I am putting together my first AR and need some assistance in choosing the upper. The rifle will be available for home defense/SHTF, but will primarily be used for plinking out to 100 yards and for AS. For a number of reasons, I am heavily leaning to a 16" dissipator set up with a mid-length gas system (primarily bc of the longer sight radius). I have the opportunity to buy a heavy barrel DelTon (1 in 9) or a lighter weight one from PSA (1 in 7). The DTI is second hand, but never shot, so it is about $100 cheaper.
Questions:
1. Since I won't be using the rifle in run and gun, etc., is the extra weight of the heavy barrel really a disadvantage?
2. Will the DTI's 1 in 9 be sufficient for the ammo needed if I ever get to shoot an AQT at full distance?
Any other thoughts are welcome. I appeciate your help.
I would not get the DelTon upper; their stuff isn't really the best from what I know. PSA's are pretty good though, so I would go with that one.
If you do go with DTI, the extra barrel weight isn't really going to hurt you, and in AS, it will probably help you. I have a heavy barreled 16" middy that I have for AS, as well as for self-defense, that feels just right for me. The longer sight-radius is definitely a plus, IMO.
The 1-in-9 twist is fine for FD AQT's. I've shoot at 500m+ in a pretty stout wind with 55 grain bullets, and it worked just fine. A 1-in-9 twist rate is optimal for 55-69 grain rounds, but they'll shoot bullets as heavy as 77 or 80 grain bullets. So YES, the 1-in-9 twist is fine for FD AQT's.
Anything between a 1-in-9 and a 1-in-7 is going to cover you're bases for almost all of the major kinds of ammo that you'll be shooting through an AR. I have a 1-in-7 twist that'll shoot anything I run through it, from 52-77 grains, with sub-MOA accuracy with everything.
So don't get too caught up in the twist rate for AS purposes/4MOA shooting; get an upper with a twist rate between the ones mentioned above, and you'll be fine.
Hope this helps.
Don't sweat the twist. I shoot full distance with my 1 in 9" Bushmaster. It likes 75gr Hornady as well as the standard 55 and 62gr usual suspects.
1. You have no rifle right now.
2. You are aware of limitations in ammo selection that a 9 twist offers.
3. You have the option of buying a 7 twist instead.
I've owned a DelTon 9 twist. It ran wonderfully for several thousand rounds before I sold it to a novice shooter friend for a steeply discounted price. I shot 62gr retail ammo well within the 4MOA standard for Apleseed. I shot 69gr handloaded ammo in High Power matches to 600 yards, to "sharpshooter" standards.
I notice a degradation in accuracy when shooting 75gr or 77gr ammo in that 9 twist. Never even tried 80gr.
I now have a 7 twist.
I just shot a 500 yard event this weekend, running 80gr ammo. 1.5 minute groups from prone, drifting with the wind. 10's and X's, slipping into 9's when I misjudge the wind change, or 8's if my fundamentals slip from time to time. Mostly 10's and X's.
There's just no reason to handicap yourself with a 9 twist when you have a clear option to go better with a 7 twist.
I can shoot a KD AQT with a 9 twist and 55gr ammo if I need to.
But if I'm buying hardware, I'm never going to buy another 9 twist. Just no point.
ETA: Folks who have 9 twist rifles and can shoot Rifleman, I'm not trying to demean your rifle choice. Good on you for pushing the hardware to its utmost capability. But just like you're not likely to trade that rifle for a gen-1 AR-15 with a 12 twist barrel... it's equally unsuitable to recommend a new rifle purchaser seek out a 9 twist when a 7 or 8 twist is better suited.
And I bet that when you do finally shoot that barrel out, and you rebarrel or shop for a new upper, you'll probably go 7 or 8 twist.
Uncle Sam makes M16's and M4's with 7 twist nowadays. Though he issues 62gr ammo almost entirely across the board, with the exception of expert marksmen who get 77gr fodder.
AZ - what is your thinking on the advantage (or not) of the heavy barrel? My general sense is that the accuracy advantage is not going to come into play for the shooting we do at AS. And that I can always add weight up front if it feels more stabile, but you can't take weight off a barrel.
Quote from: LawDog on May 14, 2012, 04:19:42 PM
AZ - what is your thinking on the advantage (or not) of the heavy barrel? My general sense is that the accuracy advantage is not going to come into play for the shooting we do at AS. And that I can always add weight up front if it feels more stabile, but you can't take weight off a barrel.
