I've done a couple of AS events now and really enjoyed them. So far, I've used a Mini-14. In the prone position under time pressure, it was difficult for me to get the hole in the front of the magazine to line up with that little retention nib when inserting the second magazine...and that was after hunting for the magazine slot in the first place. Having just completed Front Sight's 4-day Defensive Handgun course, I am even more aware of how quickly you lose fine motor skills under stress.
While I recognize that routine practice would help me overcome those obstacles with the Mini-14, I could simply eliminate both of them by switching to an AR-15 style rifle. I have had some reservations about the reliability of the AR-15 platform due to stories from the early years when there were problems getting the bolt to go into battery. I have also read on this board about some of the problems other members have had with their slings pulling the (hot) barrel out of alignment.
With these things in mind and without trying to ignite any lengthy debate, could some of you recommend a nice entry level AR-15 style rifle (in 5.56mm) with a heavy barrel? It would also be nice if you could point out specific manufacturers/models to stay away from. Finally, I'd love to hear comments about the reliability of the modern AR-15s.
I suppose I should add that I'm looking for a rifle to use mainly in "practical rifle" training, but which I could also sling up and use to shoot a Rifleman score. I'd like the base price of the rifle to be less than $1,000.00 U.S. I've already got optics, so they won't have to figure into that price.
Best regards,
Hoo boy. Here we go again.
OK. First off, a heavy barrel won't really help much with sling tension. Second, you have to be basically slung up so tight your fingertips are turning blue to move a government-profile barrel enough distance to make a big difference.
If you are still concerned about POI shift with a sling, what you want is a free-float tube.
Something like this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/122407/hogue-free-float-tube-handguard-ar-15-knurled-aluminum-black?cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Gunsmithing+-+AR-15+Furniture+and+Accessories-_-PriceCompListing-_-122407
Or This: http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=267
The latter one is nice because you can mount rails wherever you like. If you do get a replacement handguard, make sure it's not a quad rail, as those will eat your hands up for sure.
Companies to stay away from: DPMS (stands for Didn't Pass Mil Spec, is the joke), Bushmaster, Del-ton.
Good companies: Colt, Rock River Arms (some debate on this one), Palmetto State Armory, Bravo Company Manufacturing, Armalite, Daniel Defence, Sabre Defence (went out of business but their products can still be found.
My Personal recommendation: Buy a complete upper receiver, and build a lower from a parts kit. Building a lower can be accomplished in a couple of hours (or probably faster, if you're not me), no tools except a gunsmith's hammer and pin punches are needed.
You can save $150-200 by doing this.
My specific recommendation: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits/16-4150-chrome-lined-mid-length-rifle-kit.html built on whatever lower you can get. As long as the stripped lower is Mil-Spec, it doesn't matter. That company has theirs on sale for 49.95 occaisanlly.
All you need to add to that once it's built is a rear sight and mags/ammo, and you're ready to rock.
Reliability: not an issue anymore. SWAT magazine ran a Bravo Company AR through 31,000 rounds without cleaning it, with something like five malfunctions. If you shoot that much, you are either in deep trouble or have too much money for practice ammo.
Hopefully, you picked up some useful things from my rambling. If I can help anymore, please let me know.
Roland
One last thing. We don't discuss politics on here, but if you are going to buy, buy soon. If nothing else, I have heard from people in the industry that prices are going up, and aren't likely to stop for a while.
Have you had the chance to handle/shoot AR's?
You can still fumble a Mag Change/reload on an AR (I do anyway).
I have a 20" HBAR.
I didn't choose an HBAR, just happened to get the Rifle in a trade.
Not insanely heavy but not as nimble as the 16" ultralight weights that I have seen.
My Upper is an Olympic Arms.
Their lower end line had a spotty rep but their better Barrels are supposed to be good. Mine is more accurate than I am.
I got a Chip McCormick drop-in Trigger that is Excellent.
I got a Miculek Compensator that for me keeps the muzzle very flat in recoil.
As for bending the barrel with the sling....
I dunno.
I would think that a bad fit between the Upper and Lower would be a more likely issue.
For AS shooting I would recommend that you get PMags with the "Level" window so you can see how many rounds are loaded in the mag.
Or get one Clear mag
Well I wasn't going to comment but to counter one opinion, I will! :) Got 4 DPMS's, all light barrel, 2- 16", 1-20" and the other is an LR-10. They are all sub-moa rifles with my hand loads and never had a feed issue that wasn't magazine related and the problem children wasn't DPMS mags. We mostly run the 10 round DPMS polymer mags because the 30 rounders get in the way. The only after market toys of function, I put JP Enterprize triggers in all 4 after shooting one of them for a year in the 20". Just couldn't find a better trigger for the $$$. Yep, there are ones out there that are higher $$$ but I haven't seen any that are more functional......O.L.
Hi Roland,
Thank you for your reply. That is exactly the kind of matter-of-fact info and layout I was hoping for. (I'm really not interested in igniting any kind of debate here.) Please note that the upper you recommended at Palmetto State Armory is out-of-stock.
Building a rifle is a little more than I bargained for, but doable and I could find other ways to use the cash saved. However, my over-analytical tendencies combined with the myriad kit options would probably hinder my actual purchase.
Justsomedude,
Thanks for adding your experience here. I definitely enjoy firearms, but must say that I prefer to perform as few modifications to them as possible. Like everyone, my "spare" time is spread thin, so I'd like to have a rifle I can just pull out of the box and go. Maybe when I retire I'll have time to tweak its performance, but right now I'm doing good to get to the range on a routine basis. :)
Anyone else care to offer suggestions?
As far as off-the shelf rifles, I prefer Armalite.
Big fan of their HBAR 20" rifle, but if you are looking for a 16" they make those too..
If you don't mind building your own rifle, look into Model 1 Sales. They offer complete kits, that allow you to fully customize your entire build. Just add stripped lower receiver, and you've got *everything* aside from ammo and extra mags.
