Hi everyone,
On my AR-15 .22, I find that in prone position, as I increase tension on my sling, the rifle has a tendency to cant, which I compensate for with my trigger hand. I feel like the opposing tension against the cant actually gives me stability, but if I relax my trigger hand for npoa, the rifle cants again. My question is should I release trigger-hand tension when trying to find npoa, or keep it on? Or is there a better way to solve this?
On a related note, is there any way to keep my GI sling from cutting off blood circulation to my arm? I'm still feeling the aftereffects of circulation loss from the last appleseed, and though I love the sling, I won't be able to continue using it if I can't do something about this! I have the sling high up in my armpit, and I'm wearing multiple layers, but this doesn't seem to help. How does everyone deal with this?
Thanks!
--Varun
Are you opposite eye dominant to your handedness?
I found my rifle canting a little bit due to the strength of my right arm while I was shooting left handed. (I am left eye dominant.) I couldn't quite get my right arm in the position vertically under my rifle as I was supposed to which resulted in my rifle canting.
I can't help you with the blood circulation issue since layers helped me fix my problem in that area. I would only guess that your sling is too tight.
Ed
Quote from: The Almighty Ram on February 24, 2012, 12:13:27 AM
Hi everyone,
On my AR-15 .22, I find that in prone position, as I increase tension on my sling, the rifle has a tendency to cant, which I compensate for with my trigger hand. I feel like the opposing tension against the cant actually gives me stability, but if I relax my trigger hand for npoa, the rifle cants again. My question is should I release trigger-hand tension when trying to find npoa, or keep it on? Or is there a better way to solve this?
On a related note, is there any way to keep my GI sling from cutting off blood circulation to my arm? I'm still feeling the aftereffects of circulation loss from the last appleseed, and though I love the sling, I won't be able to continue using it if I can't do something about this! I have the sling high up in my armpit, and I'm wearing multiple layers, but this doesn't seem to help. How does everyone deal with this?
Thanks!
--Varun
Hi Ed,
Yes I'm left eye dominant & right handed. I never realized that could be the reason for the canting! I'll try using tape over my left eye next time.
The problem with the gi sling is it automatically tightens under tension, so if there's any sort of tension it tends to cut my circulation. I was thinking of strapping some cardboard onto my arm, but that's not a very convenient solution.
Thanks for the info,
Varun
I understand the problem behind this request: Try holding your rifle in a proper right handed shooting position. I found when I did that that when I breathed in and out my rifle moved vertically as it should and my rifle wasn't canted. My problem was that in the left handed shooting position I couldn't move my right elbow quite far enough under the rifle and subsequently my rifle canted on me about 20 degrees from vertical.
My suspicion to the problem is that the right arm is too strong to allow the flexibility necessary to allow for a proper form. I haven't yet tried shooting right handed. I have only tried the form in non shooting practice but the problem seemed to disappear when I was trying in right handed. I plan on trying it at an Appleseed soon and want to become an ambidextrous rifleman.
Quote from: The Almighty Ram on February 24, 2012, 12:32:57 AM
Hi Ed,
Yes I'm left eye dominant & right handed. I never realized that could be the reason for the canting! I'll try using tape over my left eye next time.
The problem with the gi sling is it automatically tightens under tension, so if there's any sort of tension it tends to cut my circulation. I was thinking of strapping some cardboard onto my arm, but that's not a very convenient solution.
Thanks for the info,
Varun
Quote from: The Almighty Ram on February 24, 2012, 12:32:57 AMThe problem with the gi sling is it automatically tightens under tension, so if there's any sort of tension it tends to cut my circulation. I was thinking of strapping some cardboard onto my arm, but that's not a very convenient solution.
I don't have a good solution to my blood flow issues -- I will let you know if I come up with something. When shooting left handed I have the same issues as you do.
Try putting a piece of sponge between your sling and your arm and see if this helps with the circulation problem.
It turns out I have the same problem with the canting and am right handed and left eye dominant. I will have to play with that some, see what it is I am doing. As for the circulation, the cardboard might be inconvenient but if it works by spreading out the pressure, you might be able to come up with something more permanent to act as a cuff. Slotted piece of leather or something to slide onto the sling. I dunno, its early and have not finished my first cup of coffee so that idea makes sense right now.
