I'm a 5'3" woman with a Garand and a scoped Mauser that I'd like to get proficient at. When I shoot the Mauser, it slides out of the pocket, and flips to the side. The Garand is better about staying in the pocket, but not much.
If I have the sling tight, the rifle cants, and I have not been able to figure out how to fix it. If I don't have it fairly tight, the rifle feels like it is drifting, and I can't hold it steady. The Mauser's sling is leather, which is thick, and stiff. I certainly wouldn't say that I am relaxed when shooting either of them, and Saturday I developed a profound flinch. I close my eyes before every shot--not just a blink--involuntarily closing, opening well after the shot as I try to get the rifle back in the pocket. It's kind of hard to take a mental snapshot of the crosshairs with your eyes closed.
I can get shots on target, but not well enough to make true "groups". The Garand is easier to get something like a group, but the bolt gun throws me out of NPOA with every shot, which I have to break a bit anyway to work the bolt.
Is it just a matter of dry-firing in position to get my muscles stretched for the bigger rifle? How can I make practice effective so that I get good?
Between the two rifles, I am discouraged at how bad I am shooting, thinking I don't deserve to be called a Rifleman, since I can't make either do what I want them to.
Linda,
The favorite of the rifles I own are my M1 and my Mosin. Both are "big girl" rifles, and carry a bigger "punch" than a .22LR. It's all about becoming comfortable with handling them. We're obviously built different than men, and may have to make some slight changes in our positions, but the basics are all the same. Don't worry about firing off live rounds. Sling up in your living room and do exactly what you did with your .22LR... practice the basics. Build that solid foundation. Once you build that solid foundation, practice dry firing. Once you got that down, go ahead and practice firing off live rounds.
Random Tips:
1) Get yourself some good ear pro that allows you to get a good cheek weld... I have a pair of low profile electronic muffs that work great. Are you anticipating that "big boom", and that's possibly why you're flinching and closing your eyes? Eliminate that sound factor and that may solve some of your issues.
2) Get that trigger leg up nice and high. This will allow you to absorb the recoil of your big girl rifles.
3) Practice working your bolt without breaking your cheek weld... roll to the right, run the bolt, and roll right back into position... verify and fire away.
4) If your having trouble keeping the buttstock in the pocket, despite "fixing" all of the other factors, try getting a lil somethin' grippy on your jacket/buttstock/etc. to help keep it in place.
5) Firm handshake grip, pull it back, but pay attention not to buck out of anticipation
6) I use a USGI web sling on all by guns... keep em nice and tight, as high up above the bicep as possible.
Slipping out of the pocket is fixed by adjusting the rifle stock to you. As you say you are 5'3". The M1 was designed for someone a bit taller. You might want to have the butstock cut back a bit. It's your rifle, it's ok to fit it to you. Or you might try "skate board tape" on the butt.
As to the flinch, DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE, followed by ball & dummy until fixed. Same way we taught you and you teach students.
If the noise is an issue, it is with me after 40 rounds, foam ear plugs under your muffs do wonders.
Bring your rifle to the next shoot (after lots of dry fire) and have a fellow instructor help you with ball & dummy.
2cl
Hi Linda,
Free download:
Townsend Whelen, Suggestions to Military Riflemen, 1909.
I used it to help me score with a bolt. Lots of good tips.
I would also check the fit of your rifles and modify them to you. You can get a replacement stock to practice on and use if you don't want to cut the one on the rifle. If you ever make it to Slippery Rock I can help you with it after the shoot. The wood shop doesn't travel well.
