On various forums, I see people boasting about moa & sub moa 5-shot group accurracy, from bench rests. I almost never see anyone posting their #'s using a GI-type sling, so I thought I'd ask:
Assuming no wind & 100 yd shooting, with a theoretical rifle & ammo setup capable of shooting 0 moa(ie a perfect rifle), from the prone position & using a GI sling, with practice what kind of accuracy can I hope to achieve? I know we shoot for 4 moa at appleseed, but is consistently shooting 2 moa 5-shot groups realistic? 1.5 moa? I'd like to set a goal for myself, but don't want it to be impossible or too easy.
Thanks!
--Varun
I can shoot around 2.5 inches at 100 yards with a ten shot group open sighted. I prefer using ten shot groups when I can, just for greater challenge. Keep in mind though, this is with a single-shot target rifle, a shooting coat, and a sling so tight it makes your arm go numb.
True field positions, with my AR? Around 6 MOA.
So, depends on your equipment and skill level.
With a reasonably customized rifle, I would say 2 MOA is a fine goal to strive for. It'll take time. But doesn't everything worth doing?
With a few years of practice you would shoot sub-moa if you want to at 100 yards in the prone with a GI sling or the 1903 sling and iron sights. Every year at Camp Perry there are a number of shooters that clean the 600 yard 10 ring with an AR match grade service rifle with a 1903 sling or a GI sling in the prone position and that is with wind coming off of the lake. The 600 yard target 10 ring is 2 MOA. There are a number of instructors and shooters in appleseed that can shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards in the prone with a sling and iron sights or a scope. It all depends on the shooter and the day.
Wow. I thought 1 moa was only achievable with a bench rest! This is really encouraging. Is practice enough for achieving this, or are these 1moa shooters using advanced techniques & if so, where can I learn about them?
Thanks,
Varun
First practice alot at 25 yards using the six steps and focus on your NPOA like you learned in your first appleseed, every single step and movement must be precisely the same each time. There are alot of books and videos about it as well as teams, coaches and courses. But, before all of that, keep focusing on what you learned at Apppleseed and keep practicing, as time goes by your groups will continue to get smaller, your body will be trained more efficiently, your level of concentration, confidence, ability to focus will increase and your vision will become more accustom to what it must do. So for the best way to get there right now-stick with Appleseed and practice alot live fire and dry fire. Be the little appleseeder that could and climb the hill.
At 100 yards you have all of the techniques you need. What you need next is practice and lots of it. The good news is yes, you can shoot 1moa or less depending on your dedication and to some extent your equipment.
DO NOT get into the equipment race trap. Perfect shooting requires perfect practice. Drill your SHFs, Six Steps etc til you get absolutely everything possible from your current rifle before you start the quest for the Holy Grail of marksmanship.
Personally 2moa is a great goal. Rack grade equipment and ball ammo are fully capable of achieving that all day long, the rifles and ammo are designed to that standard in fact. Some will even shoot better than 2moa.
One last thing, stay off of the bench unless you are rough sighting in or working up loads. After all, you can't carry a bench into the field with you.
Quote from: The Almighty Ram on May 09, 2012, 04:27:09 PM
Wow. I thought 1 moa was only achievable with a bench rest! This is really encouraging. Is practice enough for achieving this, or are these 1moa shooters using advanced techniques & if so, where can I learn about them?
Thanks,
Varun
dryfire
Quote from: The Almighty Ram on May 09, 2012, 04:27:09 PM
Wow. I thought 1 moa was only achievable with a bench rest! This is really encouraging. Is practice enough for achieving this, or are these 1moa shooters using advanced techniques & if so, where can I learn about them?
Thanks,
Varun
http://www.amazon.com/Highpower-Rifle-G-David-Tubb/dp/0962692530/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336598254&sr=8-1
High Power Rifle, by David Tubb.
Funny thing is, it reads just like you went to an Appleseed. ;D It blew me away how so many High Power shooters recommended this book to me when I started High Power, only to find out that I already knew about 75% of the contents as an RWVA instructor.
