'll drop a question (or two) on you - (Using your rifle and also)
Assuming you have a front sight post that's 8 MOA and you read your man-sized target to be half the width of the front sight post, how many MOA would you need to come up to hit your target?
1/2 an 8MOA front sight post = measured width of 4MOA.
Assume the man-sized target to be 20" wide (for the sake of easy math)
If it appears to be 4MOA wide, then it is 500 yds to the target. (1MOA@500yds=5", 4MOA@500yds=20")
Assuming a 300 yard zero and an M1A firing standard ball, come-ups are 3 (3=>4) and 4 (4=5) - so seven MOA.
I need to adjust my M1A sights seven (1-MOA) clicks up to hit the target.
QuoteBonus - If you didn't have time to adjust your sights and had to use Tennessee Elevation, where would you hold?
7MOA @500 yds = 35"
Assuming a man-sized silhouette target, setting the front sight post about the one foot or a little more above the crown of the "head" should result in a center-mass hit. Holding just at the crown of the head or a half-head higher should still result in a "torso" hit and be more easily repeatable.
QuoteBonus Bonus - You read a 10 mph wind coming from your 9 O'Clock. How much wind dope - and which direction - would you apply?
Formula is 1MOA per 10 mph per 100 yds. We are at 500 yards, so 5MOA adjustment.
Wind is at 90 degrees, so it is calculated at full value.
I need to adjust my sights 5 (1MOA) clicks left to hit the target.
(moving the rear aperature left will move my POI to the left to counter the wind drift)
QuoteBonus Bonus Bonus - If you didn't have time to adjust your sights and had to use Kentucky Windage, where would you aim?
5MOA adjustment @ 500 yds = 25"
So hold 25" (or just over one target-width) to the left to impact the target, assuming it remains stationary.
Good?
Also Taos - ah! I don't know the FBI rule. Can you point me to it?
I'll do the problem over lunch. :)
O0
Looks like you have it figured out. Great job!
The key to "getting it" is to be able to work out the math. The key to "instructing it" is to have easy math already worked out and walking the shooters through it. KD is nothing more than IMC on steroids.
I'm so tired of shooting from the golf course. Can't wait till we can shoot moving targets off hillsides and actually instruct folks how to do it. :--- Seems we're moving closer (Pistolseeds) as opposed to practicing "the art of distance shooting." Hopefully threads like this will get us going in that direction again.
A fairly simple read on angle shooting from an expert (that also covers the FBI method) -
http://www.millettsights.com/downloads/ShootingUphillAndDownhill.pdf (http://www.millettsights.com/downloads/ShootingUphillAndDownhill.pdf)
Here's an internet forum thread on moving targets and a few methods to figure it all out -
http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/MovingTargets.htm (http://www.snipercountry.com/hottips/MovingTargets.htm)
In both instances (angle and/or moving target) the beauty of being a Rifleman is you can memorize a set of numbers or a formula that works "good enough" for you and make hits most of the time. All that first round hit probability stuff and pulling out calculators for conditions is for the birds. Make your read, dope your sights, and squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze the trigger. Huzzah!
QuoteYou are on a hill looking down that is at a 45 degree slope. You laser the distance to a Zombie at 720 yards.
He is moving at at a normal walk of 4 fps 90 degrees perpendicular to you.
The wind is blowing through the area at 20 mph right into the Zombies face. Zombie is 12" wide.
Remember you need to make a head shot on a Zombie. But lets assume this Zombie only needs a body shot.
Using your open sighted M1A with NATO ball what is the yardage your rear sight (elevation) will be set on?
How many inches (using adjusted point of aim) in front of him do you hold?
Let's keep it simple to understand the concepts.
Hint:
Use standard M1A come ups for NATO Ball.
For gravitational distance use the FBI's simplified 45/70 slope rule.
Assume a lead of 6" per 100 yards to simplify things.
Okay, let's see.
First, FBI 45-70 rule -
engage any 45 degree target as if it were 70 percent of its actual distance.So 70% of 720 yards = 504 yards.
For easy math, I'm assuming 500 yards.
Assuming a 300 yard zero, thats 3+4= 7 comeups to a 500 yd "gravitational" distance.
