I've searched and just can't find anybody else with this question/feeling.
Fresh off my first Appleseed ( http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=35744.0 ), I've noticed that in dry fire practice, I actually FEEL like Hasty is more stable than the loop.
Can that be right?
Sure it can feel like that.
... but it means you're not doing the loop correctly.
Quote from: slim on May 23, 2013, 12:02:33 AM
Sure it can feel like that.
... but it means you're not doing the loop correctly.
I was afraid of that.
It's probably just a matter of not having it tight enough or having your body in a weird index to the target. You did do a turn before sliding it up your support arm, right?
Quote from: Tack Driver on May 22, 2013, 11:39:25 PM
I've noticed that in dry fire practice, I actually FEEL like Hasty is more stable than the loop.
Can that be right?
What position are you practicing? If it's in prone, sitting, or kneeling, the loop should be more stable. If in standing, you'll probably find the hasty to be more stable, since it steadies the unsupported "support" arm in that case.
Things to keep in mind:
1. If you have your sling mounted on your rifle incorrectly, it won't work. I've seen many slings mounted backwards, so the sling won't tighten onto the arm correctly. For verification, see http://www.ray-vin.com/tech/websling/webslinghelp.htm (http://www.ray-vin.com/tech/websling/webslinghelp.htm).
2. Make sure it's way up on your arm, so that your bicep keeps it from sliding down your arm once it's tight. This even works on scrawny guys like me that don't have any muscles to show.
3. If you can't rest into the sling, so that the entire rifle will stay in place when you remove your trigger hand, it's not tight enough. If it feels like your hand is going to fall off from lack of circulation, it's too tight. Snug, not painful.
There are other aspects to it, most of which I've needed in-person help to see myself, but those are the main points that can trip you up.
First, I'd like to thank Tack Driver for raising his hand to ask this question. It shows your desire to learn and the thoughtfulness you are applying to it. I wish every student at Appleseed would do that. I also commend you for continuing with dry-fire practice. I wonder how many students actually do that following their first Appleseeds.
Simple mechanics prove that the loop is more stable in seated, kneeling, and prone: The loop, properly tightened, solidly connects the rifle to your upper arm, whose weight is supported by the leg bones, so the burden is transferred directly to the ground via your bones. The hasty sling, because it can slide on your arm, is not such a solid connection. Hasty does work better standing because it transfers much of the weight directly to your chest (via the butt of the stock), so that your support shoulder is not holding the full weight of the rifle.
One detail that I noticed in my own shooting, as well as coaching on the line, is that proper placement of the loop on the arm is critical not only as to height, but also the orientation of the loop. You want the tension of the sling to act as a cam, so that the tension actually tightens the loop. If the M-ring is set too close towards your body, the tension will pull the loop open. If it is set too far outside, the loop will rotate on your arm, loosening the sling. You might experiment with this in your dry-fire practice.
If you have a long enough loose end once your sling is in position, you can slide the keeper down almost onto the loop and fasten it there - this helps prevent the loop from loosening, and positions the keeper away from your support hand.
Gentlemen, thank you for your help. Yes, I should have clarified. Hasty has only struck me as feeling better in the standing position.
Bob, I struggled with the loop loosening during my Appleseed and one of my instructors (all of which were great) helped me with exactly the information you describe.
Quote from: Tack Driver on May 23, 2013, 09:20:33 AM
Gentlemen, thank you for your help. Yes, I should have clarified. Hasty has only struck me as feeling better in the standing position.
Bob, I struggled with the loop loosening during my Appleseed and one of my instructors (all of which were great) helped me with exactly the information you describe.
Very good.
As implied in the answers above, hasty is best in standing because there are multiple points of contact of the sling to the body under when the rifle is properly mounted and the sling is under tension. Hand/wrist, upper arm, chest...in the inherently unstable standing position, more points of contact = good.
Also as you mention, the loop sling is only properly applied when the sling is twisted , the j-hook and h-buckly are on top of the arm and facing the target. In this position, under tension the sling pulls tighter around your bicep, sort of like a dog choker collar. The best way to ensure you get it in this position is to make sure the sling h-buckle is facing outward when attached to the buttstock, make your false loop, grab the TOP of the loop and twist towards your trigger side. The sling will end up in the right position and will create a "flat" across your hand. I also flip the keeper from the way the slings are delivered from the manufacturer. That way the back/flat part of the keeper lays across your hand without digging in.
Quote from: Tack Driver on May 23, 2013, 09:20:33 AM
Gentlemen, thank you for your help. Yes, I should have clarified. Hasty has only struck me as feeling better in the standing position.
Kneeling, too. Any time your trigger elbow has no place to go and ends up chicken-winged, you'll like the hasty sling. When the trigger elbow can find a spot to rest, you'll typically find that the hasty sling results in a tendency for the rifle to cant sideways.
Quote from: SteelThunder on May 23, 2013, 09:39:59 AM
As implied in the answers above, hasty is best in standing because there are multiple points of contace of the sling to the body under when the rifle is properly mounted and the sling is under tension. Hand/wrist, upper arm, chest...in the inherently unstable standing position, more points of contact = good.
So, even if I'm still crazy, I'm not crazy about this. ^-^
Quote from: Caliper on May 23, 2013, 10:09:47 AM
Kneeling, too. Any time your trigger elbow has no place to go and ends up chicken-winged, you'll like the hasty sling. When the trigger elbow can find a spot to rest, you'll typically find that the hasty sling results in a tendency for the rifle to cant sideways.
Interesting. I didn't try it kneeling. Makes perfect sense though.
