We refrain from discussing modern day politics and let attendees connect the dots for themselves, but maybe it's time to bridge the gap and start combating some of the misinformation that is out there - like what is and what is not an assault weapon and other propaganda favored by the gun grabbers.
We have an audience at many Appleseeds that may or may not respond well to discussions of modern day politics, but pretty soon, we might not be having many more Appleseeds. Different ideas are being floated in the current administration from the classification of ARs to NFA status (like silencers and legally transferable machine guns) to executive orders or even regular legislation where the GOP might crumble like a house of cards and allow the Dems to pass legislation that won't have a sunset provision and will make the last AWB look like a walk in the park.
I know some people out there think that what we need is to hit rock bottom and rebuild from there, but I don't think those people are truly prepared for what rock bottom means. Also, can you name me one country that has hit rock bottom and successfully rebuilt itself - I can't think of any.
I originally posted this over at Rimfirecentral out of respect for the usual status quo here concerning staying within the frame work of the Revolutionary War, but since they explicitly prohibit political discussion I figured I would risk it and post here as well. It just might be time to be a little less subtle about the current state of affairs and a little more vocal about the rights that are currently being considered for the scrap heap. Maybe it's time to take the organizational power of the Appleseed group and start protesting in mass. I don't think we've been silent, but I am also starting to believe that we haven't been loud enough either.
Mattra, I hear what you are saying and I too have thought that we don't seem to be bridging that gap between the Revolutionary past with todays problems. However, I can't help but believe that future Appleseed attendees will be coming to an Appleseed because they now "GET IT". All of the things in the media now are IMO going to bolster our program and we should go quietly and diligently about our business. After all, if the gun control lobbiest get their way, Appleseed would be a thing of the past unless we were to modify it for bolt fed only. As Appleseeders, we have been trying to wake up Americans but now they are going to be shaken to their core beliefs by this administration. Hold on to your hat! Yours in liberty, Two Wolves
We just might need to start reaching out and sharing the message beyond the firing line. If we continue to only spread the word to attendees, the rest of the world will continue to go on. One thing the hard left gun grabbers are very good at are organizing and spreading their message. Maybe we should take a play out of their book and start actively demonstrating so their message is not the only one that is heard.
We're a non-profit and therefore barred from talking politics. Pretty simple.
And if you haven't noticed.... once you've 'seeded 'em, they get it.
I agree with Slim. Besides, I wouldn't want to even give the appearance of crossing that line between history/civic involvement and modern politics. We don't need to overstate the fact that arms confiscation was the issue that brought the Revolution to a flash point from the summer of '74 to April 19, '75, lest it seem that we are drawing too obviously a parallel that could be misinterpreted.
The mohawk is right. 501(c)3 status prohibits it.
in other things, as a geographer, you may have to define "rock bottom". Many countries have seen some pretty rough stuff and worked their way out of it. Our definition of rock bottom may be different if we view it less globalistically.
What may be as important as any effort made in Appleseed is to convince people to start thinking longterm about their posterity. As we focus more on election cycles we seem to lose the long term focus of our forefathers. That message we can make without politics and that message should be punctuated at every event.
With recent events and the obvious spike in sales, it's time to start taking the opportunity with newly appointed Rifle owners and inviting them to an event. I already know two people who have felt the urge to purchase for fear of an upcoming AWB. It's a good segway... Now that you own one, learn how to properly fire it! This is an opportunity, lets grab and run with it.... What better way to grow the ranks...
God speed everyone and Merry Christmas...
I don't know about you, but I hear the lines at the gun counter at Walmart are pretty long due to NICS checks taking so long.... Maybe I'll have to stop by the local Wally World with my AS tee and start some conversations... :cool2:
V
Now that, my friend, is a fantastic idea O0
D-fly Keeping the Faith
Quote from: CiviSoldier on December 21, 2012, 10:49:17 PM
I don't know about you, but I hear the lines at the gun counter at Walmart are pretty long due to NICS checks taking so long.... Maybe I'll have to stop by the local Wally World with my AS tee and start some conversations... :cool2:
V
Quote from: mattra on December 21, 2012, 05:15:08 PM
Why just might need to start reaching out and sharing the message beyond the firing line.
