Hello Appleseed family,
I am in the market for a scope and I crave some advice from the brain trust.
Let me get this out of the way first, I know the best value is iron sights. Feel free to take a soap box :sb: extolling the virtues of irons, but please help me out too.
I would like to be able to use it to actually see while playing with full distance AQTs.
I THINK having a MOA reticle would be desirable? I am open to reticle suggestions.
Lots of adjustment so I can pretend I am Whippet the super sniper. #)
I have a EOTech 512 and a Trijicon 1-4 Accupoint. I got both of those at WAY below their market price. I am not concerned with names, just quality for the price. I am looking for magnification, but I don't know the range I should be considering.
Occasionally I may mount it on a 10/22 and pretend I have bionic vision. ;D
Mil dots are the future.
I personally recommend the line of scopes from Vortex Optics that feature their "EBR-1 MOA" reticle. The reticle has minute of angle stadia lines (not dots) and the turrets also adjust in minute of angle (1/4 MOA/click).
Mils work great, but as Appleseed teaches, and most of our instructors probably think in Minute of Angle, I find it easier to range in MOA, rather than doing the conversion from mils to MOA. That being said, if you are already familiar with mils, think in mils, by all means get yourself a mil/mil scope.
FYI: MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL refers to reticle vs adjustment- the last thing you want is a scope that measures in MOA, but adjusts in Mils, or vice-versa.
Now, as far as magnification-
It depends on your purposes. Field shooting? Where you might have to pick your target out of densely packed brush, or with tall grass around which might obscure the shot?
Lower is better. In this circumstance, you want the widest field of view (FOV) that allows you to still accurately define your target. This is why most hunting scopes offer 3x-9x power; even on 9x, many find that the FOV is too narrow, and that it becomes increasingly more difficult to locate a target in field conditions.
If you are more concerned with target shooting, where your targets are clearly defined, totally visible and aren't likely to be moving any time soon, go with as high a magnification as your wallet can stand.
My personal recommendation, as someone who does predominantly field shooting, but also a fair amount of target shooting, is the vortex Viper PST 4-16 FFP w/EBR-1 MOA reticle. The MSRP on this scope is $999, but street price is much lower.
Here's one for $899, found after a 30 second search: http://swfa.com/Vortex-4-16x50-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44562.aspx
I've been researching scopes and chose the Vortex line. I've found them to be of excellent quality at a fair price. The models I've looked at and compared were the same lines in Nikon. Quality seems to be even, price is lower, and Vortex's warranty has been outstanding. I've made my purchases from A & A Optics. (http://aaoptics.com/index.htm) Alan's reputation for customer service, advice, and educating on actual needs is excellent on the Indiana Gun Owners forum (http://ingunowners.com/forums/a_and_a_optics/). I ordered a Vortex Crossfire II 3-9x40 on Wednesday and received it Thursday. I also bought some binoculars from him last summer.
I use the Vortex PST in MOA/MOA and it works great ,I've shot it out to 1000yds. The recital is fine so targets don't hide behind it plus its has low light illumination adjustments that seem to be just right for me. I have learned to hold over so I don't dial very often. With a quick mount scope base you can buy one scope and use it on multiple rifles and not lose your zero. My rifle was knocked off the bench and landed on the scope elevation knob that was bent, the scope held it's zero and I shot a match a few weeks later with no problems . I sent the scope back to Vortex, they repaired it for free and in a week I had the scope back in my hands. Well worth the money.
Another to look at is the burris line of prism scopes:
http://www.burrisoptics.com/ar332.html
Low cost, durable, effective.
Vortex PST O0.
SWFA is a good vendor.
PK
Speaking of SWFA, their SS line is a good Cost/quality balance. They were designed under military contract and are very affordable.
CH
Like others have previously stated, I like the mil-dot for flexibility. As mentioned above, these can also simply be converted to MOA's, the rifleman's language.
By dialing the power down to half, the spacing doubles. Thus it can be used as a BDC.
Thus Mil Dots are flexible, quick and effective.
If you are going to pop it on your 22 for long range to 300 yards or more, you need a 20 MOA rail to accommodate the massive bullet drop.
At the less expensive end take a look at the Nikon .223 series. At least one knowledgeable shooter sold his IOR M2 (4x) and replaced it with a less expensive Nikon 1-4x. During a night fire exercise that scope worked very well for a couple of different shooters.
The Vortex is VERY good. If you can afford that much go for it. If not I have been happy with the Nikons as hunting scopes (even when compared to VX-3 Leupolds) for a few years now. My carbine still wears an IOR M2 (4x) other than cqb stuff I am very happy with it. It is in the middle of the discussed price range.
Mike
One of my favorite scopes is the Bushnell Elite 3200 Tactical. I bought one for use on a suppressed 22 I have and it has been great so far. Its a mil-dot scope with return to zero knobs in the 200 dollar range. Great if you are looking to learn the mil-dot stuff without breaking the bank. It isn't exactly congruent with the stuff we teach at appleseeds but it is definitely a great long distance scope for the money.
