I need a collection of data on different rifles front and rear sights. Here are two common examples:
Ruger 10/22 Tech Sights TSR100 18.5" Barrel
Rear Sight:
Elevation: Not Adjustable
Windage: 5/8 MOA per click
Front Sight:
Elevation: 5/8 MOA per click
Windage: Not Adjustable
Ruger 10/22 Tech Sights TSR200 18.5" Barrel
Rear Sight:
Elevation: 5/8 MOA per click
Windage: 5/8 MOA per click
Front Sight:
Elevation: 5/8 MOA per click
Windage: Not Adjustable
This is for an Appleseed iOS application which is being developed. I would like to keep the list to the 30-40 most common varieties of rifles found on Appleseed lines which have click-adjustable sights.
Thanks!
EDIT
Mossberg Plinkster 702 18" Barrel
MOS 200 Tech Sights
Rear Sight
Windage and Elevation 5/8 MOA per click
Front Sight non adjustable
Quote from: Justsomedude on May 14, 2012, 05:14:24 PM
Mossberg Plinkster 702
MOS 200 Tech Sights
Rear Sights 5/8 MOA per click
(same as 10/22)
I am guessing it is the 18" Barrel version of the plinkster and the front sight is elevation adjustable?
What do the clicks work out to for TSR 100s on a 1o/22 with the 22 inch barrel?
Remember, you can work out the adjustments on any sight. Just go and shoot 3 rounds, make a known adjustment (say 10 clicks) and then shoot 3 more. Look at the result and do the math backwards.
If you run across a rifle you do not know the adjustments for when instructing, great! Tell the student that you do not know, and if he does not then there are two people about to learn something (two is better than one!). Have them do the above and get an answer. Verify it with a second adjustment and then have them write it down.
And you might write it down too.
O0
Quote from: Miller on June 26, 2012, 01:26:55 AM
What do the clicks work out to for TSR 100s on a 1o/22 with the 22 inch barrel?
I really like techres' answer. I know most people don't do anything beyond simple addition and subtraction in our daily lives but basic algebra, geometry and trigonometry aren't very difficult. If you're not comfortable thinking about math problems then it's a great area to improve yourself. Basic math skills are a rifleman's friend. Even though my chosen profession has me using math more than the average person I have had to brush up on my own skills a bit as well.
There is another way to figure out the answer to your problem because of what is already known. If you have sights where you already know what the clicks are for a certain sight radius you can work out values for a different sight radius with a simple formula. You know a TSR-100 is 0.625 MOA per click with an 18.5" barrel and have a 22" barrel.
known sight radius
-------------------------- * known MOA per click = MOA per click for unknown sight radius
unknown sight radius
You will have to measure the sight-radius of each rifle since using barrel length in that calculation won't give quite the right answer. Of course you should verify the results by doing what techres suggested.
There's a huge list somewhere here on this website.
You're probably more likely to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow than find that list but I remember someone (California?) putting one together for an IBC or Instructor shooting day or form to pass out or something or other.
I believe I may've posted in it if that would help your search-fu. But, then again, maybe I didn't so the chase just got goosier and more wild.
Good luck!
I could see this being useful for instructors when presented with an unfamiliar rifle. But, just make sure that this doesn't turn into a crutch for shooters... They need to be able to figure out what their clicks are right on the line.
If anything, I'd just add the information that is taught in an IBC/RBC to the app if you want to talk sight adjustments... I wouldn't really add more than stuff like "Most scopes are 1/4MOA per click", "Tech Sights are typically 1MOA per click", "AK/SKS sights are typically 8MOA per 360 degree turn."
My $0.02
Quote from: Foppish Dandy on June 26, 2012, 05:54:38 PM
I could see this being useful for instructors when presented with an unfamiliar rifle. But, just make sure that this doesn't turn into a crutch for shooters... They need to be able to figure out what their clicks are right on the line.
If anything, I'd just add the information that is taught in an IBC/RBC to the app if you want to talk sight adjustments... I wouldn't really add more than stuff like "Most scopes are 1/4MOA per click", "Tech Sights are typically 1MOA per click", "AK/SKS sights are typically 8MOA per 360 degree turn."
My $0.02
I understand your concerns. I don't want to create a crutch for people either as I feel it is quite important to understand the math of what is going on and how to do it for yourself.
Quote from: slim on June 26, 2012, 03:27:59 PM
There's a huge list somewhere here on this website.
