Hey everyone. I'll be attending my first Appleseed event in Ramseur, NC next month along with my brother. I have four rifles that we could possibly use for the event and I'm having a little trouble deciding which would be the best to take in order to get the most out of the event. We are both experienced shooters, but have never done anything like Appleseed before. My brother mostly shoots his scoped bolt guns from a bench, and I shoot about 500 rounds of handgun per month, so this will be new for us. We have equal amount of trigger time with the following rifles, which is to say, not a whole lot.
Marlin 795 w/ fixed 4x scope
Beretta CX4 9mm with peep sights (adjustable but not very user-friendly) and Burris Fastfire reflex sight
16" AR15 with Magpul BUIS (windage adjustable only) and an Aimpoint PRO optic
M1 Garand in .308 with stock sights
One of us will take the Marlin for the majority of the event, the other will probably use the AR15 or the CX4 as I've got plenty of 223 and 9mm on hand. I'm hesitant (but not totally resistant) to use the Garand a whole lot because of the cost of ammo, but it would be fun to try it on the 500 yd range. I've never been able to take it out past 100 before.
Any advice? Should we each just grab one gun for the event and a case of ammo? Bring 'em all and switch around as the mood strikes? I'm not opposed to changing how these guns are set up if that will maximize the experience (such as getting tech sights for the Marlin), but obviously I would rather use what I already have on hand. Let me know what you guys think!
-stanislovas
Glad you are going to an event!!! Have a great time!
For myself, I'd take the Marlin for the bulk of the learning and the M1 in 308 for KD.
If you and/or your brother are able, pick up another Marlin. The amount of money you will save on ammo for the bulk of the event will go a long way towards paying for the rifle.
SS
Since you already have a 795 and I'm guessing extra clips for it I would definately get another one. Tech sights are great.
At $300 for 1000 rounds of .223= $12 per AQT!
CMP price for Greek M2 is roughly $110 /200 rounds delivered =$22 per AQT
At $12/ box of 50, 9mm is $.24 a round is $9.60 per AQT.
On Sunday we shoot a LOT of AQTs.
Reguardless of what you paid for the ammo you have these are your replacement cost and I believe on the low side too. Steel cases are cheaper but still a lot more than a .22 LR.
By all means bring the big guns for the KD part of the day but save a bunch of money and get your first LTR for when you take the Orange Hat!
I whole heartedly agree with Stand on this one,
Use the .22 and .223 for twenty five meters, and cost effectiveness.
Then the brother with the.22 can switch to the .308 for KD.
If you can pick up another .22, I would pick the Rugger 10/22, this is the Ideal rifle for Appleseeds.
Another .22 may actually pay for itself,depending on how much trigger time, you and your brother put in between now and the time you receive your Patches.
Everyone is capable of obtaining a patch;
but will they endure the trail,
show the resilience, the persistence, the grit, the intestinal fortitude, the tenacity,necessary to prevale.
If you work real hard for it like I did it will change you.
If it comes to easy unfortunately it has been my experience, the individual proved his skill and is never seen or heard from on the AS trail again!
Work hard and good luck! You don't need luck, just a teachable attitude. ^:)^
Thanks for the replies, guys. It doesn't take a whole lot of convincing for me to find an excuse to pick up a new gun, so I guess I will start looking at another 22. I'm not really pleased with the quality of the new 795s or 10/22s, but if I can find a good used one, I will go for it. I was also considering getting a 22 caliber AR, specifically one of the S&W M&P22s. I'm assuming that using the full-length magazines in AR pattern rifles makes it difficult to shoot from prone. Does anyone know if shorter mags are available for the S&W 22?
-stanislovas
The thing with the M&P, I'm not discouraging you, but this will cost almost 600$.
However there is an instructor discount to almost45%.Last I heard they were $580,
or$360 after discount.
If I had it to do over again I would get the Rugger, Then become close to an instructor, and hit them up for there discount or Fast track to your Red hat!
Yeah, I wouldn't pay $600, but I've seen them used locally for around $400. I have an NRA handgun instructor cert... can I get the discount with that? I know I can get an instructor discount from Ruger with it... the 10/22 Target looks very nice, but the barrel doesn't look to be drilled for front irons.
-stanislovas
Quote from: Stanislovas on April 13, 2012, 11:15:32 AM
I was also considering getting a 22 caliber AR, specifically one of the S&W M&P22s. I'm assuming that using the full-length magazines in AR pattern rifles makes it difficult to shoot from prone. Does anyone know if shorter mags are available for the S&W 22?