Stand
http://books.google.com/books/download/Suggestions_to_Military_Riflemen.pdf?id=TphJAAAAIAAJ&hl=en&capid=AFLRE70yAwU0GWLYv1IFTiYJBbhXAKgZAoYT2kv-DcPUKvQCKEdZTlw4GC2DMtk9ot3djpgcwfOYFtHUqqiJeirWpnvGrhD2KQ&continue=http://books.google.com/books/download/Suggestions_to_Military_Riflemen.pdf%3Fid%3DTphJAAAAIAAJ%26output%3Dpdf%26hl%3Den (http://books.google.com/books/download/Suggestions_to_Military_Riflemen.pdf?id=TphJAAAAIAAJ&hl=en&capid=AFLRE70yAwU0GWLYv1IFTiYJBbhXAKgZAoYT2kv-DcPUKvQCKEdZTlw4GC2DMtk9ot3djpgcwfOYFtHUqqiJeirWpnvGrhD2KQ&continue=http://books.google.com/books/download/Suggestions_to_Military_Riflemen.pdf%3Fid%3DTphJAAAAIAAJ%26output%3Dpdf%26hl%3Den)
click the above and enter the capcha code for the free PDF download of the book.
If the butt stock is moving around in the shoulder pocket under recoil, the SHF's for the trigger hand are not being followed.
If the firm handshake grip is failing, then the rifle is able to impact the shoulder, causing pain or discomfort, resulting in flinching.
When instructing the steady hold factors, I use the following language for the trigger hand:
"The trigger hand has a firm, handshake grip on the rifle;
it is pulling the rifle SMARTLY into the shoulder pocket..." (emphasis added)
The firm handshake grip is intended so that your trigger hand does not slip from the rifle during recoil.
Pulling the rifle smartly into the shoulder pocket ensures that the rifle does not slip from the shoulder during recoil.
But how much rearward pressure should one add? Just how smart is "smartly"?
With all other muscles relaxed, use all of your strength to pull the rifle into your shoulder pocket; with this amount of force, you will begin to tremble very quickly. Slowly reduce the pressure until the trembling subsides, then maintain that pressure throughout the course of fire. You have just achieved proper buttstock-to-shoulder engagement.
Now, for the other issues that you are facing:
Canting of the rifle while in prone position, with a loop sling, is primarily caused by not having the rifle properly centered in the support hand.
To ensure proper rifle placement in the support hand, create a "V" with your index finger and thumb; place the rifle directly in the center of that "V", then relax the fingers of your support hand, resting the weight of the rifle on the wrist.
Other potential causes of canting in prone:
Using a hasty sling that is too tight.
Loop sling that is too low on the support arm (closer to elbow than armpit)
Support elbow not under the rifle (double check that your elbow isn't TOO far, as well)
QuoteBring your rifle to the next shoot
Couldn't agree more. If you have already shot Rifleman with your .22, stop bringing that .22 to Appleseed events, unless it is for use as a loaner. Bring out one of your centerfire rifles to practice with. You can BEGIN to learn with a .22- and it's great, because you can focus on the fundamentals without having to deal with the recoil and report of a center fire. The recoil of a center fire rifle will tell you if your SHF's are correct, whereas a .22 will let people get away with not having the SHF's perfect.
ItsanSKS, I think you hit a major part of the problem-- not pulling the rifle in smartly. The.22 is much more forgiving, and I think I was pulling in about the as I do with the .22. I don't think I'd flinch so badly if it wasn't moving around so much. I think it is more a worry that I'm going to get hit in the face (which isn't likely), so I am guarding.
I have always used a hasty sling with my M1Carbine .22, so that is what I am using with the center fires. Maybe I just need to play with the sling and rifle in the living room to get comfortable with the sling tension and grip.
I did take my Mauser this weekend to the shoot. I plan to bring one or the other every time. I think I have put less than 200 rounds through the Garand, and 100 through the Mauser, so I am pretty green when it comes to center fires.
Barbie, I hadn't thought about rolling to keep in proper position. That should help a lot!
I really do want to get good at using these rifles. Thanks for the tips!
Stand, edheler is trying to get me to come to Slippery Rock.
Linda-
We teach hasty sling because it is better than not using a sling at all, and because most first-time Appleseed attendees do not own a sling capable of creating a loop.
If you have the time and sling, USE A LOOP. Not a request, not a suggestion, JUST DO IT. Keep the hasty sling use for quick shots, or for the standing position, where it actually does the most good. Stop worrying about COMFORT. (the #1 reason people prefer a hasty over loop sling). Using a sling is about SUPPORT, and the Loop Sling provides the maximum amount of support for shooting in the prone and seated positions.
