Watch this video http://youtu.be/XJOaIKvRASs (http://youtu.be/XJOaIKvRASs)
What do you think?
Interesting. They key is consistency. I can see how this would help you with elevation and windage, but eye relief - not as much.
Could see it work, not planning to teach it, but will try it and see what happens.
The Vulcan in me likes the physics behind her suggestion. I agree that we shouldn't be teaching it during Appleseeds, unless necessary.
For safety, I want as much of the area around my target to be visible. As a shooter, it would unnerve me to have that much area hidden. Consistency can be achieved by building up the comb if necessary, turkey neck and solid cheek weld. Is this not what we teach, over and over?
UL
Quote from: Whippet on February 19, 2013, 08:14:28 PM
The Vulcan in me likes the physics behind her suggestion. I agree that we shouldn't be teaching it during Appleseeds, unless necessary.
Driving home from work I got to thinking that she is making her scope into an apeture sight. In essence her front sight becomes the crosshairs (which should be the crisp part) and the rear sight becomes the fuzzy circle of the apeture sight reproduced via eye relief. Beyond just controlling where her head rests, it also could assist in focussing the eye on the crosshairs.
Now, she is sacrificing field of view, but if you are target practicing, that may be a boon as it reduces distraction. In field shooting, not so much.
Definitely an interesting trick/tactic/technique/gamingthesystem/something.
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on February 19, 2013, 10:28:24 PM
For safety, I want as much of the area around my target to be visible. As a shooter, it would unnerve me to have that much area hidden. Consistency can be achieved by building up the comb if necessary, turkey neck and solid cheek weld. Is this not what we teach, over and over?
UL
You are correct UL, what you said is what we teach. In field shooting you want that field of view and with 4 MOA shooting the .5 moa advantage tricks are not as important as solid skills.
I think this was posted more as a "thinking outside the box" thing more than anything else.
I think it is an interesting idea. I have a rifle , with scope, that had me thinking the same thing but it had not gelled....jelled?....solidified itself yet. It's a perfectly inadequate scope, fixed 4x, and while testing some hand loads I twitched my head around for each shot, checking the vignette to assure I was centered decently. I have no idea what I looked like doing that.
This experiment gives me the perfect excuse to buy the new scope I had been eyeballing ....how awful for me.
I really wonder where this whole "focus on the crosshairs" thing comes from. I never heard it from Fred. Never heard it from AMU, never heard it from Carlos Hathcock, never heard it from Sherri Gallagher, and I never heard it from any of the snipers or designated marksmen I have known.
The reason that we focus on the front sight with irons is that we have 3 sight planes (rear, front and target). It is impossible to focus simultaneously on all three. Focusing on the rear (if possible), puts the other two out of focus and will lead to gross inaccuracies. Focusing on the target will make the two sights out of focus and hurt accuracy. Focus on the front sight combined with a good position and natural point of aim will lead to the best accuracy with irons.
But... With a scope there aren't three planes.
Some of you will have heard of David Tubb. If you haven't, go Google "David Tubb" and "High Power." You will see that he is the 11 time High Power National Champion, a multi time Silhouette National Champion, rifle inventor, coach and instructor. OK, now that we are done with that we will move to a quote from his first book about shooting Highpower Rifle, 1993.
"Now, the ideal way to shoot a target, in my opinion, is to focus on a spot on the target, maintain focus on that spot, and bring the sight to it. That's exactly what the rifle-scope allows us to do in silhouette." p22
When a silhouette shooter who has won a combined 30 national titles in the sports four categories tells me about using a scope, I listen. Others can do as they choose.
Something in the video that seems to have gone unnoticed is "a relaxed neck and upright head position." If you ever worked with me at an Appleseed you know the TPI instruction for explaining an upright head position that I use (as taught to me by VAShooter).
AS teaches the turkey neck to try to make sure that the shooters head is in the same position every time so that we can center our eye behind the rear sight. Kirsten Weiss (in her aiming video) uses a hair tie as a type of spot weld. The goal is the same, have your head in the same position every time. You might use a spot weld, you might use nose to charging handle, or you might use your thumb, but make sure it the the same every time. If you can do this while still keeping your head upright (for offhand) and neck relaxed. You may see your scores rising.
Quote from: jmdavis on February 20, 2013, 01:24:00 AM
I really wonder where this whole "focus on the crosshairs" thing comes from.
From the Instructor Manual: "Scopes create a single focal plane, and you should focus on the reticle, not the target."
UL
I propose the following idea for everyone's consideration.
Reticle focus allows your brain to micro adjust by moving the reticle in the positive while target focus forces negative adjustments. Perhaps this example will help clarify.
