I am designing a new patch for summer here in fl. We have all suffered through events with temps over 100 and humidity over 80%. I was going to call it a hellseed patch, but some folks think that might be a bit......agresive? So I need name ideas. Saunaseed? Sweatseed? Swampseed? Somethingseed? Let's have your ideas.
I would check with Fred before you put too much effort into it. :wb:
There was an idea for a desert patch for 110+.... didn't go far.
"I think" the idea is to not have too many, don't want to get into the collect all 12 mindset. It's about saving the country :sos:, not collecting ribbons. Once you make rifleman, better to collect hats than patches.
2 clicks low
I think a Hellseed Patch would go over well in Most of the South Eastern States, From Florida to South Carolina, West to Texas. Remember short sleeves, and Hot Brass don't mix well.
Learning, Instructing, and requalifying in a Different State Should be Recommended, as it helps to strengthenen the bonds of leadership and learning, for all Appleseeder's involved.
O0 O0 O0
I agree that it has to be passed by Fred, but i think the idea is AWESOME. If we can have a WINTER seed patch...we should be able to have a saunaseed or hell seed. Appleseed is a great program, but until you have laid in the sweat of 5 of your closest new friends and shared hot brass ...you truely do not know hell. As far as the name...alternatives maybe summerseed,steamseed, wrinkled appleseed (what does a hot apple do?). good luck Smoakin Gun.Anything we can do to help this happen, do NOT hesitate to call. teresa
Might be appropriate as we battle the demonseed! :) :wb:...O.L.
InfernoSeed
>:D
BAKEDAPPLESEED
Quote from: douglas34474 on May 12, 2012, 06:33:38 PM
BAKEDAPPLESEED
I withdraw my prior post.
I WANT ONE OF THESE!
2cl
I hadn't thought about it, but the patch is not about patch collecting, but I watched, at no less than 10 events last year, folks on the line lying in pools of their own sweat, one girl went home with heat exhaustion on Saturday come back and suffer more on Sunday then shoot score. Lines with no or limited shade. Moms, dads, and kids showing real grit and determination to come out in the heat, sometimes 2 and 3 times in the same summer. The patch is intended as just a little extra for those who persevere, and to save the other patches for those who wait for nicer weather.
How 'bout "Swelterseed?" Temps over 90* F and relative humidity over 90%? I like the idea. We have a Winterseed patch that honors those that persevered in the cold, why not have one that honors those that endure the heat?
brian
^:)^ Finally!
I shot my Riflemen score in record heat and nearly melted away. Thankfully I shot 210 and got baptized. Please, please, pleasecan we have a Heat stroke patch. When the gun is so hot that it burns you when you pick it up and you've sweat through you appleseed t-shirt and look like you've showered in it. You really have earned a patch.
The lettering should look melted and flames should be shooting out of it.
^:)^ Bring out a summer seed patch! Please :bow:
Being from AZ, one of our shoot bosses thought of "Suns of Liberty" patch. We where at 106 for our April 20th shoot. For those who mention the "dry heat" aspect. At 110 rolling down your window on the freeway is like having a giant blow dryer blowing on you. And at 114+ pavement gets to about 185 reflecting heat back at you. Lows at night of 98 because the pavement keeps the heat.
I have been in both. At 105 I'll take the dry. 110 + things start to change. 115 never been in a humid place at that temp, but deep breaths burn in dry places.
I would propose the badge be for 110+ as it presents major discomfort and keeping hydrated can be dangerous if you only drink water. But that is just me.
What's next? The sunshine patch :-[, rain patch :'( , wind and dust patch :-\? It troubles me to see seasoned riflemen complain and then lobby for these type of rewards !@#) . Why? Because there is no end to this type of dialogue :wb: . You are all slipping into that entitlement mentality where you deserve something special %).
Being an Appleseed volunteer is what makes you special. ^:)^ ^:)^
I would hope that, being riflemen, you would have a moment of clarity. &)
Different types of rifleman's patches only leads to class warfare amongst us. :shootself:
My America,my Appleseed, my mission~Two Wolves
Then why is there a "WINTERSEED" patch?
Quote from: douglas34474 on May 13, 2012, 11:21:13 AM
Then why is there a "WINTERSEED" patch?
Very good question, IMHO.
Quote from: douglas34474 on May 13, 2012, 11:21:13 AM
Then why is there a "WINTERSEED" patch?
I suspect because the Northern side of the War Between the States lobbied for it. ;D
Quote from: douglas34474 on May 13, 2012, 11:21:13 AM
Then why is there a "WINTERSEED" patch?