(or 35" drop/half body height from my zero if eyeballing it)
Now for windage:
The wind operates on the bullet for the whole 720 yards, not the shorthand "gravitational" 500 yards.
So - 20 MPH * 1MOA/10MPH/100yds * 720 yds = 14.4MOA.
14.4 MOA @ 720 yds = 103.68" = 8.64 feet wind drift to the (let's assume) right.
The wind is blowing into the zombie's face, so... I *add* the lead correction, since I need to counter both the wind blowing my round back behind the zombie, and the lead for the zombie's movement...
That correction is 6"/100 yds = 43.2"
Add those together, and I need to aim 103.68+ 42.2= 146.88" = 12.24 feet ahead of the zombie.
If I'm using Kentucky windage, then that's two zombie-heights ahead of him, give or take. Maybe two and a third if he's short.
(With "Arkansas Elevation" - about one head above his real head should be close to a COM shot.)
If I'm turning wheels, then assuming 1MOA/click - I adjust my sights (for a zombie moving left to right) - (146.88"/ 7.2" per MOA) = approx 20 clicks to the right. And I'm right in between (real answer 20.4) - so perhaps 20 clicks and make up for the missing .5MOA by aiming towards the front quarter of his body, letting the wind carry it 3.6 ish inches back.
Gads.. is that close?
(Assuming eagle eyes that can even see a zombie at 720 yards. :p )
Quote from: Kaylee on June 03, 2013, 08:00:05 PM
QuoteYou are on a hill looking down that is at a 45 degree slope. You laser the distance to a Zombie at 720 yards.
He is moving at at a normal walk of 4 fps 90 degrees perpendicular to you.
The wind is blowing through the area at 20 mph right into the Zombies face. Zombie is 12" wide.
Remember you need to make a head shot on a Zombie. But lets assume this Zombie only needs a body shot.
Using your open sighted M1A with NATO ball what is the yardage your rear sight (elevation) will be set on?
How many inches (using adjusted point of aim) in front of him do you hold?
Let's keep it simple to understand the concepts.
Hint:
Use standard M1A come ups for NATO Ball.
For gravitational distance use the FBI's simplified 45/70 slope rule.
Assume a lead of 6" per 100 yards to simplify things.
Okay, let's see.
First, FBI 45-70 rule - engage any 45 degree target as if it were 70 percent of its actual distance.
So 70% of 720 yards = 504 yards.
For easy math, I'm assuming 500 yards.
Assuming a 300 yard zero, thats 3+4= 7 comeups to a 500 yd "gravitational" distance.
(or 35" drop/half body height from my zero if eyeballing it)
Now for windage:
The wind operates on the bullet for the whole 720 yards, not the shorthand "gravitational" 500 yards.
So - 20 MPH * 1MOA/10MPH/100yds * 720 yds = 14.4MOA.
14.4 MOA @ 720 yds = 103.68" = 8.64 feet wind drift to the (let's assume) right.
The wind is blowing into the zombie's face, so... I *add* the lead correction, since I need to counter both the wind blowing my round back behind the zombie, and the lead for the zombie's movement...
That correction is 6"/100 yds = 43.2"
Add those together, and I need to aim 103.68+ 42.2= 146.88" = 12.24 feet ahead of the zombie.
If I'm using Kentucky windage, then that's two zombie-heights ahead of him, give or take. Maybe two and a third if he's short.
(With "Arkansas Elevation" - about one head above his real head should be close to a COM shot.)
If I'm turning wheels, then assuming 1MOA/click - I adjust my sights (for a zombie moving left to right) - (146.88"/ 7.2" per MOA) = approx 20 clicks to the right. And I'm right in between (real answer 20.4) - so perhaps 20 clicks and make up for the missing .5MOA by aiming towards the front quarter of his body, letting the wind carry it 3.6 ish inches back.
Gads.. is that close?
(Assuming eagle eyes that can even see a zombie at 720 yards. :p )
Good thing that Zombie is 720 yards away.
What do you do if your math is off and you miss?
QuoteGood thing that Zombie is 720 yards away.
What do you do if your math is off and you miss?
Rifleman's Dance and fire again - multiple times.
Quote from: Mutti on June 03, 2013, 08:43:43 PM
QuoteGood thing that Zombie is 720 yards away.
What do you do if your math is off and you miss?
