Project Appleseed

Put your questions and comments about reloading the .308 Win/7.62 NATO in this thread.

I've got some military surplus 30-06 bullets that I picked up at a gunshow. Can they be loaded for 308? I know they are both 30 caliber but the 30-06 bullets are longer and would extend into the 308 case a little farther (causing increased pressure?) Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks  ;D

The bullet diameter for both 308 Winchester and 30.06 is the same - .308".  That means the military surplus bullets can be used in either cartridge.  If they are surplus 30.06 bullets they are most likely "flat base" bullets, it .308 they are most likely "boat tail" bullets.  The length of the bullets aren't the "longer" you see when you look at the cartridges, it's the length of the case itself.  So the 30.06 bullets, providing they are the standard 150 grn. flat base bullets will not stick farther down in the .308 case if you seat them to the proper depth.

I wouldn't try to use the commercial hunting bullets in 180 to 220 grn. weights in your .308 as they will stick much further down in the case when seated to the depth required to reach the overall length required to feed and chamber.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the information. The 30.06 bullets are 168 grain and are flat base as you described. However, they are 1/4 inch longer than the 150 grain boat tail bullets I've been using for .308 reloading. I've done some measuring and it looks like they will extend into the case even if seated to the maximum OAL allowed for 308 rounds. Should I try to trade these for some .308 boat tail just to be safe?

I'll make sure to stay away from the 180 to 220 grain bullets when loading .308

Those should work all right. Just bear in mind you will be seating them a little deeper than the 150 gr.

FWIW, I've used 180 gr bullets in the .308, but limit them to bolt guns only. I do NOT recommend using 180's in the M14 or M1, whether the M1 is .308 or 30-06. Neither of these rifles are designed to use them, they were designed for 150 through 173 grain, and there's no valid reason to use heavier than the 175 gr Sierra Match King, and then I would use the 168 gr Match King through 500 meters, rather the 175. But, that's me.

I'll take the time to add that I've used more than a few 165 and 168 Sierra's in the M14, and I can say that is a good choice. I'm sure you will find several reloaders here that agree, including M1A4ME (he knows what he's doing, trust him).

Thanks to you both for the information. I'll give the 168 grain bullets a try. I figure its always a good idea to ask the experts before trying something your not sure is right. This reloading forum is a great idea. Its hard to find someone to answer reloading questions. My only other option was to just go ahead and load them and show up at the range in my level III armor and kevlar to test em.  ;)

Of course your milage may vary

For the .308 I use 43.5 Grains of Accurate Arms 2460
This is the most accurate load I've found
A collet pulled bullet .308 from Pats Reloading
Winchester large rifle primers
and fill em on a dillon 550b.
I seat the bullet to just fit in the mags I dont remember the number

I have had really good results with the Accurate Arms 2460 in both .308 and .223 it is also rated for .30-06 but I have yet to load any with it yet.

I really like the fact I can go to the local store and buy it $99/8lbs
I usually keep an eye open for sales and then stock up I've got it for $79.99 once!
It is rated safe for the M1-A, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine and AR-15 ;D

Jason

Hello
Wolfhound I was wondering which reloading manual you are using, some have seperate data for use in M14s. (But do you think I can think of one right now?)

I am also curious on what powder you are using.

The load I shoot is a 150 gr bullet over 42.6 grs of IMR-4895 with Fed. LR primer. IMR-4895 is one of the powders recomended for the M14/M1A in Lymans 48th reloading handbook.

Though I must confess I do not have an M14 but shoot this load in a Handi Rifle.

Good Shooting.
Stumpy 

Nickle:

I bought some Hornady 150-grain polymer tipped projectiles, with a view toward loading them for my M1A.  They have a cannelure, but comparing bullet length forward of the cannelure with a USGI flat base projectile, as well as the M80 boat tail bullet, it would appear that my OAL might be a problem.

Cannelure placement determines seating depth, right?  And seating depth determines OAL, right?

I am worried I might wind up with a bunch of ammo that is "too short."  And "too short" means inaccurate, right?  As well as possibly dangerous?

HELP!


Counselor

I think Nickle is spending his two weeks training with/for Uncle Sam.

You don't have to seat to the cannelure.  I don't even crimp my rifle bullets and have never had a problem.  Not sure how much difference you are talking about (between the GI ball and the OAL of your load if you crimp in the cannelure.)  Seating the bullet deeper will increase pressures and increase the distance the bullet "jumps" from the case to the rifling (this one can negatively affect accuracy).  Even if you do not seat to the depth of the cannelure you can still do a very slight "roll" crimp on the case mouth that will not damage the bullet but will let the case mouth get a little better grip on the bullet.  I always tried to seat my bullets out just short of the magazine length.  Of course, you'll have to try setting the seating depth and then check the bullet in the chamber to make sure the bullet does not contact the rifling when the bolt locks up.  That can be as bad as being too short for increased pressure.  You can do that by chambering a round, ejecting it and examining the bullet to see if the rifling left tiny little marks on the soft (compared to the the rifling) jacket material.  If it touched, adjust the bullet seater a little deeper and try it again with a fresh bullet.

Counselor:

  +1 to what M1A4ME said.  The trick about seating the projo almost touching the rifling PROBABLY increases accuracy due to creating more uniform starting conditions for the burn.  With the projo almost immediately having to engrave, the pressure curve SHOULD be more uniform than if it has a distance to travel before engraving.  During this "jump" there is gas blow-by and bullet wobble, both of which are very difficult to duplicate consistently.

  Another way of accomplishing the same thing is to crimp in such a fashion that the bullet pull is consistent.  Conventional roll crimps are problematic, as they are very sensitive to case length variations.  I REALLY like the Lee Factory Crimp Die.  This one does not roll crimp, instead it has a collet that is squeezed down around the outside of the case, with no roll crimping shoulder.  This makes it almost indifferent to case length variations (within reason of course), and also makes for a more consistent crimp.

See:

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1184332376.4064=/html/catalog/dies-crimp.html

SoM

Just so everybody knows, what SoM and M1A4ME said is true.

Counselor, you really won't notice any significant loss od accuracy by seating at the cannelure, with an M1A. If you were shooting a REALLY accurate (as in sub 1 MOA) bolt gun, you probably would, but if you've got a 2 to 3 MOA Rifle, you won't lose much.

But, if it worries you, as was said, you really don't need to crimp, or use the cannelure. USGI M118 Match, M852 Match and M118LR ammo (or .30-06 M72 Match) doesn't have a cannelure on the bullet, and it's not crimped.

Check out the attached.  Although opinions are like you know what, this is good info that I have found to be true for the most part.

Tens and X's...

I gave that .pdf a quick look, and it looks right to me.

For data, especially using USGI Brass, check out the stuff I've got posted on the subject. It isn't from me, though I got it, it's from the US Army TM on Small Arms Ammo. It has the loads currently being used, and a few that are out of production.

M852, M80 and M118LR are in there.

Quote from: Nickle on August 10, 2007, 03:15:04 PM
I gave that .pdf a quick look, and it looks right to me.

For data, especially using USGI Brass, check out the stuff I've got posted on the subject. It isn't from me, though I got it, it's from the US Army TM on Small Arms Ammo. It has the loads currently being used, and a few that are out of production.

M852, M80 and M118LR are in there.

I have to apologize as I am new to this site, but where specifically can I find your M80 and M118LR data?  Thanks.

Quote from: wcmartin1 on August 10, 2007, 05:48:00 PM

Quote from: Nickle on August 10, 2007, 03:15:04 PM
I gave that .pdf a quick look, and it looks right to me.

For data, especially using USGI Brass, check out the stuff I've got posted on the subject. It isn't from me, though I got it, it's from the US Army TM on Small Arms Ammo. It has the loads currently being used, and a few that are out of production.

M852, M80 and M118LR are in there.

I have to apologize as I am new to this site, but where specifically can I find your M80 and M118LR data?  Thanks.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=267.0 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=267.0) The bottom sticky'd thread. USGI Ammo Specifications.

Thank you, SIR!

FYI - Here is an eMail I sent to Alliant Powder and their response:

To: alliant.reloading@atk.com
Subject: Reloader 15 and 7.62 MM, Ball Special, M118: Long Range
X-Attachments: D:\Documents\GunStuff\TM 43-0001-27 7_62 NATO[M118LR].pdf;

According to your information about Reloader 15 (which I have used for years in several rifles) it is the powder that was "Selected as the powder for U.S. Military's M118 special ball long range sniper round."

Looking at the Army Ammunition Data Sheets (TM 43-0001-27) it lists the propellent as "WC 750".  Is this Reloader 15?  I would like to safely duplicate this load and would appreciate any information or load data that you can provide.

I am attaching the data sheet for your convenience.  Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.  Should you have any questions or require additional information, please advise.


And their response:

"I am not sure what the military calls our RL 15, but I have been told in the past that 44 grs was the charge.  We do not give this information out because that charge exceeds the amount recommended in the Sierra manual with their 175 gr bullet and RL 15.  According to Sierra they start with 35.8 grs @ 2200 fps and the max is 41.3 grs @ 2600 fps.  I recommend that you use the Sierra data.  Thanks for your interest in contacting us and let me know if you have any additional questions.  Have a nice day."

I think I will buy a box of loaded M118LR (expensive - $30/20 rounds) to see if my rifle (M1A Standard/Loaded/Stainless/Synthetic) likes this load as well or better than my 168 grain load (168 gr. SMK/41.5 gr. H4895) before I proceed.  This rifle has a 1 in 11" twist with 6 groove rifling.  I have heard that 6 groove rifling likes 168's better than 175's and the 1 in 11" may not stabilize 175's as well as 1 in 10" but I will have to find out for myself.

