I am getting ready to reload some .223 and 5.56. Most of my brass has been picked up from a range. I am trying to make sure everything I think is 5.56 is in fact 5.56. I am swaging the primer pockets and finding that most offer little or no resistance, have a ring around the pocket and markings such as "LC" or "WCC" and what seems to be a year "06" "07" "11" and a little circle with a cross in it. Some is clearly marked 5.56, some have a more pronouced crimp and a few seem to have beveled pockets with a nice cut of about 45 degrees.
The .223 brass seems to be clearly marked ".223 REM" or similar.
Does this all sound correct or is there .223 brass that isn't clearly marked as such?
I do lots of them. 5.56 is a chamber spec (throat), not a case spec. 5.56 and .223 dies are the same. Sort your brass by head stamp and work up loads for each. Mil-spec 5.56 tends to have thicker walls/less internal space so a load that works in a thin case .223 might over pressure in a thick walled 5.56.......O.L.
Quote from: oladcock on December 30, 2012, 02:57:21 AM
I do lots of them. 5.56 is a chamber spec (throat), not a case spec. 5.56 and .223 dies are the same. Sort your brass by head stamp and work up loads for each. Mil-spec 5.56 tends to have thicker walls/less internal space so a load that works in a thin case .223 might over pressure in a thick walled 5.56.......O.L.
I meant I am trying to sort them so I don't get a .223 load in a 5.56 or vise versa.
A circle with an X or + in it (depending on how you view it) is a NATO marking, meaning it is 5.56x45. LC as far as I know means Lake City, which only produces 5.56x45. WCC after a precursory internet search is also apparently military 5.56 brass. That search made it sound like you might have to resize the WCC brass a bit more than others.
Quote from: Edheler on December 30, 2012, 09:54:57 PM
A circle with an X or + in it (depending on how you view it) is a NATO marking, meaning it is 5.56x45. LC as far as I know means Lake City, which only produces 5.56x45. WCC after a precursory internet search is also apparently military 5.56 brass. That search made it sound like you might have to resize the WCC brass a bit more than others.
Thanks, sounds like I have it pretty well sorted correctly.
The most important consideration for a reloader when using range pickup brass, is whether the brass has already been reloaded before, and if so, how many times. Its a question that you usually have no way of knowing the answer to.
Military brass (LC, WCC, IMI, et al) have a 'feature' that allows you to visually check if it has be reloaded before- the primer crimp.
In order to reload military brass, you first have to remove the crimp that holds the primer in- you can't put a new primer in with the old crimp in place.
Take a look at this picture:
(http://firearms4u.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/SuperSwage-3.jpg)
Here you have both a crimped round (on right) and a case that has had its crimp removed.
If you are sorting brass by headstamp (and you should be) take note of which are supposed to have a primer crimp, but don't. I don't trust 'em. It means that a reloader had those cases before, and for some reason, unknown to you, decided to leave them on the range... Could be that they just lost the cases, could be that they didn't have time to pick em up, or it could be that they've reloaded 'em so many times that they have reached (or exceeded) their life expectancy.
Some brass that is known to have a crimp, even if not military spec:
LC (Lake City) of all years, with and without the NATO cross
WCC Winchester Cartridge Company (military contract)
FC Federal Cartridge weak crimp, not a military load
PMC Some does, some doesn't- Korean manufactured, some gets made to .mil spec
IMI Israeli Military Industries - military spec
Not an exhaustive list, but covers the most common ones you'll find on the range.
I try not to bring up old topics but this is very related i think as it could add another layer of confusion to the sorting hat.
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I'm sure this has been asked, but I'm not seeing a link at the moment. While I'm looking.. here's my question.
I'm aware that the EXTERNAL dimensions on a 5.56 are the same as .223 but the INTERNAL are different. When i shoot a 5.56 (out of a 5.56 barrel) all is well. When i then reload that brass using a .223 die... is it .223 or still 5.56?
