Hi All,
Picking out and upper for an AR and not wanting to be penny wise and pound foolish what barrel do you recommend for a first AR. Use: Appleseed, casual target shooting to 500m and under.
Thanks,
Stand
Chrome lined chamber and barrel.
Maximum barrel life - maximum reliability - easy cleaning
A quality chrome lined barrel will produce more than acceptable accuracy.
Lots of different factors to consider.
What length barrel do you want? 16", 20" or other?
What configuration, M4, light weight, heavy, bull barrel, military profile?
What ammo are you going to shoot, 55 grain, 62 grain or heavier?
Are you going to use optics, iron sights or both?
I've built 7 or 8 ARs. Personally I wouldn't pay extra for a chrome lined barrel. It is not needed on a semi auto rifle unless you are using it day in and day out in the jungles of SE Asia. On the other hand it has become somewhat standard, so if comparable in price with a chrome moly bbl, why not?
A HB profile 20" barrel is probably your best choice if shooting at long distances particular with iron sights. Longer sight radius, more stable to hold.
A real popular upper these days is a 16" M4 profile, with mid length gas tube/front sight base, chrome lined with a 1:7 twist bbl and flat top upper. This allows one to use optics and iron sights. The mid length tube and front sight give a little longer sight radius than a 16" carbine upper. The 1:7 twist stabilizes the heavier 72 grain bullets better for longer distances.
Frankly though a standard 16" or 20" bbl upper would work fine for Appleseed, plinking and general shooting.
I second Mac's recommendations. All depends on what you want to do with it. Used as a rifle and not a short range spray and prey device, we couldn't be happier with the 16-20" normal barreled examples we own. The only thing I'd do if buying again, they'd all be 20"+....O.L.
Get on your local gun forum and buy a used one for under $500.
I don't care what length it is, what barrel it has, what features... just buy an upper. After using it a few months you'll figure out what you like, what you don't like, what you need for what purpose, etc.
Yup, the AR 15 is the "Barbie doll" of rifles.
Don't like it the way it is, then just change a few parts, and voila, it's completely different.
If you don't know what you really want (from experience) right now, then just follow Slim's suggestion.
New barrels are usually around $200 for the most part.
I'll tell you that to make full use of a really good stainless barrel, you'll need to get your skills to about 1 MOA or less.
if you want to use steel case ammo, go chrome lined, for sub- zero conditions chromemoly, easy maintenance with brass case ammo stainless
I'm old school myself. I'd go 1:7, 20" chrome-lined GI and I mean just that.
Longer sight radius, longer life, and faster twist will handle anything 55 grains and up.
Quote from: PHenry on April 09, 2012, 05:57:14 PM
I'm old school myself. I'd go 1:7, 20" chrome-lined GI and I mean just that.
Longer sight radius, longer life, and faster twist will handle anything 55 grains and up.
If I'm buying just one (who buys just one AR?) I'm with PHenry all day long.
I'll put my recommendation in: 16'', midlength, gov/heavy profile chrome lined. Make sure you get m4 feedramps if you can.
You will not find a true match grade barrle that is Crome lined. Also if you want the most accuracy make sure you get a .223 and NOT a 5.56. If you don't care about any of that stuff then get a crome line 5.56 barle with a 1 in 7 twist, it will be the most versite and longest lasting of the many choices you can pick from. Also I would not buy a used barrel, it's like playing the lotto, you may luck out and get an awesome deal, or you may get an over priced paper weight that's had 10,000 rounds though it and the only guarantee you have is the word of a stranger that for whatever reason doesn't want or like it.
How about this:
http://akpartskits.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_16&products_id=278&zenid=271602b925a6248e08732dc5716a7c9b
Any feedback on Blackthorne Products?
It is a complete rifle kit because I need the charg handle, bolt & carrier and figure spare parts are a good thing. $429 free shipping, A2 20 " Hbar 1:9, no chrome can ad for $50.
Next kit is 20" Bull SS, flat top full float tube, $469, I would scope for now and folding irons later.
http://akpartskits.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_16&products_id=276&zenid=271602b925a6248e08732dc5716a7c9b
I found nothing on the PA gun owners forum below $500.
Thanks,
Stand
Quote from: Stand on April 09, 2012, 11:44:01 PMI found nothing on the PA gun owners forum below $500.
