Does anyone know about these rifles? Any info would be appreciated.
I have owned 2 of these and still own one of them, it has been thru a pistol grip conversion and with good ammo (lake city surplus) I have actually shot a sub moa group with it!! SoM was at the range with me when I did it, all three holes were touching in a nice little cloverleaf. Almost looked like only two holes, so you could say that I am happy with mine ;D! I have gotten some sure fire 25 round mags for it and haven't used them enough to really come to a conclusion of durability of the mags, they have fedd every round that has been loaded thru them, just don't know how well they will do over the next couple of thosand rounds.
Quote from: Flathead on August 04, 2008, 08:20:37 PM
I have owned 2 of these and still own one of them, it has been thru a pistol grip conversion and with good ammo (lake city surplus) I have actually shot a sub moa group with it!! SoM was at the range with me when I did it, all three holes were touching in a nice little cloverleaf. Almost looked like only two holes, so you could say that I am happy with mine ;D! I have gotten some sure fire 25 round mags for it and haven't used them enough to really come to a conclusion of durability of the mags, they have fedd every round that has been loaded thru them, just don't know how well they will do over the next couple of thosand rounds.
Do you have the 16" or 20" barrel?
20 inch barrel and was shooting at 25 meters
I had a Saiga .308 with the 21" barrel. It was a great rifle... nice and light compared to many other MBRs, and it shot just fine... easily a 4 moa capable rifle, and then some. I really liked how I had mine set up with the new Russian Dragunov style stock they're make for Saigas with the twisting cheek rest... it gives you a perfect cheek weld for your scope, and quickly twists out of the way for iron sights, if you have the nice side-mount scope mount that sits high enough for iron sight use. The iron sights are the same as the AK, which is to say they are pretty lame (although the 21" Saiga has a longer sight radius I guess), but as soon as Tech Sights comes out with their AK sights you can fix that!
I really wish I didn't sell mine. My LR-308 is a better shooter, but it is a lot heavier than that Saiga was. A Saiga is probably the cheapest way into a .308 MBR, and it would easily shoot a Rifleman's score on the KD. And nobody needs to be reminded about AK reliability.
When you get a saiga, you're basically getting a quasi-match barrel. Its a great example of how innovation and VOLUME of production can increase quality. The izhmash factory in Russia is churning out thousands of these cold hammer forged barrels for way less than it would cost here. The barrels on these guns (not just the 308) is what makes them. I just wish they would import the 545 and the 762x54 that they're making.
btw, the Achilles heel, MAGAZINES. I sold mine and bought a CETME. they were the SAME PRICE. but now I have 36 mags.
J
I have owned a few Saigas over the years. Definitely a quality rifle. These are far superior to the cheaper WASR series. The receiver is thicker and the fit/finish is better. With the "bolt on" pistol grip conversions and the new production magazines these are very versatile platforms.
Converting metal conventional High Cap AK mags is a fairly simple operation also.
Quote from: bob 210 on August 04, 2008, 06:44:41 PM
Does anyone know about these rifles? Any info would be appreciated.
Quote from: fepowered on May 27, 2009, 08:50:14 AM
I have owned a few Saigas over the years. Definitely a quality rifle. These are far superior to the cheaper WASR series. The receiver is thicker and the fit/finish is better. With the "bolt on" pistol grip conversions and the new production magazines these are very versatile platforms.
Converting metal conventional High Cap AK mags is a fairly simple operation also.
Quote from: bob 210 on August 04, 2008, 06:44:41 PM
Does anyone know about these rifles? Any info would be appreciated.
The biggest issue with these rifles like any AK is that they must be broken in. They are new and need at least 500 rounds of steel case run though them. Unfortunately that is expensive now and people just aren't doing it since you are looking at 300-400 bucks of ammo even on the 7.62x39. Aside from that there is a saiga forum to find out specifics.
I owned the 308 with the long 22" barrel a few years back. My only gripe was the lack of full cap mags. Back then there were rumors of full cap mags to be imported. Never happened. Now those are available, but some reports are saying they are not always reliable. The 6 rounders were very reliable and we modified the follower legs to hold a couple more rounds. Accuracy was quite well with 3-4 MOA at 100M common. Quality was very solid as the other posters mentioned.