They're called "Libraryseeds" (altho you don't need a library to do one). O0
QuoteMaybe we should...start actively demonstrating so their message is not the only one that is heard.
Or you could put your energy into something really constructive, and help grow this program. O0
I share your frustration - but the answer is "Appleseed!" (Technically, "more Appleseed!" :) )
Quote from: mattra on December 21, 2012, 04:05:55 PM
We refrain from discussing modern day politics and let attendees connect the dots for themselves, but maybe it's time to bridge the gap and start combating some of the misinformation that is out there - like what is and what is not an assault weapon and other propaganda favored by the gun grabbers.
We have an audience at many Appleseeds that may or may not respond well to discussions of modern day politics, but pretty soon, we might not be having many more Appleseeds. Different ideas are being floated in the current administration from the classification of ARs to NFA status (like silencers and legally transferable machine guns) to executive orders or even regular legislation where the GOP might crumble like a house of cards and allow the Dems to pass legislation that won't have a sunset provision and will make the last AWB look like a walk in the park.
I know some people out there think that what we need is to hit rock bottom and rebuild from there, but I don't think those people are truly prepared for what rock bottom means. Also, can you name me one country that has hit rock bottom and successfully rebuilt itself - I can't think of any.
I originally posted this over at Rimfirecentral out of respect for the usual status quo here concerning staying within the frame work of the Revolutionary War, but since they explicitly prohibit political discussion I figured I would risk it and post here as well. QuoteIt just might be time to be a little less subtle about the current state of affairs and a little more vocal about the rights that are currently being considered for the scrap heap.
Subtle,,, not me,,, But there are ways to get that message thru and still be 501c3 P.C. connection from the 18th century to now is not that hard to do to get people to see what is happening to our country, Passion for this country's survival is all it takes when you present your history,,, Don't slack on the history part of these shoots, it is more important than the rest of it, teaching shooting is easy, getting people to open their eyes and do something about it is another story,,, good post by the way,,,
Quote
Maybe it's time to take the organizational power of the Appleseed group and start protesting in mass. I don't think we've been silent, but I am also starting to believe that we haven't been loud enough either.
Our cause is just, our methods unimpeachable.
Politics is not what causes our "ship" to sink any more than it is the MSM. What ails America is Americans. We, as a people have lost our way. What we do at events has a near magic way of awakening people to the path back to the ideals and traditions of the Founders and that is the only action that can save America. Whether they take the path or not is beyond our power.
You can certainly drag a horse to water, shove his head under and tickle his ribs, but in the end, the horse must decide to drink. No man is so blind as he who refuses to see.
Stay the course. Pass the message on, just as it was passed on to you, just as it was offered to me on a miserable day in January of 2007. Applesseds changes lives and does so without anything so silly, so frivolous or fickle as "politics".
Venues, promotion, staffing. More venues affords more events. More events bring more attendees, which results in more instructors, which seek out more venues, for more events for more instructors. Raw numbers. For every 100 attendees we might get a new IIT, for every 100 new IITs, we might get a few who make red hat. For every 100 red hats, we get so many that stay the course - that work 6+ events per year, year after year. Raw numbers.
A single sentence, taken out of context, could end Appleseeds, and for what? Politics? One day chicken, next day feather. Who cares?
The value of Liberty - they need to know what it cost in the beginning and how to maintain it. Leave the lies and fluff to the MSM and politicians. If they know that Liberty, that most Celestial Article, is more important than breathing, the rest will fall into place.
Well said!!! O0
To simply tell them outright what to think is not helpful. I want them to connect the dots on their own. This country needs fewer mindless robots who simply parrot what they hear. They need to contemplate the value of their Liberty, the state of their soul, and make their own decision to act on that new knowledge.
It's not a case of winning folks to our camp or losing folks to "their camp", it's about building a better citizen, and that has to be done in one's own heart. We can only show them the way.
It's a tougher row to hoe, but the rewards are far greater because we gain citizens who can think on their own.
YHJ
+1 O0
I have traveled a long road to get where I am tdoay. Appleseeds showed me the entrance to the path, but I found my own way. Where once I saw many things as important, now I see what is most important. Through the teachings of the Founders and sage counsel from fellow Appleseeders, I have learnt the value of Liberty and the true meaning of "self government".