Heavy barrels don't add accuracy. They add consistency in extended shot strings due to increased thermal dissipation and rigidity as the steel warms and flexes more easily.
My white oak rifle is GI contour and i get about 3/4 to 1 moa of group walk upwards as the barrel warms over 2-3 shots during a rapid string. But you won't be able to discern that change unless you have a free float handguard that takes the sling swivel off the barrel and removes that pressure variation.
If the psa is a standard GI profile, that's 2 points now in its favor.
IMHO, Don't buy Del-ton. Apparently, there are those that won't hold 6 MOA. And then there are others that apparently shoot about 1 MOA. This says bad quality control to me. This is just what I've found through research. I haven't seen one in real life, so this is all just internet hearsay. I think that if you can handle it and see how it shoots, and you think it's good enough, then it probably is.
I personally use a PSA midlength. Due to limited funds, I've only put around 300 rounds through it. But I haven't had a single rifle-related malfunction yet. That's not counting the times I didn't seat the magazine correctly ;D. And, this past weekend, I was able to get a 4.75'' group at 300 yards.
Roland
I think I am liking the PSA more and more.
It is an A2 profile barrel. I think that is the same as "GI," right?
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/complete-uppers/16/psa-16-hammer-forged-midlength-dissipator.html
Hmm...
Don't expect 1 MOA accuracy out of it.
It will be very durable...and probably last more than 10k rounds... but will suffer in accuracy compared to more conventional rifles and carbines.
QuoteOur Hammer-Forged Mid-length mock dissipator uses a "Machine Gun Steel" barrel that is thick chrome-lined for durability and high pressure tested and magnetic particle inspected.
Barrel: A proprietary blend of Hammer forged chrome molly vanadium made by FN that is referred to as "Machine Gun Steel" by virtue of its use in FN's M249 and M240 weapons. The hammer forging process work hardens the steel, making it more durable. In addition, the chrome process for the bore allows for a lining almost twice as thick as a standard M16 for enhanced durability. Chambered in 5.56 NATO, with a 1/7 twist, M4 barrel extension, and a Mid-length gas system. A2 style profile barrel is Mil-spec phosphate coated, High Pressure tested and Magnetic Particle inspected. Barrel is finished off with a pinned F-marked front sight post in the Rifle position with sling swivel, rifle length handguards, and an A2 flash hider.
Chrome lining on standard AR's introduces variations in bore diameter already. A well-built chrome lined rifle may be a 1MOA rifle, but building the bore to true tolerances sans chrome may result in a half MOA rifle.
Not a big deal by Appleseed standards... a 1 MOA rifle is a fine rifle. The vast majority of lazy couch dwellers are lucky if they're 10MOA shooters, right?
But... the double-chrome-lined process here worries me. The thicker the chrome, the greater the potential for diameter deviation through the barrel.
I've never shot a PSA so I will reserve judgement... but I notice that the reviews for this upper lack any reference of potential mechanical accuracy.
Just know that the HBAR adds a good pound onto the weight (depending upon barrel length.
I have a 20" HBAR and I don't mind the weight for the most part.
Is it easier to shoot long Strings in standing position with a lighter/shorter barrel? YES
But it is easier to hold it steady with the added weight.
Mine is a 1/9 twist but I just happened to find it in a trade.
I shoot light cheap ammo anyway.
It shoots better than I do (FOR NOW!) :)
Don't limit yourself with a 1 in 9 - go for at least a 1 in 8.
You can't go wrong with:
Rock River - http://www.rockriverarms.com/
Fulton Armory - http://www.fulton-armory.com/FAR-15.aspx
White Oak Precision - http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/index.htm
Good luck, Sir.
Del-tons dissipator uses a rifle length gas system, which I hear is less than reliable on a 16" barrel. I'd get the PSA for that reason alone unless you are up for potentially enlarging the gas port if the Del ton turns out unreliable.