Sights were the usual "just adequate" AK sights. Sight radius is longer and that helps.
Trigger was long and smooth but with a fast reset. I called this a "poor mans M1A".
When at the NRA Whittington Center a few years back we shot it the 1000M Buffalo.
In the cold, still mountain air you could hear the bullet hit about 4 seconds after the shot. Sights were at at 900M IIRC and we were all making hits.
But of course the target is slightly bigger than a piece of plywood. ^-^
Regretfully, I sold it and my Cetme's. My 308 battery is down to a FAL, M1ANM and a PTR-91. :(
Below is BlueFeather with the short carbine version. The side rail scope mount is standard but will obviously require a mod to the comb. I prefer open sights on the AK's.
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6540/gill8saigashooting.jpg) (http://img39.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gill8saigashooting.jpg)
Tech-Sights is releasing a set for the AK that should fit all Saiga types might want to contact them for info as it was to be ready this week. Yeah Im in line too.
Here's the Saiga I used to own.
Slap an M1 sling and a set of Tech Sights on there and you have one heck of a battle rifle.
By the way, those dragunov stocks with the twisting cheek piece are the cat's meow. If you have a scoped Saiga, you need one of those stocks. I paid $50 for mine from these folks: http://www.armsofamerica.com/
(http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk201/henschman/saiga.jpg)
I have that same stock on my 7.62x39 Saiga, but I find it a little short.
RAA recently came out with a similar dragonov that extends, (but that makes it two evil features in NY - "telescopic site" and "pistol grip")
But I'm planing to do the pistol grip conversion - it's just gone down the priority list with the price of "parts count" components.
BTW - fepowered -
I think you are thinking of the 7.62x39 about a mag conversion being easy. I added a bullet guide to my x39 Saiga and "adjusted" the mag release, so I now have access to all my x39 AK47 mags.
That luxury isn't available to the .308 Saigas, as there is no .308 (7.62x51) AK Mags.
For the .223 Saiga, MSA has an adapter that allows you to use AR15 mags - way cool,
They were looking into an M14 mag adapter for the .308 Saiga, but dropped it as impracticle. They have promised another solution but no word on what it is yet.
Quote from: bob 210 on August 04, 2008, 06:44:41 PM
Does anyone know about these rifles? Any info would be appreciated.
My wife shoots a Saiga 7.62 x 51 (.308 - Ak Variant Hunting Version) with a SWFA Super Sniper 10x42 scope
with the best Russian side mount you can buy from Kalinka Optics. This is a beautiful
rifle and is rated among the top ten battle rifles by some http://www.hunt4bear.com/Gear_Reviews.php?action=detail&g=gear1144719440
Wood furniture is lovely. With a 22" barrel this rifle can be a tac driver.
She is having a muzzle brake called
The Tactical Bolt, installed by
http://www.scorehi.com/Scorhiwhich looks like this: http://www.scorehi.com/Tacticle%203%20copy.JPG
Now with the wood furniture the rifle comes with a Monte Carlo cheek rest (sharp looking) however,
to have an enhanced cheek weld for scope or iron sights we added a Black Hawk padded Cheek rest
which is, we think, just great (we have five of them). They really do help. You can find theme at
Midwest USA or BlackHawk Tactical Cheek Pad - Adjust HawkTex 90CP01BK:
http://www.opticsplanet.net/blackhawk-tactical-cheek-pad-adjust-hawktex.htmlHer having just earned her Rifleman's Badge with the ruger 10/22 she is going for it again but this time
with her Saiga. I have no doubt she will achieve the results she is pursuing and the Saiga will perform.
Most amount of rifle for the least amount of money. As one person said you can bury this thing in 4 tons
of camel dung for 20 years, come back and it will still shoot.
If you can't find one, check out the
Vepr .308 another really excellent choice although a little more money.
Happy shopping eh? 8)
CM
(//)
Just for the record, here's my dissenting opinion of the Saiga .308. I wanted a rifle to perform in rapid fire, with the pistol grip adjustable stock. As it turned out, I never bothered putting it on paper, because the trigger was the absolute worst I ever pulled. The geometry of the trigger pull is such that it must be pulled a long way UP and back, and the resulting trigger slap on the reset was brutal, because the pointy end of the trigger was right on the tip of the finger. It will just not perform like I wanted it to in rapid fire mode. It may very well be accurate, but SLOW for a semi auto. JMHO... BTW, I'm getting an m-1 from the cmp, and the dealer I bought the Saiga from is a really good guy, and took it back after having been fired 10 rds. Whew.