I'd personally go with this setup:
http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=79
I can't emphasize here enough how happy I am with my colt target match AR. I bought this rifle in 1999 and have never had a problem with it. Being a target match it is a little heavy but it's dead on at 500 yds. I just recently changed the trigger to a Geissele. Not something you have to do but boy is it sweet. The prices have come down since 1999. I'm considering another just like it. Colt is barrelled in 5.56. That's my .02 cents . Regards, Two Wolves
Regarding brands, you'll get as many opinions as days in the year. Stick with any of named brands above and you'll do fine. I recommend sticking with a 20" barrel in a Service Rifle Competition set up. If you're going to spend extra money on any item, spend it on the barrel and trigger.. Don't be intimidated by the consideration of "building" a lower.. It's so simple even a caveman can do it, with minimal investment in the proper tools... My 02.
BeSwift
I've got way more than a little experience with AR's, they're great rifles.
I'll mention that most of my experience has been with Colt rifles, but other brands are good. Currently I own one I built on Anvil Arms receivers, my girlfriend has one built on a Bushmaster, both 16" barrel M4 clones. I also have a Dane Armory lower that's getting built into a 20" heavy barrel M16A4 clone.
Building one is fairly easy, it's more that you "assemble" one, not build it. No complicated tools required.
I'd go for the 1-9" twist barrel, ammo is pretty universal then.
Two words: Rock River
Quote from: ItsanSKS on March 26, 2012, 07:45:52 PM
If you don't mind building your own rifle, look into Model 1 Sales.
I have heard some really, really, low opinions on Model 1. I've also heard some that say they are all right. So, the advice I can offer is, do your research.
Both Model 1 and DPMS seem to gather the same kind of opinions. People generally seem to agree they are accurate, and fine for average range use, but might choke under pressure.
AlaSprout, you said you wanted to use this rifle for practical training. I might suggest talking to these trainers.
When I did this kind of research, I wanted one rifle that would do it all. Of course, that's impossible. But, I think I came reasonably close. I built a PSA 16'' Midlength 1:7'' twist with Magpul MOE furniture. I added a Magpul BAD, a GG&G ranging BUIS, and an ARES Armor sling. In my opinion, this rifle setup can handle everything from CQB to 400 yards fine.
Talk to as many people as you can. Everybody has an opinion. AR15.com and zombiesquad.org are both other fantastic resources, there are way more people on those sites that know everything there is to know about the AR platform.
Roland
Quote from: Roland on March 26, 2012, 11:35:25 PM
AlaSprout, you said you wanted to use this rifle for practical training. I might suggest talking to these trainers.
I don't know why I didn't think of that! I'll try to make contact with the trainers at Front Sight. I have a lifetime membership there and I intend to wear them out! :)
Quote from: Roland on March 26, 2012, 11:35:25 PM
...I built a PSA 16'' Midlength 1:7'' twist with Magpul MOE furniture. I added a Magpul BAD, a GG&G ranging BUIS, and an ARES Armor sling.
I'm sorry...I only speak English could you translate? :)
Get on your local gun forum (We have a good one here on our concealed carry site. Swapgiant.com is good too. And you can't go wrong with armslist.com) and find one that's "used but still in good shape" for about $750. Then buy a couple mags and $200 worth of ammo.
Take it out to the range and shoot the crap out if.
ARs are Barbie rifles. Somewhere along the way you'll figure out what you like and what you want on your "practical rifle"and you can customize it exactly how you want.
We could debate it all day but you will like something someone else doesn't. They will like something you don't. And that's the beauty of it.
ARs are like women. Each one is different and each one is finicky but she's very special and once you learn what she likes and how to treat her, she'll love you forever. Treat her like a lady!
(ooooh ooooh.... treat her like a laaaady!)
I have a Smith and Wesson M&P-15 16" barrel (M4gery). My only issue with it is the forearm is so short that it is difficult to sling up. I also reccomend going with a 20" barrel and a longer forearm for it. My next AR will likely be custom with a heavy 24inch stainless barrel. I can help a bit with the jargon: BUIS=Back Up Iron Sights. Welcome to what is called black rifle disease. There is treatment, (buying more) but no cure ;D
My first AR was a Rock River Predator Pursuit with 20" SS barrel. 8) Medium-heavy barrel, free floated tube fore-end. QD sling stud on the forearm but not 1913 rails all over it. Wylde chamber so it'll shoot milsurp ammo. DI action rather than a piston system. Rails for iron sights of your choice. I added a riser block and conventional scope, and low-end folding BUIS. It's more of a varmint rifle than battle carbine. Slightly over a grand when I got mine, prices do vary with time and place.
I still like it, a lot! :~ But opinions are like ... noses (everybody has one). And differences of opinion are what make horse races. But you could do a lot worse, for Appleseeds or hunting or serious social purposes, if (God forbid!) it ever comes to that.
Quote from: AlaSprout on March 27, 2012, 12:09:47 AM
Quote from: Roland on March 26, 2012, 11:35:25 PM
...I built a PSA 16'' Midlength 1:7'' twist with Magpul MOE furniture. I added a Magpul BAD, a GG&G ranging BUIS, and an ARES Armor sling.
I'm sorry...I only speak English could you translate? :)
First off, quite frankly, the guys at Front Sight have forgotten more about AR's then I will ever know.
OK: 16'' barrel. Minmum Legal length without paying for a tax stamp. Generally agreed to be a good compromise between maneuverability and accuracy. Midlength refers to a 9''' gas tube instead of a 7'' gas tube, like the military M4 carbine has. That increases reliability and accuracy. 1:7'' is the rate of rifling. This is optomized for the 62 grain bullets, but will shoot everything from 52 to 77 grains. Also generally agreed to be a good compromise and allow you to shoot pretty much anything with decent accuracy. Magpul MOE furniture is a stock, pistol grip, and handguard made by Magpul. PSA had a deal on it, so I figured I could sell it later if I didn't like it. And the Magpul BAD allows you to release the bolt in prone without taking your hand off the rifle.
Roland
AlaSprout,
Some AR Mods are performance 'tweaks' and are difficult, time consuming, expensive, require tools....
Others are quick drop in changes that can be major improvements.
One in particular that was mentioned above is the Magpul BAD Lever.
I think they are around $30
Allows you to drop the bolt with your right hand without releasing your grip or losing your Cheekweld.
It would be very useful for shooting an AR with a Sling (AS style).
I'm adding one soon...would have been very handy during my AS last weekend.
I have a BAD Lever (so much for not drinking the Magpul kool-aid.... although I'll NEVER! buy a PMAG!) on mine and it is super helpful for AQTs. Just be sure you know how to "do it right" before relying on the BAD Lever.