To help encourage those that may have had doubts in the fact that Appleseeds could be held 52 weeks out of the year no matter the weather, rain, snow, or shine. http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=11213.msg92220#msg92220 It has helped fill the lines in some area's of the country O0 .
D-fly @) Keeping the Faith
I agree Paxx, anything over about 105, it doesn't matter if it's dry or not! :) One we last year was 106 on Sat and 107 on Sun. No line shade. We're at just shy of 4000ft so the intensity of the sun is much greater than having a mile more of filter! Ready to do it again! :)
If there is some kind of "bait" we can use to get em on the line, I'm for it. But I have mixed emotions over being allowed to pick and choose to collect different patches. Once that goal is met, different conditions should have no bearing on a "Rifleman"....O.L.
Quote from: douglas34474 on May 13, 2012, 11:21:13 AM
Then why is there a "WINTERSEED" patch?
Most likely because someone thought they suffered :'( more than another and therefore they lobbied for it. After others who then decided they were entitled to be rewarded for their suffering chimed in @@), it became a reality **). Now we get the snowball effect. :slap: (pun intended) My suffering is greater than yours.
You could have just as well had an EXTREMESEED. To me that's a riflemans patch.
Do you think an Eskimo that shoots a riflemans score in his element is somehow different than a desert Indian who shoots a rifleman score in his element?
Look, I'm all for personal achievement and recognition. Go get your patch that says 40 BELOW or I'm tougher than dirt and put it on your jacket. Then you can tell others how you persevered.
Just don't diminish what we've all struggled to achieve. I love you all but I think you need a splash of COLD water.
P.S. Now , if I could just get those pesky Applecore rockers made. **)
Regards, Two Wolves
Quote from: Two Wolves on May 13, 2012, 10:13:00 AM
What's next? The sunshine patch :-[, rain patch :'( , wind and dust patch :-\? It troubles me to see seasoned riflemen complain and then lobby for these type of rewards !@#) . Why? Because there is no end to this type of dialogue :wb: . You are all slipping into that entitlement mentality where you deserve something special %).
Being an Appleseed volunteer is what makes you special. ^:)^ ^:)^
I would hope that, being riflemen, you would have a moment of clarity. &)
Different types of rifleman's patches only leads to class warfare amongst us. :shootself:
My America,my Appleseed, my mission~Two Wolves
Your just use to the marine corp, they are too poor for ribbons and patches.
As far as I know, a shooter is issued a patch once for shooting score, they don't get to come back and collect patches. This patch is not intended for instructors to collect. The patch is intended for students, first timers who fill the lines while a lot of others are waiting on cooler weather.
It don't matter.
What divides us, conquers us.
United we stand, divided we fall.
SSG Platz--- You are absolutely correct, my patch says Marines, why would I neeeeeed anything else?
Love ya man---now lets do some shoot'n and recruit'n. ~Two Wolves
Go read To Hell and Back by Audie Murphy.
If you still think you need a special patch,Thenby all means run it by Fred.
Quote from: 6MMBOB on May 13, 2012, 03:47:37 PM
Go read To Hell and Back by Audie Murphy.
If you still think you need a special patch,Thenby all means run it by Fred.
Trust me I know all about Audie Murphy, spent quite some time and a all expenses paied vacation to Iraq in 2003 with 3rd ID.
Two wolves, glad you didn't get upset by a little friendly ribbing, good to see there are a few people with a sense of humor.
~PlatzOut~
~
Why is patch collecting bad? Seriously, if you want people to come out more than once, then multiple patches aren't a bad idea. Most adults probably aren't going to care that much about collecting patches, but I could see kids really getting into it. Anything that gets kids interested is fine by me. They are going to get really good marksmanship instruction and get valuable history lessons about how our country was started. At first the motivation might be an extra patch, but I can see how the core values could start to set in and really make a difference. After all, these kids will one day grow up and vote, so anything that can be done to entice them to really learn the core principals our country was founded on shouldn't be viewed so negatively.
Hmmmm...This is turning more into more patches or less patches thing.
I would have gone for the 210 patch or no patch. My greatest Appleseed achievement so far has been 3 shots in the V at stage 4.
Let's see, the arguments against patches are:
1. They are frivolous.
2. They divide us.
3. They are not needed.
4. I don't need no stinking Patches
Point 1:
They are Frivolous. Yes they are, for some.
Point 2:
I am not getting anything on how they divide us, other than that we have different feelings about them. Obvious from this posting.
Point 3.
