I know that the Seated position is different for everyone....
My Seated position SUCKS.
I haven't been able to relax into it due to a lower back injury.
I am relatively flexible (Martial Arts teacher and can easily Front Kick over my head) but I just can't (right now) get into a well supported Seated position.
It is easier if I use an AR-15 with an A2 Handle Sight (it sits higher).
I can sit with my Trigger Leg bent under in a Half Crossed Leg position and my Support Leg out.
Rest my Support Elbow on that Leg and keep the Trigger Arm unsupported in a 'Chicken Wing'.
I can Shoot and Breathe better in this position than in a crammed down seated.....
Does that sound 'acceptable'?
In the meantime I will continue to work on the standard seated positions.
Those positions are all totally comfortable to me until I try to rest my elbows and get all the way down.
Thanks,
Dude
Justsomedude,
If You shoot well in that Position, 42 or above on the second stage of an AQT, I see no problem with the discribed position.
If less than 42, Practice this position while dry firing, at least twice as much as Your other positions. and see what happens on Your next few AQT.
But Please do not use this position
JSD, yep, the sitting position can be tough. My chest has fallen and it can't get up! :) Play with different combinations as you try to find what works for you but also keep trying the "book" way. If you are pretty flexible the cross legged might not work as by the time you get your elbows in front of your knees you can't get enough elevation. Might try open legged or a combination of such. I've seen some that could use a hybrid between sitting and kneeling very well. The "relax" part will come....O.L.
IMHO, if it works for you, use it. ;)
Had a lady at a shoot that could not shoot prone or any of the sitting positions, due to a neck injury. She used a cross legged free style position. From the waist down she sat cross legged style. She held her upper body as you would in the standing position. I have never seen anyone use this type of position before.
She shot a 194 on the AQT. I should point out that she had never fired a rifle before the event.
Adapt, improvise, overcome.
Dude, I will echo the sentiment that sitting position is very personal in nature and has to be tailered to the individual. That said, I would recommend you exhaust all options before resorting to a sitting position with an unsupported elbow. Because of advanced age I also have a stiff lower back. I finally settled on a crossed ankle sitting position where I get the requisite elevation by holding my legs upright. I know using muscles to maintain position is heresy but it works for me. My last AQT I shot 48 doing this. I definitely think this is preferable to having a chicken wing. Good luck!
Dude,
Having worked on the line with you as a shooter,
the position you utilize is acceptable in that there is not a safety issue.
Careful not to sweep your own feet.
Having knowledge of your Body geometry and physical ailments continue to do the work of stretching and forcing the proper positions during dry fire periods at home between events. You can work on Breathing in the position.
This will not be worked out on the line during an event!(Highly unlikely)
Dude, one of the folks who made rifleman at the last shoot I worked used exactly the position you describe.
An interesting point raised above....
Yes, my legs are flexible so they are low in cross legged position.
That makes it harder for me to get low enough to rest my arms.
I hadn't thought about it that way.
I'm adjusting my Grip and my head position now.
It is making it easier for me to get comfortable in all shooting positions so I just might have a decent crossed ankle platform with some work.
Planning to make the upcoming Smyrna event.
Probably just one day this time.
THANKS
JSD, "An interesting point raised above....
Yes, my legs are flexible so they are low in cross legged position.
That makes it harder for me to get low enough to rest my arms.
I hadn't thought about it that way."
Yep, seen it a jillion times, the cross legged won't work for flexible folks. Cross for us fat stiff guys, open for skinny flexible. Seems I saw that in a 50 year old marksmanship manual or video some where? :)...O.L.
Quote from: Justsomedude on April 11, 2012, 12:56:42 PM
I know that the Seated position is different for everyone....
My Seated position SUCKS.
I haven't been able to relax into it due to a lower back injury.
I am relatively flexible (Martial Arts teacher and can easily Front Kick over my head) but I just can't (right now) get into a well supported Seated position.
It is easier if I use an AR-15 with an A2 Handle Sight (it sits higher).
I can sit with my Trigger Leg bent under in a Half Crossed Leg position and my Support Leg out.
