Hey all,
I'm excited to announce that, after 2 years of sitting on the fence, I finally sent in my paperwork to the CMP today for 2 (yes, 2!) M1 Garands. The longest 45-90 days of my life start.........now.
Now, I know there's a plethora of information out there on the internet about the M1; I've already sifted through a lot of it. What I really want to know is:
1) What kind of ammo do the Garands prefer? (Please don't say .30-06. I'm ignorant, but not that ignorant!)
2) Where's the best (and cheapest) place to get said ammo?
3) What's up with the Greek ammo over at CMP?
4) My local gun store frequently has boxes of Korean surplus .30-06, is that stuff any good?
I'm new to Garand world, so please forgive my ignorance. If you have links to any reputable web sites that cover these issues, I would love to educate myself. I figured this was a great place to start since I trust my fellow Appleseeders way more than some anonymous yahoo out there on the interwebs.
Thanks!
I've found the Korean surplus to be good for bending op rods. Good luck finding .30-06 suitable for the M1 anywhere BUT CMP right now (and if you do, PM me!)
In brief:
1) with the right pressure curve, otherwise you will eventually damage the operating rod, bolt, and reciever the designation is M2 ball, ammo not loaded to those specs should not be used
from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield
A new cartridge was developed in 1938 that was essentially a duplicate of the old M1906 round, but loaded with IMR 4895 propellant and a new flat-based bullet that had gilding metal jacket and a different lead alloy and weighed 152 grains (9.8 g) instead of 150 grains (9.7 g). This 1938 pattern cartridge, the Cartridge .30 M2 Ball achieved a muzzle velocity of 2,805 ft/s (855 m/s) and muzzle energy of 2,655 ft·lbf (3,600 J).
2) the CMP, last I checked, was 55 cents per round, plus shipping It used to come on en-bloc clips, 192 rounds to the .30 cal can, now it's 20 round boxes
3) Greek HXP headstamped ammo is good, made for Garands given to Greece
post-WW II, I believe it was made on US tooling w/ US assistance setting up the production line, non-corrosive, boxer-primed
4) from my research, go w/ the Greek HXP
PRVI PARTIZAN (originally from Yugoslavia, now Serbia) (was Hansen brand at one time, now sometimes marketed as Wolf Gold) also makes an M2 load The former Yugoslavia posessed many .30 cal M1919 machine guns, so they duplicated the ammo.
2 kinds of South Korean 30-06, made for Garands we gave them, again on US tooling.
2 kinds of headstamps, KA and PS
KA is not supposed to test corrosive, but importers were told some corrosive primers were mixed in during production, so clean acordingly PS and post-1970 manufacture are reported non-corrosive
here are some of the reported results for PS lot numbers back when it was being imported in the original cans and packaging:
PS 2-033 (Bad - one report - unspecified problem)
PS 2-035
PS 2-088
PS 2-090
PS 2-093
PS 2-094
PS 2-097
PS 2-098
PS 2-100
PS 2-101
PS 2-104 (one positive report based on very few rounds fired)
PS 2-105 (one positive report based on a few hundred rounds)
PS 2-122
PS 2-124
PS 2-127
PS 2-128
PS 2-135
PS 2-144
PS 2-145
PS 2-146
PS 2-147
PS 2-148
PS 2-149
PS 2-151 (Maybe OK - based on VERY limited information)
PS 2-152 (VERY Bad - numerous reports of ruptured heads!)
PS 2-154 (Some positive reports / negative report [splits] based on sketchy info)
PS 2-155 (Bad - one report of splits 2 out of 250 rds)
PS 2-156 (??? - there are reports it's fine - one report of splits)
PS 2-157
PS 2-161
PS 2-165
PS 2-169
PS 2-171 (one negative report of blown primers)
PS 2-173
PS 2-177
PS 2-181
PS 2-183
PS 2-184
PS 2-185 (One negative report but only on hearsay)
PS 2-186
PS 2-187
PS 2-192
PS 2-193 (??? - some of this lot badly corroded)
PS 2-194
PS 2-195
PS 2-198
PS 2-204
PS 2-205
PS 2-152 (VERY BAD - DANGER - numerous reports of ruptured heads!)
PS 2-154 (VERY BAD - DANGER - multiple negative reports splits and ruptured head)
PS 2-155 (VERY BAD - DANGER - multiple negative reports splits and ruptured head)
PS 2-156 (BAD - multiple reports of serious splits)
PS 2-158 (VERY BAD - DANGER - Nasty split cases...all the way to the head of the case)
PS 2-161 (reports of leaking primers, one blown)
PS 2-165 (Bad - multiple reports of leaking primers and one report of serious split case from mid-case into head, but not through rim)
If your range permits projectiles which are attracted to a magnet, then order the limit on CMP ammo NOW.
That gives you enough brass to get many years of reloading done.
