I got the latest newsletter today and while filling out the comments section of the new survey I decided to put into words what I've been thinking for a good while:
Appleseed is not a competition, but there ought to be ways of challenging shooter's past their Rifleman patch. Perhaps special pips or sub-patches for centerfire, bolt action, musket, actual distance etc?
A lot of people see Appleseed as a "stepping stone" to NRA or CMP competition shooting, but I see them as very different in their approach. If there were a more competitive aspect to it or ways to continue improving or getting recognized past the Rifleman patch, people might stay involved longer. NRA/CMP is very gear-centric and not really practical (though some of the John C Garand matches can be). Appleseed focuses on using as-issued firearms with standard ammunition without specialized non-practical shooting gear like shooting gloves, diopter glasses, fancy shooting hats, etc. I would like to be involved in a competitive shooting sport that emphasizes shooting with as-issued rack grade service rifles (or .22lr versions thereof) with iron sights only, milsurp or non-match grade commodity commercial ammo, no specialized shooting gear such as shooting jackets, hats, gloves diopters, etc (ideally with shooters wearing BDUs or street clothes only); and shooting at actual distance or reduced distance targets similar to AQT targets from the various field positions (prone, sitting/kneeling, standing). Such a beast doesn't really exist in the NRA/CMP competitive shooting world... perhaps something like it can grow out of the Appleseed Project to keep people interested and improving in practical riflemanship?
I certainly like any idea which increases our "contact time" with anyone. And I love competition!
That said, I fear that creating new levels / achievements for shooters to strive for may keep them on the Line longer and delay them from taking a Hat and getting to the real work. Maybe the additional levels could be for instructors only as an incentive for us to keep our skills sharp. When I SB an event, I encourage instructors to shoot if time / space / conditions permit.
Quote from: perdurabo on November 13, 2012, 06:18:37 PM
I got the latest newsletter today and while filling out the comments section of the new survey I decided to put into words what I've been thinking for a good while:
Appleseed is not a competition, but there ought to be ways of challenging shooter's past their Rifleman patch. Perhaps special pips or sub-patches for centerfire, bolt action, musket, actual distance etc?
A lot of people see Appleseed as a "stepping stone" to NRA or CMP competition shooting, but I see them as very different in their approach. If there were a more competitive aspect to it or ways to continue improving or getting recognized past the Rifleman patch, people might stay involved longer. NRA/CMP is very gear-centric and not really practical (though some of the John C Garand matches can be). Appleseed focuses on using as-issued firearms with standard ammunition without specialized non-practical shooting gear like shooting gloves, diopter glasses, fancy shooting hats, etc. I would like to be involved in a competitive shooting sport that emphasizes shooting with as-issued rack grade service rifles (or .22lr versions thereof) with iron sights only, milsurp or non-match grade commodity commercial ammo, no specialized shooting gear such as shooting jackets, hats, gloves diopters, etc (ideally with shooters wearing BDUs or street clothes only); and shooting at actual distance or reduced distance targets similar to AQT targets from the various field positions (prone, sitting/kneeling, standing). Such a beast doesn't really exist in the NRA/CMP competitive shooting world... perhaps something like it can grow out of the Appleseed Project to keep people interested and improving in practical riflemanship?
You can certainly do the same thing in NRA High Power or JCG matches using as little or many accessories as you see fit. It will be a very rewarding personal challenge to shoot a Service Rifle or M1 Garand with few accoutrements (rifle/sling/spotting scope or not/cloth shooting jacket or not/glove or not/surplus ammo or handloads, etc.) and be competitive using your own personal spartan set up.
Git-R-Done! :---
I am partial to the minimalist style, but a bring what you got view.
That said I would love if for higher level competitions, the use the rifle of the person to your right. Or B1 ~ B5 exchange rifles and ammo with A1~A5.
another option but the legalities would make it a pain in many states.
Under $1000 KD rig, top 3 competitors must allow their rigs to be sold for $1K or less.