I have had success with 42 grs. of Reloader 15 and 165 gr. Nosler BT that I used in this rifle to take a whitetail buck last year and it was accurate (4/5 hits on 500 yard steel silhouette in failing light [dusk] from prone w/sling), but I have heard that this powder may be slightly slow for this action.

In addition, Nickle, thanks for your thoughts on this matter yesterday as follows:

"Well, checking Alliant's website, they show 42.8 to 45.5 gr  max loads with 168/165 grain Sierra's and 44 gr for the 180 Speer bullets. I saw what they say about RL-15 being the powder. Yeah, I'd use it, and start low, then work up. An alternative is to make M852 Match, rather than M118LR. Use 42 gr of 4895 and the Sierra 168 gr bullet. I'm real partial to this load, and up to 600 yards, it should work well. Past 600, you're going to want the 175 gr or heavier bullet."

Final Note: 

I am not condoning the use of the loads listed above in your rifle, I am only sharing my experience and thoughts using these components.  This information and data may vary considerably depending on many factors, including the components used, component assembly, the type of firearm used, reloading techniques, safety precautions practiced, etc. 

The individual accessing this site assumes the risk of safe loading practices. Failure to do so could result in severe personal injury (or death) and/or property damage.

Got a box of M118LR last week ($40/20 :o after shipping).  Pulled the bullet on one - the powder looks and smells just like the Reloader 15 that I had on the bench.  Weighed the charge and it was 43.5 grains according to my PACT digital scale.  I haven't shot them yet, though.

Quote from: KAUKAUNA on June 22, 2007, 10:17:32 AM
Of course your milage may vary

For the .308 I use 43.5 Grains of Accurate Arms 2460
This is the most accurate load I've found
Jason

Is Hodgdon "Varget" burn rate correct for M1-A?

I am using Hornady 150 gr. FMJ bullets.

Two Glock
Yes Varget can work well in M-14 loads. Palma shooters have a love hate relationship with it. Produces some extremely accurate loads but it has a big lot to lot variation so everytime you change lots you need to back off at least 5% and re-check your velocities.

Quote from: Joe on October 25, 2007, 12:16:14 AM
Two Glock
Yes Varget can work well in M-14 loads. Palma shooters have a love hate relationship with it. Produces some extremely accurate loads but it has a big lot to lot variation so everytime you change lots you need to back off at least 5% and re-check your velocities.

Varget has the virtue of being consistant (at least inside the same lot) weather you use it while it is 10 degrees or 110 degrees outside.

I have had to vary my sight settings as many as 5 clicks to compensate for warm ammo before varget came into my life.

I use Varget on the advice of my good brother Bravo- and he ought to know, as this is his matier (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/metier). I have been very happy with the results. about 43 grains pushing a 168 grain SMK BTHP. MMMMMMM smells like fed match  ;D

Quote from: Joe on October 25, 2007, 12:16:14 AM
Two Glock
Yes Varget can work well in M-14 loads. Palma shooters have a love hate relationship with it. Produces some extremely accurate loads but it has a big lot to lot variation so everytime you change lots you need to back off at least 5% and re-check your velocities.

Thanks for the information.

Quote from: kool aid on October 25, 2007, 12:56:55 AM

Quote from: Joe on October 25, 2007, 12:16:14 AM
Two Glock
Yes Varget can work well in M-14 loads. Palma shooters have a love hate relationship with it. Produces some extremely accurate loads but it has a big lot to lot variation so everytime you change lots you need to back off at least 5% and re-check your velocities.

I use Varget on the advice of my good brother Bravo- and he ought to know, as this is his matier (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/metier). I have been very happy with the results. about 43 grains pushing a 168 grain SMK BTHP. MMMMMMM smells like fed match  ;D

Thanks;

Think I'm going to try it.   I have been using H-4895 but  the local gun store seems to not stock it.  They always try to get me to buy Varget.

2 of the best powders for the .308 are Varget and 4895.

RL-15 and WW 748 are 2 more excellent choices, along with the associated powders, such as H335 and BL-C 2.

TwoGlock,

Check out the .pdf by Glen Zediker that I posted earlier in this thread.  Read the whole thing, but starting on page ten it mentions Varget among others. 

As I stated in a previous post, I have used RE15 on a limited basis in my M1A and for the most part I have found RE15 and VARGET to be almost interchangeable in several other rifles.

As with all other opinions - use your own judgement and find your own truth.

You can find the .pdf here:

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=277.msg5896#msg5896

Good luck, Sir!

That wouldn't surprise me at all.

4895, Norma N201 and H332 all could be interchanged by VOLUME at one time. THat was in a .22 PPC, .219 Donaldson Wasp or a 6mm PPC.

I wouldn't recommend it to the squeamish, or for use in anything other than a REAL STRONG bolt gun (like a Hart or Remington action), but I've seen it done.

The powders were just that close in burn rate and volume that it could be done.

There is good info about mil spec 7.62 ammo here:  http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/762mm_ammo.html

Tom

I have been using both RL 15 and Varget . Although the verdict is still out it seems that the Varget work's better with the 180 gr. or heaver rounds then the 15. The Varget also burns cleaner. This is with a Panther.  With the FAL, it defiantly work better with the Varget and 168 gr. Matchkings or mine dose. In the real world, both these powers will get the job done. I have also notice that when you start to getting up around 2900 fps you start seeing flyers.
Has anyone, seen or heard of a standard 308 168/175 gr. being push faster then this with accuracy?

www.6mmbr.com/308win.html Has some interesting loads. I have tried most of the 175 gr. loads and they work good in the Panther 308 and my FAL. They show a load for Varget 47.5 g with Sierra 110 gr. at a smoking 3200 fps. Has any one tried this load?

Not that specific load, but, I've used those bullets, and they are good. You get some fairly high velocities from them, but, the Ballistic Coefficient isn't real good, so they peter out fairly quick.

Due to money not growing on trees, thanks to Nickle's advise, I have purchased a 700.  Can we talk about consistent, accurate powder, bullet combinations with milsurp brass?  I have some SA and Paki that I plan on using to reload with and want to set aside some

1.  Elk ammo
2.  possible M118LR?  or possible variant

for my new bolt gun.  As this is a factory gun, and due to a soon coming job loss of very good pay it will stay that way.  I plan on practising within the confines of 600 yds with it.  (not Elk hunting shooting)  Should I follow the here given .pdf s  posted and use.  Will these work well in mil surp brass?

ax238

Consider these loads MAXIMUM until proven otherwise. Some seem a little hot to me.

A)Military brass is typically thicker than commercial and can have up to 10% less case capacity. Less case capacity means higher pressures for the same amount of powder.

B) With the exception of the military equivalent loads, most of these loads seem to be built for custom guns with tighter match chambers. These can take higher pressures than standard commercial chambers when loaded carefully by very knowledgeable reloaders.

C) M118LR uses the Sierra 175gr MK.

D) Most non-dangerous game loads in 30 cal. use traditional 150-180gr soft point hunting bullets. For elk, I think I'd stick to the 180's although 165's would work well with good  bullet placement.

If you use them get a good reloading book (Sierra, RCBS, Lyman)and read and re-read the parts on over pressure signs and determination. Don't cut corners on the reloading process. Check your case lengths. Too long can boost pressures radically.Then start your loading 10% BELOW the powder charges listed here and work up carefully. Typically loads that are a bit less than maximum will shoot more accurately than those at maximum. As a side note, usually barrel wear accelerates rapidly when you start pushing velocities over 3000fps.

quote by ax238 : "I have some SA and Paki that I plan on using to reload with and want to set aside some "

You may not know,,,that brass is Berdan.

ax238,

Given your parameters, consider using this approach:

-165 Sierra GK for your elk load
-168 Sierra MK for your "M118LR" load

Yes, I know that M118LR uses the 175, but if you want to simplify your loading process and your shots will not be (much) past 600 yards with the "match" load, then the 168s will get you there and have similar* loads and trajectories compared to the 165s.  It might be the best choice to have your rifle ready for either role without having to reconfirm trajectory data, scope settings, etc.  Right now there is no close equivalent hunting bullet to the 175 SMK that I'm aware of.

* obviously, develop each load separately for each bullet.  However you should end up with very similar set up for these two bullets from all reports.

Since this is in a BA rifle you will not be limited to the powders traditionally suggested for M1A/M1 reloads (medium burning rates.)  I liked IMR 4350 powder in my M1A (much to slow of a burning rate - cracked my op rod - twice).  I got good velocity, great accuracy and lower peak pressures than I could with the recommended M1A type powders.

The slower burning powders fill the case better (takes more powder) but that is not a bad thing.  If you get the opportunity try a slower burning powder in your model 700 - remember to stick to the same advice about reducing powder charges when you start and then work your way up.

Remember that in most guns the highest velocity is not the best accuracy and the best accuracy can be 200 to 400 fps. below the highest velocity.

As you work your loads up watch the primers for signs of high pressure.  The primer will begin to flatten around the edges where it meets the primer pocket (that nice little rounded corner you see on the new primers/shells where the primer edge meets the pocket begins to disapper and get reall "square" on the edge).  Worse than that is when the primer gets a little raised edge around the firing pin indention when the excess pressure start to try to push primer metal back into the firing pin hole in the bolt.  I've seen this problem on new S&W revolvers that had defective nose pin bushings as well but you M700 should be alright.

Also, in a .308 there's no need for magnum primers (burn hotter, can increase pressure and may negatively affect accuracy when used in a cartridge that doesn't need them).

Wouldn't expect you'd need to "crimp" the case mouth around your bullets either.  Some folks are really raving about the Lee taper crimp dies but I haven't used them yet.