Rifleman's Dance and fire again - multiple times.
My effective range is nowhere near 700 yards. I would hold my fire until the Zombie was within 400 yards. ;)
UL
Double check your M1A windage, many of them are 1/2 MOA for windage and 1MOA for elevation. Also realize that your front sight width may not be correct for another shooter using the same rifle and vice versa.
Instructors might want to go back and read the Boltgun71 AAR and IAAR from the first Ft. Stewart military seed back in 2009 or 2010. At that event working for a week with a group chosen as SDM's and using M4's with ACOGs they were able to make 1st round hits out to 700 yards something like 65% of the time. At least that is my recollection of the writeup.
The next thing (and most important in my opinion) is to actually practice KD at known and unknown distances. If you do this I think that you will find that wind effect is not linear as distance increases. When you get to 600 yards, you really start to experience wind whether you are shooting .223, .30, or .308. Also, get behind a shooter and watch the bullet trace. You will quickly realize that the ballistics are not a bell curve. Logically it makes sense, but many people still draw a curve which looks like the bullet rises to mid point and gradually falls. In reality most of the drop comes in the last 3rd or so of flight.
There are opportunities to shoot 200, 300 and 600 yards in every state virtually every weekend from March through October or November. Get to a local range and try your gear in an HP match. It will improve your ability to shoot in major ways. All you absolutely need is a Rifle, a mat, some ammo and a pair of binocs to spot. You can add as much as you like but those things you need.
Here's a link to a 10 state match schedule put out by ISRA.
http://www.illinoishighpower.org/10-state_schedule/2013%2010%20State,%202013-03-12.pdf
Quote from: jmdavis on June 04, 2013, 12:14:59 AM
There are opportunities to shoot 200, 300 and 600 yards in every state virtually every weekend from March through October or November.
Sadly, not anything in Kentucky like that that I am aware of. Opportunities are few and far between and when available, typically are 100y-300y. If you have some inside information, please let me know.
UL
There's going to be a pretty good KD Quiz just south of Indianapolis the weekend after next. ^:)^
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on June 04, 2013, 12:28:24 AM
Quote from: jmdavis on June 04, 2013, 12:14:59 AM
There are opportunities to shoot 200, 300 and 600 yards in every state virtually every weekend from March through October or November.
Sadly, not anything in Kentucky like that that I am aware of. Opportunities are few and far between and when available, typically are 100y-300y. If you have some inside information, please let me know.
UL
Ft. knox hosts at least one HP match. In addition there are monthly matches at Atterbury and a number of locations in OH as well as Oakridge TN.
http://kysrpa.org/2010/fort-knox-gate-procedures/2013-high-power-match-bulletin
Monthly 200 yard reduced matches in Paducah:
http://www.jprpc.net/disciplines/hipower.htm
Across the Course in Borden, IN
http://www.southernindianarifleandpistolclub.com/home/2013-high-power-rifle-matches
I'm sure that there are others, but I found this with just a few minutes of searching.
Another Indiana opportunity. For those of you that don't know an EIC match is an Excellence in Competition match which can award points toward a Distinguished Badge (you can read the history of the badge here (http://odcmp.com/Competitions/DistinguishedBadges.htm). It is a match shot at 200, 300 and 600 yards.
You fire 10 shots single load at 200 standing in 10 minutes.
Ten shots sitting at 200 starting from standing with a transition, in 60 seconds (mag loaded on an empty chamber).
Ten shots rapid fire prone starting from standing in 70 seconds (mag loaded on an empty chamber).
Twenty shots single load slow fire at 600 yards in a time of 20 minutes.
EIC matches have no sighters. Alibis are allowed but only if you do not attempt to clear the malfunction.
The RMC (Regional Match Course) 80 is an 80 shot across the course match with 2 sighters allowed at each distance.
Each stage is 20 shots + two single load sighters. Same alibi rules as for the EIC.
*****************************
Central Indiana Highpower will be hosting an RMC 80 on Saturday, June 22, followed by an EIC match on Sunday, June 23rd at Camp Atterbury in Edinburgh, IN.
Signup for matches will begin promptly at 0800 in the Asphalt Parking lot across from Range Control just north of Foxfire. For some of you, this may be a change from prior years, when we squadded in the gravel lot near the KD ranges.