I really recommend a minimalist angle of some type, or it will become an arms race, like everything else.
The two ways to do that is (your rifle will probably be used by someone else or your rifle and equipment might be sold for $X so don't put more than that into it.
If we address it with Rules, we will change rules as people stretch them and that is not what we are about.
I'm not so sure trading or selling rifles would be the solution. The point is to concentrate on competing with skill and not gear, to emphasize riflemanship over gamesmanship. What you want is a competition where as close as possible (for a square range) you emulate what happens "when the balloon goes up" and you have to grab a rifle and use it in a "social situation" RIGHT NOW. In such a situation, you aren't going to put on a shooting jacket, shooting glove, diopters for your glasses, a fancy hat with shades, or have a spotting scope. I'd allow a shooting mat just for safety's sake and its not really all that impractical an item. Its POSSIBLE for your rifle to have a shiny heavy match stainless barrel, but its not LIKELY so I would submit all rifles to examination before competition and limit all rifles to more or less rack grade and allow all reasonably practical upgrades like NM sights, NM triggers, etc but shiny stainless barrels would probably be a no no. You could level the field by issuing ammo, but that presupposes everyone would have the same ammo, which isnt something you can count on (plus once again: insurance/liability issues), and its conceivable you'd want to use your handloads or match ammo in a "social situation", so there might be some leeway there.
What about a one day course, in a number of locations nationwide, with minimal instruction inviting only previous Appleseed attendees. We shoot AQT's all day, and after coordination of scores between the locations, have an awards ceremony something ala CMP with gold, silver and bronze qualifications (special rectangular patches to fit under a rifleman patch like "Gold April 2013"?) and an announcement of the top 10 scores nationwide. All this for the low price of $100 per attendee regardless of age, gender or other status. People who want to compete get their competition and the RWVA gets to raise some money to help the program.
I like the idea, generally.
my eyes are crap beyond 300 yards, so I use a 3 or 4 power scope just to see the targets. once I can see them, I have no trouble hitting them.
I like the idea of RM patch rockers, it's been discussed elsewhere on the forum.
categories: bolt, lever, pump, straight-pull,semi, rimfire, centerfire, "heavy metal"= 30 cal and up, 25M, Known distance, 600, 800, 1000 meter? also maybe add scope and iron sights, perhaps adapt the times on an AQT for those who want to go really old-school and try black powder
i've seen patches that read "Full Distance", those always seem to generate considerable interest amongst shooters on the line.
Koscisuko
The goal of Appleseed is a to grow a saved country. In the early days Fred said more about joining gun clubs as a fun social activity. They are still there and you can still do that. Your club doesn't have what you suggest? Bring more people to Appleseed, get them shooting, and then subvert the club and take it over. Start your own club. Post a perspective match and host it, see if you can get folks there.
of course if you really want to see what the next step of Appleseed is, grab a hat and lets get going.
The climate of Shooting Sports is changing in my area because Appleseeders are changing it. Interestingly enough, it wasn't that hard for us.
A few notes from the guy who put that question on the survey.
First, if you're not sure what we're talking about, there's a 'shooter survey' that's linked to the AS National Newsletter that just went out on e-mail yesterday. If you didn't get it, you can read a Forumized version here (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?board=467.0). There are also instructions on how to sign up so you get the next one (Jan-Feb, 2013) e-mailed to you.
Most of that survey is feedback on our marksmanship and heritage program, but there's a "what else should we do?" question at the end, with some widely varying ideas on a list, plus a 'fill in your own' slot. Some of those ideas are more thought out than others, and all of them constitute 'spitballing', that is, tossing things at the wall to see what sticks. So if you go look at that list, do not think "OMG we'll never pull that off / it's inconsistent with AS / etc.". The idea is to see if any of them get a critical mass of acclaim from the customers - then we'll worry about those questions.
