Put your questions and comments on reloading for the .30-06 in this thread.
Just started my reloading today! I'm in the middle of taking out the crimps in the primer pocket, and that is kinda tough with just the hand tool. I am aware they sell a mechanical tool for the job, but the school doesn't have one. But, once I have that all done and clean the mouths up with the deburring tool, I'll be able to start putting in the new primers.
So right now I'm using these components:
Hornady .30 cal (.308) 150 gr SPBT
H4895 Powder (probably going to start at 10% below the recommended dosage in SPEER's Reloading manual since I'm reloading MilSpec brass)
Federal Large Rifle Primers
Lake City 1968 Brass, once fired(by me)
I wanted to get the CCI Primers, but they were out at the store. Fortunately for me this ammo is going into my 1903, so I shouldn't have any problems. Also, I probably should have picked up some IMR 4895 instead of the H4895, but I guess I'll just try this and see how it works.
Muddogg, my father and I have used more H4895 than most people want to think about, and we will both tell you it's good stuff.
When either of us make target grade ammo for competition, that's our FIRST choice.
Looks like you might end up with some highly accurate ammo, as you're headed in the right direction.
Quote from: Muddogg on June 14, 2007, 06:43:53 PM
Just started my reloading today! I'm in the middle of taking out the crimps in the primer pocket, and that is kinda tough with just the hand tool. I am aware they sell a mechanical tool for the job, but the school doesn't have one. But, once I have that all done and clean the mouths up with the deburring tool, I'll be able to start putting in the new primers.
So right now I'm using these components:
Hornady .30 cal (.308) 150 gr SPBT
H4895 Powder (probably going to start at 10% below the recommended dosage in SPEER's Reloading manual since I'm reloading MilSpec brass)
Federal Large Rifle Primers
Lake City 1968 Brass, once fired(by me)
I wanted to get the CCI Primers, but they were out at the store. Fortunately for me this ammo is going into my 1903, so I shouldn't have any problems. Also, I probably should have picked up some IMR 4895 instead of the H4895, but I guess I'll just try this and see how it works.
Muddog,
H4895 started out as non-canister surplus IMR-4895!
The US ammo plants had enough skill that powder was not blended for them like it is for public consumption (public consumption is called canister powder because it is sold in the 4 & 8 lb. canisters and 1 lb. cans.).
Hodgdon sold TONS of surplus IMR-4895 after WW II and Korea, often selling it in a plastic bag inside a paper grocery bag. Others (local shops) would get a fiber drum of it and sell it the same way, weighing it out when you went to get it, usually with a scale like hardware stores used to use for nails.
Buckshot
Buckshot
Well I finally got all the brass primed today! Gotta tell you, using the Primer Pocket Uniformer hand tool from Lyman to get the pockets out to .210 is quite a pain, but one of my instuctors had the genius to have me put them in the Lathe with a 15/32 collet so they wouldn't slip(or deform). Worked a heck of a lot easier and I flew through 50 cases in a couple of hours.
Then, with an automatic priming tool, I put 94 primers in, because when I opened up the box there were only 95 out of a hundred! Where did the other 5 go? The box was sealed with tape, and it definately didn't look like they could slip out. Grrr...and the second to last primer deformed in the pocket so I had to take it out.
So, "now for the powder," I thought to myself. Wrong. When I asked my instructor about what grains to start off loading, we came across a small problem. I wanted the brass to perform to milspec standard and work from there. Turns out it's not the best powder for that, even though you can reload it for the .30 '06 easily and still have it work nicely. My Instructor recommended IMR 4064, and that does look like it would give the best performance. Fortunately another Instructor happend to have an unopened bottle of IMR 4064 his friend gave him that he will trade me Monday for my unopened powder(remember stores won't exchange or let you return powder, primers or ammo).
It's not that I can't use the H4895, it will probably work great, according to Hodgdon's Reloading specs(but every other manual appears to disagree). I want something that will work better, and since these guys have been reloading for a long time, I trust their word on the matter. I just wish I could have gotten it done by the end of the day so I could test it this weekend...
Also, if he forgets on Monday, I'll probably just go with the H4895. It's not so much a personal thing as it is a grade, and I'm falling behind this semester.
