I recently purchased 5 x cans of 200 each Pakistani M80 after sniffing out enough indications via Google search from folks who'd purchased and shot ammo from this lot that seemed to have a positive experience. Widner's has been selling it for $72/200 rounds plus shipping and it's been in and out of stock for a few months but more consistently available than most other surplus 7.62x51.
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100000215
There's a lot of FUD/misinformation from folks who have their own perspective on ammo from certain countries but very few seem to have any real experience with ammunition from this lot. Looking for more than "it goes bang but is kind of dirty" or "worked fine in my FAL but inaccurate" to "it was as good as my last lot of Radway Green" I decided to take some measurements with my reloading gear and bring some facts to the table. I have no interest in blowing off my face with sketchy ammo (wife + 3 kids would also prefer I remain intact) to save a buck, but I don't have a fortune to spend on ammo and am always shopping for a good deal. When I considered my search results on the more recent (91 vintage) POF ammo it seemed like a good bet given the current cost and low availability of 7.62x51 surplus so I rolled the dice and picked up 1000 rounds.
First off, a quick review of the out of box experience. Widners shipped mine in 2 boxes of 3 and 2 cans respectively - 88 pounds total (the links + cans add a lot of weight, probably 20 pounds). Total cost was $420 shipped USPS ground. It came in standard cardboard shipping boxes with a bit of newspaper and the ammo cans, nothing fancy. The cans themselves are a bit narrower and significantly taller than a standard US .30 cal ammo can and appear to be made of thinner steel. No real lot markings beyond POF/91 on each and some stickers that Widners or their distributor added. These were originally continuous belts of ammo packaged for use in machine guns that have had the tracers removed (normally every 5th round which is why these end up in 4 round links) that appear to have been evened up to 200 rounds per can and simply repacked in the original brown cans. In total I ended up with 5 x tall-skinny 30 caliber ammo cans, 1250 M13 machine gun links + 5 starter tabs and 1000 rounds of POF 7.62x51 '91 headstamped ammunition.
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Of the 5 cans I got, 4 had to be pried open as the rubber gaskets had settled onto the rim of the can making for a nice, airtight seal. The can that opened without mechanical assistance was still sealed and the ammunition had no difference in appearance when compared to the other cans. All of the rounds were linked, 4 rounds with 5 links each, but did not show any signs of corrosion or dented cases, etc... I measured OAL of some sample rounds and then set about de-linking a batch using a scrap of wood to press the cartridges nose first out of the links. OAL did not change on any of the rounds I sampled after using this method so I used the same process to delink all 1000 rounds (rechecking OAL on sample lots twice as I went). As I delinked, I pulled two cartridges from each can at random and set them aside for dis-assembly and measurement later. At the end of the process the links nearly filled a 3 gallon bucket, the ammunition fit nicely into 2 x 50 caliber ammo cans and I had 10 cartridges from the 5 cans set aside for "QA testing."
The links themselves are the M13 style for .308 compatible with the M60, M240 or mini gun - each can includes one starter tab... I don't run any belt fed equipment so I'll probably sell/trade them away. The belt of empties in the photo was just me messing around with some spent/berdan primed cases in the scrap brass bucket that I'll probably give to the neighbor kid.
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The 10 cartridges I'd set aside were marked 1-10 (2 each from the 5 cans I got) and I measured COL (Cartridge Overall Length) and the weight of the powder charge inside each of these. For those hoping otherwise these are all Berdan, not Boxer primed. Bullets were all 147 grain FMJ affairs that I have not (yet) measured for consistency. Bullets are sealed at the neck with black/tar style substance and the primers with typical red sealant. I used my digital calipers to measure OAL of each cartridge before I used a Lyman Magnum bullet puller to break these down. I then took a powder weight measurement with my Dillon Eliminator 3-poise balance powder scale. The powder was all free flowing (no clumping) and appears to be a typical extruded military stick powder... no way to identify it's formulation/origin though. It did not have any visual signs of deterioration and none of the smells I've associated with bad/old powder.
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o305/yuppiejr/DSC06731.jpg)
OAL varied from 2.779 to 2.786 with an average of 2.781.
Powder Charge varied from 44.4 to 45.2 with an average of 44.67 grains. *
* Standard deviation in the sample was .8 grains, if I knock off the high/low it was .4 so somewhere in the 1-2% range which isn't out of line for surplus ammo and better than most of the steel cased Russian import I've spot checked.
After reviewing the data in my reloading books for projectiles in this weight range + some web research on duplicate load data for 7.62 NATO M80 Ball ammo with different powders the charge could be on the hot side (assuming a 4895 type) or a bit below max for something like BL-C2 (WC846) or H380. Anecdotal reports indicate this stuff runs on the "hot" side though I haven't shot any of it to confirm this.