-stanislovas
There are 10 round magazines available for the M&P15/22. And they are affordable.
http://www.44mag.com/product/m_p_15-22_10_short_magazine/smith_and_wesson (http://www.44mag.com/product/m_p_15-22_10_short_magazine/smith_and_wesson)
Whatever you go with make sure you get a GI Sling put on it. See this:
http://appleseedinfo.org/as_prepare.html (http://appleseedinfo.org/as_prepare.html)
On the above link scroll down to the part which reads "Rifle specific preparations"
Appleseed does sell GI Slings cheap if you can't find one at a surplus store:
http://www.appleseedstore.flyingcart.com/?p=detail&pid=10&cat_id=0 (http://www.appleseedstore.flyingcart.com/?p=detail&pid=10&cat_id=0)
Quote from: Stanislovas on April 13, 2012, 12:28:18 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't pay $600, but I've seen them used locally for around $400. I have an NRA handgun instructor cert... can I get the discount with that? I know I can get an instructor discount from Ruger with it... the 10/22 Target looks very nice, but the barrel doesn't look to be drilled for front irons.
-stanislovas
There's a way to get iron sights on a Ruger 10/22T without chopping up the bull barrel:
Go to http://tech-sights.com/, and look under 10/22 Sights for the TS157 .920 Barrel Dovetail Adaptor, which will work with either their 100 or 200 model of military style aperture/post sights. Mounts to the barrel with thread locker.
There are 10-rounders for the S&W 15-22. They make prone shooting a lot easier, enable a real NPOA. O0
You can order them directly from the S&W web site, and some of the online dealers (Midway USA?) also list them. :~ :~ :~ :~
Quote from: Nero on April 13, 2012, 01:55:24 PM
There's a way to get iron sights on a Ruger 10/22T without chopping up the bull barrel:
Go to http://tech-sights.com/, and look under 10/22 Sights for the TS157 .920 Barrel Dovetail Adaptor, which will work with either their 100 or 200 model of military style aperture/post sights. Mounts to the barrel with thread locker.
That's very cool. Have you actually used it before? I would be curious as to how well it stays in place after lots of firing.
-stanislovas
Quote from: Stanislovas on April 13, 2012, 02:31:04 PM
Quote from: Nero on April 13, 2012, 01:55:24 PM
There's a way to get iron sights on a Ruger 10/22T without chopping up the bull barrel:
Go to http://tech-sights.com/, and look under 10/22 Sights for the TS157 .920 Barrel Dovetail Adaptor, which will work with either their 100 or 200 model of military style aperture/post sights. Mounts to the barrel with thread locker.
That's very cool. Have you actually used it before? I would be curious as to how well it stays in place after lots of firing.
-stanislovas
I have not tried it. (My wife has our target barrel 10/22 right now, and her eyes need a scope. I'm using a conventional barrel 10/22 LTR with Tech-sight's model 200.) If you really want to be sure it stays on there, you could always use the red goop instead of the blue, but it looks light there ought to be a lot of contact surface between the adapter and the barrel, which is what you need.
MAKE SURE IT HAS A GI WEB OR 1907 SLING ON IT
I would contact S&W,
and ask if your instructor cert. is good enough for the discount!
Some shoot bosses won't let you use a 9mm. I'd recommend against it anyhow.
Does your AR have the PRO with a 2moa red dot or a 4 moa? Because 4 MOA is gonna cover up most of our targets.
You probably are going to end up buying another .22, from my experience. But borrowing one from a friend might not be a bad idea for this shoot.
For slings, these: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=27672.0 work just as well as the GI slings for less money. I actually think they're better. But I'm biased.
Stan,
NRA Cert Pistol Instructor ID (card or certificate) will get you entree into Ruger-Henry-Smith Instructor Purchase Programs - and so will Appleseed Red Hat/Full Instructor...
Basically, means about a 1/3 off msrp opportunity, assuming you have an FFL to accept delivery of your purchase(s) and do the paperwork...All three companies have forms that detail their offerings, which are designed to be used for training... Ruger will sell you pretty much anything they make if you ask, Henry will do the same, but S&W (whose 2012 sheet has not yet been released) will only sell exactly what's listed...
Examples: Ruger 10-22s (bone stock) about $195; S&W M&P15-22 as mentioned, about $360...Henry AR7 about $165...pistols from Ruger and Smith as well (M41 S&W .22, Ruger SP101, Blackhawk Convert in 357/9mm, among others...).
Have used program numerous times over last 25+ years - nice perq for both NRA and Appleseed instructor status...
Can email you the 2012 Ruger and Henry forms - the companies don't want them just posted somewhere...
As I said, my contact @ Smith keeps playing the we're busy card, but assures me I'm on list to receive the sheet when ready...
Will have to start second front campaign to approach Remington-Savage and others to see about getting them to start same in support of safe, effective (and publicizing their products) instruction.
Last, have been working with TALO Distrib to have Ruger bring out ATR 10-22 set up for Appleseed events, i.e. studs, swivels, 1.25" sling, Tech-style sights, and 2 mags....everything you need and nothing you don't, ready to go from store to PA line...stay tuned, as PA booth cadre supposed to meet face to face with the TALO Director of Development...