Interested shooters, please see www.cihprs.org for more information, and to download SR-1 and Release forms (though these will also be available at squadding).
--Those who plan to attend, you need to have made contact Sue Mogle to be cleared with range control NO LATER than 1200 Tuesday June 18th. If you have not shot a match with us before, I will need your full name, address, rifle type, caliber, and serial number for our roster with RC.
If you wonder if you're still on the roster...better make contact to be sure.
We are very excited to have made some improvements to our wind flag usage on base and it is sure to be an excellent leg match, so bring a new shooter or two and let's put the hammer down on some more points for that Badge!
UL is gonna get his toes wet at Atterbury. That's the word on the street.
The more that you shoot and the more ranges that you shoot on, the better you get. I've heard that from alot of VERY good shooters.
The Internet says real-world experience in the field means nada.
It's all about having the right rifle, ammo, and optic. Without that, you just can't be good. You have to spend big money on your gear or else you can't make hits past 300 yards. Just not possible.
There are really very very few places in Kentucky where one can get past 100 yards, especially Central Kentucky, where most of the population resides. For example, EVERY CMP and NRA match I have shot here, at three private clubs, were at 100 yards only. One range is 1/2 hour west, one is 2 hours east, and one is almost 2 hours south. Not really worth it in my opinion.
I have looked into Ft. Knox and the requirements to get a firearm onto the post are so onerous, it just ain't gonna happen for me. I simply won't submit to it. For most of us regular folks, traveling all over tarnation to shoot long distance in surrounding states is simply not practicable.
As far as "heading to the range", as simple as it sounds for some folks not familiar with Kentucky, it is NOT a simple matter. Here in Lexington, the closest public range where a person can shoot from positions is over an hour away at a US Forest Service range near Cave Run Lake. There is a state range about 35 minutes from Lexington, but you have to shoot from a bench, through a steel pipe, at 100 yards only (nothing shorter). Such is reality here in central Kentucky when you do not have a nice tract of land of your own. If I had the funds I'd buy a property where I could put in a range and create a DAR.
UL
Batavia, OH is 3 miles further then Ft. Knox (102 vs. 99). Now that is from central Lexington so your mileage may vary. The 10 state list I posted yesterday from ISRA shows an 80 shot Regional Course on June 29, and then August 7th there is a 3x600. This is 3- 20 shot 600 yard matches all shot in one day. It is more prone distance shooting than many people get in months or years. Aug. 31-1 Sept there is a midrange prone match and an 80 shot Regional Course. Sept 28-29 and 80 shot match followed by an EIC match.
Here's the contact information for Batavia
Miami Rifle & Pistol Club to 600yds. With pits
Paul Wallpe (EIC) (513) 235-0436 highpower@fuse.net
Pete Petronio (XTC) (513) 218-0817 bpetronio@cinci.rr.com
Tom Myers (Mid-Range) (513) 313-3464 ctmyers@cinci.rr.com
Atterbury is 157 miles and Oak Ridge 168.
That's the best that I can come up with. Though I would let you know that the requirements for Atterbury are like those of Ft. Knox.
I'd love to do CMP events...but I'll be too busy Appleseeding.
A couple years ago when I first got into distance shooting I was excited to find out I could shoot leg matches and earn points toward pins to put on my hat. I could become one of the greatest shooters in the whole country, probably the world! Then the reality of what that meant hit me like a ton of bricks. It meant I'd need to spend a lot of time, money, and energy developing myself into a better shooter - and that was a very selfish thing to do.
See, CMP, and all the various other forms of shooting, are individual tasks. They're a very personal sport. Sure, you can help out your fellow shooters and you will undoubtedly pass along what you've learned. But it's not like Appleseed where you can personally reach hundreds, if not thousands, of Americans and help them not only become better shooters, but better people.
The mission is selfless.
There was a post a while back about a feller who asked should he buy a sub-moa rifle or three LTRs. It is the same price, after all. This is precisely the High Power vs. Appleseed debate. Do you want to dedicate your time, effort, energy and resources to being personally good, or do you want to donate that stuff to a cause that's bigger than you?
I'm not knocking CMP, High Power, or any Other-Than-Appleseed shooting. I'm simply asking, would you rather be a sub-moa shooter or live in a country where everyone is a 4 moa shooter?
