I had a shooter the other day that arrived with an AR15 outfitted with a combination of Troy and Magpul parts. I'm sure the build quality lived up to both companies' reputation, but they posed some challenges. Here's what my fellow instructors and I did, feel free to chime in with a solution we didn't come up with.
Troy two-point tactical sling
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/bobbyone64/IMG_20120429_110508.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/bobbyone64/IMG_20120429_110526.jpg)
Challenge 1: This sling has a length of bungee strap between the quick release buckle and the forward sling swivel. The bungee material was some quality stuff, such that even when the shooter got it tight before slinging up, it still had too much stretch to relax in to.
Solution 1: The bungee is joined to the standard webbing with a D-ring that is held shut with some sort of plastic keeper. Field removal is not recommended. We bypassed the bungee by unthreading the strap from the H-buckle near the sling swivel and reattaching it through the D-ring, leaving the bungee in a loop. You can just see the loop at the forward swivel in the photo.
Challenge 2: The shooter had the back of the sling connected directly to the buttstock of the rifle through a slot midway up the buttplate. He was able to start to relax into the sling with it running behind the hand, into the inside of the armpit, around the outside of the shoulder and behind the neck. This interfered with getting the rifle into the shoulder pocket while in prone, causing neck discomfort and instability in the support arm.
Solution 2: Instead of letting the sling ride behind the neck as it was designed, we had him take his head out of the loop. The sling then rode behind the hand into the inside of the armpit, wrapped around the top of the bicep, and passed under the chin. This made a hybrid of the loop and hasty sling that let the rifle settle lower and resulted in a much more stable position.
Troy DOA flip up rear sight
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/bobbyone64/IMG_20120429_161253.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/bobbyone64/IMG_20120429_161230.jpg)
Challenge: Troy has a real miss with this one. It looks great on the website, which shows the sight picture against a silhouette an estimated 30m away. For accuracy at distance, though, the close range aperture is way too big to consistently center the front sight. The long range aperture is better, but has a notch at the top that renders what should be an ok peep into an incomplete and formless semicircle at normal eye relief.
Solution: I got nothing. An instructor loaned the shooter a different flip up rear sight with a more traditional shape of aperture. This translated into an immediate 3moa reduction in group size.
If it is possible to shoot 4MOA with a nagant, SKS, CZ 455, etc all with open sights, I would think that it is possible to shoot 4MOA with these sights. Carbines present challenges even with aperture sights due to a short sight radius. They are probably not the best sight for someone struggling to make Rifleman for the first time but an experienced Rifleman should be able to make them work. Collapsible carbine stocks make it difficult to get a good cheek weld. Trying to learn sling use with a less than ideal sling can be frustrating.
My point is that all of the blame for the large groups did not lie with these sights.
They can work just as well as the traditional round aperture, just take some practice and, in some cases, re-learning how to use 'em. I ran 'em for a while on my issued M4 and out to 500 was no problem. I don't particularly LIKE them, but they work fine.
RS
Glad to see this gentleman went to you....I was reading a thread on M4carbine.net and suggested he attend an appleseed to help him learn fundamentals. In that thread one of the posters suggested that a diamond sight was exactly the best for starting out with....confirmed by you. I'll post a link to the thread but the shooter seemed satisfied with the weekend especially after the rear sight exchange.
I had a shooter who came with a Vickers sling this last weekend and instead of exchanging it we worked together to make it work. Result was he learned to get the most out of it and was shooting awesome groups !
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=103559
Tatical slings are good for weapons retention and kicking in doors but seeing how we don't wear are rifles all day or kick in any doors at an Appleseed I would have just striped the sling off and zip tied a loaner sling on, as far as the sights, they are defanetly not stock, and there is no way for you to know and be familure with every kind of variation of sight apitures on the market. I feel that at some point the individual has to be burdened with even the smallest amount of responsibility to be familure with the weapons system that they personally owne. But I am not surprised I use to run into joes all the time that had no idea how to use their rifle except bullets come out the front.