How can any human repay both the dead and the living for something that is beyond price? I can only hope to pay it forward, by passing the gift of this incredible knowledge forward to others and ask them to do the same. One heart, one mind at a time.
I am self governed. I have no need of a master. That, to me, is the essence of Appleseed. That is my debt and my duty - to pass this "radical" notion forward, that my posterity may live Free as the Creator surely intended.
Shooters! Circle up! O0
I don't think what we've done so far or what others have done is without merit, but it might not be enough. We pass the message on to shooters who come to events and to homeschool groups at libraryseeds - but what about the rest of populace? The left takes a page right out of Joesph Goebbels' own play book and by dominating the conversation with lies - the populace will inevitably believe them because it's the only message they hear.
Some might take great offense to this, but a question is often asked at events about how many people could you get to stand up for freedom and to answer the call. The question is asked in the context of what Paul Revere and others were able to do when they made that famous ride and sounded the alarm. Most Appleseeders think of themselves as willing to stand up and answer the call, but maybe truly answering the call involves more than promoting the program itself.
Always remember that the Brown Bess was the assault Rifle of the Day!
I wish that We could get that Point across to the Current Gun Banning Crowd!
Just as there were many "groups" (committees of safety, correspondence, Sons of Liberty, etc) back then, there are too today. All with similar missions possibly through different paths. Appleseed is a good one but not the only one. We choose which we give our time and effort, it was Appleseed for me. That doesn't mean I do "seeds" to the exculsion of other useful pursuits.
Not getting personal or pointing fingers but when was the last time one of us wrote letters to our law makers, at local, state, and federal levels? Help out at Church? Attended city council or county commission meetings where you've researched and spoke on a subject?? Developed relationships with those elected officials? Actively supported a candidate? We've had our own "powder alarms" right here in our time, who has answered the call? How does our personal Liberty resume look? Much of what we should be doing as individuals can not/should not be under the "Appleseed" banner. My personal prayer is for wisdom because if the Lord gives me strength, I'll need bail money! :)...O.L.
mattra,
looks like you got the same response here that you got over at RFC. ::)
IMHO, you should bring AS complains here first, not RFC. &)
Quote from: mattra on December 22, 2012, 09:19:19 PM
Some might take great offense to this, but a question is often asked at events about how many people could you get to stand up for freedom and to answer the call. The question is asked in the context of what Paul Revere and others were able to do when they made that famous ride and sounded the alarm. Most Appleseeders think of themselves as willing to stand up and answer the call, but maybe truly answering the call involves more than promoting the program itself.
That is the other 28 days of Appleseed, welcome aboard. It's the job of every instructor to always be ready to present the message, to any group, anywhere. The goal of speaking at an event about seventh stepping is to get as many attendees to do the same. We cannot get the whole country to an Appleseed in order to
change awaken their hearts and minds. We
can get enough so that seventh stepping begins to take hold.
The goal is not to put a rifle into every American's hands, it is to put Liberty into every American's heart.
YHJ
If we join together and speak as a group instead of individuals, it would be a lot harder to ignore. When we all go our separate ways and speak out independently - we are easily ignored.
Gonna have to agree with Fred on this one. Grow the program. I'm still amazed at how many folks never heard of Appleseed. Keep the elevator speech memorized and ready to pass along. Invite friends and strangers alike. Be wary of those that invite you to step over the line in photo ops tailor made for the gun control crowd. Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
I agree with mattra on this one. I 7th step all the time but I still feel like just appleseeding is not going to save us from being legislated out of existence in short order. After looking at the rough draft of the AWB, id have to say that 99% of the guns that show up to the firing line would be considered assault weapons.
I am the president of a student club at UF that promotes the legalization of concealed carry on university campuses and in my experiences in protesting with them, I am shocked at the amount of misinformation about gun rights and laws that has pervaded our society, primarily through the MSM and liberal anti gun agendas.
Getting more and more people out to appleseeds will assuredly open more people up to loving liberty in the long term, but that does not in anyway change the FACT that our gun rights are being assaulted right now!
Fred, As the leader of a great organization whose very existence depends on the fact that we can own and use guns, I am surprised to see that in your opinion, that doing other things other than 7th stepping to save our gun rights and the 2nd Amendment, is a waste of time and energy.