If the rifle is for Appleseed, plinking and hd, get the lighter profile barrel anyways. I've got a National Match AR and between the heavy barrel, free float tube and a bit of ballast in the buttstock to balance things, it is a 12 pound rifle. It shoots great and is just the thing for CMP matches, but it feels like to much hardware for an AQT and outweighs my Garand. So, I am currently building a similar rifle to what you are looking at: a midlength, lightweight dissipator. It should be a 7-7.5# rifle, for more fun at the range and more than enough potential for a Riflemans score :)
All:
Your collective wisdom and experience is exactly why I posted my questions here. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I went with the PSA upper. Now, to get to Ramseur to put it to good use . . .
LD
Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on May 14, 2012, 03:57:36 PM
ETA: Folks who have 9 twist rifles and can shoot Rifleman, I'm not trying to demean your rifle choice. Good on you for pushing the hardware to its utmost capability. But just like you're not likely to trade that rifle for a gen-1 AR-15 with a 12 twist barrel... it's equally unsuitable to recommend a new rifle purchaser seek out a 9 twist when a 7 or 8 twist is better suited.
And I bet that when you do finally shoot that barrel out, and you rebarrel or shop for a new upper, you'll probably go 7 or 8 twist.
Uncle Sam makes M16's and M4's with 7 twist nowadays. Though he issues 62gr ammo almost entirely across the board, with the exception of expert marksmen who get 77gr fodder.
Shooting Rifleman at full distance with a 1 in 9" twist AR is far from pushing the equipment to its utmost capability. Doing it at 25M is almost too easy. Any AR from a reputable manufacturer is a 1.5 MOA or better rifle.
I shoot sum MOA with my 1 in 9" Bushmaster including 75gr out to 500yds +. I am not saying that all 75gr bullets work well in a 1 in 9" twist but the Hornady does and this is fairly common knowledge.
I am in no way handicapped with a 1 in 9" twist. I propose that a 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 is NOT better suited. I have no plans to replace my 1 in 9" with a faster twist. I have actually tried 1 in 7 and 1 in 8 twist barrels assuming that my accuracy would improve and it did not. What suffered is ammo flexibility. The faster twist barrels seemed more particular with ammo choice. I can shoot 55gr Russian steel case to the 5 gr match ammo and everything in between. I saw more of a POA to POI shift with the faster twist barrels.
There is something wrong with the rifle if accuracy is suffering when going to 62 grain bullets with a 1 in 9" twist barrel.
The only reason that a 1 in7" barrel is Mil Spec is because of the L110/M856 tracers. That is it. The bullets are unusually long. It is not because of the 62 grain M855 bullets.
If you are shooting very long distances and hand loading the unusually long 77gr and larger bullets then a 1 in 9" twist will not get the job done. There is definitely a purpose for faster twist barrels but most people will never ever see the benefit of them over a 1 in 9"
For those who might require more background (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=493277) on dissipators.
Note this is from California, where the common misconception is that EBRs are banned...
Cheers
V
Quote from: LawDog on May 15, 2012, 09:50:18 AM
All:
Your collective wisdom and experience is exactly why I posted my questions here. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I went with the PSA upper. Now, to get to Ramseur to put it to good use . . .
LD
Good choice! Let us know how it shoots! And, of course, pictures are always welcome.
Good choice! Let us know how it shoots! And, of course, pictures are always welcome.
[/quote]
Thanks! I will - gotta build the lower first though!
(BTW, for anyone looking, it appears that DTI is now using a mid-length gas system on their dissipators.)
RE: Trigger
This was a 'guilty pleasure' for me (you can shoot with a GI Trigger) but I got the CMC Drop in trigger.
http://www.botachtactical.com/cmcartatrfl.html
No regrets
Oh yeah...
For AS, the Magpul BAD Lever is handy.
Can drop the Bolt with your right hand still in place
Quote from: Justsomedude on May 16, 2012, 02:05:33 PM
Oh yeah...
For AS, the Magpul BAD Lever is handy.
Can drop the Bolt with your right hand still in place
Huge +1.
The Spike's Battle trigger runs about 5 lbs, and is plenty crisp, is you want something a bit better then a standard GI trigger. Also heard good things about ALG defense, they are a off-shoot of Giselle (sp?) after all.
The only issue with the BAD lever is when you set the rifle down on its left side... CaChunk! It is very easy to cause the bolt to slam shut.
Mine did that anyway.
Seemed to be after the rifle got hot.
Might have put too much grease on the spring etc...
Well, if one is being careful with their rifle, should be able to avoid that.