Next investment becomes setting up for reloading. There are M1 specific reloading articles available. (One article is attached, but I have a 2nd longer one that is too large to be attached here. Send me a PM with your email and I will forward that article to any one who is interested. )
1.) Hand-loads tailored to your rifle, or failing that USGI or HXP M2 ball
2.) The CMP, hands down
3.) HXP is good to go. My CMP M1 loves HXP and will hit steel at 400 all day with it. It's good for at least 4 MOA with a rack grade rifle. Buy lots and stack it deep. @)
4.) Personally I would never use Korean (PS or KA headstamp) on my M1. Too many variables with the lots (split necks, blown primers, corrosive) to justify the cost. Money is better spent buying a single stage press and processing your saved brass
There is nothing more gratifying then taking a student up to KD on Sunday, handing them your M1 and watching that moment when they realize that everything at 25 correlates to 200, 300, 400 and 500 (3, 3, 4)
CMP forums (http://forums.thecmp.org/) are a good repository of information as well
CMP HXP is great ammo for any US rifle. I have shot several thousand rounds of Korean KA though my Garands with no problems , it smokes a little and is a little dirtier than the Greek. Just do a good cleaning right after you shoot ,as in that night. The Korean PS on the other hand has all kinds of problems ,split cases from brittle brass for one. I've never got a bad rifle from CMP, twenty something rifles later. HXP is great for reloading , even better than LC brass imho.
The M1 was designed using the 173 grain M1 ball. M2 ball was adopted after the rifle was designed. It is not bullet weight or pressure that is the problem. The problem is the burn rate of the powder, a problem with any gas operated rifle.
Commercial ammo can be used, you just have to know which ones. Check out this page:
http://www.garandgear.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106:shooting-commercial-ammunition-in-your-m1-garand&catid=39
Eric has done a lot of work on testing ammo to find which ones replicate the M2 loadings. A lot of good info here. He also sells a gas cylinder lock screw that allows the use of non-USGI loads.
As others suggest, the CMP forums have a LOT of info on the rifle.
Any experience with the new American Eagle that is loaded for the Garand?
Thanks to all of you for the info. I have a lot more to learn, but at least now I know that I can't go wrong with the CMP Greek ammo. I'll be sure to order some ASAP.
One more question: The closest long-distance range to my house does not allow ammo that attracts a magnet. So no shooting the Greek ammo there. Any suggestions on what my options would be in that case?
Also, thanks for the CMP Forum idea. I hadn't even realized that existed. I'll be checking that out for sure.
Quote from: Gunman Doc on February 08, 2013, 03:33:57 AM......
One more question: The closest long-distance range to my house does not allow ammo that attracts a magnet. So no shooting the Greek ammo there. Any suggestions on what my options would be in that case?
My buddy just got a couple cans of HXP and pulled the bullets, saved the powder and reloaded with 168gr HPBT Noslers. I think he even sold the pulled bullets for a good price.
Dave
The CMP forums should have all you need to know. Going thru old posts is a ton of info. Also, under Ask Each Other section, subheading at the top Reloading. You're gonna have all that brass..... ;)
I have used the 168gr smk hpbt load from this site... very accurate and safe for your Garand.
http://www.jarheadtop.com/FAQ_M1_Garand_Loads.htm
Also PRVI Partizan makes new manufacture M2 ball that is very high quality in reloadable boxer primed brass. Aim Surplus gets it from time to time.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=AP3006CAN&name=Prvi+Partizan+PPU+30.06+FMJ+150grn+500rd+can&groupid=27
CH
Ammo loaded for the garand is done with powders in the IMR 4895-4064 range of speed and pressure. Most all mil spec is loaded similarly. There's a lot of good info in many places. All of the recomendations here are good, although some of the Korean is corrosive.
Another thing is that the garand is to be lubed with grease, NOT oil. This is in all the military manuals and has a lot to do with parts longevity. The manual explains this and shows the areas to be greased. You should be getting one with the rifle. It can be done without disassembly. I used oil once and the op rod self dismounted while shooting!
In one test a shooter ran several hundreds of heavy bullet (200grain) hunting ammo thru his garand that was lubed with grease, and it performed and functioned fine, no issues. He then cleaned it, removed all grease and used oil and bent the op rod in 7 rounds. Heavy bullets and slow powders are not recommended for gas guns.
Use the right ammo and grease for lube. It will make your garand happy and last a long time.
Quote from: Gunman Doc on February 08, 2013, 03:33:57 AM
One more question: The closest long-distance range to my house does not allow ammo that attracts a magnet. So no shooting the Greek ammo there. Any suggestions on what my options would be in that case?
1. Get an RCBS Collet Bullet Puller.
2. Pull the projectile, keep the existing powder in the case.
3. Replace with another projectile of IDENTICAL WEIGHT (one which is not attracted to a magnet)
4. Seat the bullet using the reloading die bullet seater
5. Crimp the neck using a reloading crimp die
There will be a black tar-like substance on the pulled bullets. This is a waterproofing seal to keep the powder dry. It will take a bit of force to pull the bullets due to the tar seal, thus a kinetic puller is fairly ineffective.