Well my friend, 4895 is a military spec for the 30-06. There could be
others and I suspect there are. Perhaps BL and BL2 are also used as
burn rate is very simular. I tryed everything from a cutting type tool
to settling on a hardened nipple type die that swagges rather than cuts
Much more uniform pockets. I use a RCBS, but almost all the major
manf. make one. ;D Pretty sure Nickle can tell you how much powder
the government used
Quote from: Oohrah on June 15, 2007, 10:37:51 PM
Well my friend, 4895 is a military spec for the 30-06. There could be
others and I suspect there are. Perhaps BL and BL2 are also used as
burn rate is very simular. I tryed everything from a cutting type tool
to settling on a hardened nipple type die that swagges rather than cuts
Much more uniform pockets. I use a RCBS, but almost all the major
manf. make one. ;D Pretty sure Nickle can tell you how much powder
the government used
There's one instructor who swears it was a type "C" powder they used, but I am aware that they used 4895. However, different manufacturers hae different powders, and I think IMR 4895 is supposed to be the closest to the original(the military had to buy it from somewhere, right?). H4895 is slightly slower burning than the original I'm told, and works awesome for reduced loads. Of course I'm a complete newbie on the subjuect of reloading, so feel free to correct me!
Muddog and Oohrah,
Nickle's post might tell you (I have not read it all yet) or you can get info from the NRA. I look in my "Cartridges of the World" new revised 3rd edition (old) and get that the only powders used for Ball, M2 were IMR4895, CMR-1000 and WC-852. IMR4895 and CMR-1000 are both single base tubular and CMR-1000 is supposedly Canadian. WC-852 is a double base spherical powder.
IMR4895 ONLY for Tracer, M1 and Match, M72. All three for Ball, M2 (Overhead Fire Application). IMR4895 and WC-852 ONLY for Armor Piercing M2, Tracer M25 and Tracer M25 (Steel Case).
I WILL NOT list the weights used, as these were all NON-Canister powders and the weights were actually given a final adjustment by the ammo factory loading the ammo.
Muddog,
What rifle are you loading for? If you are loading for a bolt gun IMR 4064 won't hurt much of anything. If you have an M1 Garand or have both bolt guns and an M1 Garand, then load ONLY to M2 specifications, M1s don't really like you playing with the powder much. You can bend the op rod, or even blow the gas cylinder off the barrel with the wrong powder.
My Dad and I learned that the hard way with an old re-weld Garand and loads of WW-760 under a WW 190 gr. BTHP Match bullet when we launched a gas cylinder downrange and destroyed the barrel and op rod in the process. Op rod all bent, gas cylinder lock threads torn off the barrel when the gas cylinder went down range!
It isn't a pretty sight or a good feeling. Take it from me, DON'T learn it on your own.
:(
Buckshot
Guys, I'll make this reply real simple.
Pay close attention to what Buckshot just posted, and do it. Everything he has said is right.
I will add that 4064 has been used in the M1, but there's NO WAY I would use it over 4895. And the source for H4895 for years was pulled down USGI .30-06 ammo, especially M2 Ball.
See, Hogdon got his start breaking down USGI ammo and salvaging the powder and reselling it.
Want to know what the US Military uses for loads?
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=267.0 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=267.0)
Remember what Buckshot has said. These loads were made with non-cannister powder, so the data may be off a little from what you need. Work up from a lighter load.
Well, test fired my first reloads today, and looks like I'll be going with 43 grains of H4895 in my rifle. Apparently it's close to the starting load that Hodgdon's manual says, but they use Winchester brass and I'm using the thicker Lake City brass. Pressures looked good, no flattening or bulging of the primers, recoil was good, even up to 47 grains in my rifle. But 43 was the lowest grain I tried, so I may have to load less when I get into tweaking the right load.
In a related(but without relevance to reloading) topic:
I would have stayed longer at the range and shot my .22 slower, but the rain was starting to really come down and the clouds were making the sky pretty dark. But with my last sheet of targets spent, I drew some 1" squares on the white cardboard backing that came with the pack and shot at 25 yards...horribly(5 out of 10 hits!?)!
My rifle's rear sight is broke, split right where the notch and the slot for the elevator is(I hate those cheap V-sights), and I couldn't adjust the windage, had to aim 1.5 inches right of the black square(excuses, excuses ;D). Just need to buy some nice Lyman or Williams sights(where to get $90? :(), drill and tap them and see how she shoots. Using CCI HPs too, and she did shoot better. Just need to keep that POA solid.
Sorry, just had to post that last part! Back to reloading- 44 more rounds of already primed .30 '06, just need to add 43 grains to each, inspect, and seat the bullets!
...And voila!
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/Muddogg/30-06_reload1.jpg)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/Muddogg/30-06_reload3.jpg)
My apartment has horrible lighting, sorry!
