Ok, so I saw in another thread someone mentioned that using a QD swivel in the front and detaching it from the rifle after each section while leaving it attached to your arm fosters bad sling use. Can someone elaborate please, as this was what was recommended to me as a new ASer by an instructor and it's what I've always done. If I'm doing something wrong or potentially recommending bad habits to other shooters I'd like to know so I can correct it.
Thanks!
Not necessarily wrong, it just robs a new shooter of the opportunity to get used to putting on a loop sling properly. If you put it on once in the morning and constantly detach from the front of the rifle, you've effectively put on the sling once. By removing the sling from your arm after every course of fire, you build the muscle memory of putting it on dozens of times over the weekend. Perfect practice makes perfect!
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I *will* teach a student about detaching the sling from the rifle near the end of Sunday, as we enter the AQT Grind. By then, they should be getting into and out of the sling without problems anyway, so it usually doesn't make a big difference.
When I see IIT's that have difficulty donning or doffing the sling, I know that it is because they are used to disconnecting it from the rifle instead of their arm...
I was the one that made that post and ItsanSKS pretty much summed that up. I am not saying they are bad. I am saying instructors should stop using them when at shoots as a way to skirt helping someone learn and essential process. It started like this..
I am one of the Training Liaisons for my state. In my state our SC is very good about delegating so he called me one night and said, "I am seeing too many AARs with instructors who don't know how to put their sling on properly. THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN IN INDIANA." When I started asking around as to why he was seeing this it basically boiled down to just what Reddot said. They were taught to put the sling on one time a day and that was it. They didn't have the repetition to actually "know" and understand the sling. Not only that, but they encouraged shooters to do it that way and the shooters never learned the sling. When we boiled down why instructors were doing that to its lowest common denominator the reason became simple. Instructors tell students that because they don't want to spend the time teaching them properly. I say that not to accuse anyone but when you boil it down, there it is.
Not only that, but when instructors had time to get down and shoot they used the QD clip. This sets a bad example for shooters who were are encouraging to learn the process inside and out. Because of that I instituted a rule in Indiana that any instructor wearing a hat and shooting on the line has to leave their sling on the rifle. We can't forget we are there to teach a process. After just a couple months our instructors proved to not only be able to get into the sling quickly without the QD clip, but also THEY TAUGHT IT BETTER.
No one is saying that the QD clips are bad and if I see instructors show up at shoots without their hats on it doesn't bother me one bit. BUT when we have our hats on everything we do is watched and seen and we have to set an example. (And then some IIT will show up in an AAR with the hook on the inside and my phone rings and its a yelling match with tears and cussing and accusations. Its just terrible) :'(
Yea, I kind stuck SPQR with that.
I don't mind helping a shooter get their sling on five, six, ten times on Saturday. I generally only help them every other time, so I can make a point of catching them after their shot string to show how the sling slipped down. But I really should not have to help a Redhat get their sling properly on both their rifle and themselves. We cannot teach what we cannot do.
It slows us down on Saturday, it eats time, it drags out the five squares, it can be exasperating and frustrating. But they are paying us to teach them and teaching is a process. The pay off comes when you throw a student who fired a rifle for the first time on Saturday morning into a 18 minute per AQT grind and they are slinging up faster than the instructors, and doing it right. Those are almst always the lines you see where every student is in perfect position and all the muzzles are lined up on a perfectly dressed line.
That is a sure sign of a good shoot boss, and great instructors.
YHJ
As an inexperienced IIT, i would show someone too early on Sat. and spend the rest of the weekend trying to fix my own train wreck.
Most commonly they would twist it the wrong way,then the 2:30 syndrome and everyone is thoroughly confussed! :shootself:
YHJ will yell at you on Saturday if your disconnect you sling from the rifle as you don't learn the technique. I can attest to this as he yelled at me lol. he is serious about it &)
Hmm, interesting, and gives me something to think about. I'll admit that I have trouble getting into and out of a fixed sling because I've always used QDs. I never thought it was that much of a problem though because my rifles/slings all use QDs. I'll have to give that more thought and see if I need to change my thinking on that. Thanks for the responses guys, I always like to have my methods challenged. It can only make me a better shooter right?