Yes, there's more tricks/secrets/techniques in this than in an Appleseed. I dunno about an RBC... that might cover more of the things in this book. Or an RBC might not.
I did modify my seated technique after reading this. I've always had problems with seated, and was shooting mid-to-high 80's prior to seeing this book. After some modifications I picked up from it and applied (that are not Appleseed techniques), I am shooting mid 90's on seated.
But I'll tell you this: I shoot about 2MOA prone, slung, rapid... sometimes less. Depending on variations in sun lighting and wind (lights-up-sights-up, am I facing north with the sun at my back or south with the sun casting a shadow over the target, crosswind value, etc), or angle from firing line to target (each range is slightly different), my zero changes a minute or two, resulting in being slightly off-center. I typically kiss the 10/9 ring line with 2-3 X's and a mid 90's score on my 300 yard rapid prone.
There are service rifle competitors here in AZ in High Power that regularly clean the 600 yard slowfire stage. 10 or more X's in a 20 shot string, the remainder are 10's. The X ring is 1MOA at 600 yards. The 10 ring is 2MOA. They're about 1.25 to 1.5 MOA shooters from prone. If you gave them 5 rounds in a mag and let them shoot them all without breaking position, they'd give you a sub-MOA group from prone slung at 600.
I shot several sub MOA groups at Red Brush on New Year's Eve with Mudcat's Savage MarkII. I had at least one five round group that was under 1/4" at 25 yards and a few three shot groups on Stage 4 that were sub MOA.
I have fired 5 round groups with my standard Rock River AR and irons that were under 2MOA at 100 yards. I don't do it every time, but when I have enough free time away from Appleseed it happens often enough.
I think many rifles are far mroe accurate than people give them credit for. It isn't the hardware, its the software. I was recently told that some target rifles the 4-H kids in my county use were no good but HQ and Techres laid down and shot 2 MOA groups with them with irons have never touched either rifle before. All of the above was done with modest ammo. Nothing special.
Yup, look at the target sizes used in CMP Service Rifle competition. The 600yd target has a 6" X ring and a 12" 10 ring. Top shooters will score in the 190's (20 round course of fire) with a respectable X count. Keep in mind that they are having to call the wind at that distance as well, but are also using a tight sling, shooting coat, and probably a hat with blinders.
The rifles they use are match tuned, but not as specialized as one might think. Service rifle competition requires a 4.5# minimum trigger pull and that the external appearance of the rifle match a US Army issue rifle. So from a few feet away it looks just like a M16A2 (AR's are probably the most popular now, but M1A's, Garands and 1903's are used as well), but actually has a free floated match barrel, small aperture rear sight and is probably weighted to 12-18# to stabilize offhand shooting. New list price for a Service Rifle spec AR starts in the $1200-1500 range, just to show that these rifles are not out of sight.
Personally, I've done 2-3 MOA with my Finn M39 and PPU ammo and 1-2 with my NM AR15 using PPU match ammo. The fun part is I know I can do better, just more practice O0
Quote from: SPQR on May 09, 2012, 06:43:51 PM
I shot several sub MOA groups at Red Brush on New Year's Eve with Mudcat's Savage MarkII. I had at least one five round group that was under 1/4" at 25 yards and a few three shot groups on Stage 4 that were sub MOA.
I have fired 5 round groups with my standard Rock River AR and irons that were under 2MOA at 100 yards. I don't do it every time, but when I have enough free time away from Appleseed it happens often enough.
I think many rifles are far mroe accurate than people give them credit for. It isn't the hardware, its the software. I was recently told that some target rifles the 4-H kids in my county use were no good but HQ and Techres laid down and shot 2 MOA groups with them with irons have never touched either rifle before. All of the above was done with modest ammo. Nothing special.
Yeah but that rifle has Mudcat MOJO all over it, so any scores shot with it can't be credited to someone else when they use it.
Thanks for the replies everyone. This is great information.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much(how many rounds/time spent per week) these National Match guys practice in order to be able to shoot as well we they do?