Also, a big +1 for the ASAP plate and the RSA buckle. Makes sling mount/dismounts easy. I can switch from tactical operator to AS purist in no time flat.
With the comments regarding if a 20" or 16" barrel is better, it depends on what you're using this AR for, what sight system you'll be using, and what your body type/'dimensions' are.
If you plan on doing some door-kicking classes/any kind of CQB stuff with this rifle as well, get a 16" barrel. If you're mounting a scope on your AR, then 4" more is not going to cause a noticeable jump in accuracy. (For 4MOA shooting, velocity isn't a huge issue.) However, when shooting with iron sights on an AR, you'll want a longer sight-radius to make shooting accurately easier, making the 20" a better choice. But, if the 20" upper doesn't feel right, and if you won't be able to shoot it well, then don't get it. The midlength is a great 'comprimise' for this problem, but IMHO, it's the best of both worlds and not really a comprimise.
Regardless of barrel length, I would encourage getting a free-float hand-guard, as I've seen too many POI shifts without these (particularly when slung up tight).
Oh, for your first AR, make sure that it can shoot 5.56 (military surplus) and not just .223 Remington. Remember, 5.56's will shoot .223, but .223's will NOT shoot 5.56 (unless you want a blown up barrel).
If building a lower (which is not hard), then go with quality parts; cheaper quality parts from lower grade manufacturerers are more likely to brake and possible make your rifle double fire (or maybe even go full auto).
Accessories? A B.A.D. Lever from Magpul is a wonderful little thing. Ebay has them for about $20 or $25.
MAGPUL furniture (pistol grip, stock, forends, etc.) is great, but it's all about personal preference.
I have a Bushmaster Custom Shop AR mid-length gas-system, medium to heavy weight 1-in-7 twist 16" barrel with a free-float Yankee Hill Machine free-float hand-guard, YHM iron-sights. It has a MAGPUL pistol grip, stock, B.A.D. Lever, and ASAP butt-plate (plus a few other non-AS endorsed additions :) )
See what you can handle and play around with a little bit (and shoot, if possible) before you buy. Once you do buy, keep in mind that you can change and accessorize the AR more than any other centerfire rifle.
Welcome to ever-growing AR ownership club. O0
Slim,
What do you have against PMAG?
I got them because they were recommended and inexpensive and easy to find.
They're WAY better than the beat up GI mags that I got (free) with my Rifle :)
John
Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMSlim,
What do you have against PMAG?
What I have against them is every keyboard commando out there swears you need them and they're 3x the cost of USGI mags.
Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMI got them because they were recommended
By the guys on arfcom?
Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMand inexpensive and easy to find.
I wish I had your budget!
Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMThey're WAY better than the beat up GI mags that I got (free) with my Rifle :)
Please define "WAY better" for me.
Get a basic rifle. Learn it for a year. Buy nothing more than the bare necessities.
Then after your one year anniversary, go and begin to spend money on every little doodad that pleases your heart and expands the economy.
Just understand that 99.99% of them are completely unnecessary.
Buy a good shoe and learn to run before buying 100 shoes of every color to fill your closets with.
Why? Because it is about you, a little bit about the rifle, and nothing at all to do with distracting little doodads.
Larue is great stuff. It is also iKea for black rifle people.
Stick with the part that matters -> You.
Ah.
So nothing against them really other than price.
Mine were less than $15 each with a discount special online.
I was thrilled that 'the good ones' were that cheap.
My GI Mags are beat up and have sharp edges that cut my hands up when reloading. I wrapped them in Gaffer tape :)
They also didn't seat consistently.
Quote from: slim on March 28, 2012, 05:26:29 PM
Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMSlim,
What do you have against PMAG?
What I have against them is every keyboard commando out there swears you need them and they're 3x the cost of USGI mags.
Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMI got them because they were recommended
By the guys on arfcom?
Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMand inexpensive and easy to find.
I wish I had your budget!
Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMThey're WAY better than the beat up GI mags that I got (free) with my Rifle :)
Please define "WAY better" for me.
I like the magpul moa front handgrip. It feels better than the A2 style.
I got a bunch of GI mags from a guy for $4.50 with free shipping. Just saying.
for inexpensive GI milsurp mags, PMAGS, etc.,
try ar15.com -->> ar15 mags forum
I see used GI 30-rdrs dumped for $5-8, new milsurp 30-rdrs for $9-10
right now, there is a guy looking to offload 18 C-Products 20-rounders for $135 shipped. that's $7.50 each, not as good as CDNN on promo ($5.99), but mags have gone up since the first of the year.
I have several different makes but why not go with Armalite the originator of the AR (Armalite Rifle). They always rank right up there in the polls. Now that I've been into AR's a bit I'll build using a good/great barrel and good/great trigger depending what I want to spend - everything else if to MilSpec. is personal preference.
There are several reasons why I like PMAGS over GI. They are really easy to find (Midway, Brownells, CheaperThanDirt, ANY gun store, etc.). The 30 rounders usually cost about $14, so maybe a buck or two more than GI mags, but they are a TON easier to clean, included dust-cover takes stress off feed-lips which keeps them from braking/bending, a lot easier to load with ammo, they always seat properly in all the rifles I've shot them in, they're tougher than nails (run 'em over with cars and trucks, and they don't bust), and they don't rust.
Just couple reasons why I buy PMAGS, but that's just my .02
Slim and I have had endless arguments on these points and have pretty much agreed to disagree.
There's no one right mag or accessory for AR's...that's why there are so many different types... :)
Oh, one more thing: Buy a LULA loader if you don't have one. Yes, that means you. Your fingers thank you.
My wife and I each have a Lula loader for our handguns. It's a wonderful thing, indeed! Thanks to all who have contributed here.
I realized that my original post could ignite some debate. That's why I specifically tried to limit my request to , "could some of you recommend a nice entry level AR-15 style rifle (in 5.56mm) with a heavy barrel". With all of the input, I am starting to get an idea of what to put together for my first AR. However, I really wonder if there isn't some basic package that could be recommended (at least by Appleseed shoot bosses) for a first AR.