Getting into the loop sling should be second nature.
Properly donning the sling should take not longer than 20 seconds, much less with practice. Properly removing the sling should take even less.
Quote from: aragornelessar86 on March 09, 2012, 03:00:02 PM
It can only make me a better shooter right?
Instructor not shooter, we can make a better shooter with every crank of the wheel, we want you to become a better
instructor.
O0
YHJ
Quote from: yellowhousejake on March 09, 2012, 03:53:59 PM
Quote from: aragornelessar86 on March 09, 2012, 03:00:02 PM
It can only make me a better shooter right?
Instructor not shooter, we can make a better shooter with every crank of the wheel, we want you to become a better instructor.
O0
YHJ
I suppose I should have said "Rifleman". That should encompass both the shooting and the instruction.
When a Rifleman needs his rifle the sling is on his rifle not his arm. That being said I'm not going to yell at a shooter that uses his QD swivel, but instructors that do it &) . I'll explain that rack grad M1/M14 and ar15s don't have QD swivels, and why we encourage leaving the sling on the rifle. I have QD's on LTR's because their cheap and quick :) , not so shooters can wear slings on their arms. Which reminds me of a John Cougar song: Rain on the scarecrow, slings on their arms ^:)^ If you heard me sing you would know why I don't encourage slings on the arms.
D-fly %)
Well if instructors are getting advanced without being proficient with slings, that's the SB's issue. I have mixed emotions with the students, the time issue for one and increasing the muzzle sweep probablities messing with the sling is another. Drinking from a 2" hose is one thing and making it a 4" is another. It's one thing dealing with green raw students and another dealing with those who've been shooting for years (incorrectly) who balk at the slings anyway. The more PIA it is, the less likely they'll use them at all. I'd rather they "see" the benefit in the most user friendly way, then they'll want to use them instead of humoring us while we're standing over them....O.L.
Dragonfly, I see the point, and actually the way I know I'm not an expert with an attached sling is because I had a devil of a time getting it right last time I took my Garand to the range. Also, at my last shoot I improperly demo'd the sling on Saturday, but the SB showed me the correct method and I did it right on Sunday. Thanks for all the good thoughts guys. You've pretty much convinced me that I need to lay off the QDs for a couple months, at least until I can get into my Garand without thinking about it.
I love it when they refuse the sling cause they already know how to shoot. ++)
Then their Girlfriend scores higher because she used the sling and had a teachable attitude. ..:..
OL you make great points and they are ones that have been thrown at me when I conduct IIT Primers for our new IITs. My response is two fold.
Indeed it is a SB issue (hence YHJs policy on it) but the safety issue is not existent at our shoots because we don't just teach how to get into the sling but what position to get into it from. We tell the shooters that they should get slinged up from a kneeling position and we show them how to use their hands to do it without letting the rifle flop around freely. Slinging up when already laying down does cause issues so we enforce the idea of slinging up in a kneeling position and then letting themselves down into prone in a controlled fashion. We haven't had any issues and we counter the time monkey with other things. Slinging up time has not prevented us from getting all 3 Strikes, the PoI or an AQT in on Saturday.
As far as seeing the impact of the sling I completely agree. the thing is that if I don't give them enough repetition putting it on properly they may not know how to put the sling on when they get home. What I don't want to see is a second time Seeder coming back and saying, "Huff, I forgot how this darn strappy thing works and I need you to run me through it again." When they come back, they know it.
As with everything for the SB/teacher, time management can mean everything. I harp on instructors to not waste time chatting in prep because this is part of their job. If that shooter leaves the shoot and he does not know his sling front and back because he only put it on once or twice, and he is practicing at home and not getting it right then he may not have had his time wasted at his Seed but he is wasting it at home.