Nothing is needed, one can argue if Appleseed is needed. On this it is felt by most here that it (Appleseed)is. Is the Rifleman Patch needed? No. Why? It serves as nothing other than a symbol of going to an Appleseed, reaching a certain score and that score being witnessed. You still made the score.
So on point 1 and 3 I agree, no patches are needed, nor are Hats, nor rockers, nor shooting jackets, nor pins, nor tee shirts....
Point 4, personal choice, one of the reasons I am in Appleseed, leave others to their wants, wishes and accomplishments. Did you take a Rifleman patch when it was offered? That was a choice. Some people want more choices.
Quoting Two Wolves;
"SSG Platz--- You are absolutely correct, my patch says Marines, why would I neeeeeed anything else?"
Are you less of a Marine if you don't have that patch? How is it needed?
My personal opinion:
Patches are fun, something we probably should try to interject more of in Appleseed. We have a hard road in front of us, we may fail, we may succeed. Patches are not something I will quit over one way or another, I don't care strongly enough.
I belong to another organization, very different from this one, and they often have Patches for singular events, for example there would be a "Douglas, WY 2012 RBC", patch would be gotten just for attending. I think attending and getting 210, is a bit better. The organization I belong to even has ribbons / streamers for number of weekly events you have been to in one location 10 = one Yellow streamers, 100 (minimum 2 years in) is marked by a larger off color streamer. Some groups only give Patches if you pass their initiation... in our case 210, but it identifies that particular sub-group, and you as a member.
I have 5 or six patches in different a storage bins, my girlfriend has hundreds some on her jacket, most in drawers and such. The only ones she keeps on display on her event coat are memorable or important to her.
What do the different patches and streamers and such do, it tells people at a glance where you have been, how long you have been at it. It also makes for an easy conversation starter.
I also know this organization has more current and former military members then Appleseed. I have yet to hear a single remark there against Patches other then "oh, another patch".
In the military your "Ribbons and Medals" do the same. Navy Arctic and Antarctic service ribbon???
My Point:
So while I agree they are not needed and mostly frivolous, I argue that they are fun. For some people they are incentive to get off the couch and get to another Appleseed. Usually they will bring others with them, even if they do not volunteer to be an instructor.
We need to remember we are not the military and we can have some fun.
We have a long tough mission ahead of us, we must always be looking at the prize. But not be blind to the potential community building we can do as well. I hope for the Day when we can have a RWVA convention on a yearly basis and have a few thousand people show up.
We will not get there if we are just "You shot rifleman, take a hat or leave. If you are not for the mission, you are taking up line space and instructor time".
We have people sacrificing weekends with Loved ones for Appleseed.
If I can get a loved one on the line again, simply because she really wants a particular patch, I go from somewhat indifferent to "Hell Ya!!! We need more Patches". I still do not see the harm, if you don't like them, don't take them or wear them.
What I can imagine in the future:
Rule, Odd Patches only on requalification. State Patches (I love that idea), Lady Seed Patches, LBGT Seed Patches (we all know what that will look like). State environmental patches (habbobs, heat, cold, rain, drizzle, fog, nice pleasant day, wind....).
This way, Florida can have their Swamp patch at 100 degrees+ 80%+ humidity; AZ can have their Desert Rat Patch 110 degrees+... And we can have the Habanero Pepper Challenge, where you shoot a quick AQT (4 min) after eating a diced Habanero and before drinking any liquids and score a 210+. I would travel for that, and if there was a Patch for it, I would probably wear it places other than Appleseed.
If those wishes are confused with entitlement, so be it.
PaxxAZ---don't get the wrong idea about me and patches. I've got a whole motorcycle jacket covered in them.(from daze gone bye).
I am constantly searching my mind (when I'm not searching for my mind) for ideas on how to bring new people to the line and how to get a message to those people that they will hear. I like the idea of supplementary patches but we take the risk of becoming----cheezie.
All in all, this has been a fun discusion for me however it turns out. I'm still after those Applecore rockers---(Patriot Gal--are you listening?)
Regards~Two Wolves
And we can have the Habanero Pepper Challenge, where you shoot a quick AQT (4 min) after eating a diced Habanero and before drinking any liquids and score a 210+. I would travel for that, and if there was a Patch for it, I would probably wear it places other than Appleseed.
You are a genius. Design the patch and I will chop peppers. >:D
Quote from: douglas34474 on May 12, 2012, 06:33:38 PM
BAKEDAPPLESEED
Baked AS must be shot on 4/20 at 4:20. Stoners will get it. LOL.Let me explain. "Baked" is slang for being under the influence of marijuana. I would not use the term "baked"seed.