Case in point: If asked for an entry level rimfire rifle for Appleseed events, I'd be willing to bet that 95%+ of the responses on here would be, "Go get a Ruger 10/22, put sling mounts on it, a GI sling, and maybe add Tech Sights or a 4x scope from Nikon. End of story. It's called the Liberty Training Rifle. I probably wouldn't hear a word about Marlin or Savage or trigger replacements, urethane bolt bumpers, and Ramline magazines.
I totally understand that the AR platform is extremely well represented in the market and aftermarket and that everyone has their personal preferences. (It's kind of like having a LEGO set. :) ) However, I'd be willing to bet that if some of the shoot bosses/instructors put their heads together with the goal of coming up with a centerfire, AR-style "Liberty Training Rifle", it could be done.
In fact, I'd like to issue that as an informal challenge to the Appleseed organization. Everyone I've met in this organization has been extremely selfless and giving of their time and expertise. I've never heard anyone at an AS event criticize a student for their choice of rifle or tout theirs as the best. I know a group of you could get together and lay aside personal preferences to figure out what would be best for the entry level centerfire AR shooter. Any takers?
I think we can. One question before I brainstorm: Is this strictly for Appleseed, or is it intended as an all-around, do anything rifle?
Roland
Centerfire LTR=CMP M1 ;D $525FG $625SC
Quote from: Roland on March 29, 2012, 09:20:15 PM
I think we can. One question before I brainstorm: Is this strictly for Appleseed, or is it intended as an all-around, do anything rifle?
I don't think it would be fair to ask you guys to spend your time on anything other than something for Appleseed. That should help keep things focused, too.
There are several out there for <$700 but just make certain what you get is Mil-Spec so you can swap parts.
Trust me on this if you think you might be interested in CMP or NRA Service Rifle competition do yourself a favour a just bite the bullet and buy an Armalite or RRA National Match in either A2 or A4 format right away, you will save yourself money in the long run.
I'd also recommend assembling your lower: not only do you save some considerable funds, but it gets your hands and mind engaged in the inner workings of your rifle, which is great! I set up an AR for Appleseed myself some months ago, and if I had to do it all over again, I'd probably go for this:
a 20", heavy barreled rifle kit from Palmetto State Armory: $565 shipped (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits/20-chrome-lined-heavy-profile-barrel-rifle-kit.html)
You mentioned you were planning on using optics, and that you already had them, I'll just recommend that you look into the LaRue mounts for getting things low and forward: when you're all slung up, nose to charging handle... you'll want that optic low and forward! The forged front sight won't be an issue with 98% of optics set ups.
Others have mentioned the BAD lever: on my civilian rifle, I run one, but at work I have to do things the old fashioned way: both ways work, but I prefer the BAD for Appleseed to keep things smooth. That said, I induced a few malfunctions before I was familiar with the setup... hit my mag release (hard) thinking it was the BAD, bolt went into battery from the shock (normal), and I was the proud owner of the one shot AR until I figured out what I had done. Not my smartest moment, but easy to work the muscle memory in with that dry fire practice!
I personally use the 20rd PMAGs for Appleseed, but not for the reasons most do: I just prefer the rounded edges, as I handle them somewhat roughly, and they come out of the USGI bandoleers significantly easier than the sharp edged USGI 20 rounders. They also stay off the deck in prone, and drop free of the magwell without fouling on the deck. They're not terribly expensive, and reliable.
While sling tension can and will affect your POI, I find the way Appleseed teaches to put tension on the sling in all position mitigates this: because you're always slung up, you'll never notice the difference!
Quote from: AlaSprout on March 29, 2012, 11:36:26 PM
I don't think it would be fair to ask you guys to spend your time on anything other than something for Appleseed. That should help keep things focused, too.
This is just my honest opinion, but for a dedicated Appleseed AR, the best choice is an A3 type rifle: 20" barrel, standard triangle shape front-sight (either A2 or A3), detatchable carry handle in the back (in case you want to mount optics), maybe an after-market free-float if you feel that you POI is moving because of sling-tension...
and that's it. If a 20" barrel is too long to handle, get a 16" barrel with either a carbine or midlength gas system, whichever one fits you.
If you want, get a good drop in trigger from Geissele or CMMG to make shooting a little easier. But try to qualify with the stock AR trigger first.
As far as companies that make this set-up, give Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, and Rock River Arms a try.
Just like a .22 LTR, an 'AR LTR' should be kept simple and to a minimum.
My .02
Yeah. If you aren't planning on doing CQB with it, get a 20'' barreled flattop. .PPT ranger recommended the PSA kit. Get that, one of their lowers (if they come on sale again), a rear BUIS ( not necessary) the sling of your choice, and some ammo, and your GTG.
Otherwise, build a 16''' middy. The rest still appplies.
Roland
I agree with GoldFish specs with the addition of staying with an A2 style stock, I'd also put a full float tube on it so the sling pressure won't impact POI. You can get out of hand with this if you let it - see below.
Think hard about either a RRA or Armalite National Match as the way to go for a couple of hundred more than a base AR.
I shot RM with a stock 10/22 you should be able to do the same with a nearly stock AR
Don't get crazy! (at least right away)
Here is a big $$ approach
I have about $1k into my 10/22 tac driver that I built after shooting RM:
20" Fluted SS GM barrel, KIDD 2 Stage trigger with long mag release, KIDD bolt, Tech-Sights, buffer pin, I went through 3 stocks before I found the one I like the Pro Mag Archangel Deluxe Target. I have shot a 242 with this rifle.
Appleseed AR15 tac driver build specs - way overkill:
Upper - you wanted to use optics so you need to start with a flattop receiver get one with a side charging handle & bolt, much easier to operate than the std charging handle.
20" barrel 1-7 twist - with flash hinder because it protects barrel from damage
.223 Wylde Chamber - considered one of the most accurate
Float tube forearm - because sling pressure won't change POI - no quad rails
If you like the standard GI look get top quality thermoset handguards - You have to order a special float tube that fits under the handguards. Again stay away from quad rails they will chew up hand/gloves.
If you go with the GI style forearm & float tube there are lead weights kits so you can add some weight to balance the rifle and make it more stable (for A2 buttstock too) get the weight up around 15-16lbs and it's perfect (for me anyway).
You could add a carry handle with sights at any time but then you also need a front sight.