Quote from: slim on June 04, 2013, 11:46:53 PM
The Internet says real-world experience in the field means nada.
It's all about having the right rifle, ammo, and optic. Without that, you just can't be good. You have to spend big money on your gear or else you can't make hits past 300 yards. Just not possible.
I'm sorry. I did not know. I'll stop doing it until I go buy a $3,000 rifle with $4,000 scope and $90 a box ammo.
>:D
Quote from: slim on June 04, 2013, 11:46:53 PM
The Internet says real-world experience in the field means nada.
It's all about having the right rifle, ammo, and optic. Without that, you just can't be good. You have to spend big money on your gear or else you can't make hits past 300 yards. Just not possible.
I appreciate your humor. So the
internet says "
real-world experience in the field means nada"; and everything they put on the internet is true... and I'm a French model. "Bon Jour" ;D
Slim,
Personal betterment is key to Appleseed isn't it? Do you think that Carlos Hathcock went distinguished for a pin on his hat? Or that he won the Wimbledon cup for a wooden and brass plaque and a picture? He did those things because some people have the need to test and better themselves in ways that others do not.
It takes work and commitment to shoot well enough to earn a distinguished badge. That's why fewer than 25 civilians per year have done so since 1923. At most leg matches a score of at least 470 of 500 (94%) will be required to earn any points and a 470 will often only get you a bronze. Thirty points including at least one silver or gold leg (8 or 10 points) is required to go distinguished. You are limited to no more than 3 matches plus the nationals in any one year. A one time exception to this rule is the intro matches such as the one for Small Arms Firing School. But once a shooter has any points he can no longer shoot those matches for credit.
While the act of shooting is most often an individual sport, matches also often include team matches which are anything but individual. They require individual proficiency, attention to detail, and the ability to work in a team in order to win a match.
Every year the Marine Corps brings shooters to Quantico for its Summer Team. These shooters have qualified as expert or better in Marine Corps Divisional Matches. They arrive at Quantico and spend 8 or more hours a day learning how to really shoot. In a month or two they are shooting Master scores. By the time of the National Matches at Camp Perry, many are shooting High Master Scores. They make those improvements in just a few months.
Civilians with jobs and families generally require longer (years) to achieve that level of improvement and many never can. Many, many shooters have some Distinguished points, but few have the commitment to go the distance and earn the badge. Like a Rifleman patch, you can't earn the badge without skill, dedication and effort.
I would close with the fact that you cannot learn to shoot by talking about shooting. You cannot learn to read wind from a book. You cannot become a good midrange (600 yard ) shooter without practicing shooting at 600 yards. The AQT recognizes the military standard of 80% as Expert or Rifleman. But Expert on the High Power Course requires a minimum of 88%. Master is 94% and high Master is 97%. All of these are with iron sights.
By the way, you don't need to shoot sub-moa to win at high power. You do, however need to put all of your shots in 1 to 2 moa.
For those of you still reading and interested in personal betterment here is an article explaining the basics.
http://www.6mmbr.com/highpowerbasics.html
I will be happy to help anyone with further questions via PM.
Quote from: slim on June 05, 2013, 11:54:37 AM
I'd love to do CMP events...but I'll be too busy Appleseeding.
A couple years ago when I first got into distance shooting I was excited to find out I could shoot leg matches and earn points toward pins to put on my hat. I could become one of the greatest shooters in the whole country, probably the world! Then the reality of what that meant hit me like a ton of bricks. It meant I'd need to spend a lot of time, money, and energy developing myself into a better shooter - and that was a very selfish thing to do.
See, CMP, and all the various other forms of shooting, are individual tasks. They're a very personal sport. Sure, you can help out your fellow shooters and you will undoubtedly pass along what you've learned. But it's not like Appleseed where you can personally reach hundreds, if not thousands, of Americans and help them not only become better shooters, but better people.
The mission is selfless.
There was a post a while back about a feller who asked should he buy a sub-moa rifle or three LTRs. It is the same price, after all. This is precisely the High Power vs. Appleseed debate. Do you want to dedicate your time, effort, energy and resources to being personally good, or do you want to donate that stuff to a cause that's bigger than you?