I really like the Applecore rocker O0 .
D
Quote from: Two Wolves on May 13, 2012, 09:33:57 PM
PaxxAZ---don't get the wrong idea about me and patches. I've got a whole motorcycle jacket covered in them.(from daze gone bye).
I am constantly searching my mind (when I'm not searching for my mind) for ideas on how to bring new people to the line and how to get a message to those people that they will hear. I like the idea of supplementary patches but we take the risk of becoming----cheezie.
All in all, this has been a fun discusion for me however it turns out. I'm still after those Applecore rockers---(Patriot Gal--are you listening?)
Regards~Two Wolves
Quote from: Superheat on May 13, 2012, 11:33:57 PM
Quote from: douglas34474 on May 12, 2012, 06:33:38 PM
BAKEDAPPLESEED
Baked AS must be shot on 4/20 at 4:20. Stoners will get it. LOL.
Sadly, on this one I personally would oppose until laws change and 4/19 is too important to us. But if not for that, I see no reason why not.
Quote from: 2 clicks low on May 13, 2012, 11:16:28 PM
You are a genius. Design the patch and I will chop peppers. >:D
Been called worse, and sadly I'll have to try it before making the patches, to see if it was insanity or not. Being that I am in AZ, I'll have to try it in cooler climes as dehydration is more of a concern. However, I have some silly ideas for the Patch, and connections for the making of them. I'd even pony up the money to have some made. First comes a reality check...I can take it, just not sure if 5 min, and safety can go together. Muzzle control is paramount.
Two Wolves: Cheezie...that is a legitimate risk, and I think the First Patch should be "The Rifleman" patch.
New people are a major concern for me (sadly been occupying more and more of my waking hours to the chagrin of the people who enjoy my company). This is more of a keeping the people we do have coming and keeping it in their head. When people come to an Appleseed they drink from the fire-hose but volunteering might not be up their thing, life is busy. But they still find it a good time.
What do we have for the people who have Rifleman with a .22, then a center-fire, iron sights, optics, sling-less, AK47, bolt action...they heard the strikes, agree in principle, don't want to instruct.
I still like Winterseed and Ladyseed, they have their places and needs. So, I would like people who come and Re-qualify to choose something of the flavor of the place is all. Rekindle the spirit so to say.
So I am "evolving" in my thoughts. I guess we need to think on the approach, but at the same time keep the ideas coming. I will work on the habanero Patch, but nothing till I test it and at least score sharpshooter, I want to know that Muzzle control is possible, don't want a shooter abandoning all safety for a drink of lemon-aid.
I'll also confer with my state coordinator to see if it is acceptable or not, as he is my contact to national.
The RIFLEMAN challenge - remember that oldie but goodie? 210 or better with a RACK GRADE rifle and BALL AMMO. (from the Shotgun News) That got me and my son to AS a few years back....now most of the shoots are .22 LR, very few rack grade surplus rifles, seems the whole ball game is different. Shooters keep bringing "special" rifles, give'em a "special" patch ' cause they didn't get to shoot with the A/C on.
One issue is the Association's ability to maintain control of the Association's intellectual property, including trademarks.
The "Rifleman" patch is, among other things, a registered trademark which demonstrates that the RWVA is the source of very fine instructional services.
The RWVA controls the quality of those services and controls the dissemination of those (much valued) patches.
This is why the national Association has to be involved.
As a native Floridian, I can see the rationale for a "Hotseed" (or similar) patch which emphasizes seasonal difficulty.
This is something which can be done, but the patches must be approved by and disseminated through the national organization.
I can confirm that the "Winterseed" patches come solely from the RWVA in our shoot boxes.
Quote from: PaxxAZ on May 14, 2012, 03:54:38 AM
This is more of a keeping the people we do have coming and keeping it in their head. When people come to an Appleseed they drink from the fire-hose but volunteering might not be up their thing, life is busy. But they still find it a good time.
This is really the core of what we should be concerned about, because if enough Americans feel this way - if they believe only that "Appleseed is a good time" -
if they hear the AS message, but decline to get off the couch - life is too "busy", too much to do, etc - then we will find that the Great Question - "Are there
enough Americans willing to get off the couch to save our Liberty?" will be answered - in the negative - and we can all go home and watch TV.
While I'm not against more patches, there are priorities, and the central priority of this program right now (and for the foreseeable future) should be to be "laser-focused" on 1) filling those slots on the firing line and 2) recruiting/motivating our fellow Americans to join with us in the great project which is Project Appleseed.