Lower - AX556 Full Ambi Lower Receiver (all controls on both sides), add a Geissele 2 stage Match trigger and an A2 style stock. 10 or 20 round mags. I like the 20 round pmags too.
If you shop right you would be in it for about $1,700 w/o optics but then you could add a nightforce scope for another $2K
I will add an observation about the 16". I have one and the front sight is right at the edge of my aging eyes ability to focus. I had a really hard time with it at Appleseed. Not being able to keep the front sight in clear focus was a big deal. So depending on your age, there could be more to factor in to the barrel length.
I've built 8 AR15s over the years using various parts and uppers, many bought used. IMO, just about any 16" or 20" bbl is accurate enough for AS. Just about any lower receiver with basic parts is good enough. Everything else (stocks, grips etc) is just preference or how much FOO-FOO you want to put on your rifle.
My only "real" AR is a S&W M&P 15 ORC (Optics Ready Carbine) which was a retirement gift.
In other words, just about any off the shelf AR or parts kit is good enough for AS or everyday use.
If however you intend to shoot in those run and gun, shoot thousands of rounds in a weekend training schools you should consider a few higher end parts or at least have spare parts available. Kind of like taking your daily driver to a race track and expecting it to hold up. Ain't gonna happen.
Personally I am more of a KISS guy. My go to AR is an 16" carbine with a A1 light weight bbl upper, basic CAR stocks, on a Stag lower with GI mags. It is light, handy, has basic A1 sights. No optics, no chrome lining, no lights, lasers, rails or other FOO-FOO. No designer parts, stocks, grips. Nothing with a word that begins with a Mag or La on it. Just a basic carbine which has worked for me for the last 20 years. And yeah, I can shoot rifleman with it.
+1 for Mac66. No foo foo necessary.
And just something for all you guys to consider. If you're dropping several grand on ONE rifle, consider how many trainers that would buy and the number of people you could teach to shoot 4 MOA with those rifles.
+ another for Mac66 w/ one caveat for versatility.
I do loan my personal dedicated .22 upper unit to attendees. (My M&P 15, No)
It is equipped with a Magpul stock, which can be adjusted to fit
just about anyone, wearing any sort of clothing. Other than that, no goodies, they just get in the way.
That's my "foo, foo" and I am sticking with it. :pop:
Quote from: GEmanuel on March 30, 2012, 04:35:57 PM
+ another for Mac66 w/ one caveat for versatility.
I do loan my personal dedicated .22 upper unit to attendees. (My M&P 15, No)
It is equipped with a Magpul stock, which can be adjusted to fit
just about anyone, wearing any sort of clothing. Other than that, no goodies, they just get in the way.
That's my "foo, foo" and I am sticking with it. :pop:
Ok, everbody is allowed a little FOO for versatility sake. Just never go FULL FOO-FOO. :slap:
You went full foo foo, didn't ya?
Like the foo fooest mother to ever walk the earth. You never go full foo man. Shoot, everybody know that. Full foo foo. Darn.
HUuuuuuzzah!
Quote from: slim on March 30, 2012, 09:48:56 PM
You went full foo foo, didn't ya?
Like the foo fooest mother to ever walk the earth. You never go full foo man. Shoot, everybody know that. Full foo foo. Darn.
HUuuuuuzzah!
Semi-Foo, yes. Full Foo, no. You went full foo, man. Never go full foo. You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full foo, went home empty handed...
Now, who's full of FOO! **)
Gentlemen,
Would there be anything wrong with the Colt Model LE6920MP-B as an Appleseed rifle?
http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtCarbinesII.aspx
Is that vertical foregrip removable? Is there a convenient way to attach a 1 1/4" sling to the fore-end?
Assuming the answer to both of those is "yes," it looks fine to me. I'm not familiar with that particular model.
I've used the 14.5" barrel version of their LE6920SOCOM model, and found it pretty good. Mine had covers over those "cheese graters, though. My current AR is a pretty close copy of it, sling mounts under the barrel (better than beside the sight) and the barrel is a 1-9" twist (and the barrel is 16" of course).
Quote from: AlaSprout on April 14, 2012, 09:17:46 PM
Gentlemen,
Would there be anything wrong with the Colt Model LE6920MP-B as an Appleseed rifle?
http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtCarbinesII.aspx
Normally the vertical grip is easily removable and you just use a clamp on type sling swivel on the Picatinny rail. Should work fine for Appleseed.
Nope, there's nothing wrong with that. I personally believe there are better options for Appleseed, as I've stated, but you can't go wrong with a Colt.
Outside of the short sight radius and the short forend, it looks fine. As you solicited reccomendations, mine is go with a 20 inch barrel and a full forend. Those are the issues I fight on my M4gery. Can it work? Oh yeah! Can it be improved on? I think it can.
When I first bought my Ar I just got the low end DPMS Vietnam style one that didn't even have a dust cover. And I shot the hell out of it while I built a custom upper that was exactly what I wanted. As I got the money I built a flat top upper with a med hvy mil spec barrle free float barrel and a piston system. Then once I got it exactly how I wanted I swapped the uppers out and sold my old one to my buddie who wanted it and it paied for a good deal of my new one. If your worried about it getting "dirty" look into a piston system mine is fantastic, I've got 12 years with the AR rifle and I will never go back to blow back gas systems ever again, at least not for my personal rifle.
Also I feel you need to know a little about the history of the rifle before you judge it on its malfunctions. Back in Vietnam when it was first issues it was called "self cleaning" was not cromelined in any way whatsoever, and wasn't even issued with a cleaning kit. It was hailed to the troops as the space rifle that never needed to be cleaned. After a short time in the field it's short commings were made apparent and cleaning kits where then issued. Also the new rifles that were issued where Crome lined which cut down on fowling as well.
As I mentioned before I have 12 years with these rifles, and multiple deployments down range as well and I can tell you that 99.9% of malfunctions I had with my weapon was due to bad magazines. When you buy mags go with magpul they may be a little more expensive but I'll be damned if you don't get what you pay for.
~PlatzOut~
So, what's the difference between a "Direct Gas System" (this rifle) and a "Piston System"?
Direct Gas Impingement rifles have a vent hole a ways down the barrel, and a tube that runs from the "gas block" and takes pressure, (from behind the bullet, after it passes the vent hole) carries it to the receiver, and uses that pressure to push the bolt carrier back and operate the action. The pressure then vents into the receiver.