In a bolt-action definitely try RE15 or Varget with 165's.  You'll like 'em. (Killed many critters and a whole bunch of paper using these in .308 and 30-06)

I like the Lee "Factory Crimp" die, also.  With a consistent light crimp from this die it will almost do as well as neck turning for maintaining consistent round to round starting pressure. 

And I really hesistate to tell this next part as it's hard to talk about your own mistakes, but...

This die can also help you reduce the main problem associated with a squib load (stuck bullet in barrel, KB, etc.) by retaining the bullet in the case (click...oh, $h*t, what the...?).  Yeah, this happend to me ONCE about six months ago during a rapid-fire string (pulled the bullet after I stopped shaking and guess what wasn't there).  After thousands of reloads one slipped through and it is scary to think of what could have happened. :o

And, although I checked before, I definitely double-check my charged cases in the block before seating bullets now.

Quote from: Atlas Shrug on November 28, 2007, 10:20:23 AM
ax238,

Given your parameters, consider using this approach:

-165 Sierra GK for your elk load
-168 Sierra MK for your "M118LR" load

Yes, I know that M118LR uses the 175, but if you want to simplify your loading process and your shots will not be (much) past 600 yards with the "match" load, then the 168s will get you there and have similar* loads and trajectories compared to the 165s.  It might be the best choice to have your rifle ready for either role without having to reconfirm trajectory data, scope settings, etc.  Right now there is no close equivalent hunting bullet to the 175 SMK that I'm aware of.

* obviously, develop each load separately for each bullet.  However you should end up with very similar set up for these two bullets from all reports.

I've seen what the 165 Sierra Hollow Point Game King does to a 575 lb moose (by a friend, but it was my ammo), and I'm glad I started using it. You'll get a load that's equivalent to the M852 Match load. The M852 uses the 168 Sierra, and is VERY accurate.

has anyone on this forum loaded this in their hunting load for .308?

this stuff looks pretty aggressive on the barnes website
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=256208&t=11082005

Ax

Quote from: ax238 on December 02, 2007, 02:41:39 PM
has anyone on this forum loaded this in their hunting load for .308?

this stuff looks pretty aggressive on the barnes website
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=256208&t=11082005

Ax

I haven't loaded them as I don't see that it's necessary with the relatively slow (although perfectly adequate) velocity of the .308 and 30-06 (I like 165 gr. Sierra GameKings, Hornady SSTs, and Nosler Ballistic Tips for hunting with these calibers), but I have a friend that swears by them in 300 Weatherby as they are definitely tough and very accurate in his rifle.

If you are hunting elk, they may have an advantage in .308, but the others I mentioned will get 'er done.

Whatever you do, you must have confidence in your hunting load, and if that's what it takes for you - GO FOR IT!

Good luck, Sir.

   I loaded it, but it was in the 30-06.   Bullet functioned beautiful,
but could not get the accuracy that I wanted.   Would not condem
it, as it may work top notch in another rifle.

Oohrah

what type of case and powder did you use?  Primer?  What did you gather was the cause for the mal-perfomance?  The reason I was asking is that I was thinking either this round or Barnes Triple Shock bullet as well.  I may save some serious money and just stick with the recommended Sierra bullets that the guys in the thread have suggested.

Ax

I think that Barnes bullet is kind of pricey, and more than what's needed.

I am partial to the Sierra 165 gr Hollow Points Game King bullet and the 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. I'm sure the Hornady would be as good as the Nosler, but when I got them, the Nosler was available. Short notice (2 to 3 days) and the Noslers were local.

Ax238 I have used the Sierra Game King to bring down both deer and bear in a 308. with no problems. The shots were out to 175 yd. all clean one shot take downs. These were loaded with Varget and/or RL 15, standard ICC primer.  I'm sure that Nosler, Speeder or Barnes make fine bullets too but I have not taken down any game with them.

Question about primers:
I've got a bunch of CCI #34 primers left over. I was wondering if these would be any good for accuracy shooting with a bolt gun.
I bought them for loading for the M1A. My understanding is that they are supposed to be harder but that they may be less consistent than other primers. 
Has anyone here had any experience (positive or negative) with these primers affecting accuracy?

These are equivalent to their magnum primers so you may have to reduce your load depending on your application.  They are not as consistent as benchrest primers, but they are fairly accurate.  I'd use them. 

If you don't find that they are meeting your needs, I'll be glad to help you out and take them off your hands. ;D

Ax, the bullet worked  just like it should, except I found the Sierra were
much more accurate.   Although expansion was a little different, adequate
at long range and might not be quite so controled (little more expansion
close up and higher velocity).   The accuracy thing is most likely that
particular barrel thought it liked the Sierra better.   Used Commercial
Winchester cases with 4350 with some stiff but not especially hot,(used some
4831, but a touch better with the 4350} primers standard CCI.   A friend
put down an average Muley with 2900 fps with a side to side leaving a
half dollar sized exit.   I would think it would shine on heavy bodies like
elk and larger.    Like Nickle pretty much favor Sierra's for accuracy as they
do  well in most everything I own.   My mind could well change as I started
using Hornady stuff,and Noslers in 223 calibers.   A Ruger 77/22 Hornet eats
a 1" bull @100 yards with ten rounds using VMax.   Good report on AMax.   
All rifles seem to have a sweet spot for differing bullets, combinations of pow-
der and primers ;D

You sure are right about different rifles "liking" different loads.  I have my father in laws Rem. 742 in 30.06.  Thirty years ago he wouldn't have a rifle that he couldn't shoot less than quarter sized groups 25 yards with factory ammo.  The rifle I have was the third one they pulled off the shelf for him that day.  He would buy them, take them home, shoot'em and if they didn't shoot to suit him with Rem. 180 grn. corelokts he took it back and they "traded" even up for the one on the rack next to it.  All brand new 742's on the rack but some shot better than others.

It's the same with other rifles as well.  That's part of the fun of reloading.  Learning what load shoots best in your rifle.

Okey- enough with the lurking (that would be MY lurking)

Happy to report I got my Dillon full length resizer (carbide) back from the grinding shop today.

25 thou off the breech end.

Why, you might ask.

Since it is carbide, had to be ground with a diamond wheel. I had to take a load of carbide tools in for regrind anyway.......

I have had to be ruthless with that case guage. I have found that my 2.5 over minimum chamber in 'sweet jane' (much beloved smith enterprises M1A I have written about elsewhere on here)  is a little fussy about my reloads being too long. So my reject rate is running anywhere from 20 to 40 percent.

And I reguage early and often. Half my bench is a dedicated turret press for sizing, trimming, deswedging and priming (Dillon power trimmer/RCBS eight station turret/RCBS dedicated primier gizmo, and a Super swedge.

Other side is a Dillon 550B.

all on a table that measures 36" by 24", that I can work from either side....

Infact, I spend most of my reloading effort on case prep. Once I sit down to load at the progressive, it is almost anticlimactic.....

I have bags and bags of out of spec brass that I resized and trimmed already. Little black 'x' on the side of the case for 'reject'. My local Wizard advised me on the fix.....

Sat down with a sample of said rejects, lube, guage, turret press et al: Dialed the die down all the way and sized a case. NFG- fell in way past the minimum. Back it out half a turn. Another case. Almost there- still past minimum.

Final adjustment and now each and every case is good to go.  ;D

I get all quivery just thinking about it.

Hopefull that this might help someone else...

See 'yall on the appleseed trail next year.

Wow, never had any such issue with my SA M1A.  It seems to "eat" everything.

I may be wrong but it sounds like once you "make at case" for sweet jane you should keep it for sweet jane or you will be really shortening the life of the case due to the differences in how much the case has to be squeezed down to fit that particular rifle.  I have an old US Enfield with just the opposite problem.  The cases are so long after firing that if I neck size only they don't work in other rifles. 

Good luck with your new sizer.

Quote from: kool aid on December 05, 2007, 02:21:28 AM
...
I have had to be ruthless with that case guage. I have found that my 2.5 over minimum chamber in 'sweet jane' (much beloved smith enterprises M1A I have written about elsewhere on here)  is a little fussy about my reloads being too long. So my reject rate is running anywhere from 20 to 40 percent.
...

Not being familiar with case size gages ... 2.5 whats?  thousandths of an inch?
Also, you might epoxy a shim something <0.025" to the bottom of the die that way you have a shell holder/die hard stop regulating the distance the casing is pushed into the die, rather than some other more remote and perhaps more variable stop.   

there is a 'zero' head space- the absoute minimum (1.630 I think). a 'go' guage is usually five over that, and a 'field' guage is usually seven over that.

So I disassemble my bolt and put it back in the action, and then I go to the set of custom guages that range from zero (absolute minimum) all the way up past the field guage (the one that tells you you have a small ied instead of a rifle). There are even half sizes in that particular set.

I guage sequentilly from smallest to largest until I find the top limit of what it will close on (usually between three and four). For reasons we will not get into here, the tighter your chamber is (on a bolt gun at least), the more accruacy you can wring out of your stick. On a gas gun, the trade off is that if the chamber is too tight, the case isn't done expanding while the bolt is cycling, and you end up with extraction problems.

And for the record, sweet jane digests ANYTHING I have put through it that is mil surp.

Anyway, my new sizing die is shortened so I can fall within the minimum AND maximum case length. I determin this by using a case guage, which is just a hunk of metal that has a chamber cut into it, and the ends are flat. there are grooves cut in the breech and muzzle end of it. the bottom of those grooves represents the 'minimum' and the outer serface is the maximum.

so I put my prepped case into the guage, and I use my fingernail over the ends of the guage. if I feel any metal sticking above, it goes into the 'reject' can. same goes if it falls past the minimum, it goes into another can which is 'scrap'.