We need to do the first - fill the slots - to do the second - reach as many Americans as possible with the need to "get off the *&^% couch" before it's too late!
More patches is great! But filling more slots on the firing line is even greater!
How about a "Victory" patch - once we win the battle? O0
Seems to me, if we could make more progress filling those lines, we could start contemplating its design... :)
Look, bottom line is that we have to get more people involved. This is a hard job in and of it's self. If we can entertain and enlighten the participants to point where they want to return and they want to share this experience with others then the battle will be easier to win.
As for patches, being that the Rifleman Patch is trademarked for RWVA, I think that should be the coveted patch. IMO Having said that, I think it would be possible to have patches for returning shooters if that's the bait we need.
For example we could have rockers that say----220---230---240---250
If after earning your Rifleman patch you came back and shot a score of 232, you could earn (or purchase ) a 230 patch, designating you as capable of 230 or higher. There should be a full distance rocker. There should be an APPLECORE rocker.
There could be an EXTREME SEED rocker for enduring harsh environments.
As far as worrying that some folks are just to busy to volunteer or get involved with Appleseed, I say HOGWASH. If they took the time to come to an Appleseed then if we do our job as intended, those folks can and will find the time to--- if nothing else--ever-- pass out some trifolds for us or put them in a place where others will find them. We have to use these resources! Offer and encourage EVERYONE to take 5 trifolds and pass them on.
BTW, maybe there could be chevron or stripe patches that have some significant value. Just thinking.
My America, my Appleseed my mission~Two Wolves
It's a personal thing.
Why don't we go back to the original Rifleman patch and come up with several rectangular "rockers" to add under it? That might give an incentive to re-qualify. It would definitely solve the issue of different folks wanting different type of RM patches and the associated problems.
I can see the arm of my shooting jacket...OD green RM patch...blue winterseed rocker...black&red FL saunaseed...tan&orange&desertblue Sandstormseed...pink&purple Ladyseed %)...KDseed (with the MilDot recticle)...stickybrown (think Como, MS) Mudseed...red&green BakedAppleseed...cheddar-colored Cheeseseed :slap:...really, I could go on all day...
It boils down to whatever gets people to come out! I agree with the new patch and think smoakingun should be supported by all of us. When I went to my first AS, I can tell you, i was dragged there kicking and screaming. I had better things to do than lay IN 100 DEGREE HEAT with abunch of people I had never met. that was until I got there! I met those people and found the desire to be under this BEAutiful orange hat. I went to about 8 of these until i recieved my patch. i now drag any one i can find with me...so they can discover what I did. It would be nice to recognize those who make a simular sacrifice.
I earned a Rifleman patch.
It's currently affixed over the pocket of my shooting jacket.
I've got a few other patches on there, name tape, RWVA oval, April 19th rocker, but all I or anyone else needs to know is that I am a Rifleman.
Conditions do not matter.
A Rifleman adapts and overcomes.
Do I want a Winterseed patch? Sure.
Would I go for a "swelterseed" or what ever? Probably.
Not sure where I'd put'em though. There are only a couple of more patches I want for my coat.
Instructor rocker
Boot Camp rocker
Perhaps even a Shoot Boss rocker.
And on the back I've considered adding a couple in tribute to my grandfathers for their service. 8th Armored and 14th Armored.
I'm proud of my patch.
But I only need one Rifleman patch as I'm only one Rifleman.
I'm more proud of my orange hat which if I ever get around to it will have a few dates inked on the bill. The date I qualified and took a hat, the date I passed PC1, PC2, PC3(TBA), and so on. And most importantly the date I "retire" the orange and take a red.
Those hats denote many Riflemen.
Those I've helped forge.
Just my 2¢
Well, I can't speak for the rest of the country, but here in Fl. business seems to be booming! We have already added two new venues this year. We have added 8 to 10 IIT's in the last 6 months. We have done at least one libraryseed this year, and are working on more. We are working on another military shoot. We work gun shows and pass out tri folds and flyers by the case. I do not believe we have shirked our duties here in Fl. There seems to be a conception here that a new patch is for collecting or re-qualifing. That is not the intent, nor is it the way I have seen appleseed work. A shooter is rewarded a patch for acomplishing what a relatively few citizens have. So why is it a negative to recognize those who did it when it was hard?
Fred mentioned a laser-like focus, but if appleseed has taught me anything it is that in order to get stuff done, we have to be able to do many things, often at the same time.
