The question is: If you use a sling with an AR-15, does it pull on the barrel and cause inaccuracies? Does a free floating hand guard negate this problem? Looking at the Rock River Arms or Hogue free float tubes (http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=309) would these work and how do you attach a front sling swivel? How about RRA's NM free float barrel sleeve? (http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=293) Does this have a swivel attachment point on it?
Any information would be appreciated.
The short answer is yes, anything pulling or pushing on the barrel affects accuracy. If you could guarantee you'd always pull the same amount in the same direction that would be different.
I have a free float tube on my vARmint rifle. I bought a couple of those rails you can mount to a rifle/stock yourself and drilled the bottom of the tube and attached one rail. The rail "kits" came with different sized screws and nuts to fit the forends on AR type rifles (evidently different makers have different sized holed in the handguards so the "nuts" were different sizes.) I attached a bipod mount and sling swivel mount to that rail. The tube attaches to the upper receiver, not the barrel, so neither should affect the barrel. The only "weight" on the barrel is the gas block and gas tube.
edited to add ---> I think I'd stay away from the rubber covered tubes. That might make is tough to get a good solid attachment of the rail, or a sling swivel stud, to the tube (maybe not, but it seems like it could).
Some rifles with free float tubes come with sling swivel mounts on them. The picture doesn't show any details, just what it looks like after. The bottom picture is the before.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn298/zsrbest/camovARmintrifle.jpg)
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn298/zsrbest/IMG00052.jpg)
It the rifle has a standard barrel, which is really a heavy barrel, then there is not a great risk of causing enough of a problem with a sling to get concerned with. If you a light weight barrel, well, that might be a different issue. This is the original barrel, the one that made the military to away with the sling use.
My suggestion, get the basic rifle, give it a try, if you are not happy with the results, then consider spending the $$ on free-float hand guards (my personal feeling is that free-float hand guards are not needed for Rifleman shooting, perhaps bench rest, competitive shooting).
I shoot my ARs with slings, like a real Rifleman, and see no issues with it.
Or, don't worry about it, you folks in Cal are not allowed to have black rifles anyway..... >:( ::) Just send me the cash equivalent, and I will get you an AR that you can really shoot, and store it in my safe ;D ;)
You shouldn't have this issue, as the Appleseed SOP is that the sling is SNUG, not tight.
"Snug" means if any looser, you'll have slack. The sling is used to steady the rifle, and hold it in your shoulder.
With other rifles, you can have the sling tighter, but you generally don't have to in order to meet the 4 MOA rifleman standard.
So, on the firing line, "Snug" is in, "Tight" is out - especially on ARs...
PS, M1A4ME: That's a nice touch, making sure Paul Revere's Ride gets in the pic! ;D
Yeah, gettin' to be a habit.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn298/zsrbest/eddystone.jpg)
I still haven't met anyone who shoots an AR so accurately that any of that after-market crap they put on there makes any real difference at all in terms of accuracy. (Before you go gettin all offended you should see the Harris "counterweight" on the front of mine!)
Fact of the matter is, for most people, the AR is "more accurate" than they are and regardless of what they do to it or where they attach their sling, mount their fore-grip, etc., the rifle still "outshoots" them. (It's "their" mistake, not an actual problem with the rifle.)
Fix for this?
Appleseed!
Follow the six steps..
Maybe at 25 meters a sling doesn't affect an AR that much. Maybe the newer ARs (shorter, thicker barrels) aren't affected as much. Not having enough ARs or enough range time to test them I can't really say.
I do know that in the years 1975 to 1979 the US Army did not teach the use of a sling for anything but carrying a rifle over your shoulder, because the sling would bend the barrels on those M16A1s in use then.
I do know that a seemingly tiny amount of pressure against a barrel will make a bigger difference as the distance to the target increases. I've seen a .222 Rem. that shot 1.5 to 2" groups at 100 yds. drop down to dime sized groups at 150 yds. when a tiny little "bump" of wood was removed from the barrel channel and the action bedded into the stock (the barrel was touching the "bump" and when the bump was removed the action would rattle around in the stock, so we had to bed it). That wasn't from anyone pulling or pushing on the barrel, it was from the heat bending the barrel.
Try your ARs with varying amounts of sling tension at a range where you can see a movement in the shot group and see what happens. Then you'll know your rifle even better than you do now.
You can mark your sling positions for standing, sitting and prone to repeat the tension from position change to position change but remember that in the cold weather you'll wear more clothes so the marks might not be correct then.
Quote from: funfaler on August 19, 2008, 08:55:28 PM
Or, don't worry about it, you folks in Cal are not allowed to have black rifles anyway..... >:( ::) Just send me the cash equivalent, and I will get you an AR that you can really shoot, and store it in my safe ;D ;)
On the contrary.....there are numerous ways, using the right combination of parts in combination with an Off List Lower (OLL) to assemble a CA legal AR-15. 8) See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=56818
I shoot NRA HP comp with a rack-grade GI M16 upper on a AR lower - definitely not free-floated! I have used both a web sling and the new Turner man-made sling (I like the web best - easier to get in and out of).
The key is as Fred said - snug. Most of my fellow comp shooters run their slings so tight as to cut off circulation, and swear by it. I run mine (either type) just snug enough to hold the rifle in place - nothing more. So long as you can remove your trigger hand and have the rifle stay put - you are good. You should be able to relax forward into the sling.
As the "ray-gun" rifle guys shoot much better than I do (eating up the x ring at 100 yds.) - maybe they are right. All I know is that if I can't carry it into the field - I don't care to practice with it. I can shoot well under 4moa and have scored nines at 600 yards - good enough for me - all with a barrel that flexes if you pull it over hard enough. ;D
PS. M1A4ME - that varminter if yourn is dead sexy buddy - nice paint job!
Quote from: M1A4ME on August 20, 2008, 12:51:11 PM
Try your ARs with varying amounts of sling tension at a range where you can see a movement in the shot group and see what happens. Then you'll know your rifle even better than you do now.
I bought mine with a heavy barrel so I wouldn't have to do this sort of thing. I don't know though, maybe it would still affect my groups. I've never even checked as I'm just happy to have a rifle that shoots where I point it!
Next time I'm out shooting I'll have to check. I don't see that big barrel moving much though. But, anything's possible!
For years I've taken solace in the fact that it was just me messing up.... now it may be something mechanical and I'm doing everything else right? Say it aint so!
Maybe I'm wrong but I think it all comes back to consistency.
If you've always got the sling adjusted the same way, if you've always got the stock in the same spot on your shoulder, if you've alway got your support elbow in the same spot under the rifle, if you've always got your support hand in the same spot under the fore end, if.....
One of the things that builds repeatable accuracy is consistency. Set yourself, your equipment and your position up so that it is consistent and I don't thing you'll have a problem.