Whole rifle for $750?
The parts kit you listed isn't bad but once you add all the other parts you'll need you'll be in the ballpark of that price too.
1-9 will give you a longer life, but you will pay for it in accuracy. A 1-7 will give you the best performance and accuracy
Quote from: Stand on April 08, 2012, 10:54:57 PM
Hi All,
Picking out and upper for an AR and not wanting to be penny wise and pound foolish what barrel do you recommend for a first AR. Use: Appleseed, casual target shooting to 500m and under.
Thanks,
Stand
For those uses, I would recommend an AR with rifle-length sight radius. The shorter carbines are handier for close quarters, indoors, vehicles, etc., and makes the rifle a little lighter all else being equal, but none of those things are of any consequence for Appleseed and casual target use. Rifle-length sight radius will mostly put you in the realm of 20" barrels, but there is such a thing as a 16" "dissipator" that has rifle length handguards and sight radius.
Even if you plan on shooting with only iron sights, I still recommend getting a flat-top rifle, just in case you ever want to put optics on it. It generally doesn't cost any more to get them with this feature, and it has become just about ubiquitous. Make sure you get the detachable carry handle rear sight, or one in that same style that has the elevation drum in the rear. It will come in handy for your "under 500m casual target shooting."
As for barrel type, it doesn't really matter for your stated purposes. Any of them will shoot well under Rifleman's standards and will get you hits out to 500m and beyond on the target range. Where the different barrel types come into their own is when you start wanting better-than-average accuracy for competition, long range precision, small critters at long range, etc., in which case a nice stainless barrel would serve you well -- or if you want a rifle that will be seeing a very heavy round count under sometimes sub-optimal conditions and with minimal maintenance, such as for a Second Amendment purpose rifle, or a rifle you intend to use for a lot of high-round-count training, in which case a chrome lined or nitrided barrel would serve you well.
I'm with Slim... just buy one that doesn't cost too much, and as you gain knowledge and experience, you will figure out what features you want.
If you want my recommendation for a good 20" barreled rifle, here is one that I think is a bargain: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/complete-uppers/20/psa-20-5-56-1-7-cmv-chrome-lined-mp-hpt-upper.html I would get that and order it with a carry handle rear sight for $65 more. It looks like that would come out to $522 plus shipping. Not too bad for a brand new one with all mil-spec features and quality control.
Yep. That looks like a good one.
Thanks Guys!
Quote from: Stand on April 09, 2012, 11:44:01 PM
How about this:
http://akpartskits.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_16&products_id=278&zenid=271602b925a6248e08732dc5716a7c9b
Any feedback on Blackthorne Products?
It is a complete rifle kit because I need the charg handle, bolt & carrier and figure spare parts are a good thing. $429 free shipping, A2 20 " Hbar 1:9, no chrome can ad for $50.
Next kit is 20" Bull SS, flat top full float tube, $469, I would scope for now and folding irons later.
http://akpartskits.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_16&products_id=276&zenid=271602b925a6248e08732dc5716a7c9b
I found nothing on the PA gun owners forum below $500.
Thanks,
Stand
Be careful with Blackthorne. They have a bad reputation (check AR15.com). There are reports of people ordering kits and receiving out of spec parts, missing parts, wrong parts, broken parts, used parts, etc. There is little to no customer support. The company has changed names 3 times in the past decade. Proceed with caution!
Brad
Stay away from Blackthorne. Palmetto State Armory however is good to go. O0
+1 for PSA. It's what I use.
I know a fellow who picked up a real GI M16A2 upper at a show thinking it would be more accurate than his 16". I think he paid about $450 for it complete. As the rifle wasn't the problem, it didn't help, so he placed it in safe and began looking for next widget to make him a good shot.
Then he found Appleseeds and pulled that old dusty upper out. Turns out it was made by Colts and was totally GI. The longer barrel didn't help accuracy so much, but the longer sight radius did. After several thousand rounds it will still pull well under 2MOA with ball ammo.
I met a man once who had a very zippy spotting scope. I remarked that it must have been pricey. He replied without hesitation or irritation: "You can buy it once, or you can buy it three times." Me, I was on second junk spotting scope and looking for third. I will never forgit his remarks and always try to buy once.