I think too that I should mention that I do not intend the organization to fund this patch, it will come out of my pocket.
I know the mission should be everything, but IMHO, what ever it takes to get people on the line. If that's a patch for those that fired as they have for those that froze, so be it.
O.K. ready or not Here I post!
New Patches are all fine and well,
for the shooters who do not have a patch.
As for the instructors, you have your patch is that not good enough?
Instructors, I reiterate,you have your patch this would not be for you anyway!
One patch as earned,no matter the conditions.
This may stir up things a little, But be it a Patch or a Rocker it is ALL the same. It is Just a piece of Cloth!
But it is an Achievement Award!
The idea is to GET the New and Returning Student to the LINE!
So They can learn to use any Rifle effectively!
So that They can learn to Honor Our Forefather's!
So They can learn Why the Bill of Rights is So Important!
Then and Only then can We the People! can start baling faster! :sb:
This is a Patch, Rocker, Rifle, or Target, There are Many like it, But this one is Mine!
Sly223 hit it on the head. Patches are for the student who cuts the score the first time. I am not looking to change my patch, I earned my patch in a wind and rain storm when it was 40 degrees outside. My patch is my mark to the appleseed community that I am part of the family. A special patch says no less. It does indicate that the shooter did it under a certain set of conditions in a certain place. It is no different than a shell back card(navy thing) or a challenge coin(army thing) these things are earned and show the shooter persevered when others wouldn't. When the heat and humidity are high, we don't issue tons of patches, I just think I should do something to recognize those who do. This patch is not intended to be a draw to appleseed. It is not an advertising gimmic. This patch will not fill the lines. It is just a symbol,
If getting people to grasp then own their heritage to the point they get off the couch and stay off is really the thrust of what AS is all about and the rifle marksmanship is just the hook to get them to an event then why is there such an emphasis on patches?
Let's face the truth. If we need more patches to bring new and old shooters to the program-----we've FAILED!
Another truth---- None of us got involved in this program by the lure of another patch.
The shooting part of an Appleseed is designed around teaching the student how to take charge of his mind and his body. Mostly his mind. There is an awakening that the student has as he learns these skills.
It was the awakening of my mind, my soul, my spirit that inspired me to get involved in Appleseed. The desire to help others have this epiphany is what feeds my soul.
The hook needs not to be about another patch. If it is, you'll soon run out of patches.
~Two Wolves
Then why the Winterseed patch?
Tru tenacity, I don't know that when I suggested a new patch there would be so much disagreement. It does seem to me that some folks are not reading what I am saying about the patch. It has nothing to do with filling the lines. Nothing to do with patch collecting. The patch is for new shooters who shoot score under a specific set of circumstances. My goal is to recognize those who persevere and overcome those circumstances. Appleseed is no longer the hairy legged man club it was in the beginning. Gone are the days of having primarily surplus centerfires and ball ammo on the line. Here are the days of kids and single moms. A lot of people show up Saturday and do not return on Sunday because of the hbat. This patch is for those who do
Quote from: douglas34474 on May 15, 2012, 12:59:46 PM
Then why the Winterseed patch?
About Year 3 of the program we suddenly realized that, for practical purposes, the AS sched went "dead" in Dec, Jan, Feb and, often - March.
There were almost no AS scheduled in those months - and the "Appleseed Year" started, not in Jan, but in late March (sometimes) or early April (more often).
We also realized that AS will not be successful working only two-thirds of the year (sometimes, three-fourths). We can't afford to throw away any part of the year, to write it off, to sit back and relax - if we are going to be successful.
The WinterSeed Patch was an effort to encourage more AS in the traditional "winter" months.
While I don't have any stats, I have a gut feeling the patch by itself was not enough to do what we hoped it would do. It will take the dedicated efforts of State Coordinators, Shoot Bosses, and every other volunteer to seize opportunities to do more AS in the months where ranges usually have less use and are more open to AS events.
I look on the WinterSeed Patch as a one-time deal. We can do a "SummerSeed Patch", which then takes us down a road we may not want to go down, because there will be demands for a "foul weather" RB, a "rain" RB, a "desert" RB, a "tornado" RB, etc etc.
And every one of these demands will be made by someone who will not take "No" for an answer, and everyone of them will generate post after post, page after page - volunteer time which would be better spent on "filling the lines".
Then, there will be demands for "senior" RBs (ever see an 80-yr old try to do transitions - he's got a lot of grit - shouldn't we recognize that, with a special patch?), "handicapped" RBs (surely they face and persist with issues the rest of us do not face, right? 'Extra effort' deserves extra recognition, right?).