I'm not knocking CMP, High Power, or any Other-Than-Appleseed shooting. I'm simply asking, would you rather be a sub-moa shooter or live in a country where everyone is a 4 moa shooter?
And this, folks, is why we love Slim. -:)
I manage the taping of our city's public meetings. I can get more people on a rainy firing line in one afternoon than I can at all the city council meetings in a year. That's an epic fail on our part as citizens.
When I ask people to better themselves during the benediction, I ask them to go to a board of public works and safety meeting, to mentor a child, to work a polling site, or to run for school board. I will worry about my scores when the council chambers are standing room only for every meeting.
YHJ
To get back to Kaylee's question. If I might make a suggestion, wait for the higher skill level problems. Appleseed targets are not quartering away at 10mph. Work first to get to the point you can shoot 4 MOA on demand, every time, all the time. Then look up folks who can get you to 2 MOA, then worry about shooting uphill and down hill.
While you are doing that, get the trajectory of your rifle, prove it at the range, then memorize it backwards and forwards until you absolutely know the trajectory out to distance and can demonstrate it. The rest of your exercises will be simplicity by the time you know that.
YHJ
It's funny that the immediate assumption faced by someone who can shoot better than 4 MOA and is willing to help others learn to do so, is that he must be selfish. I don't generally see that self-righteousness on the High Power Course. As a matter of fact I have experienced the opposite.
Some of the best shooters in the country and indeed the world have been willing to spend their time helping me to find solutions to problems. They include High Power and Long Range (that means 800,900 and 1000 yards) champions, national record holders, champion Palma shooters and Coaches, Army and Marine Snipers, smallbore champions, silhouette champions, and double and triple distinguished shooters.
Competitive shooting is a young mans game in most cases. I know for a fact that it is not easy to start at the age of 47. If an instructor doesn't want to shoot high power. Don't shoot it. But stop trying to convince others that it is not worthy of their time or they are somehow part of the problem in America if they do so.
In 2009 Appleseed discovered that it's instructors lacked the ability to shoot and teach KD well. Some MI's and SI's started running KD courses to both teach KD and to teach instructors HOW to teach KD. We ran events out to 400 and 500 yards largely using the materials developed for Rifleman Bootcamps when the program was beginning. At most of the KD events that I worked I would say that the qualification rate was about the same at KD for instructors as it was for students at events. I dare say that rate has not changed significantly in the past year and a half.
What might be the height of irony is that we tell students that shooting is a perishable skill and they must practice. But some instructors then turn around ridicule or insult those who shoot often, shoot well and do practice.
The question that originated this topic was how does one test one's KD skills. The answer is to shoot KD. Talking about shooting won't make you a good shooter. The most available venue for that is not through RWVA, it is through CMP and/or NRA. They are the ones out there practicing shooting at the "Rifleman's Quarter Mile" and further regularly across the country.
Quote from: jmdavis on June 06, 2013, 01:06:32 AMsome instructors then turn around ridicule or insult those who shoot often, shoot well and do practice.
I'm only ridiculing those who don't Appleseed anymore.
And yes, if you're going to individual shooting competitions - even team events - but don't have time for Appleseed then you are being selfish. It's that simple. CMP, High Power, Long Range, Palma, Sporting Clays, 3-Gun, IDPA, IPSC, etc., are personal shooting events. Sure you get some camaraderie, sure you're participating in the shooting sports and undoubtedly there will be some "passing it on" going on, but you're not out there to save the country. You're not working toward the goal of making America better for posterity. You're working toward making yourself a better shooter.
It's not about the shooting.
I'm not saying it's wrong to go to matches. I'm not saying it's wrong to make yourself a better shooter. And I'm darn sure not trying to insult you (or anyone else who's a great shooter!) but I am trying to make the point that all that time and energy would be better spent out on the Appleseed trail teaching others the fundamentals.
The original post was about conceptualizing the way KD works. You're absolutely correct that we have a real problem with the knowledge (and application) gap going from running a .22LR at 25m to making consistent hits at 500 yards. I really wish we had double and triple distinguished shooters who had time to help us out instead of going to their selfish competitions every weekend. Perhaps you could put in a good word for us?
Please stop it.
First, Kaylee asked an excellent question, and this has taken her thread far off course. Go start your own thread!
Second, no matter how you slice it, this hijack is NOT bailing. (Kaylee's topic was about learning how to become a better instructor, which IS bailing.)