I'm ASSUMING the brass stretches out the brass to reform the internal dimensions to that of .223 vice 5.56, but would rather not blow up my barrel or worse based on an assumption.
should you then sort this brass as (5.56, resized to .223) and put in a (twice fired) bucket?
Quote from: m1agsr on July 14, 2016, 04:01:34 PM
When i then reload that brass using a .223 die... is it .223 or still 5.56?
I'm ASSUMING the brass stretches out the brass to reform the internal dimensions to that of .223 vice 5.56, but would rather not blow up my barrel or worse based on an assumption.
Do you have a reloading manual? It should make clear exactly what your die is doing to that brass, and it should give you the case dimensions (including thicknesses) which will answer your question. Sorry if that sounds unhelpful, but you need to really understand what's going on here, and your question makes me nervous. As mentioned previously, military brass will have a reduced case volume, so reduce your load and watch for overpressure signs. How much and what do you look for? Your reloading manual should tell you this. Read it, then read it again.
I suppose it's time to clarify a few things and bust a myth or two. Firstly, in 5.56 military brass is NOT thicker than commercial brass. This myth persists from the days of 30 caliber brass (30-06 and 308) where it's true, however in 223/556 it's simply not true. The truth is thicker brass is thicker. Simple as that. Lake City and WCC military brass in fact tend to be thinner than most commercial brass.
If you're really worried about it weigh some and see for yourself. Or if you're really really worked up about it measure the water capacity. Or just sort them by headstamp and move on, which is what I suggest.
As for sizing, there is only one type of die because there is no difference between 556 and 223 as it relates to the case. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. There IS a difference in the rifle chamber, however the difference in the 556 vs 223 chamber is ONLY in the leade. That's basically the free space that the bullet must cross before it encounters the rifling. In a 556 chamber the leade is longer, and in a 223 case the leade is shorter. The effects here are several but the important one most already know, which is don't fire AMMO loaded to 556 specs in a 223 chamber. Note i said ammo, not brass. Once the 556 ammo is fired, you can load the cases however you like.
The vast majority of reloading manuals don't even include 556 load data (some do) so if you're using good practices and following the load manual you'll be just fine.
Sort your brass by headstamp to maintain good consistency.
Remove any crimps that may be in the primer pocket. Note that a majority of commercial ammo these days also has crimps, so get used to removing them.
Clean the brass, lube, and resize. The instructions that came with your die will probably result in your significantly over sizing your brass if you follow them, so if you want to, get a gauge to measure headspace and start learning about it. If not you'll not hurt anything by following the direcetions for your die set, other than your brass won't last as long (in all likelihood).
Trim to 1.75" case length. Saami allow anything between 1.74 and 1.76 so they don't have to be perfect, but the more consistent the better.
Load an appropriate powder charge from your manual and seat a bullet. Crimp if you feel like it, but crimping for AR's is another myth. It won't hurt anything but accuracy, but it's not necessary.
If you have questions don't hesitate to ask!
Quote from: Agrivere on July 14, 2016, 11:59:09 PM
Firstly, in 5.56 military brass is NOT thicker than commercial brass. This myth persists from the days of 30 caliber brass (30-06 and 308) where it's true, however in 223/556 it's simply not true. The truth is thicker brass is thicker. Simple as that. Lake City and WCC military brass in fact tend to be thinner than most commercial brass.
I stand corrected! I was thinking of .30-06 here, since I reload both. The rest of what Agrivere says is what I was hoping you'd get out of your reloading manual, since guys typing stuff out from memory can forget ;).
Sierra's blog has some helpful stuff on overpressure signs and what to look for in your cases. https://sierrabullets.wordpress.com/2015/08/12/reloading-101-case-diagnostics/ (https://sierrabullets.wordpress.com/2015/08/12/reloading-101-case-diagnostics/)
the feedback given was taken w/ open mind and i'm thankful for the info. i haven't BOUGHT ammo for probably 4 years now. reloaded thousands of rounds. It's never been an issue because i'm only reloading for a rifle which is rated for 5.56... but that might change. i wanted to know where to look, but also what i'm looking for. a man, looking for water can look to the ocean unless he wants to drink.
i have 3 reloading manuals, one of them DOES include a section for (7.62NATO and 5.56NATO) .. come to think of it.. i think that one might even have another section for .223 military. I reload and shoot light to mild loads at best. I also check the powder manufacture's online, and looking at another book just to double check.
