I'm willing to buy a proper ACOG for my 20" AR flat-top in .223, but $800 to $1000 for a rimfire rig is a bit steep.
Who makes the best ACOG-ish knockoff scope for a rimfire black rifle?
I would suggest a slight change in mindset. Instead of trying to find an ACOG clone for a .22 why not try to find a good scope that does the job that is easy to move between both platforms?
Burris' AR 332 prism sight comes in a fixed 3x and fixed 5x and is made specifically for ARs in 5.56. It has a graduated reticule with drops out to 600 yards and Burris published their comeup data for the sight on their webpage. I have used two (.5 has one on her 16" and Hawkhavn has one on his 20") and they are both really good optics. At the NRA convention myself and another instructor walked back and forth from the Burris booth to the Trijicon booth and found the clarity and construction on the Burris to be the equal to the ACOG (easily in fact). The kicker is that it only runs $280, so it isn't going to break the bank and can be easily moved back and forth.
Quote from: SPQR on May 24, 2012, 06:51:04 PM
I would suggest a slight change in mindset. Instead of trying to find an ACOG clone for a .22 why not try to find a good scope that does the job that is easy to move between both platforms?
I appreciate the suggestion but I don't believe in taking optics off one firearm to put them on another, repeatedly.
I might consider the Burris you suggested for the .22. Though I'd prefer to spend a bit less on something that has a parallax intended for rimfire distances.
NC Star, FTW!
Is it better to pay 3-400 dollars a piece for a mediocre scopes for multiple rifles, or to pay top dollar for one scope with quality glass that you can enjoy on every rifle you own? You can only shoot one rifle at a time so why own 10 different scopes that each cost 100's of dollars. I just had this discussion with my dad today, I don't understand why someone will spend $2,000 on a rifle and them buy a $100.00 scope and say that that's good enough, to me it boggles the mind.
ACOG's are fantastic tools, and you can pick up a replacement mount from any number of companys Larue tatical, YHM, and GG&G just to name a few with a quick detach can lever and you can swap it between as many rifles as you want and adjust the dope all you want and your never going to hurt that thing, I've watched those thing get ran over by MRAPS while they were on weapons systems and on pavement and they didn't get hurt. Those things are as close to bullet proof as you can make a scope. Hell the marines use them, and you know those guys can break just about anything.
Get your ACOG it's over kill for a .22 but it will work just fine on the 25 yard line, if you have a black rifle already, and you are looking for an Appleseed/training rifle. I would suggest one of those S&W 15-22's. Only met 2 people who didn't like them so far, and they cost about th same as any dedicated upper you will find, and only a little more than most conversion kits. then you can swap your ACOG back and forth all day and never miss a beat.
My reasoning behind this is, Train as you fight, it's easier to Learn and become profesient withone weapons platform one scope, then it is to become alright with two complatly different rifles with two different scopes.
~PlatzOut~
Another option:
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_s/586.htm (https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_s/586.htm)
I have a Primary Arms red dot sight on one of my AR-15s. Inexpensive but good for non-combat use.
Platz, you misunderstand.
It's going on my AR centerfire platform for the following reasons:
1. Familiarity and mastery of the platform if I need to coach any more users of the system, like WSMR.
2. Rifle competition
3. Flexibility as a coyote gun for varmint/predator suppression in hunting areas in AZ (I have a 5rd mag for my AR)
4. Redcoat Zombie Suppression if necessary as a last resort. ;D
I don't want to take it off. Once dialed, I don't want to have to adjust it. The magic of the ACOG is its ranging reticle.
But... If I ever do take it off, I want to know it's never been dialed dope for a .22 rather than its intended rifle. I do have a carry handle with irons for my AR, which are currently riding up-top of it. The rifle it would go onto is my backup rig for High Power for when my main rig inevitably needs a barrel replacement, in the next year to 18 months. I understand the mount is very high quality and very repeatable, meaning I can switch between irons and ACOG and move a minute or less each time re-mounting either device.
Likewise, I want to "train like I fight" as you mentioned. I want an identical sight picture and magnification on the .22 trainer as on the real rifle.
Guys, I've thought long and hard on this. Money is not the object here, but I'm not going to waste money by getting 2 ACOGs and slapping one on a .22. That's just dumb. I've bought a CMP Special Garand, a White Oak .223 upper, a custom 7 twist chrome lined upper (the one in question here for the ACOG), appropriate lowers to everything, a spotting scope, and reloading components for thousands of rounds of ammo in the last year. I'm shooting "expert" in High Power matches and a few practice sessions away from beginning to shoot "master" instead.
Considerable research has gone into my decision here.
Quote from: slim on May 24, 2012, 11:16:09 PM
NC Star, FTW!
Thank you for staying on topic, Slim. Do you own an NCStar ACOG knockoff? How does it compare to the real thing in your personal experiences?
I'll second Kenjo's mention of Primary Arms. I've never seen their optics, but I recently bought one of their scope mounts (for $60). Great price, fantastic customer service, and speedy shipping. I have no doubt I could have gotten a better mount, but not for anywhere close to that price.
