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While I like the history angle.... I don't think we should shoot these at Appleseed events.
We shot one of these in Corona a few months back... The entire line got quite a kick out of it. I'm curious to hear your reasons as to why we shouldn't be shooting these?
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Recall that in the NYT hit piece (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/magazine/01Appleseed-t.html?pagewanted=3&_r=2&hp) a quote from an instructor about fighting zombies was represented as a code word for "the unprepared." I'm not sure who the unprepared are or why they need fought but some media outlets apparently figure that AS + zombie = antigovernment militia.
It's a cool target but I think that in one stroke it runs the double risk of making AS look dangerous to some and ridiculous to others. DDs narrative is pretty clever, though. If I knew my audience very well I might use it as promo at a range day or something. Perhaps posting it at an appropriate distance and challenging some buddies to hit it (and handing them an AS trifold and schedule when they don't).
I am somewhat curious how this differs from referring to our targets as Redcoats and encouraging shooters to go for the head shot. These were specifically colored red to represent the Redcoats and I've heard it said more than once that they represent a "man-sized target". Seems to me that the emphasis placed on this could just as easily be construed in the same way if not worse.
These aren't replacing anything and they're not being shot throughout the day... this is the type of thing that occasionally gets pulled out in the right crowd at 2:30p on a Sunday when the line needs a mental break from the AQT grind. It's presented as a fun little joke. Hopefully, whoever has raised an instructor or shoot boss knows the person well enough to know that they'll present everything in the proper manner.
I have to say that I think it's a pretty far leap to go from a redcoat target to anti-government. There's a lot more things in the program that someone could easily latch on to if they wanted to deface Appleseed. Heck, the majority of that article... specifically the anti-government portion was about a man that had nothing to do with Appleseed. The people that would make such a large leap from that target are the people that have already found a million things to criticize.
As a note for accuracy, the article wasn't quoting an instructor (at least not at the time). It was quoting someone who was was approached and said to have the makings of a good instructor. Additionally, he wasn't quoted as saying that zombies represented the unprepared. That was an interpretation by the NYT writer not supported by any apparent quotes.
My personal interpretation of his quote was that when you pick up an AR, people expect you to be the type who's either preparing for the zombie apocalypse or wantin' to liberate hisself some guns from the Nat'l Guard Arm'ry... and then he made it clear that he wasn't either of those types of people.
FP, let's see if this works better as an explanation. Appleseed is a very well, if not highly structured program of marksmanship instruction used to expose sleeping Americans to their heritage in the hope of awakening a sufficient number to change the course of the country.
As such there is a program which must be followed closely. There are no Zombie targets shot as part of the events. As Slim indicated we use standard military targets. There are participants in our events who would be offended if we explained that these were originally an attempt to represent the head and shoulders of a prone enemy.
You might also consider that it is quite one thing to describe a battle, and another to go into the goriest of details about it. I have had people wince when telling how Issac Davis was shot through the heart spraying blood on those close to him. As a result I have tailored my presentation so as not too lose people by the mere telling of the story.
You just can't tell who might be offended, but you certainly can do your best not to offend anyone.
There is an old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", I believe that this applies here as well.
The Zombie deal is likely a passing fad which can do nothing to improve the intent or the execution of the mission. But could very well be used to disparage and ridicule it.
The TV on the couch is on point with our mission, zombies are not. Shoot the TV, it will likely do a better job of conveying our intent, and would be difficult for anyone to ever use in a derogatory way against Appleseed.
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Cool target! I can shoot on my property here, and I think my daughter and friends would get a kick out of it.
Use this target at an AS event here in of CA? Not a good idea for the reasons mentioned in the above posts. Sadly, there are some around these parts who would take something fun and instructive and use it against us :(
Wow a lot of feedback! haha.
I totally agree with what you guys are saying, and we wont be using them in the future. we were given them by the range so we used them, and the leftovers "krahnic" and I used in our spar time not at AS events.
The line DID get a kick out of them
and I absolutely agree with this:
Quote from: slim on March 27, 2012, 12:29:16 AM
...we need to make sure we stick to "historical" targets and we really, really, REEEEEAAALY need to make sure we stay away from "people-looking" targets.