I've seen some nasty milsurp ammo out there and gotten lots of loose packed Lake City ball ammo that was in significantly worse shape than this stuff... While the delinking process is a bit of a pain the ammo itself is in really good shape with none of the corrosion that has been popping up in battle packs of Port. from Samco or some odd lots of German battle packs out there. It's visually nicer than the last batch of Indian OFV headastamp stuff I had (50 cal ammo can, 10 rounds each to plastic sleeves) with none of the occasional OAL/case length variances or odd rolled crimps that popped up a couple times per can.
The biggest negative to this stuff, so far, is delinking... I do like giving each round a quick twist through some steel wool or an alcohol dampened rag to remove any dust and oil which is a step I use when inspecting and sorting any lot of loose packed milsurp ammo. Note the ammo shown in the 50 cal ammo cans above has just been delinked, not cleaned or polished in any way. I see no indications that this ammo was improperly stored or handled and when delinked and given a quick swipe with a rag it's not visually different than the better 7.62 ball surplus I've messed with.
As for "don't buy ammo from countries where you wouldn't drink the water..." POF / Pakistan Ordnance Factories has been around since 1951 and has modern production facilities that is are ISO 9001-2000, ISO 14001 and ISO 17025 certified. Packaging and storage conditions are, in my mind, as if not more important than the quality of the outfit that originally produced the ammo. Most of the complaints I've read about bad surplus ammo has more to do with the way it was packaged and stored (moldy battle packs from Portugal or South Africa full of corroded ammo, LC surplus that's been riding around in an unlined ammo can getting dented and beat to hell, etc..). Wherever Widener's got this stuff it appears to have been well stored without excessive moisture or humidity (hard to find either in Pakistan).
http://www.pof.gov.pk/ProductsList.aspx (http://www.pof.gov.pk/ProductsList.aspx)
This isn't crap ammo that some kid or crippled old man is throwing together with a mallet in a shelled out countryside village... but if you choose to avoid it for that reason it just means more for the rest of us when supplies of decent 7.62 NATO surplus for less than $500 a case is hard to come by. I'm OK with this... :) As for the "I wouldn't drink the water" logic... keep in mind a lot of these countries spend a whole lot more on military/industrial ventures than quality of life/civil projects.
I'll add some comments after I get back from the farm with this stuff over the weekend where I'll be running it in a collection of semi-auto and bolt action rifles including my Springfield M1a.
Folks must have been paying attention to your review. It's now showing out of stock. :)
Thanks for going to all the trouble. I'll order some if they ever get any more.
For pure practice ammo, the DAG plastic training ammo they sell is a good buy at $170.. pushes a 10 grain plastic projectile close to 4k FPS which is accurate (enough) out to 100 yards... $170 for 1000, shipped.
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8699&dir=18|830|848
I ran some through my Ruger Gunsite Scout (bolt action .308 with aperture sights, 10 round detachable magazines) at my last Appleseed and it gives you the muzzle flash + 30 caliber hole without the recoil or pressure wave that disturbs other shooters... though it will turn your semi-auto into a bolt action/single shot. :)
If only Ruger could fix the mag springs in their polymer 10 rounders it would be an almost perfect bolt gun for Appleseed, hopefully I will be ready to write a review on the rifle once I get the replacement mags back from Ruger...
Thanks for the tip! Just ordered some of these to try out, how accurate we're they at 25 when you used it at the Appleseed?
~PlatzOut~
Quote from: Yuppiejr on June 14, 2012, 12:49:44 AM
For pure practice ammo, the DAG plastic training ammo they sell is a good buy at $170.. pushes a 10 grain plastic projectile close to 4k FPS which is accurate (enough) out to 100 yards... $170 for 1000, shipped.
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8699&dir=18|830|848
I ran some through my Ruger Gunsite Scout (bolt action .308 with aperture sights, 10 round detachable magazines) at my last Appleseed and it gives you the muzzle flash + 30 caliber hole without the recoil or pressure wave
The DAG training ammo is capable of 1" groups at 25 yards though the POI is high and right compared to the suplus I usually shoot so you'd need to adjust zero accordingly. Wind will toss it around at 100 yards which was a problem last time I tested it with 30+ MPH gusts. I managed to forget the DAG at home when I went to the farm to shoot this weekend so I didn't get to test it in an M1a, word on the street is this stuff will NOT cycle a semi-auto unless you have a modified/low mass bolt carrier but you can always simulate the bolt action experience and hand cycle the action each shot in stages 2-3. :)
I did some field testing of the POF .308/7.62 this weekend and it performed as well as I'd hoped... no failures to report, very accurate and consistent on a 5" AR550 steel gong at 125 yards. People have reported it's "dirty" compared to other surplus but I would actually disagree with this, the inside of spent cases was significantly cleaner than the '82 RG I've run and nothing like the filth that Herters (TulAmmo) or Wolf are capable of producing.