Do your best. That is all that anyone can ask of you. But I have to agree with oladcock. If things are going to change it is going to require involvement in a number of different organization. On the firearms side we have NRA, GOA, JPFO, the various state rifle associations, the various concealed carry organizations. A number of Appleseeders are involved with these and that is good.
But you can also be involved at your local range. You can work with kids (that's where the future really lies). There are many things out there that all can make a difference. Do them.
Looks like I'm the odd man out here. While I once maintained a strong presence in several orgs, as well as local and national politics, I have, for all intents and purposes, dumped them all in favor of more Appleseeding. I will admit to a loss of faith. Faith in the very concept of government and the dangerous superstition that affords it the "authority" to rule. I put down the "kool aid" about two years ago, thanks to Appleseeds and the people and heritage it brought me to.
What ails this nation has nothing to do with politics, or legislation, or our elected employees (AKA: rulers). Here's the terrible truth IMHO: If we purged Congress today, from top to bottom, and replaced every member with an Appleseeder, in a very short time, it would be right back to where it is today - right now - totally corrupt and drunk on its own power and importance. You see my esteems colleagues, we get exactly the government that we deserve.
Self reliance, frugality, self-government, publik virtue, and marksmanship - these are the foundation upon which Liberty must be constructed. Failure to embrace, practice, apply and maintain these simple, but profound traditions is what brings us to where we are today and only a return to these traditions can save us. Embrace the horror folks. Accept our fate. Our government is run amuck, only because the People have done same. Most Americans want a master, need a master, and a master they will have.
What set our ancestors apart from our contemporaries, was not the system of government they devised, nor how they applied their politics. It was their love of Liberty and their burning desire to live free of the oppressive rule of tyrants. Today, most would gladly give up the most essential of Freedoms for " for a few "glass beads". We are become sheep. We beg for tyranny. in our hearts, in our minds and in our actions.
Only when a preponderance of Americans realize that death is superior to life in a cage, can we as a people, ever hope to remain free. Voting has lost its charm for me, as I know in my heart, it makes so little difference. I no longer admonish students to call their Congressmen at events, because it would be utterly disingenuous. Instead, I ask them, near beg them to spread the word of Appleseeds and to get others to attend, so that they can be exposed to the "virus" of Liberty through the story of April 19th, 1775, and to the self reliance that only skill at marksmanship can offer.
For me, Appleseeds is the best medicine for what ails us, for no man, woman, child, or beast can be expected to cherish and protect what it does not value.
In Liberty,
PHenry
You ain't alone Phenry. The problem will be solved only when Liberty runs deep in the hearts and minds of the American citizen once again. It is a difficult concept for many to grasp due to it's simplicity.
YHJ
I agree, the men that fought against the British were enough of a common mind set to bring about the formation of this nation. Currently we live in a nation that has a large percentage of mind set intent to dissolve all of that. I do not know what will come of this current set of affairs, but my hope for a bright future is increasing because I have seen that all happens for a reason. Iron is tempered in a fire, but when you are in the fire you don't seem to remember why you are there, to become stronger. Endeavor to objectively look at what is happening, and not react until it is proper. Silent observation has a power of it's own.
Sometimes you can silently observe for too long - ask the Jews that were living in Germany during the 30s and 40s (if you can find any that escaped and who are still alive).
PHenry, I mostly agree with you and I share your cynicism - however, if we all just sit back and do nothing and don't participate in the current political process (acknowledging that much of it is a farce), what good is that? The left would love it if we sat home on election days and didn't vote. They would love it, and are loving it, that we aren't protesting at all. The way I see it, we have a three options - do nothing, engage in the political process, (your imaginations can fill in this). For me, the only option is to engage in the political process in hopes that it works, or at least some what works.
Quote from: PHenry on December 31, 2012, 02:34:34 PM
Voting has lost its charm for me, as I know in my heart, it makes so little difference.
I don't vote because I think it will make a difference, I vote to honor those who died for my right to vote.
The advantage of this approach is that I get to vote strategically, to vote my hopes instead of my fears.
I don't think you're the odd man out, lots of folks have lost their faith, but it's one's actions that count most.
Frankly, "dumping them all in favor of more Appleseeding" doesn't quite sound like a loss of faith to me.