To the extent there was a rationale behind putting that particular item on the list, it was mine, and here it is:
1) We've gotten input from more than one source (including smaller previous surveys) to the effect of "There should be something beyond Rifleman". Yes, we have KD and FD, but that's always going to be at a minority of ranges.
2) Saying 'competitive AQT' does not imply that AS itself has to run matches. As Huff points out, that's something any club can do, or even a bunch of guys who buy targets off the store. The 'hats' keep teaching new students at regular shoots, while those who want to up their RM scores or try different rifles, etc. would have an option at matches.
3) Having a competitive option might up demand for our training, as the best way to get into that discipline. Then we get a chance to tell the Story to the new folks, and recruit some of them to instruct.
4) One possibility would be have AS itself write the rule book and be the 'sanctioning body' for such a discipline. E.g, NRA or IPSC don't generally run shoots themselves, they write up rules so folks will know what the game is.
5) There may be a 'market hole' for a discipline close to high power, but not so expensive to shoot or loaded with 'geared up' competitors.
There's no reason not to discuss it now, but I will be posting up a summary of the survey results, probably next week when the dust has settled a bit, and we'll see what the shooters think. We've already got 275 responses, so there should be some real 'market intelligence' in there.
Yes! This is exactly what I've been looking for! I was very put off by the fact that NRA Highpower and CMP Service Rifle competition seemed more about gamesmanship than marksmanship. All the constant bickering about rules and how to "game" the rules or buy the latest gizmo to give yourself an edge rather than actually competing based 100% on marksmanship. I'd be VERY interested in helping get something like this off the ground. I understand the need and the mission of RWVA/Appleseed for getting more people out to shoot and making more instructors, but its stuff like competition that really gets people engaged and keeps them engaged. Not everyone is going to want to take up the hat, but if we can keep everyone who wants to more engaged in the shooting sports through competition, then all the better for our liberties and gun rights.
Quote from: SPQR on November 14, 2012, 01:56:41 PM
The goal of Appleseed is a to grow a saved country. In the early days Fred said more about joining gun clubs as a fun social activity. They are still there and you can still do that. Your club doesn't have what you suggest? Bring more people to Appleseed, get them shooting, and then subvert the club and take it over. Start your own club. Post a perspective match and host it, see if you can get folks there.
of course if you really want to see what the next step of Appleseed is, grab a hat and lets get going.
The climate of Shooting Sports is changing in my area because Appleseeders are changing it. Interestingly enough, it wasn't that hard for us.
.
It's great that you're changing the culture in your local area. That isn't happening everywhere. You know that not everyone is ready to make the commitment for a hat but enjoy our message enough that they might like an event like I proposed. Once someone scores rifleman but is not ready to take a hat we don't do anything that keeps them engaged and over time they forget about us. I also do not see any reason why we can't save the country and have fun at the same time.
I made my suggestion because there seems to be enough interest and we could use it to
raise money for the RWVA.
I love the competitive idea and the ranks/rockers idea too. If it were planned as more of a quarterly or semi-annual type event per region, it shouldn't interfere with the regular Appleseed training. While I look forward to joining the ranks of the orange hats someday, I got into this because I love to shoot. This would definitely be a good incentive to keep people in the program longer and also give them something to keep improving their skills. Outside of actual battle training, I don't think there's anything better than competition to teach shooting under stressful conditions. I've also been interested in competitive NRA shooting, but I don't think it should be all about gear and definitely don't think I want to wear one of those bulky (and ugly) shooting jackets in Florida. Anything meant to improve your posture seems a little like cheating to me anyway.
I think you missed what I was getting at.
So you don't want to take a hat? Whatever. But if your shooting environment isn't giving you what you want, MAKE IT. There is a bit in this thread about not "gaming" the competition. He remarked that the local hipower nuts and service rifle guys weren't into his style of shooting, okay, make a new culture. He has been to an Appleseed, can he not use Appleseed to find other folks interested in that? I have not been to an Appleseed that hasn't had the potential to build connections. He could always get those people together and make a run at building something.