Quote from: The Almighty Ram on February 24, 2012, 12:13:27 AM
I have the sling high up in my armpit, and I'm wearing multiple layers, but this doesn't seem to help.
The sling doesn't have to be high in the armpit, just high above the bicep. Could it be too high?
Other than that, I found a folded up old shop rag placed over the artery help spread the load of the sling, so the tension wasn't concentrated in one place. Perhaps some foam pipe insulation like this -
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202318553/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=foam pipe insulation&storeId=10051
or this -
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100565309/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=foam pipe insulation&storeId=10051
may work also.
If you're serious about shooting, you may want to invest in a shooting jacket, like this -
http://sites.google.com/site/madebymcron/jackets
They have padding in the bicep area to hold the sling up and spread the load.
+1 on the jacket. She makes a great one.
Sling should be taut, not tight enough to cut off blood supply.
If you are left eye dominate, shoot left handed. It may take some getting used to but will be better in the long run.
2cl
Thanks for the replies everyone. I'll definitely be getting a shooting jacket & will try the wadded up towel /foam approach in the meantime.
@2 clicks low, I had toyed around with that, but the vast dominance of right handed guns, especially semi autos, made the decision for me. Also I've trained my right eye where I can shoot anything without noticing the incorrect image so it's not too big of a deal most of the time.
I suppose a third option is using a different type of sling. Does anyone have experience with the viking tactics vtac slings? How well do these work compared to the GI slings for shooting support?
Couple of things:
First, with regard to NPOA in prone position:
"Trigger hand has a firm, hand shake grip on the rifle, pulling the stock smartly into the shoulder pocket." = SHF for ALL positions.
In prone, the only muscle input should be from your trigger finger, and the trigger hand.
Prior to finding NPOA, you first go through the mental checklist of the SHF's. If you relax your trigger hand to find NPOA, then you have lost a SHF, and your NPOA will change. This becomes especially important in standing position, as without this particular SHF, the front sight will move erratically.
RE: canting the rifle in prone.
Simple answer- your support arm is not far enough under the rifle. With a magazine fed rifle, in which the magazine protrudes under the rifle, you will have to get your arm as far under the rifle as is possible; this will cause *some* canting to take place, but you should be able to correct with the trigger hand. If the canting is extreme, ensure that the rifle barrel is centered between your support index finger and thumb, with the weight of the rifle laying flat on the support wrist. Many times, canting is caused by improper placement of the rifle in the support hand.
RE: Circulation issues with the USGI sling.
If worn improperly, the USGI sling WILL turn into a tourniquet. As was mentioned, the sling auto-tensions when relaxing into it. If you find that the sling becomes too tight around the support arm, it means that you have pushed the clip and d-ring too far to the back side of your arm. A good starting point for the sling clip should be 90* to the outside of your arm. When relaxed and in position, the d-ring should have rotated to the front of your arm, and have just enough tension around your arm so as to ensure that it cannot slip down past your bicep.
Quote from: ItsanSKS on February 24, 2012, 01:10:34 PM
Couple of things:
First, with regard to NPOA in prone position:
"Trigger hand has a firm, hand shake grip on the rifle, pulling the stock smartly into the shoulder pocket." = SHF for ALL positions.
In prone, the only muscle input should be from your trigger finger, and the trigger hand.
Prior to finding NPOA, you first go through the mental checklist of the SHF's. If you relax your trigger hand to find NPOA, then you have lost a SHF, and your NPOA will change. This becomes especially important in standing position, as without this particular SHF, the front sight will move erratically.
RE: canting the rifle in prone.
Simple answer- your support arm is not far enough under the rifle. With a magazine fed rifle, in which the magazine protrudes under the rifle, you will have to get your arm as far under the rifle as is possible; this will cause *some* canting to take place, but you should be able to correct with the trigger hand. If the canting is extreme, ensure that the rifle barrel is centered between your support index finger and thumb, with the weight of the rifle laying flat on the support wrist. Many times, canting is caused by improper placement of the rifle in the support hand.