Rather, it sounds more like a show of faith in "Self reliance, frugality, self-government, publik virtue, and
marksmanship" which are indeed "the foundations upon which Liberty must be [re-]constructed".
(A true loss of faith can be easily identified by the deepening indentations in one's couch cushions.)
The makeup of population, and the character of U.S. citizens is radically different now than 60 years ago. Even more different than 240 years ago.
Look at the character of folks who endured the Depression. How work programs had to be put into place - because such a large segment of the population wouldn't take something without working for it. In the face of extreme poverty, crime news was still mostly dominated by thugs in big cities, fighting amongst themselves. Citizens didn't do drive-bys, and fatherless armies didn't control miles of territory in "neighborhoods" that look more like war zones.
Unsure what the ultimate outcome of this country will be, but I can guarantee it's not going to resemble what the Founders had envisioned. We are not the same people we once were.
I am of the opinion human nature does not change over time,evidence of this theory are the writings of Socrates,Plato ,Aristotle . The same human faults and wonderful characteristics are outlined in nearly all great philosophers and writers regardless of what century .Recently the great Taylor Caldwell wrote of the rich men of earth in her many historical novels.
The representatives of royal blood and financial dynasties (so called mainstream ) have cleverly and without conscience led many to reject modern heroes ,again nothing new !
Recall 5000 years ago wealthy men hired clowns and mimes to ridicule the great Greek ruler Pericles ! Of course it worked and Pericles was ruined!
For those who believe elections are not important we need to only look back to the election of 1912 where JP Morgan and company partially financed the bull moose party to elect fed reserve advocate Wilson over Taft who opposed the banking act .
Further evidence of the importance of elections can be found in individual state govts . Compare the idea of self protection in Alaska,Wyoming,Vermont and Arizona ,Wisconsin etc etc against New York ,Illinois or Los Angeles .
What are the odds that wealthy cabals or individuals are promoting current bull moose parties to elect the most anti freedom individuals ?
I am a single issue voter and always vote NRA GOA recommendations . Those who fought the Kings Army never had that option .
Quote from: douglas34474 on December 23, 2012, 10:33:17 PM
mattra,
looks like you got the same response here that you got over at RFC. ::)
IMHO, you should bring AS complains here first, not RFC. &)
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478638
Now I know what you're talking about.
Agree with Fred AND Douglas. Definitely violates the 200 year rule on politics.
-NH
NHale good points and I agree Appleseed is not the venue for partisan politics ! Besides for the 1st time in recent history an avid ,outspoken anti gunner got elected to national office w/o using the effective 3rd party trick .
I would humbly suggest those who want to do partisan politics on other forums use a name other than the Appleseed name .
As Fred told me " If we get the reputation as a gun rights ,right wing organization ,those who need the message the most will not attend"
.
The problem is, we aren't living 200 years in the past. Usually I understand the reason for the rule, but with the current events and the 2nd Amendment under unprecedented attack - to keep with that rule and to avoid being seen as a gun rights group just to not offend some people is ridiculous. What if the founding fathers were so concerned with offending King George - would we have gained our freedom or would we have remained subjects?
I don't think Fred is concerned about offending the King. He doesn't want to offend the town folk who need to have the concept of liberty rekindled in their hearts.
ShadowMan
Quote from: mattra on January 02, 2013, 01:08:27 PM
The problem is, we aren't living 200 years in the past. Usually I understand the reason for the rule, but with the current events and the 2nd Amendment under unprecedented attack - to keep with that rule and to avoid being seen as a gun rights group just to not offend some people is ridiculous. What if the founding fathers were so concerned with offending King George - would we have gained our freedom or would we have remained subjects?
mattra,
The problem is you have failed to hear the words of the previous posts.
Appleseed is not about organized advocacy except as it pertains to making the public aware of what the Founders have left for them.
Most of us are very actively involved in the political struggle which rages today, but not here. Here our job is to wake up our fellow Americans and to get them involved. We don't advocate for or tell them where to go once they are awakened, that is a matter for thier own conscience.
Your passion while admirable should be focused while here on advancing the Appleseed Mission. It is better to avoid the ice bergs which are all about us and concentrate on steering the ship safely to our destination.
Tunnel vision has its place, this might be one of those.
Quote from: slim on December 21, 2012, 06:02:05 PM
We're a non-profit and therefore barred from talking politics. Pretty simple.