I made a statement in another post about the use of 270 Winchester, 25-06 and both 280 Remington and 7mm Express Remington for 30-06 brass. Once it is run through the 30.06 sizer die it is 30-06 brass. The link to the post is http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=387.0
Well, I've shot about half a case or more of Greek ammo through my M1's. I've started running the brass throught the resizing die and brass polisher. After polishing I was using a toothpick to punch the walnut shell particles out of the flash holes and I noticed something I hadn't see on other brass. Quite a few of the Greek brass cases had a lousy looking flash hole. When the hold was punched out during manufacture they left a raised (ridge) of brass around the hole that could interfere with the uniform and consistent ignition of the powder. I've never seen this on commercial brass or military .223 or 308 brass. Looks like I'll be playing with a bigger drill bit trying to remove these so the holes are consistent piece to piece. Lots of Greek being shot and lots being reloaded.
Quote from: M1A4ME on July 15, 2007, 10:10:10 PM
Well, I've shot about half a case or more of Greek ammo through my M1's. I've started running the brass throught the resizing die and brass polisher. After polishing I was using a toothpick to punch the walnut shell particles out of the flash holes and I noticed something I hadn't see on other brass. Quite a few of the Greek brass cases had a lousy looking flash hole. When the hold was punched out during manufacture they left a raised (ridge) of brass around the hole that could interfere with the uniform and consistent ignition of the powder. I've never seen this on commercial brass or military .223 or 308 brass. Looks like I'll be playing with a bigger drill bit trying to remove these so the holes are consistent piece to piece. Lots of Greek being shot and lots being reloaded.
Seemed pretty accurate even with the flash holes the way they are. Sounds like a great deal of work unless you were really trying to work up match loads. Maybe make a batch without doing the flash hole and see if it makes a difference in the load you work up.
Quote from: M1A4ME on July 15, 2007, 10:10:10 PM
Well, I've shot about half a case or more of Greek ammo through my M1's. I've started running the brass throught the resizing die and brass polisher. After polishing I was using a toothpick to punch the walnut shell particles out of the flash holes and I noticed something I hadn't see on other brass. Quite a few of the Greek brass cases had a lousy looking flash hole. When the hold was punched out during manufacture they left a raised (ridge) of brass around the hole that could interfere with the uniform and consistent ignition of the powder. I've never seen this on commercial brass or military .223 or 308 brass. Looks like I'll be playing with a bigger drill bit trying to remove these so the holes are consistent piece to piece. Lots of Greek being shot and lots being reloaded.
Get a flash hole uniformer and a primer pocket uniformer from Sinclair, International in New Haven, IN.
They are better and easier than messing with drill bits.
Buckshot
Quote from: Buckshot on July 16, 2007, 03:10:50 AM
Quote from: M1A4ME on July 15, 2007, 10:10:10 PM
Well, I've shot about half a case or more of Greek ammo through my M1's. I've started running the brass throught the resizing die and brass polisher. After polishing I was using a toothpick to punch the walnut shell particles out of the flash holes and I noticed something I hadn't see on other brass. Quite a few of the Greek brass cases had a lousy looking flash hole. When the hold was punched out during manufacture they left a raised (ridge) of brass around the hole that could interfere with the uniform and consistent ignition of the powder. I've never seen this on commercial brass or military .223 or 308 brass. Looks like I'll be playing with a bigger drill bit trying to remove these so the holes are consistent piece to piece. Lots of Greek being shot and lots being reloaded.
Get a flash hole uniformer and a primer pocket uniformer from Sinclair, International in New Haven, IN.
They are better and easier than messing with drill bits.
Buckshot
What he said.
Quote from: raf on July 16, 2007, 01:15:27 PM
Quote from: Buckshot on July 16, 2007, 03:10:50 AM
Quote from: M1A4ME on July 15, 2007, 10:10:10 PM
Well, I've shot about half a case or more of Greek ammo through my M1's. I've started running the brass throught the resizing die and brass polisher. After polishing I was using a toothpick to punch the walnut shell particles out of the flash holes and I noticed something I hadn't see on other brass. Quite a few of the Greek brass cases had a lousy looking flash hole. When the hold was punched out during manufacture they left a raised (ridge) of brass around the hole that could interfere with the uniform and consistent ignition of the powder. I've never seen this on commercial brass or military .223 or 308 brass. Looks like I'll be playing with a bigger drill bit trying to remove these so the holes are consistent piece to piece. Lots of Greek being shot and lots being reloaded.
Get a flash hole uniformer and a primer pocket uniformer from Sinclair, International in New Haven, IN.
They are better and easier than messing with drill bits.
Buckshot
What he said.
That's what I used on my Lake City brass, so I recommend it as well!