Roland
Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on May 25, 2012, 02:19:40 AMThank you for staying on topic, Slim. Do you own an NCStar ACOG knockoff? How does it compare to the real thing in your personal experiences?
I don't own either. But from what I've seen at the gun shows and out on the firing lines, it would be a great $60 investment, provided you're not running it over with an MRAP. If it's just going on your "training rifle" and taking trips to the one-way range, no worries. Buy one and train with it. Put the big boy on your big boy rifle and put the NC Star knockoff on your trainer.
NC Star and many other "poor quality foreign crap" has come a long way and is starting to make better and better products as they steal more intellectual property and patents, copyrights, etc. Most stuff that's "airsoft quality" is just fine for rimfire and holds up quite well at the range.
I'm all for "buying the best" when it comes to equipment and gear, etc., but keep in mind it's the software, not the hardware. Would I put a NC Star knockoff on my "rainy day rifle?" Probably not. But, I'd sure as heck put one on there until I saved up the money for a real ACOG.
... and somewhere along the way, I might realize that $1000+ for the ACOG could buy me another rifle or two (or a boatload of ammo) and I'd just keep the knockoff - maybe even buy one for my new rifle!
QuoteNC Star and many other "poor quality foreign crap" has come a long way and is starting to make better and better products as they steal more intellectual property and patents, copyrights, etc.
Allow me to apologize if I'm out of line - But for some reason I find this line hilarious... **) **) **)
Because of how true it is. Also, companies are starting to do more and more thorough inspections state-side. Don't know that I could say they're actually getting better at building the stuff, but at least more of it is filtered out before it gets to the end user. A 'friend of mine' does this in his mechanical assembly occupation. The goods come in, he takes them apart, inspects and reassembles - I'm not going to say the failure rate, but anyway...
We had a guy on the line, the end of last year. He had a knock-off ACOG, he don't even know who made it, got it off ebay or something for dirt. He had no real complaints - for the price he paid. We did discover, that the click-values were not as advertised. I think it might have even had one of the ACOG-style reticles. Clarity was acceptable for a trainer.
Ultimately the problem with these companies isn't necessarily design(they copied it) or materials. It's all in the QC department. Thus, everything varies from shift to shift, lot to lot... Like a lot of our .22lr ammunition mfg's.
Quote from: AFTERMATH on May 25, 2012, 07:43:14 PMWe did discover, that the click-values were not as advertised.
After adjusting a real ACOG, I don't think the click-values really mattered anyway. What are they, eighths? Sixteenths, maybe?
Either way, after about 250 clicks, we finally got on target... and because we're on the AS Forum - We immediately did the "click it 10 clicks, reverse-IMC it" drill so the dude could write the info in his book. With any cheap optic (or real ACOG, apparently!) it's necessary to do that drill so click-values can be determined.
Just ordered the NCstar 4x32 MkIII. We'll see how it holds up on my little CMMG .22 AR.
The true ACOG will come in a few months.
Just know that about the only way you'll get the same reticle is to use the ACOG.
I like them, and my AR wears one. My issued M4 wore one, while I was still in, and that got me hooked. 4x32, TA 31-F model, the same as my military one was.
About Foreign manufacturers 'stealing designs'....
In Music Equipment, it often goes like this:
A company decides to have some equipment manufactured in China.
The SAME factory in China then makes the same product with a different logo.
They might swap out some parts to lower the cost or change the appearance slightly.
A few years ago there was a $1,000 microphone (European company) manufactured in China. You could buy the SAME mic with me component changed out for $125 (and no Logo).
I have a TA31-RCO and it's fantastic, my next purchase will be a schmit and Bender. Why? BIMHO, they have the best glass out there. You can buy cheap knock offs all day if you want, we live in America and that's what makes this country so great. Just don't be surprised after you have made some adjustments on that thing, and it's been bounced around a bit that it breaks..... And then you ask why. I will tell you right now in advance....... Ready? YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR! Now by no means am I telling you to spend $1,500 on a sight but if you already have one just swap it over, keep track of your sight adjustments when your done, move it back and fire 3 rounds to verify zero. It's not magic, you know how to do this stuff. And like Nickle said the only way your going to get a ACOG sight picture is to use an ACOG. Save that $100 and use it to buy ammo.
Take it or leave it, it's just two guys talking.
~PlatzOut~
The Leatherwood CMR for about $300 is fantastic. Here's a review from one of Suarez's instructors. I shot rifleman yesterday with one on a 10/22.
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/02/hi-lux-leatherwood-cmr-1-4x24-test-and-evaluation-.html
Quote from: Nickle on May 27, 2012, 10:54:47 AM
Just know that about the only way you'll get the same reticle is to use the ACOG.
I like them, and my AR wears one. My issued M4 wore one, while I was still in, and that got me hooked. 4x32, TA 31-F model, the same as my military one was.
I realized that when it arrived last night.
Reticle is nothing like the neat chevron/graduated distance BDC system on a real ACOG.
Oh, well. It's $60 and a 4x32 quick detach scope for my .22 AR. I'll try to get it sighted in this weekend... I've got several "back of the safe" rifles that need a sight-in session right now... been focusing on my two AR's, M14 and Garand exclusively for a long time and neglecting the others.