Rest my Support Elbow on that Leg and keep the Trigger Arm unsupported in a 'Chicken Wing'.
I can Shoot and Breathe better in this position than in a crammed down seated.....
Does that sound 'acceptable'?
In the meantime I will continue to work on the standard seated positions.
Those positions are all totally comfortable to me until I try to rest my elbows and get all the way down.
Thanks,
Dude
Well, you've got to do what you've got to do.
My sitting isn't good either (arthritis), and I used to have to do kneeling (and can't any more).
A good sitting position isn't going to be comfortable initially, but after time should be fairly tolerable.
:slap:
Ok...I'll watch the video again :)
Part of my problem is that I was REALLY craning forward and indexing my shooting thumb knuckle at my Cheekbone.
Now I am staying back on the Stock and using a Cheekrest and it is working well.
That's not so bad (thumb touching the cheekbone). My thumb knuckle touches the corner of my mouth when shooting my M14 or M1 Garand, in any position. It's called spot weld or cheek weld when your hand touches your cheek. Easily repeatable, and the best you can hope for. Just need to make sure that you aren't making other mistakes to allow this.
Looking at your original post again, I'd say use that position, just know that it will probably improve over time, as your body gets used to it.
Quote from: Justsomedude on April 12, 2012, 02:27:41 AM
An interesting point raised above....
Yes, my legs are flexible so they are low in cross legged position.
That makes it harder for me to get low enough to rest my arms.
I hadn't thought about it that way.
I have the same issue and am flexible enough to get my elbows on the ground in the crossed leg position. My first two Rifleman scores were shot from the kneeling position; support knee up in my armpit and trigger arm chicken winged. It works, but causes some lateral spreading in the group which I expect you see in your position as well.
What I have ended up with is a crossed legs position where I put my elbows inside my knees, in the meaty "V" formed by my thigh and shin. Feet are under my knees or thighs to get my knees as high off the ground as they can without muscle. This gets my elbows higher up so I can actually get the sights on the target! I know the book says elbows should be forward of the knee, but for me it takes muscle to hold the elbows off the ground that way. I find this position quite stable, but not as easy to adjust NPOA as in kneeling.
It is my experience that this is less about flexability and more about body type and shape. Before I go on, I will add this disclaimer: I always instruct to the shooters the "Appleseed Way" of sitting positions.
From what I see there are 2 prominent features that really make the difference. Torso length and bulk, and arm/leg length and bulk.
A person with a less bulky long torso and long arms are more apt to get into that coveted elbows on the ground position.
A person with a bulky short torso and short arms and legs normally will have many problems with the cross leg position. They just won't be able to get the rifle high enough to get a proper cheek weld.
Assessing the shooters body type is the fastest way to finding positions that work. For example, a person with long limbs will need less index on the target, they actually may need no index and may be facing the target.
On the line, to the individual that is having problems (usually short arms and abdomen) I will suggest the "cross leg chicken wing". It's a good position, and as far as positions go, the lower to the ground that the mass of the body is, the better in most cases. Lower to the ground means more muscular relaxation and more bone/tendon support.
I teach the "elbows on the target side of the knee" concept but in truth, I couldn't disagree more. Unless the armpit is being supported by the knee bone, I think this adds muscle to the equation. I believe using the "V" of the bent knee is far less muscle and far more bone/tendon support. Of course, bone on bone without some sort of meat to create friction is always bad.
Anyway, my $.02
Someone on this thread needs to stop over analyzing,
Reading and watching video's.,
and get on the floor and start dry firing. stop entertaining the thought of do it how you want,
That is not what we teach. The only reason something else is acceptable, is because the techniques taught were to difficult.
So if your flexible then just do it!
I'm pretty well sorted out now that I'm not hunching so far into the rifle.
Crossed Ankle and maybe Open Leg.
Just have to remember to keep my Head up straight.
I used to have trouble with seated position ( I'm a flexible girl) and I've found if you wear a pair thick soled/heavy boots it helps to elevate your legs in cross legged position.
Hope this helps O0
Anna