Just a clarification, non-profit status simply means you cannot officially endorse or substantially aid a particular candidate.
It does
not bar you from 'talking politics'.
Quote from: mattra on January 02, 2013, 01:08:27 PM
but with the current events and the 2nd Amendment under unprecedented attack
ShadowMan and GEmanuel are quite correct; I'd like to add just one more thing: the current attacks are not quite so unprecedented as they might appear to modern eyes. From an historical perspective, if you manage to look past the former veneer of civility, the attacks of the past were often just as bold. Our rights have always been under attack, and the Constitution and Bill of Rights have been attacked non-stop since the day they were written. Current events, offensive as they may be, are merely the latest salvo in a non-stop fight. Although the founding fathers did not worry overly much about offending King George as they fought for our freedom, they were usually careful to speak in a civil manner, if only to retain the moral high ground in their fight for freedom.
QuoteThe way I see it, we have a three options - do nothing, engage in the political process, (your imaginations can fill in this). For me, the only option is to engage in the political process in hopes that it works, or at least some what works.
We do have three options and they were laid bare for me by FunFaler at the first event I worked as an instructor. The crowd was, shall we say, of the very self-reliant persuasion. FF knew he needed to reach them on a level they would accept. He offered the following (to the best of my recollection).
A) We do nothing - our current course
B) We fight - totally unrealistic and more horrible than all but a few could imagine
C) We work within the system handed down by the Founders as they intended
Option C is the only viable option. The reason it is failing is because we, as a people, have lost our will to live in Liberty owing to the great effort required. Washington spelled it out with great clarity in his inaugural address. In order for a people to remain free, they must be virtuous. In order for the "sacred lamp of Liberty" to remain lit, the government must be inhabited by humans of solid character and virtue.
"I dwell on this prospect with every satisfaction which an ardent love for my Country can inspire: since there is no truth more thoroughly established, than that there exists in the economy and course of nature, an indissoluble union between virtue and happiness, between duty and advantage, between the genuine maxims of an honest and magnanimous policy, and the solid rewards of public prosperity and felicity: Since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven, can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained: And since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty, and the destiny of the Republican model of Government, are justly considered as deeply, perhaps as finally staked, on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people."
Trouble is, if the people are of failing character, they will elect people of failing character. The great experiment has failed, because we as a people have failed. Only if we can teach enough Americans the importance of virtue and strong character can we hope to avoid slavery of the very worst sort - the kind that is bought and paid for by the slaves themselves. The qualities required to make Rifleman are very much the same as thems required for a people to remain Free. The Story teaches them the rest.
Well, enough of my silly ranting. Time to bottom line it. Hopefully I have been around long enough to be qualified to offer the following statement:
If you wish to espouse any form or persuasion of modern politics, as a sovereign American citizen, you are of course welcome to do so, but not here, not at events, and not in any way that could possibly be construed to associate with or reflect upon Project Appleseeds. It's not what we do, and if it were to become what we do, it would happen without me, because I would seek a new outlet for discharging my duties to the Founders and to my own posterity. This matter has long ago been debated and decided upon. If I am in error in the previous assessment, I ask that Fred chime in to correct me.
May God bless and keep every Appleseeder.
I will be speaking at a prepper's convention this month and any suggestions on how to avoid modern politics whilst holding the interest of the crowd long enough to succeed in peaking their interest into attending an event would be most welcome via PM. :bow:
In Liberty,
PHenry
Quote from: PHenry on January 02, 2013, 05:24:00 PM
QuoteI will be speaking at a prepper's convention this month and any suggestions on how to avoid modern politics whilst holding the interest of the crowd long enough to succeed in peaking their interest into attending an event would be most welcome via PM. :bow:
PHenry, why not tell them about Paul Revere the 'Prepper' after all he was cetainly one of the best of his era. Perhaps without telling the story or giving it away prematurely, you could explain how he was prepping to begin a Nation and we are today in a continual state of 'prepping' (or perhaps readiness (symantics)) in order to preserve it.
There is much material surrounding the story to base an interesting presentation on. I think you will find this group most receptive to what we have to say, and offer.
Good luck!