You're probably more likely to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow than find that list but I remember someone (California?) putting one together for an IBC or Instructor shooting day or form to pass out or something or other.
I believe I may've posted in it if that would help your search-fu. But, then again, maybe I didn't so the chase just got goosier and more wild.
Good luck!
My search-fu is weak today and has not been up to the challenge of finding it. I will try again though. I have a suspicion the post, which I have heard reference to before, might be in an area of the forum not yet accessible to me.
Quote from: Edheler on June 26, 2012, 10:46:32 AM
Quote from: Miller on June 26, 2012, 01:26:55 AM
What do the clicks work out to for TSR 100s on a 1o/22 with the 22 inch barrel?
I really like techres' answer. I know most people don't do anything beyond simple addition and subtraction in our daily lives but basic algebra, geometry and trigonometry aren't very difficult. If you're not comfortable thinking about math problems then it's a great area to improve yourself. Basic math skills are a rifleman's friend. Even though my chosen profession has me using math more than the average person I have had to brush up on my own skills a bit as well.
There is another way to figure out the answer to your problem because of what is already known. If you have sights where you already know what the clicks are for a certain sight radius you can work out values for a different sight radius with a simple formula. You know a TSR-100 is 0.625 MOA per click with an 18.5" barrel and have a 22" barrel.
known sight radius
-------------------------- * known MOA per click = MOA per click for unknown sight radius
unknown sight radius
You will have to measure the sight-radius of each rifle since using barrel length in that calculation won't give quite the right answer. Of course you should verify the results by doing what techres suggested.
I fear no math. :)
My issue is/was not actually having access to a 10/22 with the 22 inch barrel.
And Given that the front dovetail on the Ruger barrels seems to be the same distance from the muzzle for both barrel lengths I should be able to figure out the sight radius with my own 18.5" barreled LTRs and a bit of fiddling with numbers.
It'll be interesting to see if my theoretical numbers match up with reality if I get ahold of a 22" barreled rifle.
He speaks truth! Finding something like that on this forum is like finding a stash of legally owned 11 round pistol magazines in, well, some state WAY out West.
Attached is a document I was able to scroung up. I'm not sure exactly how accurate these adjustments are, as I did not come up with them all, so if there are any errors, please let me know.
Quote from: slim on June 26, 2012, 03:27:59 PM
There's a huge list somewhere here on this website.
You're probably more likely to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow than find that list but I remember someone (California?) putting one together for an IBC or Instructor shooting day or form to pass out or something or other.
I believe I may've posted in it if that would help your search-fu. But, then again, maybe I didn't so the chase just got goosier and more wild.
Good luck!
^^^^^
*poke*
Miller, the numbers listed in that doc file are most certainly not right for different barrel length Ruger 10/22s with TechSights. The number I have applying the formula I mentioned above is 0.54 MOA per click.
0.375 MOA per click would equate to a barrel of a little over 33.5".
Quote from: Miller on June 27, 2012, 12:07:55 AM
^^^^^
*poke*
:cool2: ^-^
Quote from: Edheler on June 27, 2012, 12:23:16 AM
Miller, the numbers listed in that doc file are most certainly not right for different barrel length Ruger 10/22s with TechSights. The number I have applying the formula I mentioned above is 0.54 MOA per click.
0.375 MOA per click would equate to a barrel of a little over 33.5".
That's why you need to verify with your own gear...or get Edheler to help you out! :bow:
So on that document, probably just ignore the 22" barrel adjustments and treat a 22" like the 20" because they seem to be almost the same. Right, Edheler? ::)
Quote from: GoldFish on June 27, 2012, 05:39:18 PM
So on that document, probably just ignore the 22" barrel adjustments and treat a 22" like the 20" because they seem to be almost the same.
I didn't really want to solve the problem for everyone... :wb:
My Ruger 10/22 with an 18.5" barrel and TechSights has a sight radius of 23.75". Applying the formula above, which is just using simple ratios, you would get the following results:
14.0" barrel = 20.25" sight radius = 0.73 MOA per click
16.0" barrel = 22.25" sight radius = 0.67 MOA per click
18.0" barrel = 23.25" sight radius = 0.64 MOA per click
18.5" barrel = 23.75" sight radius = 0.625 MOA per click
20.0" barrel = 25.25" sight radius = 0.59 MOA per click
22.0" barrel = 27.25" sight radius = 0.54 MOA per click
24.0" barrel = 29.25" sight radius = 0.51 MOA per click
The built-in assumption with those numbers is that the dovetail mount for the front sight is the same distance from the crown of the barrel and that the claimed barrel lengths are accurate.