Hope that clarifies. I love this stuff. Just the kind of OCD activity that keeps me out of trouble.... ::)

QuoteHope that clarifies. I love this stuff. Just the kind of OCD activity that keeps me out of trouble....

You too? I thought I was the only one! Sitting there in the garage annealing cases one at a time with a MAPP torch, LOL. OCD fer sure. I do the fingernail trick also. Not exactly a precision measuring instrument, but hey, it works.

You don't mention trimming to length.  How do you know the shoulder bottoms out vs. the neck hitting the bottom?  Or is the hole the size of the neck so the only thing that touches inside is the shoulder? 

It just seems these days folks go to a lot of trouble I didn't go to (I did some things most folks don't today) so maybe it all works out.

If the brass all goes through the same die set up the same how can some be longer than others (unless its the neck)?

You say you had to have the sizer die shortened at the base?  What brand of die do you use?  I have Pacific and Lee and neither sizing die touches the shell holder at full upstroke of the press.

I made sure I had a case (or two) fired from my M1A.  I adjusted the resizing die (a little at a time) till it left a small dark ring of  resizing lub at the point where the neck and the shoulder meet.  I never had an issue with  chambering even though the case is not truly "full length resized".

I have a couple of other .308's to reload for now and I'll get to see if they can "digest" the loads I make for my rifle.

Have a good one.  See you at an Appleseed some day.

Quote from: kool aid on December 05, 2007, 05:21:21 PM
...
Hope that clarifies. I love this stuff. Just the kind of OCD activity that keeps me out of trouble.... ::)
...

I have found a certain six-step program to be helpful for this type of OCD.
First, you sling-up into position and align the sights...

I used to have OCD, I was a Bench Rest competitor. Gives OCD a whole new meaning.

I eventually got broke of it, and only shoot that way for fun once in a great while. Other than that, it's position shooting for me.

Thanks Fred, for helping me beat OCD.

I don't know about OCD (anal may describe it better  ;)), but I do enjoy experimenting with the whole reloading process. 

It relaxes me and is almost as much fun as shooting. ;D (yeah, almost)

Quote from: M1A4ME on December 05, 2007, 07:15:51 PM
You don't mention trimming to length.  How do you know the shoulder bottoms out vs. the neck hitting the bottom?  Or is the hole the size of the neck so the only thing that touches inside is the shoulder? 

It just seems these days folks go to a lot of trouble I didn't go to (I did some things most folks don't today) so maybe it all works out.

If the brass all goes through the same die set up the same how can some be longer than others (unless its the neck)?

You say you had to have the sizer die shortened at the base?  What brand of die do you use?  I have Pacific and Lee and neither sizing die touches the shell holder at full upstroke of the press.

I made sure I had a case (or two) fired from my M1A.  I adjusted the resizing die (a little at a time) till it left a small dark ring of  resizing lub at the point where the neck and the shoulder meet.  I never had an issue with  chambering even though the case is not truly "full length resized".

I have a couple of other .308's to reload for now and I'll get to see if they can "digest" the loads I make for my rifle.

Have a good one.  See you at an Appleseed some day.

I trim with a power trimmer on the turret head. sorry I didn't clarify.

The case guage is like a hollow tube with a chamber in it; it has minimum grooves on the muzzle end as well as at the breech end. Its called a forrester guage....

I am using the wazoo custom OCD special dillon full length carbide resize die.

Oh, and I don't have the bench in the garage..... I have it set up next to my bed :P

Yeah, that's right.

"Oh, and I don't have the bench in the garage..... I have it set up next to my bed :P "

;D I love it, but just one question - is your wife jealous?

reloading is meant for shotshells, anything that you can buy army surpluss and still have the same if not better results than your handloads is not worth reloading. although if anyone can figure out a hand load that would take enough windage out of the 22 hornet while still remaining ballistically safe contact me and i just might take back what i said.

congratulations nickle on kicking the habit

Quote from: scopeboy001 on December 06, 2007, 01:34:36 PM
reloading is meant for shotshells, anything that you can buy army surpluss and still have the same if not better results than your handloads is not worth reloading. although if anyone can figure out a hand load that would take enough windage out of the 22 hornet while still remaining ballistically safe contact me and i just might take back what i said.

congratulations nickle on kicking the habit

Surplus has it's place, it's great for practice (Boston sez - surplus ammo turns money into skill) and WTSHTF ammo (I shoot the hell out of it and stack it deep), but you cannot get the same or better results with it compared to a handload - that's why you handload, because your loads are better (and it's fun ;D). 

I can load a SMK for about ten cents more/bullet than the current price of surplus ball or a premium hunting bullet for at least half the cost of factory ammo (and these loads are more accurate as they're tailored to my rifles).  I'm sure Nickle can beat that with the connections, discounts, experience, equipment, and skill that he has available.

I feel the opposite about shotgun shells, though -  I buy factory for 12's and 20's.  Unless it's a 16 or 28 gauge it's not worth reloading for IMHO.

Quote from: scopeboy001 on December 06, 2007, 01:34:36 PM

congratulations nickle on kicking the habit

Wasn't a habit, it was a different shooting discipline. We even had several High Power competitors that were fellow Bench Rest shooters. I left it because it was turning into too much money and too much time drain on me.

There's a big difference between a Bench Rest Competitor and a guy that always goes to the range and shoots from the bench. I'm the first one, not the second one.

None of my fellow competitors (or me) would even think about shooting a Battle Rifle (as in an AR) from the bench, unless they were working up a load or testing something on it (thereby needing to eliminate the "human factor" as much as possible).

About handloads? Well, you won't shoot any 1/4 MOA or smaller groups with Surplus ammo.

Me, I reload for 3 reasons. Cost, Qualitity, and well, I'm in the business of it (part-time for now, full time when I retire from my current job in a couple of years). Type 06 Ammo Manufacturer, as well as Type 01 FFL.

i will allow whoever said that they prefer factory shotgun loads to hand loads to keep believing whatever they want to, but i for one am not yet able to find a factory load that i can use out of my high-end trap gun and still be able to achieve a 18 inch pattern using size 8 shot at 30yrds like i can with my handloads. also as a 16 yr old of a rather slight build, handloading is just a little bit better, using my 12ga handloads i can get a load that puts out the pattern i said earlier at a velosity of around  1250 fps, all while generating around approximately around 10 to 12 pounds of total recoil out of a standard barrel and approx. 8 to 9 lbs of recoil out of a ported barrel. using a full choke.

Quote from: scopeboy001 on December 07, 2007, 12:39:22 PM
i will allow whoever said that they prefer factory shotgun loads to hand loads to keep believing whatever they want to, but i for one am not yet able to find a factory load that i can use out of my high-end trap gun and still be able to achieve a 18 inch pattern using size 8 shot at 30yrds like i can with my handloads. also as a 16 yr old of a rather slight build, handloading is just a little bit better, using my 12ga handloads i can get a load that puts out the pattern i said earlier at a velosity of around  1250 fps, all while generating around approximately around 10 to 12 pounds of total recoil out of a standard barrel and approx. 8 to 9 lbs of recoil out of a ported barrel. using a full choke.

That was me that said that. It usually refers to duplicating factory loads, though, which is something you're NOT doing. Quality of reloaded shotshells is usually less than factory loads, assuming the loads are the same. (Rifle and pistol ammo, though, handloads are actually much better, if the reloader knows what he's doing.)

When you're shooting a hundred or so a week, factory loads get pricey, even at club prices. I have reloaded shotshells, and frankly speaking, I did it for cost issues, mostly. If I was still shooting Skeet, I'd still be reloading shotshells.

So, in your case, reloading shotshells makes complete sense, as you're loading something that can NOT be bought (or at least easily bought).

I'll admit up front I'm as bad as anyone else about thread drift, hijacking, etc.

Now that I've admitted my issues can I please remind us all to get this one back on reloading for .308's, 7.62X51, etc?

Thanks.

Ran across this somewhere.  Sorry if I've already shared it.  If not, enjoy.

Good stuff M1A4ME, well worth read for great information!

Quote from: M1A4ME on December 09, 2007, 01:23:20 PM
Ran across this somewhere.  Sorry if I've already shared it.  If not, enjoy.

Yeah,  I posted it earlier in the thread.  Good info.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=277.msg5896#msg5896

Good info to be had in Mstr. Sgt. Jim Owen's book "Sight Alignment, Trigger control and the Big Lie" on page 81. He uses a gauge to measure run out on a per rifle / load basis. He also sells the gauges or can certainly point you to someone that does. He also sells wind charts that are round specific, and his books are excellent for expert and novice alike. He is a NRA HP competitor, and that course of fire is very similar to Appleseeds program in terms of shooting portion. I would recommend his books to anyone that has already been to Appleseeds or a RBC.
http://www.jarheadtop.com/
PHenry

Sorry, wcmartin1.  I was trying to organize my files into folders and ran across it.  I must have downloaded when you posted the link.  I didn't remember where it came from.  I "collect" any information that seems like it might be of value for later use.  Keep it up.  Good info is good info.

Quote from: M1A4ME on December 10, 2007, 07:30:14 PM
Sorry, wcmartin1.  I was trying to organize my files into folders and ran across it.  I must have downloaded when you posted the link.  I didn't remember where it came from.  I "collect" any information that seems like it might be of value for later use.  Keep it up.  Good info is good info.

No offense taken, Sir.  Glad you found it useful. 

The match load Zediker recommends in the text box on page 12 is comparable to the M852 load that Nickle shared in a previous post (M852 uses xx.x gr IMR4985, but this one uses .5 gr less of H4895.  However, Zediker recommends CCI BR2 primers and I use CCI No. 34's exclusively in my M1A).  It's a good 600 yard load with Lake City or Federal brass and I can safely get five reloads with it in my rifle.