The trick is, Appleseed can't give people a lot of things they may want, that isn't its goal, BUT it can be used by people to get some of the things they want. Appleseed has it hands full, for it to spend time and energy developing a competition network is probably asking too much of an organization that gets a lot from a few and not much from same. However, an individual Appleseeder using the experience they have had at Appleseed to develop a localized network of activated people and building it from there...well, that has legs. I am suggesting that, if he has a real desire for this to happen, he can marshal folks and go get it.
College sports started out as a extra curricular activity then ........
QuoteThe climate of Shooting Sports is changing in my area because Appleseeders are changing it. Interestingly enough, it wasn't that hard for us.
Can you elaborate a little. In what way are the sports changing, which sports are changing, etc.
I'm the match director for our club's 3-Gun. One of the stages always involves some longer range rifle shooting. I've incorporating AS skills into that particular stage design for the past 3-4 months by putting shooters in prone, standing, and sitting positions and/or using reduced size targets. Those with slings and know how to use them have an advantage. When I mention AS at the matches I always say something about some stages are based on AS skills. I'm hoping to generate some interest in shooters attending an AS.
Just don't want the history and teaching to become secondary to "zee who is the best" Education has become 2nd fiddle in our nation if you have a good football team (SEC)..didn't start out that way
A little friendly competiton is a good motivator. How about a few 4 minute AQT's? Some riflemen and women find that when faced with the necessity of shooting with a cadence while knowing the clock is counting down, will actually shoot higher scores more often. I did.
Quote from: Edheler on November 14, 2012, 03:35:21 PM
I made my suggestion because there seems to be enough interest and we could use it to raise money for the RWVA.
Project Appleseed's core competencies are Fundamental Marksmanship and History.
The request that we put on competitions seems to meet the need of those who want recognition for shooting well. Skip the middleman and just shoot well. I went to the National Matches (2012 Western Games) and shot without a glove, shooting jacket or specialized rifle (for a couple of competitions). I did it because I just wanted to shoot. I shoot NRA Mid-Range with my Garand vs uber-service rifles. I have fun, get dope and learn from others around me. I don't do it because I want a medal.
Rather than creating competitions (which are not in our skill set) other instructors had talked about pushing RBCs or specialty classes like:
"Get to know your M1" - M1 Secrets and KD shooting
"All about ARs" - History of your AR + KD and load development
etc.
These specialty classes accomplish several things. It advances our core skills. It would increase our offerings. It would create more challenges for students. It would also generate money for the RWVA. It would not however give you a gold star for shooting better...knowledge and experience are the rewards.
-Peter
I know a guy who wanted a little more competition at Appleseeds. Instead of trying to redirect the focus of our program (teach everyone in America the story and how to hit man-sized targets with rack grade rifles and surplus ball ammo) he challenged himself.
He started shooting lefty.
Once he mastered that he switched platforms. Dude can shoot 210+ with just about any rifle out there. He makes it look easy. From both sides of the plate.
While honing that skill, he was still active in the ultimate competition - Instructing more people.
Once we've attained the patch it's easy for us to lose focus of what we're really out here to do. All the "special shooting skills" out there really aren't what Appleseed is about. Getting another patch or another title just doesn't do anything to save America. Getting folks on the line is what does. Teaching people the story.... that's what it's all about. Appleseed my be a gateway to other shooting sports, but it's not really about the shooting.
Think of it this way. Would you rather shoot .75 inch groups or have 75 friends, family and neighbors that can shoot 4 MOA groups? "Well, slim, I wanna do both." And that's awesome. So do I. And the beauty of Appleseed is you can do both simultaneously. But you can't do one without the other. Sure, you can take the time to develop your skills and be a sub-MOA shooter. But making sure 75 more people get involved... that's a skill!