I wasn't trying to start any trends, just mentioning something interesting that happened. ^-^
A little more on this :DH:
One thing to do on sun to break the routine is to do the "parker run and gun" this is always a sure way to perk up everyone and it tons of fun .
Someone want to start a new thread on "Parker " ;D
Does anybody have any of these in PDF? Cause I'd kinda like to shoot some when I'm on my own at the range.
Quote from: slim on March 27, 2012, 08:35:36 AM
I'm not disagreeing with anything you guys are saying. I'm simply pointing out the fact that it would be very easy for a picture of one of our attendees shooting this target to pop up somewhere and a very unfavorable caption accompanying it. You don't need to stretch your imagination too far to see where this could lead.
Shooting a lifeless, faceless "blob" of a single color - no matter what that's supposed to represent - is simply shooting a lifeless, faceless "blob" of a single color. It is historically based and has been the marksmanship training standard for over 100 years. It is above reproach, regardless of the insinuation made.
Zombies, Easter Bunnies, Santa Claus, and even the TV - are not. It's possible someone could say our targets represent those, or other things, but we have time-honored tradition on our side. With the other targets, not so much.
I realize it's no different... but that's me realizing that. We're not tailoring our program for guys like me. I get it. You get it. But that "casual observer" (who may even be against guns and shooting) may not see it the same way we do. We need to get them to our events, not scare them off because we "shoot whatever we want and we don't care how you feel about it." We're not that kind of program. We are a historically-based marksmanship instruction program..... that's really a heritage program!
This would be the Bigest resone we do not have Fleash Eatting Munant Zombie Paratrooper Monkey (FEMZPM's) Targets,,,even tho it is completly absured some one could and believe me they would twist it :DH:.
Wade
Actually I hear PETOCAC (People for the Ethical Treatment Of Cookies And Candy) is outraged about the occasional use of cookies and peppermints as Appleseed targets on Sundays.
:DH:
- ShadowMan
Quote from: ShadowMan on March 28, 2012, 02:12:27 PM
Actually I hear PETOCAC (People for the Ethical Treatment Of Cookies And Candy) is outraged about the occasional use of cookies and peppermints as Appleseed targets on Sundays.
:DH:
- ShadowMan
SHHH ! they did not know about till now !
I hate this PC stuff!
Quote from: Roland on March 28, 2012, 02:02:52 PM
Does anybody have any of these in PDF? Cause I'd kinda like to shoot some when I'm on my own at the range.
The ones we were given were full size like 2 ft by 3 ft targets. so .. can't print that out on your desk jet. just google zombie redcoat target. you can find pictures of them and i bet you could print out small versions of them. they are chest& up targets.. so.. yeah
Quote from: Johnnyappleseed on March 28, 2012, 02:22:26 AM
A little more on this :DH:
One thing to do on sun to break the routine is to do the "parker run and gun" this is always a sure way to perk up everyone and it tons of fun .
Someone want to start a new thread on "Parker " ;D
I want to hear moar!
I used the zombies last time because.. A.) they were free B.) I find the tank with the star boring.
One thing we did one time for a fun shoot.. idk if any of you have ever played the game portal
there's a big deal with gamers about "The Cake" "The cake is a lie" yada yada.. look up the game if you want more info.. its a FPS puzzle game.. pretty fun.. anyway
shoot the flame off the candle on the cake.. and you get.. idk whatever .. a gold sticky star.. haha that worked pretty well I though. kinda lame for people who don't know about the game though.
Quote from: Scottyl33t on March 29, 2012, 01:49:55 AM
Quote from: Johnnyappleseed on March 28, 2012, 02:22:26 AM
A little more on this :DH:
One thing to do on sun to break the routine is to do the "parker run and gun" this is always a sure way to perk up everyone and it tons of fun .
Someone want to start a new thread on "Parker " ;D
I want to hear moar!
I used the zombies last time because.. A.) they were free B.) I find the tank with the star boring.
One thing we did one time for a fun shoot.. idk if any of you have ever played the game portal
there's a big deal with gamers about "The Cake" "The cake is a lie" yada yada.. look up the game if you want more info.. its a FPS puzzle game.. pretty fun.. anyway
shoot the flame off the candle on the cake.. and you get.. idk whatever .. a gold sticky star.. haha that worked pretty well I though. kinda lame for people who don't know about the game though.