After a bad experience with Simmons scopes, I switched over to a scope from Mueller Optics. I've been very happy with it. I have the Mueller APV, which is for use with rimfire rifles. They have a variety of hunting and target scopes, with different magnification ranges and reticle options. For what it's worth, I feel like they provide a good quality product at a decent price point. Look around the internet, it seems that they generate many more good reviews than bad ones. They also offer a limited lifetime warranty.
I am an ACOG man myself. I don't like glass - fragile and finicky, but eyes are old now and hard to see target and front site. ACOG, once zeroed at 100M, ACOG is very fast, offering ranging and hold offs. Fixed power means very forgiving eye relief. ACOG glass is good stuff and the unit is very light and also very tough. Not aware of any scope more durable. I fell in love with them at Ft Stewart - first time I got to look through one - very nice color and light - edge to edge.
The first thing I would say any Rifleman must accept about glass is you git what u pay for. You can buy it once, or buy it three times and still be unsatisfied. Spend at least what the rifle cost and enjoy much better chance of buying it once. I learnt this lesson very hard way, because I am hard-headed. Will never buy a cheap scope again.
I prefer stupid simple and the ACOG bangs that gong despite endless list of faults sure to be brung up by many.
That's my .02
+1 on the VORTEX Viper PST moa/moa its Appleseed tough O0
D-fly
Buy the best scope you can afford and get a La Rue quick mount. works great.
+1 Vortex PST FFP 4-16 moa (though I have and prefer the mrad)
Quote from: PHenry on March 29, 2013, 05:37:33 PM
I am an ACOG man myself. I don't like glass - fragile and finicky, but eyes are old now and hard to see target and front site. ACOG, once zeroed at 100M, ACOG is very fast, offering ranging and hold offs. Fixed power means very forgiving eye relief. ACOG glass is good stuff and the unit is very light and also very tough. Not aware of any scope more durable. I fell in love with them at Ft Stewart - first time I got to look through one - very nice color and light - edge to edge.
The first thing I would say any Rifleman must accept about glass is you git what u pay for. You can buy it once, or buy it three times and still be unsatisfied. Spend at least what the rifle cost and enjoy much better chance of buying it once. I learnt this lesson very hard way, because I am hard-headed. Will never buy a cheap scope again.
I prefer stupid simple and the ACOG bangs that gong despite endless list of faults sure to be brung up by many.
That's my .02
ACOGS are what the military used at the WSMR shoot we did. Awesome indeed!
On that note I will add my Pride Fowler RR800-1 in FFP with BDC is a no brainer for a 30 cal MBR semi.
The best I don't know it is only limited by the amount of money you put into it. But I used a sub $200 Nikon P223 last week at a KD event where we shot 500 yards, 3x9 and it worked great I had no need for anything else and it was perfectly functional for KD even at the lowest power. Another instructor shot a perfect score with a fixed 3x P223. For Appleseed and shooting 4moa targets why complicate things with mil-dot and high power. Remember shoot with the lowest power to keep from fussing the shot, does work. Of course you mileage may vary.
Given a bit of notice, we can let you try the Nikon P223 and an ACOG at lapeer. As the normal crew there have them. I like the nikon, decent glass for the price, external MOA marked turrets for easy adjustment.
number6
What sealed deal for me on ACOG was performance at KD in GA on a farm. I had zeroed at my local range prior to arrival at KD in GA. We set up at 25M for everyone to attain BSZ. I centered the ACOG on top of short vertical illuminated post - dead on. We moved back to 100 yards and I used the chevron - dead on. By the time we hot 200 yards, I just sat all sighters out - no point in wasting rounds. While rest took one to three sighters - I smoked cigars. Sold.
Downside is it only ranges on man-sized target - facing square to shooter, where a Mil Dot (or MOA dot) will range on any object of known size in inches. But, at KD, simply use approp horizontal stadia line. Does not offer windage hold offs as well as a Mil Dot, but with practice and a good memory or proper dope book - works pretty well for that too.
All boils down to application and preference, but one constant - ignore low-end Chi-Comm stuff and move on - literally nothing to see there. There are several makers that offer good optics under $500 - Nikon, Redfield, Etc.
I've seen more Chi-Comm scopes with incorrect markings than I can recall. Evidently "up" does not translate any better than bright orange (chamber flags). :wb:
One more constant - internet advice worth exactly what u pay for it. Real-time info from actual use on KD range rules for scopes, rifles and ammo. Huzaaah!
I'm a Trijicon fan and have several. The ACOG made the last KD shoot all too easy with only one tweek on the turrets all day.
I used an Accupoint 3-9x40 at a previous KD. No cross hairs and only the illuminated triangle. Those turrets tracked perfectly, with an easy to feel click and had resettable zero caps.