You know I continue to hear about how the 7.62X51 has some issues at longer ranges (past 500 to 600 yds.??)  Yet I keep reading in that new book I've been posting about that at various places guys shot the M1 at 500 to 800 yds.  One guy wrote about being near the Siegfried Line and (while he never hit anyone) making the German soldiers duck, dodge and run at a range of 1200 yds. with his M1.  The M1's used a flatbase bullet.  Are the flatbase bullets less subject to being "upset" when slowing down below/approaching subsonic?

Quote from: M1A4ME on December 10, 2007, 09:14:14 PM
You know I continue to hear about how the 7.62X51 has some issues at longer ranges (past 500 to 600 yds.??)  Yet I keep reading in that new book I've been posting about that at various places guys shot the M1 at 500 to 800 yds.  One guy wrote about being near the Siegfried Line and (while he never hit anyone) making the German soldiers duck, dodge and run at a range of 1200 yds. with his M1.  The M1's used a flatbase bullet.  Are the flatbase bullets less subject to being "upset" when slowing down below/approaching subsonic?

There is more to it than that.  For example the .308 Sierra Match King - 168s misbehave when dropping subsonic, but 175 SMKs are fine - often being fired with success well past 1000 yards.  I've shot my .308 at 1000 yards some each of the past two weekends to good effect.

Accurate fire with an M1 and WWII ammo (.30-06 AP) at 500 to 800 yards was definitely possible with a competent rifleman.  Harassing fire at 1200 would also be possible, but definitely with a huge accuracy and energy drop.

I don't know the answer to your question, but due to 7.62x51 cartridge limitations (50,000 psi) and the M14's action it's max effective range is around 800 yards as you can't push the bullet fast enough to stay supersonic much farther than that. 

The Garand with it's 30-06 is ~ 100 fps faster which may have something to do with it (Hmmm...but, the ballistic coefficient of a flat-base 150 gr bullet is definitely lower than a 168 gr or 175 gr SMK - which rules out this argument.)

Whatever the case - tumbling bullets at 1,200 yards that were close would make me duck too.

I do know that the Palma shooters are using 155 gr .308 SMK's in bolt guns and pushing them fast enough to stay supersonic at 1,000 yards.

Edited to add:

Just saw Atlas Shrug's comment of his experience at 1,000 yards with 175's.  I believe it, but I was typing when he posted.

Its not hard to to keep 175 SMK's supersonic at 1000 yds but it does take very careful hand loading because you are pushing the limits and right up against the pressur limits of a M-14.

It must be the transition from supersonic to subsonic that causes the problem (which could be affected by bullet design/shape).  I say this because the old black powder jobs (the best rifles/bullets/shooters) of the late 1800's were supposed to have been able to put 10 shots in a 12" group at 1000 yds.  And I doubt those bullets were supersonic anywhere in their travel.

The farthest I've ever shot is 600 yds. (and the holes were still round) so I don't have any experience at farther ranges (maybe one of these days).

Quote from: M1A4ME on December 10, 2007, 10:21:04 PM
It must be the transition from supersonic to subsonic that causes the problem

Exactly.

Quote from: wcmartin1 on December 10, 2007, 10:25:12 PM

Quote from: M1A4ME on December 10, 2007, 10:21:04 PM
It must be the transition from supersonic to subsonic that causes the problem

Exactly.

That is the issue. And it's been well documented.

For clarity, the 1,000 yard .308 work I referred to was with a bolt gun, not an M14 or Garand platform.  The rounds were 175 SMKs and they were likely still supersonic at that distance.

That said, such ballistics are almost exactly that of the M118LR** round, which I'm pretty sure is being used to good effect in the sand box.  Thus they should be OK in an M14, likely so with a Garand - but I've not tested the latter yet.

** (175 gr. SMK, 44 gr. RL15, Lake City brass, and Fed 210M primers [I'm pretty sure] being the recipe for M118LR from what I've been told by someone who should know.....)


My point is that going much past 1000 with the 175s would have made them subsonic, but they appear to perform well past that transition (well proven by others, but not me - not yet  :) ).  The 168s however tend to misbehave more during the supersonic to subsonic transition, hence it's more critical with these to keep them supersonic all the way to the target.

Yes, the big fat old lead slugs do fine way out there in general.  Exterior ballistics is a deep and fascinating subject, of which I recognize I've only scratched the surface of......

Hey where are you guys getting 308 brass from.  The best deal that I could find is like 125 per 1000. 

Thanks
Raymon

Haven't bought any for a while.  I've been reloading surplus. ;D

i dont know about all of u guys,
but i personally enjoy shooting subsonic rounds.
i find great pleasure in squeezing off a shot, then moving to my spotting scope in time to watch the effects of the round hitting the target in real-time as it happens.

but thats just my opinion.  { accounting for a larger arc in trajectory is also a challenge that i enjoy taking on as a result}

Quote from: scopeboy001 on December 17, 2007, 01:32:16 PM
i dont know about all of u guys,
but i personally enjoy shooting subsonic rounds.
i find great pleasure in squeezing off a shot, then moving to my spotting scope in time to watch the effects of the round hitting the target in real-time as it happens.

but thats just my opinion.  { accounting for a larger arc in trajectory is also a challenge that i enjoy taking on as a result}

Haven't tried it with subsonic rounds. 

With iron sights and surplus or match reloads I am able to see the bullet splash indicating a miss or hear the impact of a hit on the steel (non-reactive) silhouette.

However, I do have several bolt guns with scopes and am able to recover from the recoil in time to see the impact through their scopes at 500 yards.  It's easier with a 22-250, but I can also do it with a 30-06. 

Yeah, it's cool. ;)

Quote from: scopeboy001 on December 17, 2007, 01:32:16 PM
i dont know about all of u guys,
but i personally enjoy shooting subsonic rounds.
i find great pleasure in squeezing off a shot, then moving to my spotting scope in time to watch the effects of the round hitting the target in real-time as it happens.

but thats just my opinion.  { accounting for a larger arc in trajectory is also a challenge that i enjoy taking on as a result}

If you move off the rifle and look through the scope fast enough to see the round hit, then your follow through must really be awful.  I strongly discourage you from doing this if you have any hopes of being a good shot.

Watching it through the scope on your rifle is another matter.  Reacquiring your sight picture is part of proper follow through.

Atlas Shrug,
When I was shooting in competition it was standard practice, at least among High Masters when shooting at 1000 yards, to come off the rifle and watch the contrail of the bullet through the scope as it went down range. This meant moving your head about two inches as the scope was positioned just left of the rifle. There were valuable things you learned by watching the bullets path. We were taught this technique by the team coaches but it was only used at the 1000 yard range.

Sometimes techniques get picked up by less experienced shooters without a full understanding of why they are being done. It would be usless at shorter ranges and I would never recommend it for anyone not competing at a high level in long range competition.

VAshooter

Quote from: VAshooter on December 18, 2007, 11:22:46 AM
Atlas Shrug,
When I was shooting in competition it was standard practice, at least among High Masters when shooting at 1000 yards, to come off the rifle and watch the contrail of the bullet through the scope as it went down range. This meant moving your head about two inches as the scope was positioned just left of the rifle. There were valuable things you learned by watching the bullets path. We were taught this technique by the team coaches but it was only used at the 1000 yard range.

Sometimes techniques get picked up by less experienced shooters without a full understanding of why they are being done. It would be usless at shorter ranges and I would never recommend it for anyone not competing at a high level in long range competition.

VAshooter

Agreed, with these caveats:

-only at 1000 yards (or more)
-only with a 45 degree angle scope
-only to watch the bullet trail
-only with still having a good follow through
-only by a competent shooter

With the scope properly set up and done by a competent shooter, you don't even need to move your head from the stock - just look over.  However, IMHO, it's still better to do this as a coach and have the shooter work on follow through and shot call.  Then switch.  Two heads are much better than one.  :)

Done in the above form, there is value.  Generically jumping off the scope to watch, however, is a very bad habit I've seen too many shooters try.  None of them were any good.   :(

That's why I jumped on scopeboy.  It's not a technique I'd recommend to most folks.

Quote from: sanderman79 on December 12, 2007, 09:40:16 PM
Hey where are you guys getting 308 brass from.  The best deal that I could find is like 125 per 1000. 

Thanks
Raymon

That sounds like a "Grab It Before It Goes Away" deal to me.

Quote from: scopeboy001 on December 17, 2007, 01:32:16 PM
i dont know about all of u guys,
but i personally enjoy shooting subsonic rounds.
i find great pleasure in squeezing off a shot, then moving to my spotting scope in time to watch the effects of the round hitting the target in real-time as it happens.

but thats just my opinion.  { accounting for a larger arc in trajectory is also a challenge that i enjoy taking on as a result}

I would enjoy doing that also, if I could move that fast.......

Has any one heard of small base full length sizing die? I'm using a Forster BR full length die for reloading ammo for a Panther 308 LR and not all the brass want to feed. I have mic. Factory brass at .467 at 1/8 to ¼ up from the base. Once fired brass is running .472 to .474. The once fired brass from the Panther is running at .468 After resizing the other once fired brass it is running .469 to .4695. At this size the brass dose not like to feed and will hang. I can work the brass through the die a few times and with a little polishing get it down to .4678.

Redwolf,

plenty of options out there for small base full length.  I personally use the RCBS Xdie

http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/search?search_keywords=308+small+base&category_selector=all_products

Todd

I believe there's some smallbase die thoughts and experiences posted earlier in this thread.