If your POA is @ 3:00
with eye focus on reticle...
brain want reticle to move left...
brian tells muscles to move left
If your POA is @ 3:00
with eye focus on target...
brain wants target to move right
brain has to "translate" an tell muscles to move left
For a new shooter, it would seem the mental-physiological connection works better without the translation? That would still allow for target focus once muscle memory (via repetitions) has largely removed most of the physiological component out of the mix? Once a shooter is at a certain skill level, perhaps the body is largely on autopilot and then the mind does its own thing? The above applies even to adjustable focal-plane scopes, fixed focal-plane scopes, dots and irons...at least conceptually.
Regarding Mr. Tubb: Tubb is freak-of-nature (I intend that as a compliment). When he is in shooting position, I think statutes move more than he does.
PLEASE take the above with a grain of salt. I am but a lowly IIT-007 so I am the FNG here.
Long live the Republic.
I
Quote from: Unbridled Liberty on February 20, 2013, 07:16:48 AM
Quote from: jmdavis on February 20, 2013, 01:24:00 AM
I really wonder where this whole "focus on the crosshairs" thing comes from.
From the Instructor Manual: "Scopes create a single focal plane, and you should focus on the reticle, not the target."
UL
Interesting!
I wonder who wrote that?
If parallax is correct, both the reticle and the target will be in focus (they are in the same plane). If this is the case why would you focus on the reticle? As a hunter I focus on the target, as a competition shooter (High Power, 3 gun, silhouette) with a scoped rifle I focus on the target. My point is that in the same plane, it doesn't matter where accuracy is concerned and with a stationary target it's not really an issue either. With a moving or potentially moving target however, I definitely want to focus on the target.
With irons, even with an aperature front or with a correcting lens that allows both the target and the front sight to be in clear focus, one should still focus on the front sight at the time of firing. The data show this to be most accurate. That doesn't mean that you should stare at it however. Staring at it will be counter productive and bring it out of focus and when that happens you may need to run your eye back to the target and then come back to the front sight and fire. If you stared too long, you will want to take a breath and start your shot process over.
To be clear we are discussing precision slowfire.
For more interesting thoughts on aiming, might I recommend the first video of the mentioned series.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-ufEM5wXQg
Other resources include Nancy Tompkins'
Precision and Long Range Shooting, David Tubb's
HighPower Rifle and
Rifle Shooter, and the Army Marksmanship Unit's Service and International shooting guides (available from CMP you want to read both because you will find some important information in the International guide). If you really want to look at smallbore, MEC's
Ways of the Rifle-2009 is a very good and detailed book that many high power shooters use to improve their positions.
Learning to shoot well is a process that takes commitment and practice. But it can be done relatively quickly if you can dedicate the time. An example of this is the Marine Corps summer team at Quantico. I shot 4 matches with them last year. A couple of the guys were brand new. They went from shooting expert scores on their qualifications (80%+) to shooting master (94% to 96%) and high master (97%+) scores across the course (Offhand 200 yards, sitting rapid 200 yards, rapid prone 300 yards, slow prone 600 yards) and long range (1000 yards slowfire prone) in a few months of 8 hour days. For most of us that amount of shooting would take place over a year or two. But it can be done.
Quote from: Whippet on February 20, 2013, 10:32:00 AM
I propose the following idea for everyone's consideration.
Reticle focus allows your brain to micro adjust by moving the reticle in the positive while target focus forces negative adjustments. Perhaps this example will help clarify.
If your POA is @ 3:00
with eye focus on reticle...
brain want reticle to move left...
brian tells muscles to move left
If your POA is @ 3:00
with eye focus on target...
brain wants target to move right
brain has to "translate" an tell muscles to move left
For a new shooter, it would seem the mental-physiological connection works better without the translation? That would still allow for target focus once muscle memory (via repetitions) has largely removed most of the physiological component out of the mix? Once a shooter is at a certain skill level, perhaps the body is largely on autopilot and then the mind does its own thing? The above applies even to adjustable focal-plane scopes, fixed focal-plane scopes, dots and irons...at least conceptually.
Regarding Mr. Tubb: Tubb is freak-of-nature (I intend that as a compliment). When he is in shooting position, I think statutes move more than he does.
PLEASE take the above with a grain of salt. I am but a lowly IIT-007 so I am the FNG here.
Long live the Republic.
I believe key is not to over think it. All we really care about is where the crosshair is on the target when both are in the same plane.
But you are thinking about the act of shooting and the more that you do that and test your ideas the better you will become. That is true regardless of your skill level or level within an organization.
If you read Tubb, you will discover that he worked very hard (and smart) to obtain his skills. He credits some of his success to being squadded with shooters like Gary Anderson I have heard this from other National Champions as well. Many of them do not believe that they are particularly gifted shooters. They work hard, think about it, and look for improvements. They seek to turn ideas into processes and then use those processes to become better. They seek out coaches and mentors. They shoot as often as they can and they take their lumps in competition.