Edited to add:
I moved this thread from "Rifle Knowledge Bank" to "Skill Sets of Shooting" as the problems discussed herein are not rifle-specific, but are instead related to the fundamental skills that we teach at Appleseed Events.
-ItsanSKS
I use a hasty because I use an M1 carbine .22 rifle. The sling attaches on the oiler. I've never tried reconfiguring it, because the comb riser pad is in the way.
My 11 yo daughter was bribed into using a loop sling this weekend, and her groups shrunk from large constellations *to touching. For the big rifles I may have to take a dose of the same medicine. :) She will get an iPod touch out of the deal. I'll get the satisfaction of a job well done.
The Mauser sling attaches almost like my carbine, and I have a comb riser on the stock which kind of locks the sling in place. that may take some creativity to turn it into a loop, once I get a cotton sling for it.
*she was literally connecting them, trying to make star constellations. Kids!
If you could provide a picture of your Mauser, we may be able to come up with a way to rig a USGI web sling to it.
Another thought:
I am certain that a 1907 leather sling will mount to the rifle(s), and thus grant you the use of a loop sling.
I have to use the comb riser or I can't use a scope. Even using irons, I have to have some comb rise.
FWIW I recommend sticking with the M1 until you master it then you can focus on the bolty.
Scoring with the Mouser will be a major accomplishment.
Babies#5 and Itsansks's smartly back into the shoulder pocket (He is my mentor and one of the best) ..:..
Looks like mounting a web sling or 1907 sling to the Mauser will be your best option, though it will require slight modification of the stock.
What I would do:
Install a proper rear sling swivel, either by adding a rear stud & swivel such as this:
(http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/t_100003367_1.jpg)
Link: http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/slings-sling-swivels/rifle-swivel-sets/rifle-sling-swivel-sets-prod25896.aspx
or by installing something like this:
(http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_430000399_1.jpg)
Link: http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/stock-forend-parts/swivel-parts/swivel-studs/rear-sling-swivel-assembly-prod42240.aspx
Not sure what type of front sling swivel the Mauser has, but something similar to the above ought to work, if the original isn't compatible.
If you are not comfortable with permanently modifying the original stock of your rifle, aftermarket stocks (that usually include sling studs already) are available at reasonable prices:
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/stock-forend-parts/rifle-stocks/index.htm?avs|Make_3=Mauser (http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/stock-forend-parts/rifle-stocks/index.htm?avs%7CMake_3=Mauser)
What I did with my Garand to help me out:
Made the stock fit me.
I'm a guy, 5'8", and that front sling swivel was way too far forward. Under recoil my support hand would slip forward, and my NPOA would drop.
So I bought a synthetic stock from www.dupagetrading.com. They have wood, too, if you don't want to commit the ultimate sin of putting synthetic on a Garand. I then put a screw in swivel mount just in front of where my support hand rests. When I sling up now my support hand is tight against the sling mount, it really helps keep me "locked together" under recoil. I put a second screw in sling mount at the rear of the stock and swapped out the rattly GI hook with a Uncle Mikes swivel. Faster to un-clip for slinging up, and quieter. I can also unclip the sling from the front sling mount and leave the loop sling on my arm now.
I purchased an M14 buttplate and modified the stock to fit it. It only took about 20 careful minutes with a chisel. The M14 buttplate has a flip up plate that flips up about 90 degrees. This plate rests on top of the shoulder, and keeps the stock from slipping down out of my shooting "pocket". No amount of pulling the stock in seemed to keep my "old girl" from slipping out of the pocket before, the flip up buttplate fixes it handily, without resorting to friction tape that could tear up my shooting jacket.
Then I put several pieces of skate board tape on the grip so my trigger hand stays planted better.
You can also mod up your existing stock; I chose to keep my original stock original. The synthetic stock I purchased was only $40, and it's a "parade stock", "not recommended for firing"? A few hundred rounds later it's holding up just fine. I figured it was the cheapest way to test my modifications. If it falls apart then I'll buy a reproduction wood stock and repeat.
Generally shorter M14 shooters will remove the M14 style buttplate and replace it with a Garand buttplate. This shortens the stock by a little more than 1/8". For the M1, Dupage makes a WWII style stock that is a little shorter and the grip is a bit thinner. It's a good stock.