Quote from: fepowered on May 15, 2012, 01:58:51 PM
Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on May 14, 2012, 03:57:36 PM
ETA: Folks who have 9 twist rifles and can shoot Rifleman, I'm not trying to demean your rifle choice. Good on you for pushing the hardware to its utmost capability. But just like you're not likely to trade that rifle for a gen-1 AR-15 with a 12 twist barrel... it's equally unsuitable to recommend a new rifle purchaser seek out a 9 twist when a 7 or 8 twist is better suited.
And I bet that when you do finally shoot that barrel out, and you rebarrel or shop for a new upper, you'll probably go 7 or 8 twist.
Uncle Sam makes M16's and M4's with 7 twist nowadays. Though he issues 62gr ammo almost entirely across the board, with the exception of expert marksmen who get 77gr fodder.
Shooting Rifleman at full distance with a 1 in 9" twist AR is far from pushing the equipment to its utmost capability. Doing it at 25M is almost too easy. Any AR from a reputable manufacturer is a 1.5 MOA or better rifle.
I shoot sum MOA with my 1 in 9" Bushmaster including 75gr out to 500yds +. I am not saying that all 75gr bullets work well in a 1 in 9" twist but the Hornady does and this is fairly common knowledge.
I am in no way handicapped with a 1 in 9" twist. I propose that a 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 is NOT better suited. I have no plans to replace my 1 in 9" with a faster twist. I have actually tried 1 in 7 and 1 in 8 twist barrels assuming that my accuracy would improve and it did not. What suffered is ammo flexibility. The faster twist barrels seemed more particular with ammo choice. I can shoot 55gr Russian steel case to the 5 gr match ammo and everything in between. I saw more of a POA to POI shift with the faster twist barrels.
There is something wrong with the rifle if accuracy is suffering when going to 62 grain bullets with a 1 in 9" twist barrel.
The only reason that a 1 in7" barrel is Mil Spec is because of the L110/M856 tracers. That is it. The bullets are unusually long. It is not because of the 62 grain M855 bullets.
If you are shooting very long distances and hand loading the unusually long 77gr and larger bullets then a 1 in 9" twist will not get the job done. There is definitely a purpose for faster twist barrels but most people will never ever see the benefit of them over a 1 in 9"
My experience is different - I own both a 1 in 9 and a 1 in 8 twist barrel (don't own 1 in 7). A barrel with 1 in 8 twist is sufficient for up to 80 grain bullets with NO detrimental effect on lighter bullets.
I would not limit myself to a 1 in 9 twist for other than Appleseed or 3-gun with lighter bullets, but prefer a 1 in 8 twist as it's more versatile for both long and short range with light and heavy bullets.
YMMV
Good choice with the PSA Dissipator upper, I have one of these and love it.... then again I have a thing for compact rifles in general and assembling one with rifle length iron sights but carbine handling was win-win.
Another good option from PSA which might be a bit more accurate (once equipment is a limiting factor in your shooting) is their midlength/stainless steel Wylde chambered 16" upper:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/complete-uppers/psa-16-223-wylde-stainless-steel-upper.html
This one has a 1:8 twist 416 stainless (versus chrome plated steel) barrel and the .223 Wylde chamber that will improve accuracy somewhat over a typical 5.56 chambered rifle with the same compatibility with .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO ammo. It's also slightly relieved (narrower) between the gas block and barrel to reduce weight like the Dissipator upper, all for $40 less. This is the upper I suggest to most people who want a "one-rifle" AR - it's good for punching paper, varmint hunting and home defense without breaking the bank. It also seems to be in stock most of the time while the Dissipator upper out of stock frequently.
Quote from: LawDog on May 14, 2012, 11:59:54 AM
I am putting together my first AR and need some assistance in choosing the upper. The rifle will be available for home defense/SHTF, but will primarily be used for plinking out to 100 yards and for AS.
All else aside, if you want a home defence weapon invest in a 45, or better yet a 12 gauge, unless you want your rounds that you put into the bad guy to go though him and into your kids room, or across the street into your neighbors house. 5.56x45 is sananomus for over penitration, and I will leave you with this personal note on the subject, I have found that it is a fantastic round for killing a person, but as far as letting him know he is dead it is horrible. Unless you plan to use MK262, that stuff is Dinomite as JJ would say. If you don't understand what I mean by this closing statment PM me and I will explain it further.
