M1A4ME
Will I ever be as good as I was?
RevWarVetAssoc Instructor
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Live long, shoot alot, hit the intended target.
clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< on: December 17, 2006, 10:21:11 PM >> Quote
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Did I do this right? Took the "come ups", did some calculating and put it in a table. Thought it would be interesting to see the bullet drop at ranges past the range you are zeroed at as well as how high to sight in at at 100 yds. to be close to dead on at the range you want to be on at. If it's wrong let me know where. Thanks.
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clicks.JPG (40.01 KB, 697x986 - viewed 93 times.) I attached it at the bottom of the page.
<< Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 10:34:37 PM by M1A4ME >> Report to moderator 68.57.189.15
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funfaler
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Posts: 331
Re: clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< Reply #1 on: January 7, 2007, 09:35:20 PM >> Quote
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I did not check your numbers, but it looks good to me. I have done a similiar graph to demonstrate the benefits of zeroing a rifle at Battle Sight Zero vs. the standard 100 yards.
Good job, you might want to include the information in the black are as well, helpful to know how high you shot will be if the range is shorter than the sights are set.
VAshooter
Regular Poster
Posts: 59
Re: clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< Reply #2 on: March 5, 2007, 03:00:10 PM >> Quote
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M14
I'm not sure how much difference there is betwen 7.62 X 51 fired out of an M14 as compared to 7.62 X 51 fired from a M1 Garand but your come up for the longer ranges seems a little off.
When shooting a M1 Garand in 7.62 caliber in service rifle competition my come ups were:
200 yard.......................+5 min elevation
300 yard.......................+7 min elevation
500 yard.......................+12 min elevation
600 yard.......................+16 min elevation
1000 yard.....................+39 min elevation
The + sign means the 1/2 min elevation hood of the rear aperture was rotated to the high position. All of these elevations are from "0" with the sight bottomed out. As you can see we are only 1 minute of elevation apart at 300 yards but 7 minutes apart at 1000 yards.
All of these elevations are actual since we shot these distances every day. This was always my starting point. Sometimes I would need to vary my elevation by 1/2 or 1 minute because of light or altitude or temperature at different shooting ranges but this was always close. Different ammo could also change your elevation but we always shot the same lot number of match ammo so that was never a problem.
Doug in Virginia
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M1A4ME
Will I ever be as good as I was?
RevWarVetAssoc Instructor
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Posts: 1295
Live long, shoot alot, hit the intended target.
Re: clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< Reply #3 on: March 7, 2007, 08:49:03 PM >> Quote
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sorry meant to reply yesterday. I used the "standard" come ups posted elsewhere here on the site. If you were using the heavy boat tailed match bullets your trajectory may have been a litte flatter as the range increased and you bullets lost less speed than the lighter bullets.
For those of you using either a Garand or an M1A, your trajectory studies are pretty simple. Just memorize the following numerical combination: 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 8.
What's that?
Those are your rear sight's "come-ups" out to 1000 yards using standard M2 150 grain FMJ ammo for your .30-06 Garand and the standard M80 147 grain FMJ in 7.62x51/.308. Learn those come-ups cold, and you'll be on target all the way out to 1000 yards, as long as you know (1) your rifle's initial sight settings and (2) the range to your target.
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Oh to be back in the mountains again!
VAshooter
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Posts: 59
Re: clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< Reply #4 on: March 8, 2007, 11:59:21 AM >> Quote
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I hadn't thought about that but we only shot match ammo in our 308 Garands. I've never shot light ball in a Garand before. Your come ups are probably more accurate than mine.
Doug in Virginia
M1A4ME
Will I ever be as good as I was?
RevWarVetAssoc Instructor
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Live long, shoot alot, hit the intended target.
Re: clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< Reply #5 on: March 8, 2007, 08:08:44 PM >> Quote
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They aren't mine. They're posted in the "Rifleman" section and often quoted during the latter parts of Appleseeds and heard again at the Boot Camp.
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azredhawk44
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Posts: 52
Re: clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< Reply #6 on: April 6, 2007, 05:22:40 PM >> Quote
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3,3,4,4,5,5,6,8,8...?
Are these MOA, or "clicks" on a standard 1/2MOA adjustable rear peep sight?
My M1A's rear sight is 1/2 MOA adjustable, but aren't national match grade rear sights adjustable to 1/4 MOA?