Tack Driver,
Make sure you are using your steady hold factors for your prone dry fire:
Prone Steady Hold Factors
Orientation angle
Approximately 30° (the angle your body makes with respect to the target).
Support hand
The support hand should be relaxed. The rifle should rest on the heel of the hand and lie diagonally along its flat, horizontal, palm and the hand should be open and relaxed. Do not use the term, "Lifeline" to describe this. This will consistently allow the rifle to recoil straight up and back down to a platform that doesn't move. If canting occurs, the rifle may be moved out onto the relaxed fingers.
Notice that some "experienced" shooters will tilt their support hands at a large angle, supporting the rifle with the portion of their hand near their index finger. This requires the use of muscles. Therefore, it should be corrected.
Support elbow
The support elbow should be as far under the rifle as possible, keeping in mind that if the shooter is dry firing there won't be a magazine in the rifle. During live fire they may have a long magazine protruding down and the forearm should just touch the magazine and index there.
Sling
The sling should be snug, with the support hand inserted between the sling and the rifle from the support side, and the loop should be anchored deep into the armpit. In describing the tension in the sling, use the word "SNUG", not tight. The support arm should not be too flat. The upper arm and forearm should form a nice "V", and the sling should form a good triangle with this "V" for enhanced stability. This will also help ensure that the sling won't slip down on the upper arm. Furthermore the support arm should be TOTALLY relaxed so that the sling completely supports the rifle.
Check to make sure the sling doesn't go straight from the rifle to the armpit! This is a common "newbie" error. The sling passing below the hand keeps the rifle in contact with the hand for consistency from shot to shot. Make sure the sling is not too loose or too tight. If the sling is too tight it will cause the rifle to cant, which may tempt the shooter to use muscles to "straighten" the rifle, and of course, muscles should never be used.
Support leg
The support leg should be straight and parallel with the spine.
Check the shooter's foot to ensure that it is not up on the toes and applying pressure that would push the shooter forward, thereby resulting in vertical stringing on the target due to "muscling". The foot should be relaxed and nearly flat on the ground.
Check for canting!
As you transition from the support side to the trigger side, look at the rifle to ensure it is not canted slightly left or right from vertical. If canting is observed, it can most probably be eliminated by moving the rifle out onto the relaxed fingers of the support hand, and again, canting could be caused by the sling being too tight.
Trigger leg
The trigger knee should be drawn up toward the body as high as possible with the knee bent at approximately 90°. The shin should be parallel to the rifle. Experience shows that many shooters hardly ever do this; therefore, the instructor can be very active in correcting this fault.
Trigger elbow
The trigger elbow should be planted with enough weight to prevent displacing the position during recoil.
Trigger handT
he last 3 fingers of the Trigger hand should hold the rifle with a firm "handshake" grip and pull the rifle firmly back into the shoulder pocket.
Look for "Dragging Wood" or other trigger errors at this time. If the shooter is dragging wood, suggest they rotate their hand toward the trigger side with their thumb near that corner of the receiver, or further, and curl their finger in the shape of a "C".
Turkey neck
The neck should be extended so that the head is as far forward as possible. The reason for this is to achieve a consistent cheek weld. Remember, you are introducing a new term to the shooters here, so explain it well. There are 2 key features to achieving a good Turkey neck. Stretch your neck forward and Drop your cheek onto the stock for a good Cheek weld.
The 2 key words are Stretch and Drop (this creates a consistent Sight Picture because the eye relief is constant).
Cheek weld
Recall that in achieving a good Turkey neck the neck was stretched and the cheek was dropped onto the stock. The cheek should be snug against the stock to hold Sight Alignment. This accomplishes Cheek weld. The weld should not change or be moved throughout the entire shot string. The achievement of a good Turkey neck helps to ensure a good, consistent Cheek weld.
Cheek weld IS Sight Alignment! An inconsistent cheek weld, or breaking the Cheek weld, will cause groups to suddenly shift to a different POI).
Remember to show the shooters how to move their body forward or backward, or sideways, to achieve a good Sight Picture, or how to place their NPOA onto the target.
These are the fundamentals.
For some ADVANCED hints, check this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UE8RDSyrJY
That advice to invert & extend is priceless -- it took me about 2 months to get my 50 something muscles stretched enough, but it did come with time.
Then use the dry fire target below to dry fire your AQT:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=9833.msg83227#msg83227
This string describes how to get the most from dry fire:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=34349.msg254314#msg254314
Good luck & best wishes,
fisherdawg
It is not about the weight of the rifle it's about eating recoil.
Quote from: Sly223 on May 23, 2013, 08:31:48 PM
It is not about the weight of the rifle it's about eating recoil.
Actually in sitting and prone, the sling is what holds you up. If you have a good position and are relaxed, the sling keeps you from becoming a puddle on your mat. It does unitize body and rifle and in that way helps with recoil, but you could manage the recoil without the sling. On the other hand if you have a good position and are relaxed, you will find it very difficult to keep that position without the sling.
Junk out with the sling coming off the top of the arm works great. But you can also have the sling coming from beneath the arm with the junk trapped on the inside and shoot good too. That is the method taught by Gary Anderson. Some people think that he knows a few things about shooting. All of that said, I continue to shoot with the clip to the outside and the sling coming over the top of my arm when using the web sling.
Here are a couple of youtube videos by a very good Texas shooter and photographer that are helpful for setting up and using both web and leather slings.
Hasty sling use:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gAso3l7UCU&list=PL4284E1AD05405413
Leather sling use:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaRCFpH27-w
Web Sling use:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRPfj-6bRZM