Money spent on a good rifle is money well spent and never regretted.
i agree, and thaks kinda what I was trying to get at with my eariler post, I personaly am working on a MK 262 upper for my AR Platform and am looking for a med to heavy black sprial fluited 18" barrel with a target crown and a 1-8 twist. Talk about hard to find! check out Adams Arms they make good stuff, I've had the carbine leanth piston with free float barrle for about 3 years. That thing is a tack driver matched with my TA31RCO and 855 ball ammo.
Not that hard to find, just have to apply enough money.
Now, if money is an issue, and you're a new shooter, keep it simple.
If you're an accomplished shooter (most of you making suggestions here qualify), then get what you know.
I'll mention that there's real just one 223/5.56 chamber. The difference between the 3 (223, 5.56 and Wylde) is a matter of the throat, actually the throat depth.
To further muddy the waters, there's barrels/rifles correctly marked, marked 223 but have a 5.56 throat, and marked 5.56 but have a 223 throat.
The general rule of thumb is to go by the twist rate of the barrel, regardless of how it's marked. Yes, I've seen more than enough ads that got the wrong wording. And, if it's the proper twist for the ammo used, there will be few to no problems.
Buying reputable stuff is the best way to go.
The 223 throat is proper for 55 gr ammo, the 5.56 is proper for 62 gr and higher (and still will usually shoot 55 gr OK) and a Wylde is a special compromise intended for match ammo (in between the 223 and 5.56).
Thanks again,
The bite of poor quality last long after the thrill of a low price is gone.
I'd go with a melonite treated barrel as you get the benefits of chrome plus the accuracy of stainless steel. A 20 in barrel gives you a lot more power. I'd go with AR Performance, they have a great product and great prices. If you are going with a stripped barrel, I'd go with this: http://www.ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/1679/6604 If you can swing it, go with their barreled upper. They bed the barrel into the receiver which gives you no play between the barrel and receiver without over tightening the barrel nut.
Quote from: Roland on April 11, 2012, 05:45:45 PM
+1 for PSA. It's what I use.
+2 there cold hammer forged, chrome lined barrels are made by FN U.S.G.I.!
unless you are going for sight radius you do not need a 20" barrel, you will still get the same preformance out of an 18" barrel as you willl a 20" or even longer. and before any of you say Im full of crap pm me and I can point you in the right direction because they are running 700's at sniper schools that are hitting sub moa groups out past 1,350 meters, with 18' barels. You can run a mk 26 at 700 Meters if you are a decent shooter, 900 Meters if you are compitent. the distance really isnt the issue its the ass behind the bullet so to speak, 5.56 just really dosen't have any.
~PlatzOut~
Weighing in here, and adding some anecdotal data to help frame the context.
I shoot NRA High Power.
Yeah, I shoot AQT's and walk the Appleseed Trail.
But I have delusions of chasing down a Distinguished Rifleman ranking on the CMP competition trail.
In the last year, I've been shooting an inexpensive 1:9 twist Del-ton chrome-lined A2 rifle. Started shootingthe HP course with high 70% scores. Rapidly climbed to about 85% scores with a little bit of fine-tuning. Plateaued with that rifle at high 80's.
Problems I was having:
1. I can hit a 20" target at 500 yards. But the X ring is 5" wide. The 10 ring is 10" wide. The 9 ring is about 14" and the 8 ring is about 18" wide. The 7 ring is massive, about 30" wide. Subtle changes in wind during a 20-shot string, with 69gr bullets, end up in SIGNIFICANT horizontal variation. Heavier 75/77/80gr bullets have a lot less drift. I was shooting about 170-175 on average for a 20 shot 500 or 600 yard string. Getting robbed of points on wind shifts.
2. Velocity variation.
I bought a White Oak Armory 1:7 twist upper with stainless barrel after some research. I chose this because:
1. 1:7 twist will shoot up to 80gr ammo. Maybe even 90. Though the applicability of anything more than 77gr is dubious, since 77 is the heaviest that can be loaded to fit in a magazine.
2. Not chrome lined. Chrome lining tends to double barrel lifetime... at the expense of velocity consistency. The chrome lining has more variation in thickness, resulting in bore diameter variations.