Anyway, that is the theory behind why we implemented that policy. So far it is working for us.
I think that all day Saturday you should be putting the sling on and off to learn it. if you become proficient with it, I don't see a problem for the shooters doing it on Sundays, especially during the AQT grind. but I have to agree with my fellow Indiana instructors. Instructors should take it on and off to show shooters that we do what we teach.
My LTRS have the swivels welded shut . (jb weld)
One problem I noticed is that shooters sometimes try to remove the sling w/o opening the keeper. This defeats the purpose of taking the sling off each time .
At future events I will address this during sling instruction .
I always mention to start by moving the H buckle to he bottom of the sling , so it's easy to make a loop .
Yup, good info here.
I'm pretty hot against using the QD swivel and leaving the sling on the arm until Sunday, and at that point, I just tolerate it.
I do like the QD swivels, it allows easier swapping the sling from rifle to rifle, and makes it easier to connect/disconnect the rear swivel.
Now, I'm one of those diehards that uses a 1907 sling on most of my rifles (the AR wears a nylon web sling). Prefer a hasty sling for standing, loop sling for the rest.
I can get into my sling faster than I can fuss with my QD swivels.
Quote from: Stand on March 27, 2012, 10:04:11 PM
I can get into my sling faster than I can fuss with my QD swivels.
Agreed - as it should be - and that's the point.
QuoteGive a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Good rule of thumb when any questions come up - are we teaching them to fish?
The point is not whether it is easier, not if you like it, not what you prefer...have we taught them to be self-sufficient with their rifle?
-Peter
*sigh* here we go again...
Seeing as no one else shares this opinion, I figure I'll go ahead and post it.
I disagree with leaving the loop sling on the rifle for three reasons:
1. It takes up time to put it on and take it off. Lots of time.
2. I don't see a whole lot of shooters having trouble with putting the loop on the right way. If you tell em, "put it on, pull it up on your arm, and then pull it tight and let it hang. If it stays tight, it's on right. Otherwise, try it the other way", it seems to me they tend to get it.
3. People forgetting they are tethered to the rifle, or struggling to pull the loop on or off their arm, is perhaps the #1 cause of muzzle sweeps I have seen.
Just some things I hope are considered.
Roland
Quote from: aragornelessar86 on March 09, 2012, 08:37:17 PM
Dragonfly, I see the point, and actually the way I know I'm not an expert with an attached sling is because I had a devil of a time getting it right last time I took my Garand to the range. Also, at my last shoot I improperly demo'd the sling on Saturday, but the SB showed me the correct method and I did it right on Sunday. Thanks for all the good thoughts guys. You've pretty much convinced me that I need to lay off the QDs for a couple months, at least until I can get into my Garand without thinking about it.
I think once you get used to slinging up each time ,you never use QD again .
Many varibles change the sling tension , at one time we used to mark the slings and soon realised the mark was useless :D
Your openess toward learning is an admirable trait O0 One lifetime is not long enough to learn the gun culture.
When teaching sling use , i start in kneeling with rifle held in place by knee pressure , arms would catch lateral movement .
I then have sling straight and put H buckle at the bottom of sling ,so there is only one way to make the loop .
then turn sling 1/2 half turn to where it would choke your bicep tightening as you pull on it .
The key is repition , and after encouraging sling use ,I have seen scores improve to RM standards.
I also see in some situations the desirabily of QT .
Maybe a formula could be instructor material , no QT ;D
Quote from: Johnnyappleseed on April 06, 2012, 07:13:50 PM
I also see in some situations the desirabily of QT .
Maybe a formula could be instructor material , no QT ;D
;D
I think also it might have been that the rifle I demo'd wasn't set up correctly, as I've been doing fine for the past several weeks, and then at the March30/April1 shoot I couldn't do it right again until I realized that the "CA legal assault rifle" I was trying to sling up on was configured incorrectly.