Quote from: staplegund on June 14, 2009, 12:45:04 AM
Just for the record, here's my dissenting opinion of the Saiga .308. I wanted a rifle to perform in rapid fire, with the pistol grip adjustable stock. As it turned out, I never bothered putting it on paper, because the trigger was the absolute worst I ever pulled. The geometry of the trigger pull is such that it must be pulled a long way UP and back, and the resulting trigger slap on the reset was brutal, because the pointy end of the trigger was right on the tip of the finger. It will just not perform like I wanted it to in rapid fire mode. It may very well be accurate, but SLOW for a semi auto. JMHO... BTW, I'm getting an m-1 from the cmp, and the dealer I bought the Saiga from is a really good guy, and took it back after having been fired 10 rds. Whew.
That's why everyone serious about shooting a Saiga does the conversion. In factory form its not a MBR its a hunting rifle that's how it avoided being called an assault rifle. Its fairly easy and solves all the things you mentioned. It also has to be broken in as it is a brand new rifle and 10 rounds just doesn't come close. Enjoy the M1 but there's a lot of things you are going to have to learn about it also.
What conversion? A new trigger group? I asked the gunsmith at the shop for a solution and he didn't know of any.
On the two saigas I've owned (a 7.62x39 and a .308), the triggers were good and smooth with no slap. I guess the typical AK characteristic of lots of variation between triggers on different rifles may exist with saigas, too. The conversion involves making the saiga take a regular AK stock and pistol grip. This involves installing an AK trigger, so you can install a Tapco trigger or some other improved trigger. I have a Tapco in my ROMAK, and it has the best trigger pull of my rifles! Better than the DPMS LR-308!
As for the AK tech sights, they will apparently not work with a .308 saiga. The tech sights come with a new receiver cover, which is too short for the .308 saiga, and they come with a new return spring loop that might not work either. You might be able to modify a regular receiver cover or something to work. I'll know more when I get my AK tech sights in the mail. They will work with the 7.62x39 and .223 saigas, though.
Quote from: staplegund on June 14, 2009, 06:13:27 PM
What conversion? A new trigger group? I asked the gunsmith at the shop for a solution and he didn't know of any.
That is why I referred people to the Saiga forum for good info on the rifle. Its more than a new trigger and hammer so best thing is to go to where the experts reside.
My Saiga x39 trigger is perfectly acceptable.
Two AK's with Tapco G2 triggers - one feels better than the Saiga, the other worse. Go figure. All are better than other combloc AK triggers - which seem to have slap and slack!
The Saiga is more accurate. Sights are terrible (AK, but only marked for 300m, big honking FS and FSB lower than an AK) I haven't converted it yet but plan to when funds permit.
Conversion really refers to moving the FCG back to the standard AK location - right behind the mag release - and installing a pistol grip and AK stock. This change requires you to be 922r compliant, and the FCG is usually the first US parts to go in.
As Rhodes mentions - http://forum.saiga-12.com (http://forum.saiga-12.com) is the best location for details etc.
Only have the one Saiga,7.62x39, left at present but Ive done the conversion many times for friends(Best reason to own a dremel). All benefited greatly from the new FCG as far as pull and smoothness. Consequently accuracy improved on all the rifles. No one has ever wanted to go back after the conversions (Heh like they could). That factory FCG is a lot more complicated than any one would like, developed entirely to avoid being classed an assault rifle with no redeeming qualities beyond that.
Ive been eyeballing the 308 a lot lately but just cant make myself do it yet, dam that ammo is expensive but it may be the best bargain of all the Saiga rifles.
922R is a bit of a pain but since most Saiga after market parts are US made its easy to stay out of trouble. Saiga forums have a lot posted on that.
Quote from: Rhodes on June 15, 2009, 04:04:28 AM
Ive been eyeballing the 308 a lot lately but just cant make myself do it yet, dam that ammo is expensive but it may be the best bargain of all the Saiga rifles.
922R is a bit of a pain but since most Saiga after market parts are US made its easy to stay out of trouble. Saiga forums have a lot posted on that.