If I am "zeroed" at 100 and want to shoot at a 300 yard target, do I go up 6 "clicks" or 6 MOA (12 clicks)? If I had to guess, I'd say that I am at a net loss of about 18-19" at 300 yards and so I need to come up 6MOA (1MOA = 1 inch at 100 yards, @ 300 yards = 3", times 6 gives me my 18-19" drop) at that distance (meaning 12 "clicks" on my hardware).
This is the first I've heard of the 3,3,4,4,5,5,6,8,8 measurements and I would really like to understand them fully.
Thanks, all.
M1A4ME
Will I ever be as good as I was?
RevWarVetAssoc Instructor
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Live long, shoot alot, hit the intended target.
Re: clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< Reply #7 on: April 6, 2007, 08:52:02 PM >> Quote
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My M1A has "standard" GI sights and the rear is set up so each click of elevation is 1 MOA. I thought the NM rear aperature hood adjusted 1/2 MOA.
I believe this is explained here: http://www.rwva.org/oldsite/
On a standard rear sight M1A or M1 (or M14) 6 clicks of elevation will be the adjustment when moving from 100 to 300 yd. targets.
Anyway, read the material in the above link, its a pretty thorough explanation and should explain it pretty good.
added this - the link only gets you part way there. click on Rifleman at the top of the page, then click on How to become a Rifleman, then click on part nine - battle sights and staying alive
<< Last Edit: April 6, 2007, 08:59:19 PM by M1A4ME >>
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Prairie Fire
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Re: clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< Reply #8 on: April 6, 2007, 09:00:43 PM >> Quote
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azredhawk44: this series of numbers refers to minutes of angle, not clicks on a non-standard sight, such as a half-minute click one. "Standard", is one click = one moa.
Standard rear sight click values for M1 and M14-type rifles are 1moa for both elevation and windage. USGI National Match rear sights have one-half moa click values for windage, ONE moa click values on the elevation drum, and a rotatable hooded aperature that changes its elevation by one-half moa.
You are correct that you need to come up approximately six moa between 100 and 300 yards. For a rear sight that does not use the standard click comeups of 1 click=1 moa, you'd need to adjust that answer. (There may be aftermarket NM rear elevation drums that are calibrated in half-minute clicks. Sorry I don't keep track of what SA Inc tries to do anymore. Seems as if they use an aftermarket ball bearing detent in order to achieve some shortcut, it's possible that the ball bearing makes for half-minute elevation clicks.) If your elevation clicks are half-minute, then you'd need twelve clicks to get six moa.
That series of numbers is the real deal, Fred has been pushing it for several years. Those values become the real deal, for you, only after you have confirmed them for yourself at those ranges. Changes in your sight picture as ranges increase, and non-spec ammo are a few of the reasons that you should do this. If you find that the numbers are wrong (your trying to find this out will put you in the 98th percentile of shooters, if not higher), just make a note of how your dope varies from the standard comeups.
A good place to put this info, is underneath the flip-up buttplate on your rifle. Besides those numbers, a windage correction chart for full-value winds of 10, 15, and 20mph winds at 300 and 500 yards is a good thing. Plus your rifle's mechanical zero for 275 yards. All this fits on one piece of paper, taped over with packing tape and all readily visible.
Posts: 52
Re: clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< Reply #9 on: April 7, 2007, 08:22:51 PM >> Quote
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Prairie Fire and M1A4ME:
Thanks, guys. I had my information wrong, and thank you for putting it so politely. Appreciated. 1MOA = 1 click on M14/M1A/M1 rifles... got it. NM rear sights are adjustable in 1/2 MOA increments.
My new leupold FX-2 scope is 1/4 MOA increments. Take the 3-3-4-4-5-5-6-8-8 and multiply by 4, if applicable at all for my ammo and gun combo (short barreled M1A with 165gr preferred ammo probably makes a significant change to these numbers out past 300 yards). I've heard of scopes that even work in 1/8 MOA increments... what a pain to adjust.
Anyways, thanks guys.
M1A4ME
Will I ever be as good as I was?
RevWarVetAssoc Instructor
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Posts: 1295
Live long, shoot alot, hit the intended target.
Re: clicks table?? Correct?? useful?
<< Reply #10 on: April 7, 2007, 08:58:13 PM >> Quote
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The idea is to help. If we sometimes get testy with each other it's not from a lack of respect of intention to make somebody look bad, its because some of us take the desire to advise and teach others very seriously and we're somewhat opinionated. Many of us have nothing but range experience (military or civilian). I'll be the first to admit my advice is based on personal experience at the range or in the field, not combat. Hopefully none of us will ever need the advice we give/get here except at the range.
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Oh to be back in the mountains again!