Anyway, after my experiences in the last month or so I've come to the conclusion that QDs are nice for ease of removing/switching slings, but now that all my rifles are properly slung up, I never use them anymore. It's way faster and more comfortable to re-sling than to fiddle with QDs.
I've also decided that rather than telling students the "1/2 turn toward trigger hand" bit, I just tell them to make sure the buckle is outside and it'll work. Too many of the loaner slings at that last shoot were not set up properly and had to be turned the opposite direction, or not turned at all, to fit properly.
Quote from: Mr Pete on April 06, 2012, 04:59:49 PM
QuoteGive a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Good rule of thumb when any questions come up - are we teaching them to fish?
The point is not whether it is easier, not if you like it, not what you prefer...have we taught them to be self-sufficient with their rifle?
-Peter
+1
Aragorn- I really appreciate the open mind and teachable attitude you have displayed throughout this thread. I think it really shows the Rifleman spirit. I have always thought that a rifleman must have an open mind accepting of change but confident enough that they question change to prove its value. When we started our Instructor Primer program YHJ and I spent a lot of time studying the sling. There is not really a lot of scholarship about it and we had to use Field Manuals to track it as a tool. Figure 54 of Army Field Manual 23-5 (October 1951) is one of the latest FMs of the Army side that actually shows it in a diagram and explains it use. While the keeper and webbing above the H Buckle may be turned to face the rifle or away from it, the critical element is that the Buckle (some manuals call it the H-Buckle) must be facing away from the rifle so that the loop, when drawn through, faces away from the rifle and is able to be turned. It is this turning (so that it actually appears somewhat twisted before you insert your arm) that allows the sling to lay flat across the arm.
"after my experiences in the last month or so I've come to the conclusion that QDs are nice for ease of removing/switching slings, but now that all my rifles are properly slung up, I never use them anymore. It's way faster and more comfortable to re-sling than to fiddle with QDs. " Does everybody see that? Someone was willing to try something different and commit to the trying. They were willing to experiment, to ask "why?". Yes, Virginia, there ARE Riflemen in the U.S.A.. O0
I'll concede there are advantages to QD swivels.
I'll also mention that it is Appleseed policy that we teach them how to get into a proper sling.
You will have them get into and out the sling at an Appleseed. If you're having them use the QD swivels before about noon Sunday, you're wrong. After about noon Sunday, they probably have the sling process down good enough to remember it.
And, we don't care if it takes a little time up. You'll do it. Whether you agree with it or not, but because it's Appleseed policy. Fred agrees with me, by the way.
^ Perhaps I'm taking the "you'll do it" the wrong way? ???
Of course, the students will receive the proper instruction on getting into their slings per Appleseed policy, but anything beyond that is simply our suggestion, not a rule.
If a student switches to immediately using their QD against my recommendation, it's no different than a student who refuses to try a sling at all - it is still allowed.
ATM-
It's one thing for the student to use the QD feature of their swivels on their own, and another for their instructor to point it out and recommend it. It is the latter that is the problem, and as you note, the only part we can control.
Now, a student who uses the QD swivel *and* starts telling others to do the same is a problem, and needs to be politely, but firmly, corrected.
I suppose much of this could be preempted by announcing the suggestion to the entire group as they are ready to try it the first time.
Something like, "Even those equipped with QD swivels will benefit from the repetitions of properly getting into and out of the loop sling while attached to a rifle this weekend. With a bit of practice, you will be doing it just as rapidly while less prone to errors."
Of course it'll be taught..Along with "Improvise, adapt, and overcome"....O.L.
So, it is now against Appleseed policy for an instructor to recommend using a QD swivel, for any reason?
I guess so or we can follow the SB manual and as the SB, make your own decisions. Especially in our neck of the woods, folks balk at using slings at all. I'm happy if we can get them to use a hasty and they really balk at the loop. If I can get them to use it by making it take less time and hassle, they discover how good it really is and will want to use it, even if it is a PIA. That's the goal isn't it? Get them to use it?.......O.L.