I hope you were asking about the " Parker run and gun " many ways of doing it, some better than others -- mine is not so hot but it's tons of FUN!!! ;D ;D
When the shoot needs a change -- Have atendee's post 1 target for how ever many shooters you want -- say 20 shooters -have them space 5 single targets -star or whatever ,at even intervals , then have them prep mags for lots of rounds 10-20-30 -40 whatever ,just fill lots of mags .
Then call water break , have some brief history , parker or whatever you want. Then tell one person --IIT attendee, RH child , it doesnt matter, that when you take off your hat or other signal ----(works best when everyone forgot about how many mags prepped or what targets they posted)
At the signal ,this person comes running up yelling --"Captain Parker , Captian Parker , captain Parker the REDCOATS are coming " he does this from a distance .
Then you say shooter s to line quickly and be safe -- you r prep period has begun and your prep period has ended -is the line ready etc .
then its joe jane bob tim janet --- engage target of the far left and do this down the line -- now comes the fun part - fire for gods sake fire as fast as you can --and this continues until all rounds are expended .
after line is safe each group eximines their target . And then the target which has the most of star shot out wins .
Its all lots of fun, hopefully others who have used this will add to my post and give more specifics .
BTW -- Iowa Mark at Colycats suggestion did this in Wynona , Minnesota 2008 -- my 1st shoot as a RedHat :D
This... sounds... AMAZING! ;D We've gotta do this at an upcoming shoot!
Johnnyappleseed said:
"BTW -- Iowa Mark at Colycats suggestion did this in Wynona , Minnesota 2008 -- my 1st shoot as a RedHat"
I was there, and it was fun. We've done it at other shoots, and it is always well received.
Coolest would be to get somebody dressed up as a reenactor , on a horse, to gallop up and deliver the alarm.
Oh man.. thats a great idea. might have to try that this weekend. although I imagine it's more fun that with the 2 or 3 people we have registered this weekend. :/ ill keep that in mind! haha
Quote from: Scottyl33t on March 29, 2012, 08:32:00 PM
Oh man.. thats a great idea. might have to try that this weekend. although I imagine it's more fun that with the 2 or 3 people we have registered this weekend. :/ ill keep that in mind! haha
Hopefully you will have some walk-ons. If you have 4 shooters, then teams of 2 will work, or you can give each shooter a star of their own and have them clear it the best they can.
- ShadowMan
Quote from: Kosciusko on March 29, 2012, 05:07:42 PM
Johnnyappleseed said:
"BTW -- Iowa Mark at Colycats suggestion did this in Wynona , Minnesota 2008 -- my 1st shoot as a RedHat"
I was there, and it was fun. We've done it at other shoots, and it is always well received.
Coolest would be to get somebody dressed up as a reenactor , on a horse, to gallop up and deliver the alarm.
That would be cool and if I were betting ,Minnesoto would be the 1st to do it !
BTW - I knew you would be a great assett to AS the 1st time we met, thanx for all you do O0
Only in Minnesota did I see guy show up in dress shirt riding a motercycle with a rifle , forget how he carried it :D(handelbars I think) .
Hope he and other s we met that day are still in the program.
I asked a few guys " Are you a farm boy " ? anyone recall this question?
At that time we were still doing eyes closed npao drill -- this event is where we saw a gal shoot out a 6 minute star with her eyes closed --- Yes Minnesota has lots folks ,doing the founders proud ;)
we ended up having 10 people, 9 pre-reg 1 walk on. so not a bad weekend, if you don't mind the rain
Normally we shoot in the rain, but it was sunny this morning, noone brought rain coats.. except Milo.. he had his full Duck Hunting gettup. haha
we quit at 3 today.. couldnt keep the targets on the backers, hopefully we will be able to resume tomorrow.
Quote from: Scottyl33t on March 31, 2012, 08:43:57 PM
we ended up having 10 people, 9 pre-reg 1 walk on. so not a bad weekend, if you don't mind the rain
Normally we shoot in the rain, but it was sunny this morning, noone brought rain coats.. except Milo.. he had his full Duck Hunting gettup. haha
we quit at 3 today.. couldnt keep the targets on the backers, hopefully we will be able to resume tomorrow.
3 is OK if you do benediction all day ;D
I try to have it wrapped up by 4 . As 4 posterity says -make them want more O0