--Varun
Alot!!! But practice and dry fire 4 days a week and go to more Appleseeds for now. Good luck. Dry firing can be key. Gary Anderson had no money for ammo or an awesome rifle, but he dry fired for hours and hours. It works.
Well, this is a tough one to give a truthful answer to.
There are no perfect rifles, perfect ammo or perfect anything when you're talking shooting.
So, you're really asking about reasonable expectations of a person shooting prone using a sling, with what I'll call "upper end" equipment.
That USGI sling is more than adequate to allow you to shoot good groups.
I'd say, given top quality match grade ammo, in a competition grade rifle, with good optics, groups under 1 MOA are certainly achievable. How far under 1 MOA is tough to say.
I have had rifles that were known to shoot .1 MOA (yes, that's 1/10 MOA) groups from the bench. Can't say I'd want to shoot them from prone with a sling, they were heavy (10 1/2 and 13 1/2 pounds) and balanced wrong for prone, not to mention high power optics (24X and up). Bolt action, 22 PPC or 219 Donaldson Wasp were the calibers. A little more power than a 223. 6X scope and 10 pounds, and a bigger cartridge (308 or so), the groups grow to about 1/4-1/3 MOA from the bench. They probably could be kept to about 1/2 to 3/4 MOA prone with a real good shooter.
Shooter08 May 2011---M1Garand regular iron sights, regular ball ammo at 100yds 8 shots. This was at the New Philly shoot in May 2011. 08 is not a competition shooter nor does he spend a lot of time at the range. He applies the skill set...
I noticed the practice comments.
I quit competing at Bench Rest matches due to cost.
Not the cost of travel, match fees or anything spent that day.
Because of the cost of practice. Ammo components and barrel wear mostly. Not to mention the time involved.
Extreme accuracy isn't cheap. Accurate rifles are up there but not that bad. The practice cost though is the real gotcha.
Dry firing is very important, but does little for your wind and weather doping skills.
My suggestion?
Practice with a 22, get yourself shooting in the 240's at Appleseeds, and get to some events that have KD. That will get you started.
You can also learn a lot shooting a 22 at 100 yards.
Next time you are at Waterman, talk to George 63. He is the LBOTG and if not instructing can be found lying on the 600 yd range punching out 10's & X's.
2cl
There have been a couple occasions where I've shot ~1 moa groups(3+ consecutive shots) with a Poly M14s - Syn stock - 7.62 RG...
This is unusual for me - generally I can only get down to about 3 moa, admittedly I don't practice enough.
But it can be done.
Realistically, start with 4 moa. Once you can hit that practice until you're a 3 moa shooter, then 2 and so on. You do get to a point where your heartbeat will actually become an issue, work with it.
1 moa is ultimately probably the most realistic - though I'm sure you can beat it - that allows you to let your front sight move the width of a piece of paper in any given direction. You'd better have some serious NPOA for that.
Quote from: Ratchett on May 09, 2012, 08:01:35 PM
Shooter08 May 2011---M1Garand regular iron sights, regular ball ammo at 100yds 8 shots. This was at the New Philly shoot in May 2011. 08 is not a competition shooter nor does he spend a lot of time at the range. He applies the skill set...
Nice!
(http://pixelhammer.com/appleseed/NewPhillyJun11/NPhillyMay1151.jpg)
I'm going to sound like a real party crasher here, but since you're a newbie, perhaps we can "save" you before you get too far gone.
Instead of investing all that time, energy and effort into becoming a sub-moa shooter.... why not invest it in saving the country?
I hear so many folks talk about shooting 2 moa or sub-moa or whatever. What we ought to be hearing them talk about is "I taught 2,000 people to shoot 4 moa." And until we start hearing more of that, I could care less how many "high masters" we have here on our forum.
Any shooting sport or discipline is great. We need it. We need more of it. But the unique opportunity we have here in Appleseed you won't find in those other "sports." Perhaps with 4H or the Scouts or even if you go to the NRA or CMP matches you'll have a chance to "seed" some folks. But I can almost guarantee you the opportunity you have here you won't get somewhere else.
Please, take advantage of it.