I don't know how other states run their programs but I imagine it is the same as here in PA, I would like to see a more or less formal PMI for each rifle, it could be broken down into groups of people with similar rifles or however and go over how the rifle functions, it's parts give them an opportunity to practice "running their guns" (loading mags, dropping mags, locking slides back, slamming bolts closed ect. In a safe ammunition free area. I have not been doing this with Appleseed long, but I have been doing this for a while, and it doesn't surprise me that these people don't know how to use their equipment, I kind of feel like we are missing a real opportunity here to get people more familure with their rifle before putting them on the line with it. And really even if someone already knows how to work their rifle what's an hour or so at the beginning of the day to just go over it with everyone? Practice dosen't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.
Just one mans openion.
~PlatzOut~
A few comments:
First - should this be on the open forum or in the instructor page?
Second - I have seen many a back sight that was good for CQB but hard to work for precision work, most memorably one that had been drilled out to make a big hole. Too big is hard to work with. Sometimes this can be alleviated by pulling back from having a nose on the charging handle. If the eye relief is extended back from the rear sight you reduce the problem some.
Third - Tac slings are interesting and there are many ways to work with them. I have used a over the trigger arm solution that works pretty well even if it looks weird:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5119/5902895745_826e92cce3_z.jpg)
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6056/5903447236_12341d0e21_z.jpg)
The main goal is to increase tension without making the tac sling into a non-tac sling. Some shooters are just not interested in that and finding a solution for them is just another level of adaption that we we do as AS instructors.
Of course, YMMV.
Quote from: SSG Platz on May 03, 2012, 10:01:40 AM
Tatical slings are good for weapons retention and kicking in doors but seeing how we don't wear are rifles all day or kick in any doors at an Appleseed I would have just striped the sling off and zip tied a loaner sling on
Well.... only if it didn't work or the student couldn't make it work. One persons gear is his gear and he/she should learn its +/-'s . Not all gear is suited for applesed but most can made to get close enough. I always explain that a carbine presents a challenge but try..persist if not let me know then we can either modify or switch it out. Fundamentals are fundamentals. I had rifleman shoot 220+ repeatedly without any sling ( gasp) with his aimpoint and scar because he knows about the fundamentals.
pb
That's totally acceptable for me to believe I shoot expert for the army and basic marksmanship in the military is not taught with a sling, only once you get into the higher level stuff.
~PlatzOut~
I think this area is the place for this discussion. That way prospective shooters may see it, and it could head off some potential equipment issues.
Yeah, I can tell you I'm not overly impressed with the Troy sight. Yuck. I'll stick to my MATech sight. The MATech is good enough for the Army to put them on issue M4's (SOPMOD apparently). My issue M4 had one on it when I went from an M16A4 to the M4. I liked it enough that I bought one for my M4 clone.
I've never been a big fan of tactical slings. The solution I ended up with was a small web loop in the rear swivel, and it would attach to a carabiner on my IBA body armor. That was for carrying the rifle. I also kept a USGI nylon web sling in my assault pack for shooting purposes. An alternative workable for me was an M249 SAW sling.
All that said on slings, I've seen tactical slings worked with to make them usable for shooting support. Just takes some imagination.
I took one of those spec opps "momba" 3 point slings and turned it into a one point that I could wear with my plate carrier and to the chow hall. Now I use a tatical Taylor for my plate carrier and my "invention whenever I'm not in armor.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would not try to retrofit a tatical sling to work for precision shooting, unless I had no other choice. I think if someone showed up to one of my shoots with a taticool sling I probably let them fight with it for a little bit, just so they could figure out its not the right tool for this particular application, but once we get to the point where we teach sling looping I would swap the shooter out.
My reasoning behind this is, there is a correct tool for every job, so why would you try to drive a nail with a crescent wrench? Can you do it? Yes, if you have to. But if there is an easier way why not use it?
If I were a betting man, i would bet you, that the shooter who comes to a shoot and is given a proper sling will have a better time and learn more, than a shooter why unknowing brings whatever sling they saw on the Internet that looked cool and has to wrap it once around their arm, three times around their neck, and run it down to their shoe to get proper sling tention.
~PlatzOut~