What about a "family" RB? Shouldn't a family which is 100% riflemen be awarded a special badge? I don't know, but at some point I suggest even the most dedicated patch-collector will cry, "Enough!" And we hand our critics yet another tool to beat us with - "Those Appleseeders? Huh! Just a bunch of patch collectors!"
I suggest we stay focused on the absolutely critical task of filling all those empty slots on the firing lines - and adding more AS events to our calendar - the real work in the program.
If we must use a new patch to coax them back to the line, I think maybe they didn't get the message the first visit. Possibly we need to put as much concern and thought into our benedictions as we have patches.
YHJ
Speaking of benedictions I wish it were possible to read the benedictions of others. I know that many of you are well versed and can speak well and I believe reading these would help me and others in our search for words.
~Two Wolves
Oh, I am thinking about something you might like. One of the unimplemented buttons on the fledgling Appleseed iOS app is labeled "Podcasts." Almost all of us are carrying around full-featured video recorders nowadays. >:D Of course it should be something available on the web site as well and used for everything from strikes to DOM to presentations. One thing I have learned traveling around so far is that everyone does it differently and some peoples presentations make more sense to some people than others. We should be sharing and learning from all of the other instructors as much as we can. If someone wants more patches I would suggest monthly (voted?) awards for best presentations. >:D
Quote from: Two Wolves on May 15, 2012, 03:27:13 PM
Speaking of benedictions I wish it were possible to read the benedictions of others. I know that many of you are well versed and can speak well and I believe reading these would help me and others in our search for words.
~Two Wolves
Quote from: Two Wolves on May 15, 2012, 03:27:13 PM
Speaking of benedictions I wish it were possible to read the benedictions of others. I know that many of you are well versed and can speak well and I believe reading these would help me and others in our search for words.
~Two Wolves
Mine sure could use improvment . thanx for the suggestion 2 wolves --Semper fidelis Sir
Quote from: Two Wolves on May 15, 2012, 03:27:13 PM
Speaking of benedictions I wish it were possible to read the benedictions of others. I know that many of you are well versed and can speak well and I believe reading these would help me and others in our search for words.
~Two Wolves
1. Take winterseed patch
2. Turn upside down
3. Spray paint red
4. Now icicles are flames
Problem solved.
The patch I have is the patch I received when I shot a rifleman's score, it is OD, it is in my drawer (OK, OK me DESK drawer), I do not need another.
Quote from: dragit on May 15, 2012, 04:47:17 PM
The patch I have is the patch I received when I shot a rifleman's score, it is OD, it is in my drawer, I do not need another.
This.
Although you might consider wearing it....
:P
Maybe I just see things too differently. In the navy, I wore a crow on my sleeve, a dog bowl on my head and dungarees to work. Every sailor was my shipmate, but on the ball cap hanging above my bench, and therocker on the sleeve of my dress uniforms was the name of my ship. When in port somewhere, any sailor would lend a hand, but if that sailor wore the same rocker, served on the same crew, the bond was tighter. You go the extra mile when your lives truely depend on one another. That may be another reason I have persued the patch. To give folks that feeling that they are now part of something bigger. A generic rifleman patch is fine, but the organization is impersonal, maybe even etherial, but a patch unique to your ship indicates something closer.
If fred says no then I will take the no, it is his show afterall. I am not one to argue with the folks in charge.
I reckon if I had a generic riflemans patch #) I would put it in dragit's drawers too. **)
Sorry Tommy, just couldn't resist ~Two Wolves
many sportsmans clubs have button awards ,theses awards are pins and maybe 3/8 " diameter .
i have seen several sportsman take great pride in being awarded a button for the biggest fish or for drilling an animal of a certain size whatever . Nice thing about buttons is they take up little space .
Possibly buttons could be awarded a in place of a patch and individual states or even events could request from national the authority to issue buttons . Buttons could worn on the standard RM patch .
not sure who could make buttons for AS , but it may be an alternative to a patch .
Quote from: yellowhousejake on May 15, 2012, 03:15:32 PM
If we must use a new patch to coax them back to the line, I think maybe they didn't get the message the first visit. Possibly we need to put as much concern and thought into our benedictions as we have patches.
YHJ
I think YHJ nailed it. Period. But, the fact remains that there are people who are simply there to shoot. Maybe if we can give them more patches, they'll keep coming back, and each time they come back, we get another chance to impress upon them the situation.