I know it's exciting to get involved and really be "accurate." But what good is accuracy if (and I'm trying not to be political here) the ship sinks?
I agree. My philosophy is to be accurate enough for any practical application. If I can shoot 1 moa without breaking the bank, that's great, but I'm more interested in setting a realistic goal & find more satisfaction in taking something not-so-accurate(like an AK, or a surplus mosin) and maximizing its potential. I figure this route will save me a lot of money in the long run!
For now I'll start at 25 yds & aim for 3 moa. We'll see what happens after that! :--- :~ :~ :~
Edit: Seeing that group with the garand gets my adrenaline pumping! Awesome shooting!! :bow:
Quote from: slim on May 09, 2012, 09:39:11 PM
I'm going to sound like a real party crasher here, but since you're a newbie, perhaps we can "save" you before you get too far gone.
Instead of investing all that time, energy and effort into becoming a sub-moa shooter.... why not invest it in saving the country?
:bow: O0
Slim,
You're :DH: I already drafted him. See the AAR for Waterman.
2cl
Quote from: 2 clicks low on May 09, 2012, 10:18:04 PM
Slim,
You're :DH: I already drafted him. See the AAR for Waterman.
2cl
Link please.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=29489.msg221206#msg221206
It's official. I"m filling out the paperwork tonight.
--Varun
Quote from: The Almighty Ram on May 10, 2012, 12:10:01 AM
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=29489.msg221206#msg221206
It's official. I"m filling out the paperwork tonight.
--Varun
Thanks for stepping up and taking an orange hat. ..:.. ..:..
- ShadowMan
This has been a great and productive discussion! O0
But, whenever a discussion wanders, it's a good thing to have a look back to the original question. &)
If the rifle and ammunition were perfect, how small a group could a really good shooter with normal vision achieve from prone position, with loop sling and peep sights, using NPOA and executing the six steps as well as humanly possible?
Consensus answer: Somewhat smaller than 1 MOA.
And I've seen shooters put five shots fairly regularly WELL within our drill squares (I'm talking about all the .30-caliber holes totally within the black, with some to spare), making extreme spread center-to-center of the five holes right at a half-inch. That's 2 MOA, and I've seen it done with iron-sighted rifles and non-match ammo.
Shooters to the line! :~ :~ :~
Quote from: The Almighty Ram on May 10, 2012, 12:10:01 AM
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=29489.msg221206#msg221206
It's official. I"m filling out the paperwork tonight.
--Varun
That changes everything. Your job now is not to shoot better, it's to find more instructors. At this point in the game we need to be excellent marksmanship instructors, tellers of our nations history, and role models as citizens. But when it all gets peeled away, when the smoke clears and the targets are all scored, everything leads up to the benediction. The benediction is why we are here and it is why we exist, Appleseeds, school presentations, Libraryseeds, everything leads up to the benediction. That is the message we are delivering.
We need more folks hearing the benediction to save the country, which takes more events, which requires more instructors. Fred has a great analogy about training the trainers and it is where we are now in the program.
Spend your energies finding more folks who feel like we do, get hats on them, get them trained, and get them finding more folks. Eventually everyone in the country will have heard the message, or been heard speaking it. That is the target you should be scoring, and it is the only one that matters.
Welcome aboard!
Yellowhousejake
If the man wants to shoot better AND participate in the goals of Appleseed PLEASE do not discourage him.
Both can be accomplished. Competitive shooting needs to be propagated. Appleseeders need to be involved.
Have you ever heard of a flanking maneuver?
People will work to keep their passions alive and growing.
Don't get tunnel vision......
Turbo
Absolutely correct, jrturbo.
ShadowMan, thanks for stepping up.
I think improving your skills is a great thing to do, no doubt about it. You will almost certainly learn things that will help your instruction techniques. At a minimum, you will prove to yourself that the program works.
I mentioned cost, because there does come a time when the cost to make improvement can seem overwhelming. There are thresholds you will hit that require you to spend significantly more to improve.
You simply can't consistently shoot 3 MOA with 4-5 MOA ammo. You can't consistently shoot 2 MOA with a 4 MOA rifle. The key word there is consistently, as you can do those things occasionally, just not consistently.