Third, "it's not about the shooting" is absolutely true, but that's what we do, and that's what the "Skill Sets of Shooting" board is here for.
Fourth, the statement "I'm only ridiculing those who don't Appleseed anymore." is totally inappropriate here. If Appleseed is about preserving Liberty, then we don't get to ridicule those who make different choices about how to use their precious, sacred Liberty.
In general, that sort of attitude is arguably one of the greatest causes of attrition. We're all here to help one another, not to ridicule one another.
More specifically, the user that comment is apparently addressed towards was an extremely active instructor for many years, and continues to contribute to our mission in several other ways. The fault lies with the organization, with its leadership, with every member who ridicules other members, and with the fact that too many of us seem unwilling to stop such behavior.
Think about it. "Those who don't Appleseed anymore" means that you're also ridiculing some of the greatest instructors Appleseed ever had, the folks who built this program into what it is today.
Fifth, let's be clear. Appleseeding is NOT the "only" way to save our country, it's simply one of the better available options. Our mission isn't to make every American an Appleseed volunteer, it's to make every American a Rifleman. The benediction asks people to get involved in America, not just in Appleseed. We certainly need more volunteers, but Appleseed is a means to an end, not an end in itself.
Finally, PLEASE don't respond here! This thread already has a topic, and a good one. Please either stick to Kaylee's topic or go start your own thread. The moderators already have enough other things to do.
It seems that you are twisting slims words a bit. He didnt call anyone but himself selfish. My guess would be that is because that is how he felt. He called the mission selfless. Which I think we all agree it is.
The only question I have really seen posed is one of finding a balance between spending time shooting high power as a kd option or spending more time on the trail. We all have made a choice in that regard and surely one shouldnt be surprised to see so many advocate the trail when they find themselves on the forum for the trail.
What I find most surprising is that kaylee lives in alaska , cant find a place to shoot kd, and the 45 degree angle question means she would have to shoot from a few hundred feet above the SearsTower.
Edit: maybe I am wrong about what slim thought.
Quote from: SPQR on June 07, 2013, 01:18:39 AM
...and the 45 degree angle question means she would have to shoot from a few hundred feet above the SearsTower.
Probably not the
worst place to be when the zombies come, but certainly not my first choice, either. ;)
Kaylee, seems like you have a good grasp on the core material which you will solidify and fine-tune in application. Keep it up!
To those who have served the Appleseed mission, those who continue to refine their skills and knowledge at various venues, and to those balancing their lives, passions, duties and obligations to posterity as responsible free citizens... I salute you.
QuoteWhat I find most surprising is that kaylee lives in alaska , cant find a place to shoot kd, and the 45 degree angle question means she would have to shoot from a few hundred feet above the SearsTower.
Kaylee now lives in the *ahem* Cradle of Liberty, smack between Menotomy and Lexington.
Great for the history, not so much for the getting out and shooting.
But thanks to Ninsho's KD class, about to get a chance to apply practice to theory! :))
For Liberty!
When you are old enough the Cantab Lounge in Cambridge has awesome fish and chips and they play Bluegrass on Tuesdays. I once heard a band of 60 something Bluegrass guys play young MC's Bust a Move. It was pretty epic.
Despite the seemingly unfriendly environment you find yourself, you have a great opportunity to be an ambassador for the gun culture and turn some people's minds around. Looks like ol Mass has 7 shoots left this year. Imagine the minds you could work upon if they all sold out with new shooters.
(And sniff around and find out if there is any place in Mass where you can actually take a shot from an elevation 200 meters higher than the One World Trade Center at a down angle of 45 degrees and I will fly out there and help with the math. )
Quote from: Transform on June 06, 2013, 10:09:55 PMPlease stop it.
I like how you tell us to stop then go on a diatribe of what's wrong with my postings. Way to be the bigger person. And way to stick to topic!