GoldFish, thanks for finding that doc file. I will verify what was in it that isn't related to the Ruger 10/22. :)
Well, my 22" bbl LTR project is on hold for a while so it's not a big deal.
I just picked up a billet aluminum AR lower from a newer local gun shop. They're getting into the custom build side of the business and got a run of lowers with their logo on the mag well. Always one to support the local guy I shelled out for one and am going to build it into a nice 'seed ready KD rifle.
Oh, and they now have a stack of AS trifolds on the counter and I'm trying to talk the owner into coming to a shoot. I'm planning on swinging back by there with a few Redcoats for him to try and/or give away.
Quote from: Miller on June 27, 2012, 06:28:22 PMam going to build it into a nice 'seed ready KD rifle.
Revolver or semi?
Without opening the can of worms that is the AR debate, I'll humbly add I have a $50 LPK in mine and it works fine for 'seedin. I hear folks talk about $200 triggers and two-stage this, match that. They also get into the debate of which twist rate is best, which sights, etc.
The fact of the matter is any AR is a fine 'seedin rifle and in the true spirit of a Rifleman, you shouldn't need all that fancy-shmancy stuff.
Cool. So the "4 MOA accurate" answers are in red...
Quote from: Edheler on June 27, 2012, 06:05:44 PM
16.0" barrel = 22.25" sight radius = 0.67 MOA per click 1/2 MOA
18.0" barrel = 23.25" sight radius = 0.64 MOA per click 1/2 MOA
18.5" barrel = 23.75" sight radius = 0.625 MOA per click 1/2 MOA
20.0" barrel = 25.25" sight radius = 0.59 MOA per click 1/2 MOA
22.0" barrel = 27.25" sight radius = 0.54 MOA per click 1/2 MOA
24.0" barrel = 29.25" sight radius = 0.51 MOA per clickimed barrel lengths are accurate. 1/2 MOA
14.0" barrel = 20.25" sight radius = 0.73 MOA per click Where's Your Tax Stamp?
Guess that covers it. Answer for our purposes is 1/2 MOA.... O0
techres, I want you to understand that I am not picking on you. This is a pet-peeve of mine. :)
I agree with you under only one circumstance: we do not want to overwhelm students with math when we are trying to teach them IMC.
In my IMC presentation I always tell the students that TechSights on a Ruger 10/22 with a standard 18.5" barrel is five-eighths of a MOA per click but that we're rounding it down to a half MOA per click to make the math easier for them. This is the cue for those who might not be at their first Appleseed and have IMC seeping into their brain to start thinking about the problem in a more general way. Admittedly, I have only been asked about the difference afterwards once. It was a great conversation because the shooter really was understanding!
Testing your assertion: If a Ruger 10/22 with an 18.5" barrel and TechSights is on the line at 25 meters. His group is 5" to the left of the center of a square. (Not uncommon in my experience.) Using the easy math you would have him adjust 40 clicks (Versus 32 if we took 20 MOA and divided by 0.625.) which would leave him 5 MOA to the right of the center of the square when he shoots his next square. Certainly we can dial him in, but I think I have made my point: rounding down is not "4 MOA accurate."
A rifleman should know their rifle and be comfortable with the math. Nearly everyone today carries around a device which can act as a calculator and has very little excuse for not using it. I am not asking everyone to do fractional division in their head or even on paper.
Once a rifle is zeroed, the vast majority of any field-expedient shooting will be done with hold-overs and kentucky windage except for the set of 2 or 3 numbers for your come ups. You're going to need good numbers for your MOA's per click to estimate your come ups before verifying.
It is far too easy to get into a mental adjustment loop if we use approximate math. Why waste ammo when you don't have to? So long as someone shoots a consistent and tight group they should be able to zero any rifle, after they understand IMC, by shooting exactly 2 3-round groups. One to find out how much they are off, and another to verify that they are on target.
Don't let yourself get stuck in the mindset that math is hard. It isn't; but most of us have trained ourselves to think that way. Break out from your shackles! ;) :)
Quote from: techres on June 28, 2012, 10:11:48 AM
Cool. So the "4 MOA accurate" answers are in red...