Skateboard tape and products like Firm Grip can be used to help with rifles that are a little too large. You can't use the tape in CMP competition, but you can use spray on grip adhesive. It can be particularly beneficial in rapid fire. In slow fire you have the time to reset your grip, check your position etc.
You may also want to spend some time working on developing a good position for shooting the .30 cals. No amount of fitting, tape, foam or modified sling swivels will make up for a bad position. But if you have a good position, a little additional fitting can make a BIG difference.
I am 5'4" with short arms. I shoot the M1 either as it came from the CMP or with the addition of some firm grip to a glove on my left hand to keep my support hand in place. Mine does have a WWII style stock, so that helps some.
Linda, i think you sold yourself out a little by saying you are shooting with hasty in Prone. While it is possible, it is certainly not ideal and here is why. By the very nature of the hasty sling it pulls the butt out of the pocket in prone because the second point of contact is pulling it down (the J-Hook clipped onto the butt). If you relax into the sling as you should you are putting forward pressure on the sling in front of your arm. Because the sling wraps around the back of the arm below the shoulder, the aft part of the sling is being drawn down, out of your pocket, and that tendency to motion is being highlighted by the recoil, pulling the butt out of your pocket with each shot.
I am not a fan of encouraging people to pull the stock into their shoulder in prone or seated (smartly or otherwise though i do like the use of the word "smartly" O0 ) because that involves some inherent muscling. Specifically muscling in the bicep towards the shoulder which can insert a leftward push with the trigger hand against the wrist of the stock. A firm sling position will require you to drive the butt forward a bit to lever it into your pocket, that should be firm enough contact. I think ItsanSKS is right in encouraging you to use Loop sling. Its not an accident its been a standard of shooting for so long, its also a deep part of our curriculum that, as instructors, we should be intimately familiar with.
Another good comment is the comment jmdavis made about position. When it comes to .30 cal, any little tic in the position will be exposed, exacerbated, and relevant. A younger instructor locally is about your size, she is perhaps a bit taller, and has been made aware of the effect of .30 cal on her position by the acquisition of a Garand. She needed to raise the comb, (still needs) to extend the front hand, and lower her position to make it suitable. We also noticed that, with each good shot, the rifle was driving her entire upper body backwards, almost comically so, and displacing her position. Since she is slight and lacks upper body bulk to resist the recoil, we encouraged the use of a technical shooting jacket, which can be strapped up tight to stabilize her torso and prevent her elbows and spine from being driven into her hips. We have a video of it, if I can find it i will post it here. As a field shooter first, I don't often encourage the use of a technical jacket, which limit movement by design and are heavy and hot and not trompin through the goo goo weeds friendly, but it is also not an accident they are used in target competition. They work. We are, none of us, perfect, and we all need more work on our position.
Okay, found the video. These are the last two shots of 6 that Kate put in a 3 moa group on a piece of 4 moa steel at 100 yards. The last shot picked the target and frame up and threw it into the berm (the Garand (even this 5 digit all original SA Rack grade with an early 50's barrel) is truly the Sledgehammer of the Battlefield). You can notice how the shots displace her trigger side elbow, but what you cannot see is that her spine bends with the recoil and her hips move back. Until we got it figured out, each shot noticeably moved her back. You can even see that on the mat though the video is not long enough to show all of the process. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30UKPHbIaaE
I was able to shoot a little today, starting with a .22, then switching to the Garand. It wasn't my best shooting at .22, but the rifle didn't like Federal ammo.
I couldn't see the sights with the comb riser on the Garand, so it came off. I had groups. Not great, but small enough to be respectable. And I had a group in the 400 yard target
I will practice with the loop on the Garand. I'm curious how much difference it makes. It doesn't move out of the pocket like the Mauser.
My husband, also a rifleman, was watching me and my position. I was not bucking, which he was concerned about. Overall, my position was good. I did catch a flinch a few times ,so ball and dummy will be a good tool. That, and the Mauser are for another day.
Thanks for the advice! I will conquer this.