Quote from: jrturbo on January 13, 2008, 04:44:36 PM
Redwolf,

plenty of options out there for small base full length.  I personally use the RCBS Xdie

http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/search?search_keywords=308+small+base&category_selector=all_products

Todd

Thanks to all and Thank jrturbo
I did a search and did not see any thing on small base dies. May be I should have tried a couple of different phrases.  However, in my search at another forum I did find that small base dies are the ticket for reloading of semi-auto's. Especially if the chamber is close tolerance. These dies bring the brass back closer to the factory spec. Midway carries them and I plan to get one on order.

Sorry, Redwolf, it was in this thread:

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=874.0

It's on the second or third page, but there is a bunch of good info starting on page one.

Hell, there's a tons of good info in the whole Reloading section for light reading in your spare time. ;D

Thanks wcmartin1, your right, good stuff. I have one on order and hope it will be here by Friday. I need to get some loading done for  Ramseur in Feb.

I received the 308 RCBS small base sizing die Friday and loaded up a few rounds today. They worked like a champ. Thanks for the help.

Quote from: wcmartin1 on September 21, 2007, 02:04:54 PM
FYI - Here is an eMail I sent to Alliant Powder and their response:

To: alliant.reloading@atk.com
Subject: Reloader 15 and 7.62 MM, Ball Special, M118: Long Range
X-Attachments: D:\Documents\GunStuff\TM 43-0001-27 7_62 NATO[M118LR].pdf;

According to your information about Reloader 15 (which I have used for years in several rifles) it is the powder that was "Selected as the powder for U.S. Military's M118 special ball long range sniper round."

Looking at the Army Ammunition Data Sheets (TM 43-0001-27) it lists the propellent as "WC 750".  Is this Reloader 15?  I would like to safely duplicate this load and would appreciate any information or load data that you can provide.

I am attaching the data sheet for your convenience.  Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.  Should you have any questions or require additional information, please advise.


And their response:

"I am not sure what the military calls our RL 15, but I have been told in the past that 44 grs was the charge.  We do not give this information out because that charge exceeds the amount recommended in the Sierra manual with their 175 gr bullet and RL 15.  According to Sierra they start with 35.8 grs @ 2200 fps and the max is 41.3 grs @ 2600 fps.  I recommend that you use the Sierra data.  Thanks for your interest in contacting us and let me know if you have any additional questions.  Have a nice day."

I think I will buy a box of loaded M118LR (expensive - $30/20 rounds) to see if my rifle (M1A Standard/Loaded/Stainless/Synthetic) likes this load as well or better than my 168 grain load (168 gr. SMK/41.5 gr. H4895) before I proceed.  This rifle has a 1 in 11" twist with 6 groove rifling.  I have heard that 6 groove rifling likes 168's better than 175's and the 1 in 11" may not stabilize 175's as well as 1 in 10" but I will have to find out for myself.

I have had success with 42 grs. of Reloader 15 and 165 gr. Nosler BT that I used in this rifle to take a whitetail buck last year and it was accurate (4/5 hits on 500 yard steel silhouette in failing light [dusk] from prone w/sling), but I have heard that this powder may be slightly slow for this action.

In addition, Nickle, thanks for your thoughts on this matter yesterday as follows:

"Well, checking Alliant's website, they show 42.8 to 45.5 gr  max loads with 168/165 grain Sierra's and 44 gr for the 180 Speer bullets. I saw what they say about RL-15 being the powder. Yeah, I'd use it, and start low, then work up. An alternative is to make M852 Match, rather than M118LR. Use 42 gr of 4895 and the Sierra 168 gr bullet. I'm real partial to this load, and up to 600 yards, it should work well. Past 600, you're going to want the 175 gr or heavier bullet."

Final Note: 

I am not condoning the use of the loads listed above in your rifle, I am only sharing my experience and thoughts using these components.  This information and data may vary considerably depending on many factors, including the components used, component assembly, the type of firearm used, reloading techniques, safety precautions practiced, etc. 

The individual accessing this site assumes the risk of safe loading practices. Failure to do so could result in severe personal injury (or death) and/or property damage.

When Alliant first got the contract to supply RL15 for the new sniper round, the load was published on their web site, along with the usual caveat.  It stated that the load is about 1.5gr over charge from SAAMI specs for the .308.  It was over 44gr.

I chrono'd some '03 M118LR (listed at 2700fps) against the load that was listed, except I used once fired Norma brass (which was 8gr lighter than the LC).

LC M118LR '03 averaged at 2650fps.

The reload averaged at 2699fps.

These loads were fired from a PGWDTI Coyote.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/RePete/HPIM1302.jpg)

I won't publish this load.  If you want it, PM only.

I don't recommend this load for the M14 series of rifles.

RePete,

Nice stick.  Is that an M14 mag in it?

I too am a recovering Bench Rest competitor, but only because our local San Gabriel range has closed and I'm too lazy to drive to Viselia. 

That said, reading the information about military brass having such thick necks (there is a joke there somewhere, but I digress) has anyone tried the Redding or Forester dies with neck bushings and a carbide expander.  I am not suggesting to neck turn (a neurosis best left for bolt guns), just to adjust the amount of resizing to the type of brass being used to not work it too much.

Also has anyone had experience with the Gracey trimmer?  Anything that I can do to reduce case prep time seems like a good thing to me.

Cheers

I have used RL15 for loads with 175 and 180 Sierra Matchkings with great results.
41 to 43g's
Brass both commercial and surplus.
High 26-- / low 27-- fps
DPMS LR308, 24 stainless.

I have also used Varget using the same loads with great results. The Varget seems to burn a little cleaner for me.
This stick really likes the 180 at 600+ yds.  The 180 is also good in high cross winds too.
I have tried the 168 Sierra and they worked good but can get push off a fair amount in cross winds. For one reason or another, 168's would key hole at 600+ yd. May be one in every 20 to 30 rounds not sure why they become unstable.
These loads have also been use in my FAL and they do a ok job. I have only tested out to 300yds using iron sights. The plans are to mount a scope and bench it to find out what it can do.   ;D

can some one give me a load for 7.62 for my enfield

the only powder i have on hand for rifles right now is win 748

ive been doing 43 gr for a 150gr soft point

Take a look here.  Your rifle is different than other rifles (even ones of the same type) so you need to start below the maximum load listed and work your way up till you get an accurate load.  Accuracy is more important than velocity.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Starting low means 10%, or about 4 grains.  Watch the primers for signs of pressure.  When they start to flatten out around the edges where they meet the brass of the primer pocket.  Sometimes you'll see the primer start to get a ridge around the spot where the firing pin dimpled it - but that can also be an enlarged hole in the bolt face, so watch the edges, too.

Got a strange question to you gun guru's out there. I've picked up bulk 150gr. fmj boattail 30 cal at a good price thru Midway. I know most 30 cal will interchange to a degree, so my M1a-M1garand will share this, but my 30.30 is questionable at this moment. I tried setting the  bullet oglive to end of cartidge spacing to match that of a factory 30.30 load which caused it not to eject unfired. By setting it up shorter, it did eject properly but I feel I may be holding it a little back on the riflings. These rounds grouped 2.5" at 50 yds. first try with  an unsteady rest. I will try a better rest and see results. NOTE--- This loading is strictly a single shot function specialty load.You must load these one at a time directly into the chamber for single fire. Loading the rifle's tube can and most likely will cause a discharge of a round in the tube upon firing your first shot!!!! I'm merely picking the brains of you to see if any have experimented in this concept.

Quote from: kissell on December 19, 2008, 06:14:28 PM
Got a strange question to you gun guru's out there. I've picked up bulk 150gr. fmj boattail 30 cal at a good price thru Midway. I know most 30 cal will interchange to a degree, so my M1a-M1garand will share this, but my 30.30 is questionable at this moment. I tried setting the  bullet oglive to end of cartidge spacing to match that of a factory 30.30 load which caused it not to eject unfired. By setting it up shorter, it did eject properly but I feel I may be holding it a little back on the riflings. These rounds grouped 2.5" at 50 yds. first try with  an unsteady rest. I will try a better rest and see results. NOTE--- This loading is strictly a single shot function specialty load.You must load these one at a time directly into the chamber for single fire. Loading the rifle's tube can and most likely will cause a discharge of a round in the tube upon firing your first shot!!!! I'm merely picking the brains of you to see if any have experimented in this concept.

If you're single loading anyway, the fact that they don't eject exactly right does not seem to be that big of an issue to me - single loading/single ejecting.

You're trying to go for accuracy so either load them shorter than normal where they'll eject properly in your rifle (and they'll jump to the lands) while experimenting with different powder charges until you find the sweet spot and/or load them longer (closer to the lands) until you find the optimum length for a particular load.

FWIW, I load standard 30/30 Remington CoreLokt bullets with a near max load of RE15 in my Marlin 336 and they group fairly well (2-3 moa with irons).  I don't feel underpowered hunting deer up to ~ 200 yards with this load. 

I know it's fun to experiment, but don't try to make 30/30 into .308, Sir.  Good luck.

Edited to add:  BTW - thanks for bringing the 30/30 up.  I ain't shot the ol' gal in a while.  Sounds like fun.  Gonna hafta break 'er out.  O0

Do they load into the magazine and work through the action to the chamber?  If so, load 2, work the lever and you now have two quick shots, one in the chamber and one in the magazine (2's better than 1).

Distance the bullet "jumps" before it contacts the rifling can affect accuracy according to the match shooters.  Don't know if you could tell any effect on a lever gun or not when shot under less than steady conditions.

Seating the bullet deeper does reduce case capacity resulting in an increase in pressure unless the powder is reduced.  Watch those primers.  I'm not sure what a 30.30 is good for pressure wise vs. a .308 or 30.06 so it may be too much pressure for the action before it begins to affect primer appearance as it would in a .308 or 30.06.