I concur with Mr Pete's direction. All good organizational strategies and "product roadmaps" drive innovation and product extensions from core set of competencies and principles. AS is about fundamental marksmanship and history. The marksmanship is aligned at 25 M to build the skills to shoot to 400, 500 and beyond with rack grade rifles. Thus our product extensions should cater to that...show people the inner workings of those rack grade rifles and show them exactly how to make good hits as a Rifleman's quarter mile.
Creating new competitive sport...while exciting and with many appeals and advantages (like getting people to come back time after time)...is a big drain and loss of focus from the core strategy. In addition, there are MANY shooting sports out there already...we would be just so much noise unless we put complete focus and effort into it (draining away focus from the core product line). Example -- Ruger is sponsoring the Ruger Rimfire Challenge, putting big bucks and effort into it. In the shooting sports, it is nothing more than a pimple on a...well, you know what.
That said, the idea of SPONSORING (not commercially) teams to go to CMP (and other) shoots and show em how its done...with the Appleseed banners proudly waving, is an excellent promotional opportunity and would help fill those long range lines.
Kris
Quote from: Mr Pete on November 17, 2012, 06:56:53 PM
Quote from: Edheler on November 14, 2012, 03:35:21 PM
I made my suggestion because there seems to be enough interest and we could use it to raise money for the RWVA.
Project Appleseed's core competencies are Fundamental Marksmanship and History.
The request that we put on competitions seems to meet the need of those who want recognition for shooting well. Skip the middleman and just shoot well. I went to the National Matches (2012 Western Games) and shot without a glove, shooting jacket or specialized rifle (for a couple of competitions). I did it because I just wanted to shoot. I shoot NRA Mid-Range with my Garand vs uber-service rifles. I have fun, get dope and learn from others around me. I don't do it because I want a medal.
Rather than creating competitions (which are not in our skill set) other instructors had talked about pushing RBCs or specialty classes like:
"Get to know your M1" - M1 Secrets and KD shooting
"All about ARs" - History of your AR + KD and load development
etc.
These specialty classes accomplish several things. It advances our core skills. It would increase our offerings. It would create more challenges for students. It would also generate money for the RWVA. It would not however give you a gold star for shooting better...knowledge and experience are the rewards.
-Peter
Quote from: slim on November 18, 2012, 12:02:20 PM
I know a guy who wanted a little more competition at Appleseeds. Instead of trying to redirect the focus of our program (teach everyone in America the story and how to hit man-sized targets with rack grade rifles and surplus ball ammo) he challenged himself.
He started shooting lefty.
Once he mastered that he switched platforms. Dude can shoot 210+ with just about any rifle out there. He makes it look easy. From both sides of the plate.
While honing that skill, he was still active in the ultimate competition - Instructing more people.
Once we've attained the patch it's easy for us to lose focus of what we're really out here to do. All the "special shooting skills" out there really aren't what Appleseed is about. Getting another patch or another title just doesn't do anything to save America. Getting folks on the line is what does. Teaching people the story.... that's what it's all about. Appleseed my be a gateway to other shooting sports, but it's not really about the shooting.
Think of it this way. Would you rather shoot .75 inch groups or have 75 friends, family and neighbors that can shoot 4 MOA groups? "Well, slim, I wanna do both." And that's awesome. So do I. And the beauty of Appleseed is you can do both simultaneously. But you can't do one without the other. Sure, you can take the time to develop your skills and be a sub-MOA shooter. But making sure 75 more people get involved... that's a skill!
Thanks, Slim.
I needed to hear that, brother.
Quote from: SteelThunder on November 18, 2012, 01:51:22 PM
That said, the idea of SPONSORING (not commercially) teams to go to CMP (and other) shoots and show em how its done...with the Appleseed banners proudly waving, is an excellent promotional opportunity and would help fill those long range lines.
Kris
Sounds like a great idea, man!
I don't know the answer, (although I really like steelthunder's response), but I do know the question is quite valid.