Email address for the ruger and enry forms... and
Excelsior,
madMark
An alternative rarely mentioned, and not mentioned here, is the Savage Mark II series bolt guns. Add a good sling (I recommend either a USGI type web sling or a 1907 Sling, just makes sure they're 1 1/4 inch), a few spare mags and a decent scope, and you're ready to go.
I didn't mention iron sights on this, as the better ones don't have irons, and adding them isn't easy. That said, they're really good rifles, more than accurate enough too. I've seen total newbie shooters make a Rifleman score at their first Appleseed with them. Plus, they're fairly cheap, MSRP under $200.
Whatever you get/use, practice Stronghand (only) reloads and Slide Lock Release/Manipulation.
It was hard for me to get used to reloading without breaking my Support hand Grip. Dropping the Bolt on my AR by reaching over with my right hand took some brainwashing too.
I went to a 2 Day Appleseed and used my .223 the 2nd day as I was having some fit problems with my .22.
We shot 300 rounds that one day.
Would have made a dent in a 10/22 purchase for sure.
Buy a Magpul BAD for the AR. That way you can release the bolt without breaking position.
While I prefer 10/22s as LTRs, I bought a couple 795s when they were cheap with rebates and set one up as an LTR with Tech Sights. It has proven to be very accurate and reliable and has made Rifleman several times. It also has a lot of rounds through it as a loaner. My other 795 is intended to be an LTR with a scope, just haven't got around to mounting the scope yet.
Since the OP already has an AR, I suggest buying a dedicated 22 upper for it rather than a S&W or a conversion kit. Under sling tension the Smith will deviate from POA. Plus it makes shooting his AR a lot cheaper.
I think you are on the right track Mac. I like both rifles and own the 10-22 but I recently decided to commit to giving the 795 a fair shake and I think it is highly under-rated. Its really accurate, great barrel. It is inexpensive. I know that the after-market products make the 10-22 appealing but when you get down to brass tacks, one of the very few significant advantages of the Ruger is the magazine. the Marlin has the nifty bolt release and lock back, too. After borrowing YHJs marlin and giving it some time, i am convinced we under appreciate it for both its reliability, accuracy, and cost.
Probably not relevant to the OP, but another plus for the 795 is that the stock is an easier fit to youth or women with small hands, compared to the Ruger. Probably due to the width of the Ruger rotary mag, the grip area of the 10/22 stock is a bit much for some folks (unless you've got the 'compact' stock) and it encourages draggin' wood unless they are watched and (often repeatedly) coached on hand position.
I don't own a 795, but have ended up behind several belonging to my light rifle students. Quite accurate OOB - easily 4MOA - though the triggers have been rather inconsistent. (Not that the stock 10/22 is any paragon there.)
I will also note the the 795 does change point of impact with a tight sling due to the plastic stock. I used a nylon sling in prone one time and because it had been slipping I reefed it down pretty tight. All my groups were 2" low and left of black. Cheap solution is simply don't shoot with a tight sling. Next solution is to find an old wood stock from a Marlin Mod 75 or 995 and modify it to fit the bolt hold open lever
Thanks for all the helpful replies, you guys. I've decided to either go for the S&W 15-22 or a .22 upper. Regarding sling use on the AR platform, are there ideal sling attachment points that work best for Appleseed?
-stanislovas
"Regarding sling use on the AR platform, are there ideal sling attachment points that work best for Appleseed?"
Not on the barrel, and as far forward on the handguard as is possible.
On the Marlin 795 discussions, some of us have been on that page from the begining. I love the Marlin.
Quote from: The Wolfhound on April 17, 2012, 06:39:02 PM
Not on the barrel, and as far forward on the handguard as is possible.
Why would that be? - As rear-ward as possible has the dual benefit of keeping support hand from sliding forward as well as exerting less barrel deflection (assuming non-floated barrel). No?
In reply, A barrel mounted sling has been shown to effect Point of Impact by up to a couple of MOA. It is best avoided if possible. Most AR handguards come in as a bit short. My M-4gery barely has room for my hand between magwell and swivel. My suggestions were to avoid this and allow hand placement for best support instead of "that is the only place it will fit". Your mileage may vary.
It does not look like you are still considering bringing the 9mm; however, my understanding is that max caliber for qualifying on the AQT is 8mm. So, if you hope to earn a patch at this event, your 9mm would not be appropriate. Looks like you already have good advice on the other considerations.
Quote from: KnowFear on April 17, 2012, 08:24:04 PM
Quote from: The Wolfhound on April 17, 2012, 06:39:02 PM
Not on the barrel, and as far forward on the handguard as is possible.
Why would that be? - As rear-ward as possible has the dual benefit of keeping support hand from sliding forward as well as exerting less barrel deflection (assuming non-floated barrel). No?
As long as it's on the handguard, and you can get your elbow under the rifle, really just put it where it's most comfortable. You'll probably change it a bunch anyway, as you get more used to our course of fire.
My comment was mostly directed at those using an M4gery. My not particularly large hands barely fit between the magwell and the swivel at its most forward possible placement. Maximizing that short handguard was my advice.