I'm safe at following the instructions, but wanted to know WHY the instructions are there.... if that makes sense.
Agrivere is right on. If you want or need more official proof, go to www.saami.org. Find the section titled "Technical Data Sheet; Unsafe Firearm-Ammunition Combinations and look the 5.56x45 NATO fired on a .223 REM. It states: do not use.
As stated in the previous post; it is perfectly safe to handload 5.56 brass to be fired in a .223 rifle, just use the reloading manual data.
aj
..:..
Agrivere,
Why is the leade longer in a 556 chamber? What is the purpose??
Great question I had to ask a friend on one of the military shooting teams for an answer. He has always been told the longer leade is due to the numerous different projectiles the military may use, and to increase reliability in conditions where dirt or fouling may come into play. Can't guarantee that answer is the end of the story, but it's the best I've got! Maybe others here know if this is correct?
Wouldn't the longer leade avoid overpressure problems with the hotter 5.56 NATO loads? My understanding is that the closer the bullet is to the lands, the more pressure builds up in the case itself (and therefore in the chamber, as well).
The longer leade reduces the pressure spike for reasons of fowling (dirty chamber), temperature extremes, variations in bullet mass, and operating below sea level in air. It also lets water get out, quicker, if the rifle gets submerged in water, and then needs to be used quickly. Lots of reasons.
Don't use 556 load cartridges in 223 chambers. Many do, but it is definitely not safe, or allowed by SAAMI standards.
-- gb
Quote from: maxwell on July 16, 2016, 02:09:03 AM
Wouldn't the longer leade avoid overpressure problems with the hotter 5.56 NATO loads? My understanding is that the closer the bullet is to the lands, the more pressure builds up in the case itself (and therefore in the chamber, as well).
That's absolutely true, however if you think about it the military can load their ammo any way they want, so if there was a reason to have a shorter leade they could load their ammo to match that chamber. The longer leade is intended to improve reliable function across many different conditions, projectiles, etc. and the hotter ammo is a side effect of that.
For those of us with inquiring minds, The Gun Digest 2013 edition has a complete background history of the M16 including the history of why the .223Rem wasn't adopted. Good reading.
aj
Lots of great info... Thx guys!
Quote from: Agrivere on July 15, 2016, 11:43:49 PM
He has always been told the longer leade is due to the numerous different projectiles the military may use
A friend who works in weapons development for the Army confirmed this. He says the longer leade is
QuoteTo support a longer projectile that can stick out further than a 55gr so it doesn't take up case volume. Or else the projectile sticks too far into the case and it robs the case of volume. The 5.56 gives it room to stick out a little more without hitting the rifling. It's a few thousands but it helps for 62gr and 77gr bullets.
Quote
"To support a longer projectile that can stick out further than a 55gr so it doesn't take up case volume. Or else the projectile sticks too far into the case and it robs the case of volume. The 5.56 gives it room to stick out a little more without hitting the rifling. It's a few thousands but it helps for 62gr and 77gr bullets."
For the 223/5.56, overall length will be governed by the fact that it must fit and feed from a spec magazine. No matter what, a heavier bullet is going to intrude deeper into the case. A bolt gun/sporter may offer a little more leeway.
Quote from: KodyJaret on July 18, 2016, 06:19:28 AM
For the 223/5.56, overall length will be governed by the fact that it must fit and feed from a spec magazine. No matter what, a heavier bullet is going to intrude deeper into the case. A bolt gun/sporter may offer a little more leeway.
Not if you are single loading your rounds. My 600 yard loads are VERY long. They also shoot pretty well.