I spent the afternoon doing some OTAS (Other Than Appleseed Shooting) and when I got home I put my gear in the garage and looked up at the media tower down the street from my house. I got to thinking about how high it was, how far away it was, and how much of an angle it would be to shoot the walks on various levels. Just standing there trying to figure out how much of an angle it was proved to be more difficult than I'd imagined.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/bradleysettle/Tower1_zpsa0041087.jpg)
I looked at the fence in front of me, the rooftops of the houses around, and thought about how far away the tower was. I didn't know how tall it was either so I had no real hard data to go with. All I knew was straight in front of me was 0 degrees and straight up was 90. Somewhere in the middle was 45. Was the first deck 45? Was the second? Top of the tower? And add to the confusion that Cincinnati is largely on hills. Harder to get perspective when standing on uneven ground.
I had no freaking clue. But, I figured I could find some hard data and go from there.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/bradleysettle/Tower2_zps022371b3.jpg)
I put a level on the door frame and much to my surprise (75 year old? garage) it was perfectly level. I put a piece of tape at 90 and one at 45. I kind of eyeballed the door "protractor" and it looked like the 45 was pointing about 3/4 of the way up the tower. Once I got down "behind the sights" it was really more like it was pointing at the top of the tower. I was surprised there was such a difference in just that little bit of change in perspective versus that little change in angle. What I would've guessed the top of the tower being more like 60 degrees turned out to be more like 45.
Hmmm.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/bradleysettle/Tower3_zps48e06d4c.jpg)
Lastly, I tilted my level to the 45 degree bubble and when "looking down the sights" it was completely over the tower. Well, I'll be. They keep telling me there are very few things that are more than 45 degrees - and if they are they're probably very close to you - but I didn't believe them. It's counter-intuitive. If I was downtown, and shooting off a rooftop to the street below or ... oh yeah, it'd still be really close, regardless of the angle.
When you look "up" at something tall you have to look way, way, waaaaay up to see the top. It seems like the angle is very steep. But, imagine this.... directly in front of you is zero. Straight up in the air above you is 90. Now, hold your hand half-way between both of those. Still pretty freakin high, isn't it?
Seems it's just pretty hard to get more than a 45 degree angle on something and if it is more, you're going to be within your BSZ so it won't matter all that much anyway. So you're off by a few yards. Well, within your BSZ you're holding true anyway. Don't worry about it.
Doing a little prodding on the interwebz once I got back inside I found that tower is appx. 300 yards from my house and 953 feet tall. Boy that makes the math easy!
Distance from my garage to the tower (squared) + Height of the tower (squared) = Distance from my garage to top of tower (squared). 90,000 + 90,000 = 180,000. Square root of 180,000 = 424. If I had a laser range finder and hit the top of the tower it would be appx. 424 yards. Now, since I'm shooting at a 45 degree angle I'd have to multiply that distance by the cosine of the angle (cos 45 = .70) and... wait for it.... we end up with 297, or the approximate lateral distance to the base of the target.
In other words, I could've forgotten all about the distance to the top and just pretended I was taking a 300 yard shot since the target is only 300 yards away.
Angle shooting... it just don't matter for a Rifleman.
Early on in my Appleseed days I was able to ask a Distinguished shooter how to shoot angles. He told me, "Don't worry about how far up or down the hill it is. Just figure out the lateral distance it is away from you and shoot for that distance." Like everything else he told me.... he was right.
And since I'm bored, let's say I was shooting
The platform 1/2 way up the tower. (477 ft. high) I'd end up with a shot of about 315 yards.
For the platform 1/4 of the way up (238 ft) I'd end up making a shot of 310 yards.
Exact math of 953 feet to the top and 45 degree (cosine of .7) angle gets me a shot of 306 yards.
So, regardless of how high up the tower I'm shooting, I'm still shooting the lateral distance to the base of the target.
KD Question - What would my shot be at the platform 3/4 of the way up?
Your post is nearly verbatim the section on angle shooting Dave put together. Just be the cat. Wait...were you at that shoot?
I was at that shoot... and I'll be at the next one. Huzzah!
45 degrees is easy! Cut a stick the length of from the ground to your eyes while standing. Lay on level ground. Have someone hold the stick upright for you at your feet to sight with. Move closer / farther till top of stick coincides with top of tower / tree / whatever. You now have a 45 deg angle -plus- you know where the top will land when it falls. (Dad knew some about logging as a youngster living in Oregon...)
Use a little sense and logic here folks; don't go up/down hill too much for this little exercise...
jmdavis runs a fine KD event. He knows what he is about, and he has my gratitude for his help & instruction.