Quote from: mattra on January 02, 2013, 01:08:27 PM
The problem is, we aren't living 200 years in the past. Usually I understand the reason for the rule, but with the current events and the 2nd Amendment under unprecedented attack - to keep with that rule and to avoid being seen as a gun rights group just to not offend some people is ridiculous. What if the founding fathers were so concerned with offending King George - would we have gained our freedom or would we have remained subjects?
This is not a single issue fight, we are not trying to change a topic on Capitol Hill, we are trying to change the hearts and minds of the population.
If all the politicians stopped monkeying with gun laws would you go back to sleep?
Here is a story for you, one that woke up a friend of mine. Back in the eighties there were some problems with folks buying certain ATVs and promptly killing/maiming themselves on them. A cry went out for regulation, if folks would not read the owners manual and follow common sense rules the product should be banned the cry said. This began to spill over into other things, things this friend thought important, like fast cars.
He showed me an article in some car mag, Car and Driver, Road and Track, I don't remember. The article was an editorial telling the readership to go and purchase a membership in the NRA, even if they did not own a gun. The reason? Because the NRA was the only group fighting to protect the rights of the people (notice he did not say right to own guns). Every one who wanted to live in a country without legislation on horsepower limits, or number of wheels on ATVs, needed to support the NRA because if they lost their battle it would only be a matter of time before restrictor plates under carbs and cut offs on speedometers. He encouraged folks to get involved in legislation, to participate in local government. The writer GOT IT.
Thirty years later we live in a country where you can have pot in your pocket on one coast, but not purchase a 32 oz fountain drink on the other coast. If it's not guns it's something else. How fast your car can go, what your paint smells like, how many calories you eat, what you say and think.
This is bigger than gun rights, this is bigger than soda pop. This is about getting people to take back control of their own destinies and to take their place in the role of a government of the people. I don't want people to get involved because they are focused on a single issue, I want CSPAN to be the most popular channel on TV because Americans care about every piece legislation.
Don't pigeon hole Appleseed into becoming yet one more 2nd Amendment group. Our sights are set farther down range.
YHJ
Very well said YHJ!
And I will add my 'amen' to Edheler's. :bow:
Quote from: yellowhousejake on January 02, 2013, 06:02:30 PM
Quote from: mattra on January 02, 2013, 01:08:27 PM
The problem is, we aren't living 200 years in the past. Usually I understand the reason for the rule, but with the current events and the 2nd Amendment under unprecedented attack - to keep with that rule and to avoid being seen as a gun rights group just to not offend some people is ridiculous. What if the founding fathers were so concerned with offending King George - would we have gained our freedom or would we have remained subjects?
This is not a single issue fight, we are not trying to change a topic on Capitol Hill, we are trying to change the hearts and minds of the population.
If all the politicians stopped monkeying with gun laws would you go back to sleep?
Here is a story for you, one that woke up a friend of mine. Back in the eighties there were some problems with folks buying certain ATVs and promptly killing/maiming themselves on them. A cry went out for regulation, if folks would not read the owners manual and follow common sense rules the product should be banned the cry said. This began to spill over into other things, things this friend thought important, like fast cars.
He showed me an article in some car mag, Car and Driver, Road and Track, I don't remember. The article was an editorial telling the readership to go and purchase a membership in the NRA, even if they did not own a gun. The reason? Because the NRA was the only group fighting to protect the rights of the people (notice he did not say right to own guns). Every one who wanted to live in a country without legislation on horsepower limits, or number of wheels on ATVs, needed to support the NRA because if they lost their battle it would only be a matter of time before restrictor plates under carbs and cut offs on speedometers. He encouraged folks to get involved in legislation, to participate in local government. The writer GOT IT.
Thirty years later we live in a country where you can have pot in your pocket on one coast, but not purchase a 32 oz fountain drink on the other coast. If it's not guns it's something else. How fast your car can go, what your paint smells like, how many calories you eat, what you say and think.
This is bigger than gun rights, this is bigger than soda pop. This is about getting people to take back control of their own destinies and to take their place in the role of a government of the people. I don't want people to get involved because they are focused on a single issue, I want CSPAN to be the most popular channel on TV because Americans care about every piece legislation.
Don't pigeon hole Appleseed into becoming yet one more 2nd Amendment group. Our sights are set farther down range.
YHJ
..oh yes, it is much bigger than guns, but I still love guns and all they stand for... Liberty.....good post yellowhousejake..