Piston rifles have a similar vent that lets the same pressure push a piston, which pushes an actuator rod, which pushes the bolt carrier back, via a mechanical linkage. After pushing the piston, the pressure vents from the piston housing, mounted out on the barrel, well forward of the receiver.
Others will undoubtedly add more details, but, in general, DGI rifles will crud up with powder gas residue over time, in general "run dirtier." Critics describe that as "pooping where it eats."
Piston rifles run cleaner, but have more parts and are a little heavier and cost a little more money, all other things being equal.
The original Stoner system, and current military AR-platform rifles, are DGI actions. They came first; piston-based AR-platform rifles are a more recent innovation.
All either system does is onlock the bolt, past that it's a recoil operated semi just like a 10-22. Those who will use it as a "rifle", 200-300 hundered rounds between cleanings, the gas system isn't a big deal. Those who want to spray and pray a 1000 or more rounds per afternoon, the piston is the way to go, cleaner and cooler....O.L.
Cooler + Cleaner= Longevity. Yes it's a little more expensive, but it will last longer and really if you look at one of these no name company's that make ar's you can pick up a decent one for $400-500 bucks, if you look at Colt or Any other "high end" AR platforms your going to spend between $1,100-2,100 and for what just a name, and most people once they spend that much on their rifle they don't want to do anything to it. You can get an Adam's Arms piston kit for under $400 or a complete upper for $1,200.
My advice would be, to go to a 3rd party sight that has reviews of their products look at all the low end Ar's find a few that you like and check out the reviews, then buy it because in about 2 years all that you will have left of that original AR will be the lower receiver and possiblely the upper receiver and it gives you more free cash for upgrades.
Thanks for all the input so far. :)
How are BUIS used when a scope is mounted? Does the scope have to be removed?
Depends on what kind of optic you have on your rifle, I run a TA-31-RCO which you have to remove, also if you used a traditional rifle scope you would have to remove it as well. If you have a 68 (aim point comp 2 or 3) or a SU-231/PEQ (EoTech M553) you can use your iron sights right through it, this is called Co-witnessing. But almost any optic you get now days you can either purchase with or pick up aftermarket quick disconnect. But beware any time you take off your optics they have to be re zeroed, it may not be off by much when you go back to make your adjustments but it will be off.
~PlatzOut~
When a scope with magnification past 1.1X is mounted, then the BUIS are not going to be seen through the optic. They are there in case you aren't using your scope for any reason (such as if it brakes or if you just want to swithc to irons). If using a variable power scope with the option of a 1X magnification or maybe a red-dot optic, also with 1X/no magnification, then, as Sergeant Platz stated, you can 'co-witness' your irons through the optic. However, unless you're doing some sort of 'tactical'/CQB course, then you should probably just use one at a time; using both when engaging targets at 100 yds (simulated distance or KD), you should just use the optic OR the sights. And DEFINITELY keep in mind, as SSG Platz also stated, that unless you get a LaRue Tactical mount, your optics will almost certainly need re-zeroed after being removed.
Quote from: AlaSprout on April 17, 2012, 03:39:39 PM
Thanks for all the input so far. :)
How are BUIS used when a scope is mounted? Does the scope have to be removed?
http://www.milcopptactical.com/fighting.htm (http://www.milcopptactical.com/fighting.htm)
An excellent article on setting up a fighting carbine. A bit different from a standard Appleseed rifle, but still good reading.
That is a good artical, can't argue with anything he says. If you do decide to get an optic most are 4moa dots which put you right were you need to be for Appleseed. Trijicon has a triangle in theirs that if used correctly will give you quick target accusion for close up, and finer aiming for distance target. I'm just a big fan of trijicon because the founder was a divout Christian.
My M4 clone wears a MATECH BUIS and an Aimpoint CompM4 (2 MOA red dot). That's the same stuff my issue M4 started and ended with (it had an ACOG between those times).
If I wish to use irons all I need to do is make sure the Aimpoint is switched off, and flip the rear sight blade up.
(http://www.cgwgun.com/images/products/matech.jpg)
You guys are really helping me zero in on my first AR. (Pun intended.) Keep the info coming.
Anything you want to know in particular?
Hay Nickle, that rear sight is good, in fact I have one of those some where, but I swithed over to the GG&G spring loaded pop ups. no partular reason, I just liked them
Also AlaSprout, you will find that over time your rifle will evolve, you will find new furnature, as well as gagets that you like and want to put on it as new stuff comes out. Thats the awsome thing about AR's they are like Lego set for grown men, everything can be changed. Like i said eariler the only thing that is still "stock" on mine is the lower reciever, and just that, my trigger guard, and trigger are both aftermarket as well. I also have a bunch of junk that I really dont need but its tati-cool!
OK Guys,
I went down to the gun store to buy the Colt Model LE6920MP-B (basically a Colt M4) on Saturday. I took my AS sling to see how comfortable the two basic sling positions would be with this short rifle. It was then that I realized 2 important things:
1) There is no rear sling loop or mount point on the Magpul stock i.e. for a QD sling mount;
2) The front sling mount is fixed (riveted) to the forend, which would make the sitting & prone sessions tough having to remove the sling from my arm instead of from the rifle
I left without purchasing the rifle. Any suggestions as to how I might make this work?
For starters, you fight like you train, so train as you fight, it's a bad habbit to get into taking your sling off at the DQ instead of taking it off your arm. I would bet you I can take mine off and on just as fast as you can connect and disconnect that swivel stud.
2nd, if you want a swivel stud, get yourself a rifle with a "free float" barel. Then get yourself a removable front sight, and a YHM sling swivel adapter.
~PlatzOut~
+1 again on what Sergeant Platz stated. Practice taking the sling off your arm (like was originally taught) and you'll be blazing fast at it.
Now with regard to the MagPul stock not having a sling attachment point. 5 minutes and you're good to go. I have a MagPul stock that I drilled a whole going straight up at the back of the stock; I then screwed in an Uncle Mikes short swivel made for wood stocks, and it's worked perfectly fine ever since. In the mean time, you can get a zip-tie, put it through the little hole on the bottom/back of the stock, and then attach a QD swivel through that. This will work too if you don't want to permanently alter the MagPul stock.