Yeah - 922r is a pain - on my x39 I've been looking at doing it FCG/Piston/U.S. Pistol grip/mag followers - that would let me use combloc wood. The mag followers might be a pain as I have 20 mags...
On the 308 - I keep going back and forth - "save my pennies for an M1A", and "buy a 308 Siaga and convert".
If I were to buy another saiga .308, I probably wouldn't even do the conversion if my factory trigger was as good as the ones on my last 2 saigas... especially since i couldn't use that awesome dragunov stock that I love so much with it anymore. As far as being 922 compliant, does anyone know of any actual instances of someone getting pulled over with a rifle in their trunk and having a cop or a federal agent actually take the rifle apart and see where each piece was made? even if it were possible to tell where something was made at all? Being that I've never heard of an individual getting in any trouble for 922(r) issues, its not exactly my #1 concern. ::)
I've been thinking about another Saiga, but the fact that I could buy an M1 Garand for the same price from CMP makes it less likely! Aw, who am i kidding... I will probably end up buying both! The M1 is a lot harder to mount optics on, after all... especially optics that leave the iron sights useable. Also, I think the saiga is somewhat lighter than the garand... weight is my main complaint with my current MBR, a DPMS LR-308C. That thing's a regular tack driver, but its pretty friggin heavy.
Considering the low price for the proper parts, versus the potential penalty if ever caught, using the proper compliance parts is a no brainer.
You're looking at 10 years or more, wit hserious loss of rights tacked on for good measure.
Versus what, $100 to $200 for parts?
I paid less than $100 total for a TAPCO gas piston, SAW pistol grip and G2 trigger set for my WASR-10 a few years back (early 2004). Small price to pay, and it really made the rifle more fun to shoot.
It's very easy to tell if parts are compliant, as they'll be marked as made in the USA. Regardless of anything you've ever heard, the onus will be on YOU to prove they're legal, not on them to prove they're not.
Not a good subject to discuss on line, too.
I could be wrong about the tech sights not working with the .308 Saiga. Their site says they will work for the .223 and 7.62 ones, but doesn't rule out the .308. I seem to remember the dust cover being longer on the .308s than a regular AK, but I could be wrong. Anybody have a .308 saiga and a regular AK to compare?
Im torn on tac sights for saiga after seeing a few reviews on the product. Im sure they will work things out soon but now Im looking at the Mojo sight also. Either would most likely be great.
As for the M1A yeah I would love one but good god how expensive can that thing get? Right now the Saiga 308 is one third the price of the M1A with 2 MOA or less grouping with a good shooter. Really hard to beat that AK reliability AND the 308 accuracy and range. I need to win the powerball or something...
there's always the m1 garand... same price as a saiga, somewhat more accurate and longer ranged, and pretty damn reliable in its own right. Plus on the market they're worth several hundred more than what you pay from CMP... the only downsides are mag capacity and the difficulty of mounting optics (like you need them anyway with a garand!). Oh, and if you just have to have .308 (i think .30/06 is actually cheaper right now), its pretty easy to do the conversion. bearing all those things in mind, I'll probably get a garand before I get another saiga... and i'll probably get them both before I get an m1a, unless I run across a killer deal on one. Whatever -- to each his own. Software not hardware. 8)
I have fairly serious back issues and the Garand is just so blasted heavy since I have to do all my shooting from the Standing position. Otherwise it would be the Garand for sure, but Im still looking into ways of bringing the weight down. Then again you are correct on the value of the Garand and they are going FAST. Barring government stupidity the Saiga will be around for years.
If I had known I was going to live this long I woulda taken better care of myself...
That is one thing I LOVE about the saiga... it is nice and light.
With the encouragement of Flathead I did the conversion on my 20" Saiga. Had a hard time finding a trigger group, everybody seemed to be out at the time. I bit the bullet and bought the Red Star adjustable group, best decision I could have made. Trigger pull is indeed match grade, best of any of my rifles. The side rail mount allowed me to mount a scope with the Molot mount from Kalinka, its very solid. BTW the high cap mags I have used from two different sources have been 100% I sold a PTR 91 to build the Saiga and have no regrets. Light, accurate and as reliable as gravity.