Until your skills mandate it, staying with reasonable ammo/equipment is good, especially the ammo. You will keep your costs down, allowing more practice to build your skills. Occasional use of top quality ammo to check your skills is OK still. When you can usually out shoot your ammo, it's time to upgrade. Same thing with equipment.
I pretty much agree with jrturbo and Nickle. Nothing wrong with learning how to shoot better. Plus, won't that make us better instructors.
Ram, that is a pretty awesome avatar. I might be stealing that arrangement in the future! ;D
Not necessarily.
If you are a sub MOA shooter and you cannot connect with students, deliver sound PoI, and help folks understand why they need to become active in civics then you won't be much of an Appleseed instructor. You will just be a sub MOA shooter.
Teaching is only 20% content knowledge. By far the greater part of teaching is the ability to build relationships with the students. If you can shoot a 230 it won't mean anything to a soccer mom on Saturday morning.
Competitive shooting does need to be propagated, and we need more gun ranges, but being a better competitive shooter only has an oblique effect in your ability as a teacher. Gary Anderson, a guy many would consider the nation's best competitive shooter, understood this and that is why he called Bill Pullum the best marksmanship instructor in the world. Pullum, who was known as an average competitive shooter ( I heard one guy say that he used to call himself "Alsoran" in the early days), believed that the psychological aspect of shooting was the greater part and even considered it a higher ratio than I do (90%). In fact, his book "Position Rifle Shooting", which he claims is for the competition shooter, is easily three quarters about psychology. That said, our content knowledge about positions, equipment, and ammunition holds only a marginal value to us as coaches and teachers compared with our ability to relate to the psychology of the student.
As an organization we can all be better shooters. It never hurts to improve oneself. As and organization of instructors, though, it always surprises me a little bit that I never read a post about someone asking one of their old teachers that had some ability what their secret was. We don't have enough conversations about time management. We don't have enough conversations about classroom management. We don't have enough conversations about the effect strict safety has on the attention span, mood, and confidence of a student. We don't have enough conversations about what it was that an old teacher did that inspired you. If we want to be better teachers we should ask great teachers how they got good. It would probably help to ask some folks who don't teach marksmanship and then compare it to ourselves.
We aren't a Marksmanship organization. We are a Citizenship organization with a durn good marksmanship component.
Great points, all. I personally believe it's possible to do both; pursue marksmanship as well as spread the word, and while being competent, but poor at communication is not a good thing, being good at both can really "wow" a student and have them talking about appleseed with all of their friends.
Quote from: Roland on May 10, 2012, 07:09:35 PM
I pretty much agree with jrturbo and Nickle. Nothing wrong with learning how to shoot better. Plus, won't that make us better instructors.
Ram, that is a pretty awesome avatar. I might be stealing that arrangement in the future! ;D
Thanks! This was actually part of a video I took with my phone at the range to see if I was flinching with my S&W 629 44 magnum. I paused the video & thought that it'd make a pretty cool picture! :cool2:
Your avatar's quite awesome too, being the cover to one of my favorite books of all time. The Deliverator would be proud! My signature is a quotation from Snow Crash, you might recognize.
If you are consistently making the Red Coat bucket shot, you're doing about 3 MOA by 4 MOA. Bear in mind that accuracy is a slightly different critter than precision. Precision is group size, accuracy is hitting what you are aiming at.
Consistently hitting the proverbial 7 inch square at 250 yards would be about 2.8 MOA. IMHO, that would be an excellent, and reasonably attainable goal for anyone willing to apply what Appleseed teaches.
NH
I can't speak to the exact MOA, but maybe "minute of steel"...we had a most excellent KD in Elbert County, GA a couple of weeks ago. Of several shooters in the group of some 20+, the first, Kestak, put 5 of 5 on steel at 600 yds. When you walk downrange and look back at your vehicle, just the idea of hitting the vehicle appears daunting. "Prone" steel silhouette, no less. You know you've found the men and women who know very well what they are about who can do this, and be humble, and still persevere to be better.