Quote from: AlaSprout on April 23, 2012, 12:06:21 AM
OK Guys,
I went down to the gun store to buy the Colt Model LE6920MP-B (basically a Colt M4) on Saturday. I took my AS sling to see how comfortable the two basic sling positions would be with this short rifle. It was then that I realized 2 important things:
1) There is no rear sling loop or mount point on the Magpul stock i.e. for a QD sling mount;
2) The front sling mount is fixed (riveted) to the forend, which would make the sitting & prone sessions tough having to remove the sling from my arm instead of from the rifle
I left without purchasing the rifle. Any suggestions as to how I might make this work?
Great! Glad to know this is an option. I performed some similar surgery on my old Mini-14 and it worked well.
Quote from: GoldFish on April 23, 2012, 10:40:52 AMNow with regard to the MagPul stock not having a sling attachment point. 5 minutes and you're good to go. I have a MagPul stock that I drilled a whole going straight up at the back of the stock; I then screwed in an Uncle Mikes short swivel made for wood stocks, and it's worked perfectly fine ever since.
Quote from: SSG Platz on April 23, 2012, 12:23:43 AM
For starters, you fight like you train, so train as you fight, it's a bad habbit to get into taking your sling off at the DQ instead of taking it off your arm. I would bet you I can take mine off and on just as fast as you can connect and disconnect that swivel stud.
2nd, if you want a swivel stud, get yourself a rifle with a "free float" barel. Then get yourself a removable front sight, and a YHM sling swivel adapter.
~PlatzOut~
With a QD...Maybe...With the "J" hook, no way! :)....O.L.
Gentlemen,
Thank you all for your advice over the last several weeks. I am now the proud owner of a Colt Model LE6920MP-B. (Actually, despite being identical to the photo on Colt's website, the stamp on the receiver says "M4".) Thus begins my odyssey with the AR!
:pics:
Congrats! Now for the accessorizing!
Good luck and God bless!
~PlatzOut~
I wondered if someone was actually going to use that HUGE "smiley"! :) Pics will have to wait until another day. I'm late for bed and have to get up early for the 2 hour drive to Smyrna for an Appleseed using my ROC. (No, not with the new rifle. I'll be shooting my wife's 10/22 LTR.)
Quote from: The Wolfhound on April 27, 2012, 09:47:51 PM
:pics:
Congrats! Now for the accessorizing!
So, I took the new rifle out to the range to zero it in the other day and had no trouble adjusting windage on the rear by hand. However, I can't seem to find the right tool to adjust the front sight. It looks like the standard AR front sight (triangle), but neither of the front sight adjustment tools I've purchased will fit. The post has a place for 4 prongs, but this 4-prong DPMS tool ( http://www.midwayusa.com/product/304696/dpms-front-sight-adjusting-tool-4-prong-ar-15-a2-steel ) is too small in diameter, despite being labeled specifically as an M4 sight adjustment tool.
I called MidwayUSA and they couldn't figure it out. Then I called Colt, gave them the serial number, and they couldn't tell me what sight adjustment tool I needed. What gives?
Use the tip of a 5.56 cal bullet. That's what it's designed for.
I've seen a lot of ARs with folks familiar with them and some NIB when they arrived. My advice is to keep using the Mini14 and keep going to Appleseeds. When you finally break 210 become an instructor. Then work 12 shoots a year and bug every instructor you meet to bring
their AR so you can try it. Tell them "
so and so said you had a reaalllllllly good AR" so they will want to show you. AR guys can't resist a chance to talk about their AR.
After a year when you have gotten the chance to shoot a myriad of ARs, you will know what you want and more importantly, what you do not want.
YHJ
Quote from: AlaSprout on March 26, 2012, 05:13:13 PM
I've done a couple of AS events now and really enjoyed them. So far, I've used a Mini-14. In the prone position under time pressure, it was difficult for me to get the hole in the front of the magazine to line up with that little retention nib when inserting the second magazine...and that was after hunting for the magazine slot in the first place. Having just completed Front Sight's 4-day Defensive Handgun course, I am even more aware of how quickly you lose fine motor skills under stress.
While I recognize that routine practice would help me overcome those obstacles with the Mini-14, I could simply eliminate both of them by switching to an AR-15 style rifle. I have had some reservations about the reliability of the AR-15 platform due to stories from the early years when there were problems getting the bolt to go into battery. I have also read on this board about some of the problems other members have had with their slings pulling the (hot) barrel out of alignment.
With these things in mind and without trying to ignite any lengthy debate, could some of you recommend a nice entry level AR-15 style rifle (in 5.56mm) with a heavy barrel? It would also be nice if you could point out specific manufacturers/models to stay away from. Finally, I'd love to hear comments about the reliability of the modern AR-15s.
I suppose I should add that I'm looking for a rifle to use mainly in "practical rifle" training, but which I could also sling up and use to shoot a Rifleman score. I'd like the base price of the rifle to be less than $1,000.00 U.S. I've already got optics, so they won't have to figure into that price.
Best regards,
Sorry to disagree with YHJ, but you made a good---great decision going with the colt. ~ Two Wolves
Heres my 2 cents. I have a Spikes Tactical lower with a Bushmaster 16" 1 in 9 twist 556 upper,iron sights and its a tack driver.
I shot an AQT with this rifle. put 800 rds thru it without cleaning and have had no isues. this is one of my loner rifles. The Great PHenry has shot this rifle and was very impressed returning a ragged hole. so what Im trying to say is just about any combo you decide on with Dry fire and pratice you are sure to make any rifle look good
Use the tip of a round, you probably had 30 of them on you while you we trying to figure out what to use.
~PlatzOut~
Quote from: AlaSprout on July 22, 2012, 07:22:50 PM
So, I took the new rifle out to the range to zero it in the other day and had no trouble adjusting windage on the rear by hand. However, I can't seem to find the right tool to adjust the front sight. It looks like the standard AR front sight (triangle), but neither of the front sight adjustment tools I've purchased will fit. The post has a place for 4 prongs, but this 4-prong DPMS tool ( http://www.midwayusa.com/product/304696/dpms-front-sight-adjusting-tool-4-prong-ar-15-a2-steel ) is too small in diameter, despite being labeled specifically as an M4 sight adjustment tool.