FWIW, Alex
With the Kobra optics that Alex has on his rifle it shoots like a dream!! Glad I talked him into converting it O0 I have decided to keep the one that I have left, it just shoots so good and is reliable as an AK can be. As for lightening a Garand, get the synthetic stock for it. It changes the way they handle and it a little bit lighter. The ones I have seen have a real nice rubber butt pad.
I was looking hard at those synthetic stocks but something just seems wrong about a Garand without wood, yeah Im weird like that. Also looking into the AR-10 since I wont be buying anything until I shoot a rifleman score. But the price difference between the Saiga and the AR is the cost of 1k rounds of 308. Decisions decisions...
That conversion on the Saiga is the most remarkable thing Ive ever seen on a rifle for the small effort and expense. It just makes it a whole different firearm, all Pros no Cons.
Not sure an AR-10 should be on your list. Get a copy of Boston's Gun Bible and check out his eval before you buy one...
Quote from: Fred on July 11, 2009, 01:37:04 PM
Not sure an AR-10 should be on your list. Get a copy of Boston's Gun Bible and check out his eval before you buy one...
Thanks for putting me on to that, sent me off on a whole nuther path of info collection. So it seems the converted Saiga 308 in 16" is just as accurate as the AR-10 without the "issues", cant complain about that. Have to admit the more I use an AK the more I begin to appreciate it, since break in on the Saiga Ive not had one single failure of any kind in what must be by now close to 2k rounds. It does seem however to be a bad idea to mix in brass ammo after firing steel which may the problem on the AR.
Thanks again makes things so much easier since now I can afford ammo also :) now I just need to shoot that 220!
The benefit of an x39 is the cheaper ammo - .308 is twice the price, (.223 being in the middle.)
If only RAA would import the 7.62x54R Saiga model. That would give you ammo cheaper (currently) than x39 with all the kick and distance of .308, all with AK reliability. ( I guess I could go SVD.)
For bbl on the Siaga 308 I think the 20" is the better selection. With 308 you should get better velocity and less fireball with the 20", plus a better sight radius on the iron.
Quote from: gunville on July 11, 2009, 11:10:52 PM
The benefit of an x39 is the cheaper ammo - .308 is twice the price, (.223 being in the middle.)
If only RAA would import the 7.62x54R Saiga model. That would give you ammo cheaper (currently) than x39 with all the kick and distance of .308, all with AK reliability. ( I guess I could go SVD.)
For bbl on the Siaga 308 I think the 20" is the better selection. With 308 you should get better velocity and less fireball with the 20", plus a better sight radius on the iron.
I would like that also but they dont so the 308 will do fine. The 308 is more expensive and it will force me to either do reloads or shoot it sparingly but despite its cost its very easy to find in any decent gun shop and made in the US in case of import restrictions. I love shooting my x39 its by far the most accurate true AK Ive ever held and is arguably the best MBR available for 200m and below. The AK-47 reputation for inaccuracy does not apply to the Saiga due to changes they made to remedy that without affecting that iron clad reliability.
Surprisingly, to me at least, the 16" 308 barrel is reported superior, most notable when using optics to offset sight length disadvantage. It produces slightly and I mean slightly better groups up to sub MOA. Its supposed to be due to less flex when fired. So given the easier handling of the 16" makes it a better choice for me since it will have optics, flash suppressor, and plenty of velocity for 400m. By using reloads the burn rate can be adjusted to expend all powder in 16".
But that's just me and I tend to over complicate things and at times that fireball is fun... ;D
Quote from: Rhodes on July 12, 2009, 12:33:01 AM
But that's just me and I tend to over complicate things and at times that fireball is fun... ;D
Yeah, I like my MN M38 flamethrower!
So much for good neighbors on the firing line! **)
I think that rumor about barrel whip on the 20 inchers only applied to the older model saigas, when the other company was importing them... Supposedly they have a little heavier barrel on the ones RAA is bringing in. On mine, the barrel was at least as heavy as an m14 or an m1a, and it shot fine. It would have no problem shooting a rifleman's score with cheap ammo. The muzzle blast and recoil are a lot more bearable than my friend's 16" was. A muzzle flash that can be spotted from a mile away is a big negative factor for a MBR in my opinion. I know you can handload, but I want to be able to rely on surplus ammo if necessary.