"You will figure out better ways to do things, to make the task easier - or more effective.
When you do, you have an obligation to let your fellow SBs know about it, so they can try it."
O.L & Roland-
Nobody is saying that you simply cannot teach people how to use the QD feature. It is *strongly* discouraged, however, for the many reasons already given.
As with most things, it falls to SB discretion.
O.L.- If you're having trouble convincing your students to use the sling, it isn't a fault of what or how we teach. They simply neglected to bring the most important thing: a teachable attitude.
Oh I hear you..We have a population that will decend on a Mayor armed at a city council meeting. Many have been shooting since they could walk. Different demographics than much of the country. What have we learned about centralized "governments" 3000 miles away? :) I'll do what I've got to do to get them to use a sling. Most come around quickly once they see the results.......O.L.
First off, you really can't do much about a shooter that just doesn't listen.
Best way to handle that is for a youngster (that does listen) to flat leave them in the dust, so to say.
It's not about whether you show them the trick about the QD swivel or not. I don't care if you do or don't.
It's about when you teach them.
Yup, some of our folks out there are teaching them to use the QD swivels on Saturday morning, and the say "it saves time". Well, those shooters put the sling on once (under supervision) on Saturday, and once again (under supervision, because they can't remember how to do it) on Sunday. Maybe it's twice each day for some.
Well, that flat isn't enough for the shooter to retain what they've been taught, is it?
Let's just make sure they learn how to put the sling on right, and will remember how it goes (as in remember how next week and next month). If you've done that, you're good to go.
And, by the way, I usually teach them the QD trick somewhere around noon on Sunday. Experience has taught me that most of them can figure out how a sling works by then. The ones that can't, won't get it any time soon, no matter what you do.
Quote from: ItsanSKS on April 07, 2012, 03:14:17 PM
ATM-
It's one thing for the student to use the QD feature of their swivels on their own, and another for their instructor to point it out and recommend it. It is the latter that is the problem, and as you note, the only part we can control.
Now, a student who uses the QD swivel *and* starts telling others to do the same is a problem, and needs to be politely, but firmly, corrected.
This is what happened at my first shoot. An orange hat mentioned to me that I could use QDs instead of slinging and unslinging for each round. I feel bad now because I told my dad to do it that way when I brought him to his first shoot (before I started instructing). I'll have to unlearn him in a couple weeks when he attends the Rainbow shoot. :slap:
Quote from: aragornelessar86 on April 09, 2012, 03:59:29 PM
Quote from: ItsanSKS on April 07, 2012, 03:14:17 PM
ATM-
It's one thing for the student to use the QD feature of their swivels on their own, and another for their instructor to point it out and recommend it. It is the latter that is the problem, and as you note, the only part we can control.
Now, a student who uses the QD swivel *and* starts telling others to do the same is a problem, and needs to be politely, but firmly, corrected.
This is what happened at my first shoot. An orange hat mentioned to me that I could use QDs instead of slinging and unslinging for each round. I feel bad now because I told my dad to do it that way when I brought him to his first shoot (before I started instructing). I'll have to unlearn him in a couple weeks when he attends the Rainbow shoot. :slap:
Actually, he won't have to unlearn it, just you'll have to get him good enough with a sling that he remembers it. If he can properly get into a sling without being reminded how to do it, he's good enough.
A few years back we heard of a SB who did not teach sling use . It was surmised he forgot or never learned the sling concept .Fortunately this was corrected eventually .
I have on occasion witnessed RHs fumbling with teaching loop sling ,they learned the quick detach trick.
In one instance I took over by saying --'Oh I have an easier way"
We learned the loop sling in USMC and I could not recall how the put it on until AS .
It will be difficult to correct an instructor corp that does not know sling use or how to teach it .
The rule I use is if it's unlikely the person will ever score RM or unlikely to become IIT , the QT is fine . No point seeing someone frustrated over a sling .