Even with this extra work and cost these rounds are still cheaper than anything else you can buy to feed your M1
Quote from: TOMINCT on February 08, 2013, 10:56:00 AM
Ammo loaded for the garand is done with powders in the IMR 4895-4064 range of speed and pressure. Most all mil spec is loaded similarly. There's a lot of good info in many places. All of the recomendations here are good, although some of the Korean is corrosive.
Another thing is that the garand is to be lubed with grease, NOT oil. This is in all the military manuals and has a lot to do with parts longevity. The manual explains this and shows the areas to be greased. You should be getting one with the rifle. It can be done without disassembly. I used oil once and the op rod self dismounted while shooting!
In one test a shooter ran several hundreds of heavy bullet (200grain) hunting ammo thru his garand that was lubed with grease, and it performed and functioned fine, no issues. He then cleaned it, removed all grease and used oil and bent the op rod in 7 rounds. Heavy bullets and slow powders are not recommended for gas guns.
Use the right ammo and grease for lube. It will make your garand happy and last a long time.
The old salts will already know this stuff but there a wealth of good information, including greasing the M1, in this site: www.garandgear.com (http://www.garandgear.com) They also make a gas cylinder screw which will allow you to safely shoot commercial hunting ammo. Haven't tried it but it might be an option for those who need it.
I ordered some HXP. There is now a limit and a up to a 3 month wait. So don't delay if you have been putting it off.
I ordered over 2 months ago and am expecting it soon.
The $35 "ported" plug works great byw. All my M1's have them.
http://www.garandgear.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106:shooting-commercial-ammunition-in-your-m1-garand&catid=39
Any good links on recipes to reload for a Garand?
PK
Quote from: Pain Killer on February 08, 2013, 01:28:50 PM
Any good links on recipes to reload for a Garand?
Yes.
One provided as an attachment earlier in this discussion.
Another (too large to attach here) available by email upon request.
PK
IMR4895 pushing a 150g pill at 2750 is what M1s like.
I never give out loads. Get a good manual. :)
Quote from: douglas34474 on February 08, 2013, 06:08:19 PM
IMR4895 pushing a 150g pill at 2750 is what M1s like.
I never give out loads. Get a good manual. :)
To be clear: I am not giving out loads. I am providing published material regarding reloading for the M1 Garand that may be difficult to find.
I have a pdf "The Complete Guide To Reloading For The M1 Garand".
Could be the same one Eaglescout has.
Lot of great info here. I have a couple M1 Garand's. I've shot several hundred rounds of Hornady M2 Ball. It is 150 grain FMJ. It's available in 100 rd. bulk and is loaded to specs for the M1. And it's made in the U.S.A. I have also used the CMP available Greek HXP. Both have performed flawlessly in both of my M1's. I also handload for my M1's when I take them to J.C. Garand matches to shoot 200 yards. Get a good reload manual and USE the correct and recommended powders, if you decide to handload. You must use the correct burn rate powder. Both of my Garands are still "as issued". If you feed them with the right stuff, you don't need adjustable gas ports. Most handloaders won't give out load info. Too much liability. Just use the good info from a good reload manual. Enjoy!
Quote from: Dude on February 09, 2013, 03:23:01 AM
I have a pdf "The Complete Guide To Reloading For The M1 Garand".
Could be the same one Eaglescout has.
Thanks, that's one I don't have.
The file I am providing is from American Rifleman "Reloading for the M1 Garand" March 1986 and contains the largest table of reloading recipes that I have encountered for this specific rifle.
There is a device that is used to replace the gas plug on Garands (and M14/M1A's) that reduce the gas pressure 'felt' by the oprod. This allows the use of more 'modern' (hunting) ammo. I've used a Schuster adjustable gas plug for years with very good results.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/777146/schuster-dcm-adjustable-gas-plug-with-wrench-m1-garand-steel-parkerized
Quote from: Pain Killer on February 08, 2013, 01:28:50 PM
Any good links on recipes to reload for a Garand?
The Hornady reloading manual has a section of .30-06 loads specifically for the Garand (and also special sections for AR15 service rifle and M1A service rifle). The Sierra reloading manual also has special sections on the gas operated service rifle 'flavors' of cartridge loadings for Garand, M1A, and AR15 too.
But back to commercial loadings: Hornady makes some
excellent .30-06 M1 Garand match ammo (168gr AMax). I am aware of Federal manufacturing ammo for Garands, but I have no experience with it. HXP and most anything military surplus should be good, but I see a poster above pointed out that some headstamps of Korean surplus was bad stuff?
best option - get the CMP HXP while you can
another good option - any new ammo .30-06 that is *specifically labeled* for Garand
next best option - cheep non-corrosive steel cased .30-06 and install an adjustable gas plug
Take a look at this site. Luckily I live very close to them and they are Nationally known.
http://www.m1garand.com/
it's a bit pricey, but the Hornady Amax match for Garand is just awesome. shot 97-4x from prone with it with a mixmaster service grade and all shots were landing right on top of one another. 3 in the 9, corrected, 3 in the 10 corrected, 4 in the x. I stocked up at the CMP eastern games.