Quote from: dragit on May 15, 2012, 04:47:17 PM
The patch I have is the patch I received when I shot a rifleman's score, it is OD, it is in my drawer, I do not need another.
I'm not gonna touch that one with a ten foot pole. **) **) **) **)
I got one of the purple patches. Never did put it on my jacket. I couldn't ever decide which jacket to put it on. So it's here on the shelf next to my computer. I know I got it and I probably set an Appleseed record for the number of shoots it took me to get it. I'm right at 210 and I played heck to break that. So I'm proud of it.
Quote from: scuzzy on May 15, 2012, 08:13:52 PM
I know I got it and I probably set an Appleseed record for the number of shoots it took me to get it. I'm right at 210 and I played heck to break that. So I'm proud of it.
You were a rifleman long before you hit 210 Scuzzy. O0
YHJ
You were a rifleman long before you hit 210 Scuzzy. O0
YHJ
I'll second that! ^:)^
TW
Quote from: Fred on May 15, 2012, 02:56:22 PM
About Year 3 of the program we suddenly realized that, for practical purposes, the AS sched went "dead" in Dec, Jan, Feb and, often - March.
We see somewhat of the same problem in Arizona - we lose a lot of momentum over June/July/August, and while I agree that there are legitimate safety concerns over trying to keep everyone focused and healthy over two full days of exposure to 110+, I don't see it as insurmountable given the proper precautions - if there are folks willing to shoot in that heat, I'm willing to instruct in it.
While I'm solidly in the "don't need any special patch 'cos a Rifleman's a Rifleman" camp, I *was* planning something extra for any new Riflemen at our June shoot this year in Buckeye. Something like a blazing sun hat/lapel pin or similar - and I'll make it clear that the extra is not any kind of official Appleseed thing, but is just a personal gift from myself and the other instructors for recognition of their perseverance in becoming a Rifleman through some decidedly unpleasant and trying conditions. A Rifleman is still a Rifleman regardless, but they showed up to shoot in the furnace instead of waiting for better conditions and I'd like to make sure they know that their instructors appreciate that.
O.k. Smoake,
You have my full endorsement,
fwiw,
if there is a winter seed there should be a Summer seed.
No one can tell me dealing with freezing is worse than 90degrees with 90% humidity.
I dropped down in the cold and hit a 212, later that same summer i dropped down and it took everything I had to hit 197,after a laugh at my expense,Two other instructors missed the mark my SC shot the same as I.
I am not ashamed of not being able to hit score that day there were a lot of other factors,but the heat could not be beat!
Just one guy talking, but why don't you keep with the status quo and call it a Summer seed, I just say that because the one we already have is called winterseed, so it's not like it's called icecicle seed or freezer seed. And jus keep it simple and say for anything over 100, or even 110 degrees. Might help get it passed up the chain.
~PlatzOut~
I am a sticker !@#$% so it only gos to say i like patches. PaxxAZ I need my shootong jacket to save my elbows and absorb recoil lol. and Two Wolves if you still have patches on your jacket from days gone by your supposed to give them back when (days go by)
Please forgive my earlier post being humorous -:) about the different patches. We just finished a shoot where it got up to 112° on Saturday and was more than 102° all day Sunday. We had 0 no-shows either day. We had to adapt to the heat by taking mandatory water breaks. But not one of these intrepid souls left early and they actually showed marked increase in the Redcoats, even the young teen with a brand new 10/22 with no sling and buckhorn sights. I wish now that I had something to give them for their persistence and moxie.
Charlie
Did anyone score?
We had 3 of 16 shoot RM, each at least twice. One of them after shooting RM twice went over to the 100 yd range to shoot his AR left his last AQT still on the target backer. I was working with another student and noticed how good it was so I took it back and scored it, 231!
We also had 4 others that were scoring from 190 to 208.
One thing that I didn't expect but we had a lot of bad ammo. Normally we get about 10 bad rounds in our live round bucket, but this weekend we had about 50. I'm not usre if it was the heat or bad batches, but there were diferent types in the bucket.
My first AS it was about 100 degees my second was in the middle of a tropical storm don't know what conditions mother nature will throw at us I just want to EARN a patch that says Rifleman on it any color or style will do fine because I will know I EARNED the right to wear it then I can put on the orange hat and start EARNING my red hat while carrying on this noble cause I am a simple man
Here is my input.. SAUNASEED. The temps themselves aren't too bad, but the vapor coming off of the wet, steamy grassy ground.. :)
Sorry Brotha, but your a day late and a donut short on this thread, this patch has been made and is being fielded in Fl. Right now.
~PlatzOut~