3. It was not intended as a zombie/redcoat/defensive firearm. I had $$$ for a dedicated competition firearm.
My scores immediately jumped into the 90% range and put me in "Expert" qualification level, once I was able to use 75gr ammo effectively. Less wind drift resulted in more X/10 hits. NewGuy556 and AZOpie both have seen my scores jump to the low 90's recently.
My 300 yard rapid prones tightened into the high 90's where they used to be low 90's. Part of that could be the high round count on the old rifle... I had over 5000 rounds on it without a solid count and the throat could have been going, though chrome rifles are supposed to last 8000+ while stainless rifles are supposed to last about 4000 or so. Part of it could be the 1/4 MOA sight adjustments rather than 1MOA, giving me a great zero for 300 yard rapid strings.
My X-count increased significantly across the course.
I hope to be shooting "Master" scores on High Power matches by this fall.
Now, I'm not recommending that you go out and get a "game gun" like what I got. Not at all.
I also went out and got a 1:7 twist flat-top 20" chrome lined upper for another rifle build, with a detachable carry handle. THIS rifle is my zombie/redcoat/defense rifle.
I went chrome lined for longevity. This is still a sub-MOA rifle... but the White Oak is probably a sub 1/2 MOA rifle. This other rifle has 1/2 MOA sights on the carry handle, labeled like combat sights rather than match sights on the White Oak (there's a difference). It has the GI standard 0-2 and 3+ aperture rather than the match hooded one. The White Oak has 1/4 MOA sights. 1/2 MOA is still a bit of a pain to transition from 300 to 500, but not nearly as bad as 1/4 MOA clicks. It'll probably wear an ACOG by the end of the summer anyways.
Bottom line:
1. Chrome lining for longevity at the cost of velocity consistency due to plating thickness variation.
2. 1:7 for 300+ yard accuracy with 75/77gr ammo at the cost of longevity.
3. Fancy sights with fine adjustment capability at the cost of rapid, facile adjustment for target distance shifts.
An "Appleseed" AR should be a 500 yard capable gun, IMO. 1:9 is adequate for 20" hits at 500 yards. But, 1:9 is not a GI twist rate to my knowledge. We had a failed affair with 1:12 in VietNam that became apparent rather quickly, and we now run 1:7 on GI rifles. There might have been a 1:9 period for Uncle Sam at some point, but I couldn't tell you when.
And Appleseed teaches a "rack grade surplus rifle and issue ammo" to 500 yards.
I'm not sure where 1:9 came from... but given a choice between 1:9 and 1:7, I can promise you that 1:7 is the Rifleman's choice for hitting at 500 yards.
I don't care who you are... if you have shifting winds and a 1:12 twist barrel AR... a 1960's surplus M16 isn't going to connect at 500 yards reliably. "Surplus" only gets so far, and governments have to be smart in equipment purchases in the first place for that rule to hold true. Another example would be early 1940's Mosin Nagants. Hit-and-miss quality would be a generous appraisal.
The difference is crystal clear: It's a 20 shot string for me that sounds like "X-X-X-10-9-X-8" as I drift off target and screw up... versus "10-9-7-X-8-9-10" with that 9 twist.
A 7 twist isn't "High Power only" or "Elite" or "High Speed Low Drag" or any other silly title. Just good plain sense over a 9 twist.
My thoughts and experiences. I know I'll not be buying any more 9 twist AR's.
You've been given some good advice here, and now I'll toss in my 2 bits...
I ran through a RBC in 2010 with a chrome-lined 16" barrel from YHM, got 220's and 230's full distance. That rifle was capable of about 1 moa.
Then I decided to build an SPR, went with an 18" WOA SS barrel, that thing'll shoot 1/2 moa all day long... but I can't always do the same. :D
Last fall I decided to get silly and get a tax stamp and build an SBR. 12.5" chrome lined Bravo company upper. Found out this weekend that it'll do 1 moa no problem. Haven't shot it past 200yds yet, so no idea what I need for come-ups on it. But held 2" at 200 a little above point of aim with a 25/300 zero...
The point I'm trying to make is, do you want ultimate accuracy at the cost of a bit more cash up front and less longevity? Or save a little cash for chrome lined and lose some accuracy while SIGNIFICANTLY increasing longevity?