RE: Circulation issues with the USGI sling.
If worn improperly, the USGI sling WILL turn into a tourniquet. As was mentioned, the sling auto-tensions when relaxing into it. If you find that the sling becomes too tight around the support arm, it means that you have pushed the clip and d-ring too far to the back side of your arm. A good starting point for the sling clip should be 90* to the outside of your arm. When relaxed and in position, the d-ring should have rotated to the front of your arm, and have just enough tension around your arm so as to ensure that it cannot slip down past your bicep.
That is some invaluable information!Thanks a lot for those pointers. Since the AR is mag fed, the canting must be due to the fact that I can't get my arm all the way under the rifle. The canting isn't very bad, so I'm glad to hear that compensating with the trigger hand a bit is OK.
As for the circulation, the d-ring is definitely way off to the side of my arm when in position, so this must be what's causing it to overtighten.
Can't wait to practice all of this tonight.
If the magazine is interfering with your support arm, you can get 10 round mags that will not interfere. What do you need 30 rounds for anymore anyway? A Rifleman gets more out of one round than Dufus Americanus gets with 30. ::)
As far as sling tension, I probably wear mine tighter than just about anyone. We shot the same COF in boot camp in 1975, AQT, GI sling and everything, but I believe it was @200 meters. We were "taught" (required) to wear our sling so tight that it completely cut off circulation. I mean completely. My arm was completely numb and white and that rifle was as steady as if being held in a vise. Scored a 235 and never shot a rifle before in my life. I will testify that I still have full use of my left arm to this very day.
Having said that, I never teach students to wear it anywhere near that tight. All we need is some student with some hidden disability that causes circulatory problems and I tell them to tourniquet their arm...
To be effective, it should be snug enough in prone, that in order to get the buttstock into your pocket, you must use the heel of your trigger hand on the butt to get it into place. You should not be able to lift the buttstock into place with your trigger hand on the pistol grip.
UL
Quote from: unbridled_liberty on February 24, 2012, 07:21:47 PM
...
... My arm was completely numb and white and that rifle was as steady as if being held in a vise by a cadaver. ...
...
UL
Quote from: unbridled_liberty on February 24, 2012, 07:21:47 PM
If the magazine is interfering with your support arm, you can get 10 round mags that will not interfere. What do you need 30 rounds for anymore anyway? A Rifleman gets more out of one round than Dufus Americanus gets with 30. ::)
Midway has 10rd mags by Stoner for about $18.00 ea as I recall. I got mine last year. They work great, and do not interfere in any position.
I use C-products curved 20 rounders, and they work fine for me in prone. And holding more rounds can't be a bad thing, no?
Quote from: franklinfarmer on February 24, 2012, 07:25:42 PM
Quote from: unbridled_liberty on February 24, 2012, 07:21:47 PM
...
... My arm was completely numb and white and that rifle was as steady as if being held in a vise by a cadaver. ...
...
UL
Yep, in rigor mortis. ;)
I like my sling very tight also. I don't want it completely cut off but like unbridled the tighter the better for me, but the key is don't make it so tight you are uncomfortable, because if you are that is what you will be focused on instead of the front sight
There's a difference between a tight sling, and a tight sling that cuts off circulation, and one has almost nothing to do with the other.
First, lets define a 'tight' sling as one that has the absolute minimum length between fore stock and bicep. This length is adjusted by opening the adjuster and feeding sling through, one way or the other. In *this* circumstance, the extreme is so short that you can only just barely get the rifle into the shoulder pocket. Even so, this type of sling will not cut off circulation on your arm. It MAY cut off circulation at your hand, but that is what shooting gloves are for.
With regard to the sling cutting off circulation to the arm, this occurs because the H-buckle and J-hook are positioned too far to the outside of the arm. When you get down into position, they create a tourniquet. With respect to the loop that surrounds your upper arm, the sling should be SNUG, not tight. The loop needs only be smaller than your bicep- it need not cut off circulation.
If you find that your sling is cutting off circulation to your support arm, try positioning the J-hook and H-ring a little closer to the front of your arm (say, 10 or 11:00 instead of 9:00) before getting into position.