PHenry and yellowhousejake pretty much nailed it for me. I can only add this. Dont ever change the message of Appleseed. If anything, IIT's and Instructors work on your passion for the history you are presenting.
I belong to a militia and had just purchased a almost brand new "big boy rifle" when I decided to attend an Appleseed to improve my shooting (which I discovered to my dismay was abysmal). Although I consider myself a student of history, I was impressed with the way it was presented by the Instructors and IIT's. They made me feel the passion that Revere, Parker, Davis and the others had for the cause of liberty. Since then, having attended several more 'Seeds, my rifle handling had improved but my desire to get others aware of and to an AS has grown more. As one of the "Hats" said "politics is like the weather, you cant change it. We want to change the "climate" by getting people off the couch. " (or words to that effect)
Remember, a great man once said " With Liberty comes great responsabilty"
Just my 2 cents worth.
I fully agree with the goal of growing appleseed and teaching about our roots in gaining our liberty. It would be more effective to spread this message if more people knew you existed. I heard a short, and unrepeated, ad on a local morning radio show a few days before the February course was to start. If I had not been a member of the range the ad said was the venue I would never have followed up for more information or signed up for the course. I mentioned the Appleseed program in the local gun shops while searching for ammunition (at least 8 stores) and while some had heard of you none were aware there was a course about to start or where it might be held. Some gun store staff had never heard of you and there was no pamphlet or flyer in any of the stores. One gun shop owner, who is a prominent member of my range, had no idea the event was taking place. This is not LA, St. Louis or NY City but a small Florida panhandle city. Why is it you are iinvisible to the local gun community here? How are we going to sign up new gun owners, as it has been suggested in these posts, if none of them are told of Appleseed by the local gun shops and only learn of it by accident or from a knowing few. Since signing up for the event I have asked gun owners and many others who shoot occasionally if they know about Appleseed. All of them have answered in the negative. Why is promotion so difficult in such a small city?
There is a gun rally in a local park this Saturday to protest and demand our local politicians stand up for our second ammendment constitutional rights . What an opportunity to tell other gun owners new and old there is an opportunity for rifle marksmanship training while learning of our founders and their efforts in starting our nation. I know I will be spreading the word. Who else will?
Quote from: Kalamity Kate on February 20, 2013, 09:14:43 PM
How are we going to sign up new gun owners, as it has been suggested in these posts, if none of them are told of Appleseed by the local gun shops and only learn of it by accident or from a knowing few.
Thank you for spreading the word! The answer to your question is that we are an all-volunteer effort, so it is precisely the type of word-of-mouth your post describes that is our most effective method of outreach.
Kalamity, consider yourself deputized! Thanks for helping us to spread the word!
OK My turn,
first you all need to put your faith back where it rightfully belongs in the Lord and not in earthly things, events or programs!
You also need to ask yourself if you want to bring this program under another type of attack; Appleseed is Appleseed!
There are many ways to skin a cat and it is not all Appleseed all the time, but it is something all the time!
PHenry, you sir need to re-evaluate some of the things you neglect now, by you changing I believe you are submitting; this is not how you groomed me for this program. I too feel as though the voting process is now merely a popularity contest, but remember what we preach, it was provided to us in blood and therefore needs to be utilized as though our lives depend on it! Also remember the words of your namesake: "I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience."
To you other two, have you done your all? And not just in this program but in all areas possible? Appleseed is but one stone tossed into one pond. We need to throw as many stones as we can carry into all bodies of water we come to, and not expect a tidal wave that we can see. We are on God's time. Remember it looked a lot more ominous for a far greater period of time.
Gentleman, I love you all and I mean that you are my Brothers in Liberty. Go forth and be fruitful. God bless and help us all, I think it will get much worse before any better. We need to do everything and at the same time know when to take off our AS hats and do other things so as to protect this, the most powerful thing we have in our lives right now, and that is definitely this program! Put yourself out there and get involved in other things but do not jeopardize this program for a swift victory at a protest or something that might better be served by some other organization where the venue is more conducive! Oh yeah! BTW, we three have been talking diversity all day! So Diversify in the spirit of AS but not using AS. Do you get me? With love and not malice Sly
P.S. I am tough but I am fair!