 Thanks for the advice! I've shot 6 loads with no sign of pressure related problems. Primers look good, cases look good and eject smoothly. Was concerned with case capacity upon viewing a 32.5 gr load of IMR4064, so I reduced it to 32.0. Sure it slowed it down a bit, but, better safe than sorry. Will work on some more detailed loading soon. Hope to get a little better grouping with these FMJ's than the old flatnoses. Could go with high dollar bullets and acheive this, but we need to learn how to improvise and apply what we have. That gets the most out of what we have.


"A free people rule thier government, while an oppressed people are ruled by thier government"

Not trying to give you a hard time about your rifle here, but most 30-30's are built for MOD (minute of deer) shooting.  The cartridge, power wise and usual use wise, is an acceptable 150 to 200 yd. cartridge.  I've seen some that did good to hit a 3 lb. coffer can at 100 yds., from a rested position.

The more expensive bullets (I assume you are talking about match bullets) might make a little difference in your groups but probably not much.  The issues of bolt lock up and squareness to the chamber (probably minor at this point), fore end and barrel band pressure on the barrel, lack of a sling or the effect of the sling (mounting method), the sights, etc.

You didn't say what you own but for what it's worth I think the Marlin's have a better reputation for accuracy than the Winchesters.  You know, have you thought about casting bullets?  The 30-30 velocities are about right for hard cast bullets with gas checks.  It's not so much the shape of the bullet that affects longer range accuracy (velocity, yes).  Around the turn of the century the best shots of that time were able to shoot 10 shot groups of around 12" at 1000 yds. - with black powder and lead round nosed bullets.  Trajectory was like indirect fire, but the groups were great.

Don't interpret any of the above as advice to give up.  It's just info to keep in mind.  If you don't pursue it yourself you won't learn as much as you will from just listening to advice and who knows, you might find a way to really improve the accuracy of that old rifle.

Good luck with it.  And have fun, too.

I don't know how to make a new thread,so I'll put this here. I use varget in my M1-A reloads. The bullet I use is the sierra 2200 btjhp 168 grain. I have good success with that load. My question is what primer is preferred. I am using remington 9 1/2 large rifle.. I think it's 9 1/2..anyway,now primers aren't as easy to find,and I want to buy a large amount of primers,eg,5k..

Should I stay with the remington,or go to CCI ? Basically,does anyone have any trouble loading CCI primers..years ago,I had problems with them because they are with such a thick outer case,and I had some FTF in pistol cartridges. Thanks.  :)

I shoot both Remington 9-1/2's and Federal 210's in my 308 match ammo, with the 210's being the better of the two in my rifles.  CCI's were seldom seen on the line back when I shot high power with a 308.  Never asked why.

Quote from: wcmartin1 on June 18, 2008, 08:32:42 PM
RePete,

Nice stick.  Is that an M14 mag in it?

Been of for longer than I realised.

No, it's an AI mag.  The same ones that are used by Badger Ordnance.

I am reloading for a M1A. I have read this whole thread twice and have some questions. I have tried the load from the attachment a few pages back 40.5 H4895 in mil brass, 168 gr Sierra MK, coal 2.8in, CCI BR primers and this is an excellent load. Once I get this rifle to fit me I would like to try some shooting at 1000yds. Does H4895 work well for the 175gr SMK or do I have to go slower? Not looking for smoking velocity, just safe long range accuracy out of my M1A. Also a question about primers. I read somewhere that Federal primers might be soft for the M1A which is why I bought the CCI primers. What is the best for the M1A? Thanks for any help...Tommy

Stick with the 4895 or Varget.  Going to slower burning powders (ideal for heavier bullets) is NOT ideal for the gas system on your M1A.  It will drive the pressure at the gas port into a range where damage to the gas system/op rod is likely.

"Does H4895 work well for the 175gr SMK or do I have to go slower? Not looking for smoking velocity, just safe long range accuracy"


Powders w/ burn rate  between IMR3031 and IMR4320 are applicable for for gas auto rifles. Varget and either of the 4895s' will serve well.

Currently, R15 is very much in favor for use w/ the 175SMK. It is reported that this powder is used to load this bullet for the U.S. military LR 7.62X51 sniper/match load.

Everything I've come to understand regards loading for gas autos, especially op-rod designs, clearly indicates  that reloading for these beasts is not a good venue for re-inventing the wheel. Go w/ what has been established. Leave exprimenting to the ammo companies and the arsenals.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=277.msg5896#msg5896

and

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=277.msg9542#msg9542

Reloader15 is indeed the powder for the M-118Long range load with the 175 grain Sierra boat tail match bullet BUT,,,     For anything beyond about 600 yards you'll need a faster twist barrel like 1/10 to really stabilize it out to 1000 or 1200 yards. That bullet flies best and groups best at about 2600 feet per second. O0 Now, if you have a 1/12 twist barrel, the 168s work best inside 500 yards with the 4895. My M1A loves 'em. :o Good luck finding any powder @@)

Accurate posts this load in their manual....40.5 gr - 46.5 gr load for a 168 gr. bullet using Accurate 2520 ..Does anyone have experience with this powder and how pleased were you with the results in a M1A (National Match Barrel)?    Using this powder, where was the performance satisfactory, in terms of the powder grains on a 168 gr. bullet, and the performance of the M1A, if any?  I know there may be other choices of a better suited powder but, I need to load what I have on hand, so please limit your experiences to this powder only for now..
Thank you,
David

Quote from: djones308sniper on March 22, 2009, 07:19:53 PM
Accurate posts this load in their manual....40.5 gr - 46.5 gr load for a 168 gr. bullet using Accurate 2520 ..Does anyone have experience with this powder and how pleased were you with the results in a M1A (National Match Barrel)?    Using this powder, where was the performance satisfactory, in terms of the powder grains on a 168 gr. bullet, and the performance of the M1A, if any?  I know there may be other choices of a better suited powder but, I need to load what I have on hand, so please limit your experiences to this powder only for now..
Thank you,
David

The Sierra data I've got lists the starting load for this powder with a 168 gr MK as 36.9 gr and a max load of 42.2 gr.  If it was me, I would load twenty rounds with a COL of 2.80",  five different charges, four bullets each charge starting at 40.0 gr and increasing in .5 gr increments until I reached 42.0 gr.  Four-shot groups shooting from a bench while watching group size and looking for pressure signs (I don't shoot from a bench other than for load development) you should be able to find the sweet spot in there somewhere. 

Make sure you full-length resize and check your cases with a gauge before shooting in your M1A.  Good luck, Sir.

44.2 gr Reloader 15 and a 168gr Sierra Match Kings give me nice 3 shot one ragged hole groups at 100 yd with my AR10-T off a bench with windflags to eliminate the wind variable.  Opens up to a 4 and 1 when trying 5 shot groups though.

I have a bunch of loads ready to go with 2520, but haven't had the time to go to the range to sort out what works with that powder.

BTW the best metering powder I have ever used is Reloader 15 bar none.  I know that the best accuracy loads in the 6.5 x 47 Lapua use Reloader 15, and I'm beginning to suspect it is partly due to how well it meters.

Cheers

Does anyone out there have a M1A load for the 150 grain Barnes TSX all copper projectile?

Preferably from the Barnes reloading manual, but a tested load for Gas operated rifles would work...

Thanks in advance...
Cameron

btt

New question:

I've seen several mentions of Accurate 2520.  Does anyone have experience with Accurate 2495??  My understanding (from the PDF attached earlier) is that it is very similar to H4895 or IMR4895.  I'm just getting interested in reloading and can't find H4895 or IMR4895, but did find some 2495.  I'm thinking about working up some loads with the following:  once-fired LC brass, CCI #34 primers, Accurate 2495 and some 147-150 grain bullets (haven't pulled and weighed them yet) I plan to pull from some '69 Czech loads that are loose in the cases.  I don't really want to shoot the Czech stuff in my M1A because 1) I'm not sure how it was stored and, 2) it's corrosive, so I figured I'd just pull the bullets and make some fresh loads.  These loads are basically for the field shoots out to 500 yds at Ramseur.

Any thoughts??

Dear Sir
  I reload for .308, in my M1A and 30-06 in my M1 as well, The A2495 will work just fine in both, the pressure curve is right for these rifles, I also use my favorite IMR4895, which these rifles were designed around in the begining,, remember to work your load up to your rifle, keep it under max for these rifles, they don't like to be over powered, plus parts are getting hard to find and very expensive, but I am sure you know that.  Hope this helps,  your zero will change, mine changed by 3 mins. at 300yds at 5 o'clock in my M1 Garand, no big deal there just shoot in lots after zeroing for new load, 
ppss, if it's corrosive, I pull'em period, they never get within a mile of my gas operated rifles, I shoot leagues all year with mine, don't have time to clean that harshly, plus it will rust out your equipment in a heart beat             sgtrock

Got a question for you guys. Dug through all the posts and only a couple mention 180gr bullets. I've got a bunch of 180 hot cores and load data out of the Speer manual. Has anyone tried this combo out of the LR-10 platform?...O.L.

my lr 308 had a stock DPMS 10 twist barrel and did ok with 175 gr, 180 would probably be at the edge for a 10 twist in a semi auto

OL:

If it's 1:10, those 180s will stabilize fine.  My only concern is that 180 is heavy for caliber, especially in a gas gun.  I'd be a little cautious how I loaded them...DI guns are not as port-pressure sensitive as a Garand or M1A but there still is a concern.  I've loaded a fair bit for an AR-10 20" but I never loaded anything heavier than 168s.  When it comes to my rifles...and I've got several 308s...175s and 180s are reserved for bolt guns.