~PlatzOut~
Interesting article on using an AR for home defense:
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/
Ok, I read your artical and I will start out by saying this...
I was a police officer in NJ for two years, I have been in the military between active duty and National guard for 12, and have 3 deployments under my belt. I don't say this because I like to brag, infact I think this is the first time I have ever brought this up on the board, I only say this so you understand I know what I am saying.
Stopping power and killing power are the same thing, one is just polically correct and the other is not. That's why we shoot to stop the threat (Kill) not immobilize or scare off, we say stop because it sounds nicer than kill, and with the extramly Letigous nature of our country today wording is what it is. Two Frangable rounds are crap, and I will leave it at that. Do some indipendent research on terminal balistics, don't just believe what peoe tell you. 3, when it comes to 62 grain 556 rounds I've seen people shot multipul time with both M4's and SAW's and continue to fight until either hit in the head, heart, or blead out. Now the MK262 those are a compleatly different story. Those I've seen targets engaged out to 800 meters and dropped like sacks of potatoes, but that is also surgical shooting as well, but they do make big holes in people. On this same note I have also watched 9mm rounds bounce off the windshield of a car, so I carry a .45/.44mag, IDE carry a 50/500 if I could find one small enough I could conseal. I do agree with the overall over penitration factor of anything you are using. I, and this is just my openion, feel that something that is moving at say 1,000 fps for example a .45 is not going to travel as far as say a 5.56 moving at 2,700 Fps like a Mk262mod 1 which work really well for QCB as well as long range. Now feel free to agree or disagree with anything I say, but keep in mind where you got the information that you drew your conclusions from and where I got mine.
~PlatzOut~
Quote from: LawDog on June 15, 2012, 12:28:48 AM
Interesting article on using an AR for home defense:
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/
I am new to Appleseed I bought a Smith&Wesson M&P 15 16 inch barrel 1 in 8"twist,5r rifling chambered for 5.56 not 223 per factory I think A4 compensator no holes in bottom ran 450 rnds throgh it 1st AS XM855LC AC1 5.56x45 62 grn fmj ball federal cartridge co. (dealer said lake cty ammo) No problems at all just want to know if this the ammo I should use in this gun or is there something better trying to learn you folks sound very knowledgeable and I know #1 teachable attitude.
That setup and ammo combo are compleatly acceptable, expecally for someone starting out, as you get more familure with your rifle and move on to different things such as KD out to and past 500m you will want to start looking at heavier loads such as 75 and 77grain bullets with names like Searia Match King. Eventually you will possably begin to look into optics and when you do this I emplore you to understand that you get what you payfor in this categorie and that a scope that only cost you 100 bucks is a "low end" scope so don't be surprised when it breaks on you. Are there decient scopes on the low end? Yes their are, I have a $300 scope on my appleseed/training rifle, because I'm not spending 1,200 bucks on a rifle I only shoot out to 150 yards. And it's a fantastic scope for the price. This may be more than you initially asked for, also stay away from wolf ammo, that steel cases stuff is bad! Running that though your rifle is like kicking your dog. If you want a rifle you can run junk ammo though get an AK. I know there will be people who disagree with me and that's cool, but when I'm out at the range or on the line and the shooter next to me is having problems with their rifle jamming a d malfunctioning the first thing I ask them is what ammo are you using, and 99% of the time they say wolf, and 100% of those times I tell them that is exactly what their problem is.
~PlatzOut~
Quote from: Bigcountry on June 16, 2012, 03:26:11 AM
I am new to Appleseed I bought a Smith&Wesson M&P 15 16 inch barrel 1 in 8"twist,5r rifling chambered for 5.56 not 223 per factory I think A4 compensator no holes in bottom ran 450 rnds throgh it 1st AS XM855LC AC1 5.56x45 62 grn fmj ball federal cartridge co. (dealer said lake cty ammo) No problems at all just want to know if this the ammo I should use in this gun or is there something better trying to learn you folks sound very knowledgeable and I know #1 teachable attitude.