I called MidwayUSA and they couldn't figure it out. Then I called Colt, gave them the serial number, and they couldn't tell me what sight adjustment tool I needed. What gives?
Quote from: Two Wolves on July 22, 2012, 10:46:55 PM
Sorry to disagree with YHJ, but you made a good---great decision going with the colt. ~ Two Wolves
Nahhh.... no apologies needed. There are plenty of good choices and good options given in this thread. I was just offering the option of making his decision based on his own experiences, rather than relying on everyone else's experiences.
YHJ
If you got the money to burn a Larue OBR is the way to go guaranteed to shoot better that quarter MOA, in the recent past this we unheard of from a gas impengment rifle! I wish I had the money for one of those. Man the things I could do with a rifle that shoots as good as I do.....
~PlatzOut~
I appreciate the advice, but most of you guys have missed the fact that I now have the rifle ( http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtCarbinesII.aspx ) and that my last post was asking a question about a front sight adjustment tool for it. Maybe I should have started a new thread, but I'm big on recycling where possible. ;) Best regards...
A live round is the best adjustment tool, only cost about 28-35 cents and I always seem to have a few laying around when I go to the range
~PlatzOut~
My adjustment tools only cost about 16-25 cents so I have a lot more of them laying around. (Just givin you a hard time there, Sarge!)
Usually when I have to adjust a front sight (on any rifle) I use the small little punch on my Leatherman tool. I can whip that sucker out much faster than I can find my sight tools and it tends to work much better anyway. Plus, it's (almost) always on my belt when I'm at the range.
Good choice on the Colt. My first (civilian) AR was a Colt 6601. Still rock it to this day. Wonderful rifles. Over time, I've gotten away from the whole, "you need a Colt" thing but if it were necessary to need an AR today, she's the one that's going with me. Happy shootin!
Hay slim, have you had any experience with the Nickle plated cheap stuff? Was thinking about giving it a try even though it's hard on extractors and will probably end up costing me more in the not to distant future.
~PlatzOut~
I've shot over 3,000 rounds of WPA in the last year.
Believe it or not... I'm still using the exact same extractor that was on this bolt when I bought it from a guy who said, "I shoot the XXXXX out of Wolf through this thing." Not sure what his roundcount was, but he seemed like a pretty enthusiastic shooter so I'm guessing this thing has lots and lots of rounds on it. I'm not really sure where the "hard on extractors" stuff comes from (probably from the same kool-aid factory that makes PMAGs) but I can confirm it hasn't been hard on my extractor. I can also confirm that it hasn't gummed up my rifle or failed to operate or anything like that. The accuracy is good as well. I shot a KD Rifleman score with it at Ramseur earlier this year and routinely shoot good (well, as good as I can do) groups at Appleseed events. I run it through my AR during 3-gun and just yesterday used it to make hits at 100 and 200 yards then did rapid fire/mag swap drills on silhouettes at 30.
Simply put, this ammo is good stuff.
The only "issue" I've had with the WPA is I had a few primers pop out. That was when I was still diagnosing a problem on my new lower build so it very well could've been that. (Hammer was hitting all caddywhompus becuase the pins kept sliding out. 1st build. Great feedback!) It wasn't an issue for operation, just something I noticed afterward. For the money, you can't beat WPA!
I've also shot quite a bit of Silver Bear and it's currently my "stockpile" ammo. The 62gr BTHP rounds are OUTSTANDING in my Colt. I shot my first KD targets using that rifle and that ammo and it was so easy it was like cheating. Love that stuff. Just a bit pricier than WPA but it's probably a bit better. I can't find it locally anymore but I picked up some WPA 62 soft points yesterday at the show. I'll let you know how they work out. I'm guessing they'll be similar to the Silver Bear since it's all made at Barnaul.
Don't drink the kool-aid! I wish I had a dollar for every "tactical operator" that I've outshot with Wolf although I don't need it because the look on their face is priceless! "But it said on arfcom that you can't do that. How'd you do that?" Priceless!
Yah the bear is what I've been looking at. The reason why it is harder on extractors is because it was designed to cycle brass, not steel which is a harder metal so it causes more wear and eventually faster failure. The Nicole plated stuff should not gum up your rifle because it is not laqure or polymer coated as the standard wolf, bear, and Tula ammo are. I've found it on ammo seek for around 28 cents around so I was thinking about picking some up, but I may just pick up a 15-22 instead =^) have not decided yet.
~PlatzOut~
You train how you fight, right?
I'm not fighting with a .22 so I'll use the big loud stuff to train with. Not knocking the .22 and I shoot my 10/22 all the time to keep my skills sharp. But when dealing with my AR I want the big bang and recoil.
love the big bang. Yes a live round works great, got my new sight post, took the old one off was a 4 prong, so I had the tool the new one was 5 prong then I recalled that I had a battle rifle and you can use a round to work on it had the new post on in 2 minutes. About what rifle to buy, I bought a S&W MP 15 for $650 and been to a few AS's several thousand rounds all different mags NEVER misfired or jammed only problems were operator error, love the BAD lever. got 10 round mags for prone, pmag and metal ones all work great the plastic ones are a little easier on pruny sweaty hands in FL
You will find 75% if not more of your malfunctions with an AR will be caused by bad magazines, or slims ammo.
I like the 15-22 because all the bells and whistles are the same. The bolt lock to the rear unlike the colt, and all the buttons do what they are suppose to do, unlike the colt. Yah it's made out of plastic, but your only shooting 22 LR from it. As a training rifle I don't think it can be beat. Especially if you one one of its brig brothers, any AR variant. I don't like spending 35 cents a round for 5.56, or 65 cents a round for 308 to shoot it at 25, or even 100 yards. That's why I own .22's. Even if I only paired 23 cents a round I would still rather pay 6 cents. The fundamentals are the same no matter the caliber. All I can say is there is a reason why I can put rounds though the same hole consistently. It's because I train with a .22 and it allows me to shoot 100s and 1000s of rounds a month without going broke. Granted, most of it is just raw natural talent, but a lot of it is perfect practice makes perfect.
~PlatzOut~
I have an Olympic Arms,
This is the bottom of the barrel, however I'm not sure if I got a cherry or If they are all as dependable.
Right outta the box you say, Here here,It will eat anything you feed it!
I would defiantly get a 20" barrel if possible the extra length for sight radius.