I use use Varget for powder with 308 and 30-06.  My go-to bolt gun load for 308 is 175 grain Nosler Competitions BTHPs in Lapua Brass, WLR primers, and 42.5 gr of Varget.  But to me, that load is too hot for use in a semi-auto.  2600 fps in a 24" Remington 5R, 1:11.25" twist.

-David
Edgewood, NM

My M1A had the best groups ever with 180 grain Sierra matchkings and it has a one turn in 11" barrel.  1 turn in 10" is supposed to be even better for the heavier bullets.

What is this I am hearing about "small base dies" being required for M1A? I was recently told that standard Dillon (or others) will not cycle properly in M1A??? I find hard to imagine as I have run a lot of factory reloads thru one and never notices a problem.

It is even mentioned in this publication:

Thanks guys, since it's my wifes gun, I'll try it! :) Just kidding honey!  ;)  Got solid data in the Speer manual, the only difference will be the brass. And I'll keep them on the light side, wasn't too concerned on the gas system but with increased recoil might be an issue. 165gr Rem Accu-Tips in front of 45grs of Varget are tack drivers out of it. I'll post how it goes....O.L.

small base dies may be a good idea for the first resizing if you buy brass that may have been from a MG, after that only use SB dies if needed for reliable function as they will shorten the life of the brass

Anyone tired of me saying, "every rifle is different."

My M1A is over 30 years old, came from the factory with a match barrel (1 turn in 11 inches with 6 lands/grooves - so it ain't GI, oh yeah, its stamped NM, Geneseo, IL on the bottom of the barrel) and the Pacific (Hornady) .308 dies I bought for it back then have resized brass just fine.  Any brass, all brass, all the time.

For that matter, if rifle chambers can be cut differently from one barrel to the next then I figure dies could be different as well.

Its quite possible another rifle with a match chamber/barrel could not use reloads from standard dies and its quite possible a standard/issue barrel might require small base dies.

Try it and see.  Small base dies, if you don't need them, will "work" the brass more and possibly shorten life (number of times you can reload it.)

Or, of course if you have multiple semi-auto rifles in the caliber.  That way no worries about functioning.

Heard lots about SB dies shortening life of brass, never observed it--I think it's one of those "theoretical" things, like not tumbling loaded rounds...I am on the sixth reload of mixed 7.62x51 and .308 brass with no problems noted. most done with SB dies.

But until I started using SB dies I had occasional FTF/FTL.  Multiple rifles and range pick up will do that.

SoM

Not had the problem with 7.62x51 yet...however with 5.56x45 the FTF has happened. Soooo, I use SB dies. Corrected that FTF. Also use a case gauge to double check sized brass before loading. Learned the hard way with 300 rds of loaded ammo that failed to load/failed to fire at a shoot. Just did not bump back the shoulder that needed few thousanths and the bolt would not close. Also a bugger to try to extract those rds too.

So an extra step now..but it saves the hassle of no ammo to shoot at a match. :-\

"however with 5.56x45 the FTF has happened. Soooo, I use SB dies. Corrected that FTF. Also use a case gauge to double check sized brass before loading."

I had the same happen but it was only a couple rounds out of several hundred .223. Got the case gauge and check them after loading since bullet seating and crimping can screw up a shoulder. I've only found a couple out of thousands of rounds that wouldn't set down flush in the case gauge, but even they chambered and fired. All with a normal die, not a SB. I am using a SB for the .308 and so far, so good. Hope to get out and shoot the 180 grainers tomorrow....O.L.

OK...A little data on 180gr Speer Hot-Cor bullets from a DPMS LR-10, 16" lite barrel, all shots hand held from a bench.

The Speer manual lists 40-44gr Varget with this bullet. CCI LR primers, 2.80" OAL. The only the brass we used differs from the book, used R-P. Shot 5 each at 40grs, 41, 42, and 43grs....41 and 42grs shot the best groups with the 41 slightly better at a little over 1" throwing out the first cold barrel shots. No high pressure indicatons. Subjectively recoil about the same as 165gr. So, I see no reason a person can't shoot 180's out of these guns.....O.L.

OK, so I finally got some compatible powder, some large rifle primers, and some 168 gr. HPBT bullets and dusted off the .308 dies.  Loaded up some freedom pills and head to the range.  Understand that I used once-fired brass from the same rifle (SIG 716 chambered in 7.62X51) but the brass was a mix of Military 7.62 and Civilian .308, mostly Federal .308.  All brass was de-primed, wet rotary polished, annealed, full length resized, vibratory polished, hand primed with CCI "Military" primers, and finally loaded with between 40.6 and 41.6 gr. of IMR4064 in .1 gr increments in groups of five.

Yesterday I headed to the range to ladder test my loads.  I started the session with some Federal Fusion 168 gr. factory ammo to confirm zero on the scope.  Five rounds later and I had re-established the zero on the scope.  KI load up the 40.6 grain hand loads, pick a target, and bang, all goes as planned but the next round doesn't feed and I have to hand-cycle the bolt.  No problem, I notice the gas piston is set to single shot.  I adjusted the piston, cycled the gun, and bang, all is well but the third round doesn't feed right? 

At that point I thought I had it under-gassed and put the suppressor on.  Cycled the bolt again, and... nothing. Not even a click.  I pushed on the bolt seat, squeezed the trigger again and this time "Click".  Then I tried to cycle the bolt and find the cartridge is jammed in the chamber!  I had to bang the butt stock on the table the jar it loose!  So starting with the bolt locked back, I put the magazine back in, closed the bolt, and... same thing. The bolt didn't seem to want go into battery and the cartridge is stuck in the chamber.  I had to use the same butt-stock on the table top method to get it out. 

Then I loaded up 5 more of the Federal Fusion rounds and try them.  Yep the gun is still fine.  All five rounds work just like they are supposed to.  And the brass is all in decent shape.  I got all the gear back to the bench and did some measuring on a factory round and then on three of the reloaded rounds.  I couldn't find anything drastically oversized on the reloaded ammo but it still won't chamber fully.

Where do I go from here?  I will scrub the chamber next to make sure it is not all gummed up for some reason, but I am pretty sure it will be good as is.  Any suggestions on next steps?  I can provide the case measurements but other than that...

Run your recently loaded rounds into a case gauge to determine if you set the shoulder back correctly in the sizing operation.
It is possible to fail to fully resize the used brass, resulting in a load that will not fully chamber.
You can also end up with brass that chambers too deep and the firing pin can not adequately reach the primer.

 :yeahthat:

Check to see if the dies are adjusted correctly. While unlikely, it COULD also be an out of spec die.  You can compare your ammo with the proper measuring devices (calipers and micrometer) with the standard.

Quote from: Dangerous Oldman on February 24, 2021, 07:02:14 PM
OK, so I finally got some compatible powder, some large rifle primers, and some 168 gr. HPBT bullets and dusted off the .308 dies.  Loaded up some freedom pills and head to the range.  Understand that I used once-fired brass from the same rifle (SIG 716 chambered in 7.62X51) but the brass was a mix of Military 7.62 and Civilian .308, mostly Federal .308.  All brass was de-primed, wet rotary polished, annealed, full length resized, vibratory polished, hand primed with CCI "Military" primers, and finally loaded with between 40.6 and 41.6 gr. of IMR4064 in .1 gr increments in groups of five.

Yesterday I headed to the range to ladder test my loads.  I started the session with some Federal Fusion 168 gr. factory ammo to confirm zero on the scope.  Five rounds later and I had re-established the zero on the scope.  KI load up the 40.6 grain hand loads, pick a target, and bang, all goes as planned but the next round doesn't feed and I have to hand-cycle the bolt.  No problem, I notice the gas piston is set to single shot.  I adjusted the piston, cycled the gun, and bang, all is well but the third round doesn't feed right? 

At that point I thought I had it under-gassed and put the suppressor on.  Cycled the bolt again, and... nothing. Not even a click.  I pushed on the bolt seat, squeezed the trigger again and this time "Click".  Then I tried to cycle the bolt and find the cartridge is jammed in the chamber!  I had to bang the butt stock on the table the jar it loose!  So starting with the bolt locked back, I put the magazine back in, closed the bolt, and... same thing. The bolt didn't seem to want go into battery and the cartridge is stuck in the chamber.  I had to use the same butt-stock on the table top method to get it out. 

Then I loaded up 5 more of the Federal Fusion rounds and try them.  Yep the gun is still fine.  All five rounds work just like they are supposed to.  And the brass is all in decent shape.  I got all the gear back to the bench and did some measuring on a factory round and then on three of the reloaded rounds.  I couldn't find anything drastically oversized on the reloaded ammo but it still won't chamber fully.

Where do I go from here?  I will scrub the chamber next to make sure it is not all gummed up for some reason, but I am pretty sure it will be good as is.  Any suggestions on next steps?  I can provide the case measurements but other than that...

You should get a Hornady or Sinclair headspace comparator.  It will allow you to perfectly measure your fired case headspace dimension so you can make sure you're properly sizing the cases.  Insufficient resizing is probably the most common cause of bolts failing to close into battery or requiring excessive effort to extract.

A bullet seated way too long and jamming into the rifling could do it and requires a different comparator to measure.

A neck that's way too long and hitting the throat could do it too and would probably be the most unsafe possibility.  They make a tool for measuring that too.

You didn't mention it and if you're not trimming cases after sizing your necks could be too long.

Just realized who this was!

If you're coming to the Half Day 'seeds at Bone Creek in a couple weeks and want to bring the rifle, cases (factory unfired, factory fired, reloaded fired and reloaded non fired) I have all the comparator tools and we can figure out where the problem is.