Quote from: Edheler on June 27, 2012, 06:05:44 PM
16.0" barrel = 22.25" sight radius = 0.67 MOA per click 1/2 MOA
18.0" barrel = 23.25" sight radius = 0.64 MOA per click 1/2 MOA
18.5" barrel = 23.75" sight radius = 0.625 MOA per click 1/2 MOA
20.0" barrel = 25.25" sight radius = 0.59 MOA per click 1/2 MOA
22.0" barrel = 27.25" sight radius = 0.54 MOA per click 1/2 MOA
24.0" barrel = 29.25" sight radius = 0.51 MOA per clickimed barrel lengths are accurate. 1/2 MOA
14.0" barrel = 20.25" sight radius = 0.73 MOA per click Where's Your Tax Stamp?
Guess that covers it. Answer for our purposes is 1/2 MOA.... O0
Quote from: Edheler on June 28, 2012, 12:23:36 PMTesting your assertion: If a Ruger 10/22 with an 18.5" barrel and TechSights is on the line at 25 meters. His group is 5" to the left of the center of a square. (Not uncommon in my experience.) Using the easy math you would have him adjust 40 clicks (Versus 32 if we took 20 MOA and divided by 0.625.) which would leave him 5 MOA to the right of the center of the square when he shoots his next square. Certainly we can dial him in, but I think I have made my point: rounding down is not "4 MOA accurate."
I love it when that happens!
Now we get to do IMC AGAIN! and it proves to the shooter that the math DOES work. "Remember, we said it was 5/8 but rounded down? If you want to do the fractions... Now you just got some valuable feedback for your rifle and you know how the sights work. You're closer to 5/8 than 1/2. Next time you need to make a sight correction remember that."
Believe it or not, this is one of those "good mistakes." I love it when it takes two or three times - or we go the wrong way! - because it shows the shooter the math really does work, we just have to find out exactly what it is for their rifle/sights.
All too often when we do it once and it works and they're on target - they move on. Both mentally and physically. And then they have no idea how to do IMC. If they have to do it a few times in a row - with new numbers! - then it helps them conceptualize it while also really dialing in on their exact measurements.
It's not a mistake.... it's an opportunity!
Slim, for students who are new to IMC, or didn't understand it at a previous Appleseed, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I see the value in the exercise and getting the student to do the math repeatedly works. There is a reason why math is taught through repetition. :) I only contend that there is also opportunity for those who are "getting it" to gain a better appreciation. :)
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=19185.msg152823#msg152823
I agree that throwing a bunch of math at someone unnecessarily is a good way to spook a student. That being said, I changed the original talking targets wallet cards to take other clicks per MOA into account. Just remember, you probably won't have one handy when you really need it, but if you laminate a couple and throw them in your range bag, it'll be there when you are too lazy to do the math...usually.
Another, probably better way to do it, would be to just write down how many MOA for 1 click, 2 clicks, 3 clicks, etc. A lot of Appleseeders write all over the butts of their rifles and/or make range cards for their specific set up.
NH
Quote from: slim on June 28, 2012, 08:59:39 AM
Quote from: Miller on June 27, 2012, 06:28:22 PMam going to build it into a nice 'seed ready KD rifle.
Revolver or semi?
Without opening the can of worms that is the AR debate, I'll humbly add I have a $50 LPK in mine and it works fine for 'seedin. I hear folks talk about $200 triggers and two-stage this, match that. They also get into the debate of which twist rate is best, which sights, etc.
The fact of the matter is any AR is a fine 'seedin rifle and in the true spirit of a Rifleman, you shouldn't need all that fancy-shmancy stuff.
Nothing fancy really, I'm doing this as inexpensively as possible. Rifle length with sights a little closer to the bore than the standard carry handle versions, no rails or other tactical crap. The one splurge might be a Magpul PRS butt stock. The adjustable LOP and comb height look like a nice feature on a rifle I'll be shooting year round. Other than that every buck I save on the build is another couple of rounds I can send down range.
I can save enough money with a cheap LPK to send enough ammo through it to be well on my way to buttery smooth. :---
Miller, you've got your head on straight!
I have a Mako recoil reducing stock with cheek riser on one of my ARs. I really like that thing. About $100.
Quote from: slim on June 28, 2012, 11:44:15 PM
Miller, you've got your head on straight!
You sir may be the only person on this planet to hold that opinion.
And I include myself in that majority. ;)