Thanks SSG Platz agree on optics, I use Leupold, higher end ones on my hunting rifles. I stay away from super cheap ammo, No AK's for me made in USA all the way,maybe a new AR, quality not quanity , rather have 1 good AR than 3 AK's Took off quad rail after first AS,stock fore end back on, bought sling from RWVA ,Magpul rear sight on gun when purchased, Instuctors taught me how to adjust it ,tight groups 2nd AS 23-24 4 boxes of 420 each green tip,working on getting patch then hat. Bringing friends, father & son I bought stainless 10-22 for wife at 1st AS put on sling, waiting for techsights delivery,setting it up for charlie still shot 1 gun hope we can borrow a loaner spreading the word about AS
Thanks for spreading the word, keep doin work, you'll get that rifleman patch in no time.
~PlatzOut~
which hole in my magpul aperture sight when firing at AS 25mt course big or little
The small hole is the default hole if you want to call it that, the large hole is for low light/no light and wearing a gas mask.
~PlatzOut~
Keep in mind that 62-grain military ammunition has to abide by the Geneva Convention.
There are many civilian rounds in both .223 and 5.56 designed for hunting and self defense that will far outperform standard military ammo in terms of raw stopping/killing power in any justifiable home defense scenario. Hornady's TAP is an example of a line of HP and polymer-tipped bullets designed for this very purpose, while the old 55-grain FMJ without the penetrator of the military round also tends to fragment well.
For those of us who don't live in rural areas, also keep in mind that anything other than the military penetrator round will tend to penetrate LESS through multiple layers of building materials than either buckshot or slugs in a shotgun, or many centerfire pistol rounds because the lower mass of the 223/5.56 sheds energy faster.
The Box of Truth has some interesting comparisons of bullet penetration in building materials. http://www.theboxotruth.com/ (http://www.theboxotruth.com/)
Quote from: SSG Platz on June 15, 2012, 01:12:55 AM
Ok, I read your artical and I will start out by saying this...
I was a police officer in NJ for two years, I have been in the military between active duty and National guard for 12, and have 3 deployments under my belt. I don't say this because I like to brag, infact I think this is the first time I have ever brought this up on the board, I only say this so you understand I know what I am saying.
Stopping power and killing power are the same thing, one is just polically correct and the other is not. That's why we shoot to stop the threat (Kill) not immobilize or scare off, we say stop because it sounds nicer than kill, and with the extramly Letigous nature of our country today wording is what it is. Two Frangable rounds are crap, and I will leave it at that. Do some indipendent research on terminal balistics, don't just believe what peoe tell you. 3, when it comes to 62 grain 556 rounds I've seen people shot multipul time with both M4's and SAW's and continue to fight until either hit in the head, heart, or blead out. Now the MK262 those are a compleatly different story. Those I've seen targets engaged out to 800 meters and dropped like sacks of potatoes, but that is also surgical shooting as well, but they do make big holes in people. On this same note I have also watched 9mm rounds bounce off the windshield of a car, so I carry a .45/.44mag, IDE carry a 50/500 if I could find one small enough I could conseal. I do agree with the overall over penitration factor of anything you are using. I, and this is just my openion, feel that something that is moving at say 1,000 fps for example a .45 is not going to travel as far as say a 5.56 moving at 2,700 Fps like a Mk262mod 1 which work really well for QCB as well as long range. Now feel free to agree or disagree with anything I say, but keep in mind where you got the information that you drew your conclusions from and where I got mine.
~PlatzOut~
Quote from: LawDog on June 15, 2012, 12:28:48 AM
Interesting article on using an AR for home defense:
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/
Many people make the mistake of thinking that the Geneva Convention outlaws hollow point ammunition which infact it does not. It is actually The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body. But you are correct that NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention.
If you can find it I would suggest something like Mk262 mod 1 it's a77gr OTM that the military has been using for some time now, at first for snipers and squad designated marksman, but have recently found out it works really well in short barrel carbines as well providing fantastic terminal performance.
~PlatzOut~
On the topic of Dissipator AR's...
Sling tension and POI shift, particularly with thinner profile barrels, was of concern with my AR... so I ended up installing a Windham Weaponry rifle length free float tube which includes a front sling stud. With shipping it was like $85 from their webstore and installing it on the PSA Dissipator upper wasn't a horrible chore if you have the tools, driving the retaining pins out of the front sight tower was the worst part (the $2 nail punch sets from Lowes work great).
The end result turned out nicely, I was out ringing the gong with it at the farm this weekend (5" plate at 125 yards) using a mixed lot of surplus 55 grain with headstamps from '88 through 03 and it did fine when I did my part.
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o305/yuppiejr/ModernDissy.jpg)