Here is what Tubb says about his shooting in "HighPower Rifle." His first big match was the Texas State Championship. He was 15. In Offhand he had problems with his loads and only shot a 130/200. Another shooter gave him some ammunition and he shot 190's in the rapids and finished with a Sharpshooter classification (84-87%). "I shot way over my head. It was actually lucky that the bullets blew up or I would have ended up with an Expert or Master score my first time out. My scores came down from that match and it was a struggle for a while."
The six steps formalize the act of shooting. They create a process that can be followed and bring more consistent results. With more practice that consistency results in better shooting. But military shooters don't use the six steps. They often use a process called BRASS (Breath, relax, aim, slack, squeeze). There are others as well. But the important thing is that you create a system that works for you.
Good luck.
Minor point:
Most of our scopes on the line are not proper parallax. Most are $20-50 at best.
Not a huge point, but a real one. Remember - Appleseed rack grade, 4 MOA, and run what got brung.
Quote from: Whippet on February 20, 2013, 10:32:00 AM
Reticle focus allows your brain to micro adjust by moving the reticle in the positive while target focus forces negative adjustments. Perhaps this example will help clarify.
Having worn glasses since 1st grade, I tend to shift my head instead of my eyes for even very small changes in direction.
I do find it helpful to
mostly focus on the reticle. Once I've acquired sight alignment I feel focusing on the reticle helps me maintain cheek weld and I adjust the aligned sights onto the target rather than pulling my eye out of line (to the target), possibly loosening my cheek weld as my head may want to follow my eye even that little bit, and then trying to simultaneously reestablish sight alignment and sight picture.
I know, we're talking mighty small adjustments here, the mechanical aspects are probably overstated--we're not talking bringing the Guns of Navarone on target here. It's probably mostly psychological. (It can kind of
look like you're bringing the Guns of Navarone on target with enough imagination. :pop: ) But anything that helps me stay mentally focused on doing things "by the numbers" is handy. (Look! A chicken!)
This will likely be dismissed because I speak from short range benchrest experience, however, I will attempt it anyway. ::) ;D
In order to perfect the bench technique to shoot tiny little groups, consistency is vital. We allow the rifle to free recoil to obtain the ultimate accuracy. The only body part to touch the rifle is the very tip of your trigger finger so in order to consistently align the scope on the target, you have to use the method that Kristen is teaching.
Benchresters have been doing this for years. Everything we know about marksmanship and rifle accuracy has been thoroughly vetted on a short range benchrest firing line.
turbo
The concept of focusing on the reticle and not on the target in a scope was in the original manual and apparently came from its author, Junior Birdman and has been carried over in succeeding versions. Of course, it is related to a fuzzy target with iron sights. In the upcoming revision to the manual I state that in a scope, the target and the reticle will both appear in the same plane. Therefore, it is NOT necessary to focus only on the reticle. In some cheaper scopes the target may not focus quite as clearly as it does in better scopes, but both images will still be in the same plane anyway, so it is still not necessary to focus only on the reticle. The new manual should be out very soon.
Quote from: jrturbo on February 20, 2013, 12:14:49 PM
This will likely be dismissed because I speak from short range benchrest experience, however, I will attempt it anyway. ::) ;D
In order to perfect the bench technique to shoot tiny little groups, consistency is vital. We allow the rifle to free recoil to obtain the ultimate accuracy. The only body part to touch the rifle is the very tip of your trigger finger so in order to consistently align the scope on the target, you have to use the method that Kristen is teaching.
Benchresters have been doing this for years. Everything we know about marksmanship and rifle accuracy has been thoroughly vetted on a short range benchrest firing line.
turbo
It won't be dismissed by me. I would add the smallbore ranges, and the Long Range ranges as well. But it's a darn good point.
When I started shooting again in the 1990's I shot with several BR50 National Champions and record holders. As a matter of fact the nationals were held several years at a range that hosts AS here in VA. It was totally impossible for me to compete because even then it was a money game and I had very little money. But I learned a lot from them. I spoke with one of these men who is still active in the sport just last week to find out how he used Kroil in cleaning his BR50 rifle ( It works very well to remove wax from target rifles). His secret was to mix it 1:1 with Pro-Shot bore cleaner.
But there is a reason why the very best shooters do certain things. It is usually because it works. It may not be the only way, but if you want to shoot like them you need to watch them and learn from them.
Again we are talking precision shooting.
Very interesting. Seems that this would give great consistency, but nature is throwing me a curveball here. I'm trying this out with a scope and wondering if an astigmatism would complicate the technique? The vignette I see is not round, kinda egg shaped. Tried two scopes now, glasses off or on, both the same. It is far closer to being a round vignette with my left eye than with my right though.
How bad is the astigmatism and what other issue do you have? I could see you needing glasses to bring it in focus.
When you shoot with a scope at a bullseye, is it round?