I don't know about the actual AR-10s made by Armalite, but my DPMS LR-308C (a 20" AR in .308) is significantly more accurate than my saiga was. so far it has been completely reliable, too. FWHIW.
The AR-10s I've shot were slightly more accurate than the saigas I've shot (All 308). But I would question their reliability in real world. Anyone whos been to a Toccoa Mud Bowl knows how bad it can get. Its gas piston for me. Well maybe delayed blowback (word to the CETME).
J
Quote from: Rhodes on July 11, 2009, 12:12:50 PM
Also looking into the AR-10 since I wont be buying anything until I shoot a rifleman score. But the price difference between the Saiga and the AR is the cost of 1k rounds of 308. Decisions decisions...
The Saiga .308 meets the minimum requirements for accuracy of a rifle according to the Appleseed formula but is far from a precision rifle. An Armalite AR10 is factory guaranteed to be 1.5 MOA or better. I have personally owned 3 and fired thousands of rounds through them. Mine were all 1MOA or better. I would personally recommend an Armalite to anyone who wants an accurate reliable .308 and can afford it. A few years ago, Armalite addressed the reliability issues which SOME AR10 owners were experiencing. Jamming was far from the norm, but with the advent of the internet, it does not take many problems for rumors to spread. Armalite then applied the "upgrades" which they applied to problem rifles to all rifles which left the factory. My Armalites along with those of my friends who own or have owned them has been nothing less than excellent. I still have my first AR10 which was purchased over 10 years ago, long before any of the running upgrades. I still use the old style magazines in it and it has never let me down.
Here is a quote regarding the Boston Gun Bible review:
QuoteThe Armalite AR-10 was poised to be first but ranked last in reliability. But the author based his evaluation of the AR-10's reliability on reports on the rifle rather than his own hands on experience.
Quote from: Rhodes on July 11, 2009, 01:59:04 PM
So it seems the converted Saiga 308 in 16" is just as accurate as the AR-10 without the "issues", cant complain about that.
Surprisingly, to me at least, the 16" 308 barrel is reported superior, most notable when using optics to offset sight length disadvantage. It produces slightly and I mean slightly better groups up to sub MOA.
My personal experiences with the 2 Saiga 16" .308s I have owned were different. Although reliable as expected, the best groups with either using optics were between 2-3 MOA.
Quote from: Appalacious on July 13, 2009, 04:39:23 PM
The AR-10s I've shot were slightly more accurate than the saigas I've shot (All 308). But I would question their reliability in real world.
I would have no qualms grabbing my AR10 or AR15 off of the rack for any "real world" purpose I may need them for including for those purposes which my life were to depend upon. I have been using the direct impingement gas system for nearly 20 years on active duty and off and I have no compelling urge to make the switch.
I wonder if Boston's review of the AR10 would be the same today. When he wrote it, the Armalite was the only premium one available. I've also got a DPMS & it's a 1 MOA shooter. I've had no reliability issues other than it's rather picky ammo appetite due to a tight .308 chamber (it doesn't like privi 7.62, but has fed evrything with a NATO headstamp w/o a problem). The biggest shortfalls I see in the DPMS are mag expense and lack of parts interchangability with anything else. If you get one buy some extra parts and be prepared to wait, DPMS lead time for spares is slooow.
Guy
The whole AK vs AR thing has been done to death and it is basically apples and oranges. Given the 308 is an improvement over the x39 for longer range the 308 Saiga is an improvement if a costly one. At times I am perfectly happy with the reality of 99% of use being under 100 yards much less 300. Other times I would like a bit more range, tough calls given resources.
The problem with accuracy has has been stated is it most often is gained though tightening the specs on critical areas that unfortunately cost you somewhat in other areas. A picky eater is a reliability issue as much as a weapon that jams. At times we under appreciate reliability because it does not show up on a score card. All are really subjective.
Well I did have to do something I did not wish but Im glad for once. I found a new 21" 308 Saiga for 399.00 about 150.00 or more under current pricing. Yes I have some work to do on the rifle to make it into what i wish but heh I enjoy it any way. So I have my 308 MBR project and when finished most likely will sell the x39 if all turns out well. Hope to get some benefit of the vase knowledge base on the 308 that resides here as this will be my first 308 project.