Sinclair is really good stuff. RW Hart carries similar stuff as well. The Bench Rest shooters buy from these companies, and if it works for them, it works for you. FWIW, Wally Hart is a shooter himself, I've known him and his father (Robert, now deceased) since the 60's. Good folks to buy from, like Sinclair.
Still working up the brass. Today I was trimming to length. I haven't trimmed any brass in over 20 years (no shooting = no reloading = no trimming or anything else to do with reloading). Today I was trimming all 30.06 brass but it was a combination of civilian (Remington, Winchester, Frontier (Hornady), Sears (?), Federal) and military (Greek of various years, some Korean, again various years and others). I've accumulated some of this from range pickups, bought some off my brother (also range pickups), some of it's mine (recent) and some of its mine (from over 20 years ago - Frontier and Remington).
I list all the above due to some things I noticed while trimming that I don't remember from the limited amount of trimming I did in the "old days". I use an old Forster case trimmer. Don't know how others operate but this on uses a collet to hold the brass rim, a pilot to center the cutter in the case mouth with a lock ring on the shaft to set/hold the lenght setting. The collet is tightened by turning a "t" handle clockwise to grab the case rim. Overall the Greek surplus brass tighted up with the "t" handle earlier than the civilian brass. To me that means the Greek brass has a slightly larger rim diameter than the civilian brass (I didn't measure it). Since I plan on using the civilian brass to load M1 food we'll see how that works out. Also, the pilot was a snug fit going into most of the civilian brass necks while the military brass necks were actually loose on the pilot. Without measuring both case neck OD and case neck ID (should have) it's tough to say why. In any case it makes me believe the neck tension on the bullets will be different between the civilian and the miltary brass. Might not be a problem as long as I segregate the brass by whether it's civilian or military. Without trimming to length I would not have noticed this difference prior to loading (not even sure if I'd have "felt" the difference while seating the bullets, but I'll definately be looking for a difference and it'll be neat to see if there's a difference in POI - of course there could be other reasons for that as well).
Lots of things to pay attention to when reloading. Lots of things to learn. Lots of things to check, recheck, check again.
PS. After cleaning, resizing depriming, polishing and trimming I still found two pieces of brass I can't use - one a split neck and the other a split down in the shoulder. I've eyeballed the brass everytime I handle it. Check, recheck, check again.
Take the crank handle off that Forster and use a cordless drill to turn it, and you'll speed up things. Easier on the right hand as well.
Quote from: Nickle on July 21, 2007, 10:43:58 PM
Take the crank handle off that Forster and use a cordless drill to turn it, and you'll speed up things. Easier on the right hand as well.
+ 100 on that one. Turn a spud to screw on instead of the crank to protect the threads.
Also, if you size before you trim it will be more uniform and you will get a better feel for what the brass is doing. Right now you don't know what kind of rifle or chamber any of the range brass was fired in.
Watch that civilian brass in the M1 Garand, it often doesn't last long, not being as thick as the GI brass. Keep an eye out for that incipient head separation ring on the cases.
Buckshot
Not sure where to post this, but figured best answers would come from those on this thread. Much like M1A4ME, most of my experience comes from the 22-250 back in the 60's & 70's using a Herter's C press, Redding beam scale....very slow operations. I would like to speed things up and load for the 308 & 30-06.
I am considering a turret such as the RCBS or a progressive, RCBS, Hornady, Dillon.
(Love those Dillon catalogs!) Also, an electronic scale would be nice, but have no idea what to look for. As in most tool purchases, you probably "get what you pay for".
Any advise is greatly appreciated, and yes, much of the product will be used for producing riflemen.
Quote from: George T on July 22, 2007, 09:36:37 AM
Not sure where to post this, but figured best answers would come from those on this thread. Much like M1A4ME, most of my experience comes from the 22-250 back in the 60's & 70's using a Herter's C press, Redding beam scale....very slow operations. I would like to speed things up and load for the 308 & 30-06.
I am considering a turret such as the RCBS or a progressive, RCBS, Hornady, Dillon.
(Love those Dillon catalogs!) Also, an electronic scale would be nice, but have no idea what to look for. As in most tool purchases, you probably "get what you pay for".
Any advise is greatly appreciated, and yes, much of the product will be used for producing riflemen.
Most, if not all of thelectronic scales available are made by the same manufacturer; the individual reloading companies just spec their proprietary color.
What you want is not only a scale, but also its matching powder trickler. This will allow you to semi-automate measuring and dispensing individually weighed loads for match loads, and individual loads for experimentation. To make this efficient, you must obtain two dispensing pans from Lyman. These little contraptions accept the weighed powder, and have a built-in funnel for filling the cartridge with the powder. Weigh them both, and remove material from the heaviest so they are exactly the same weight. You place one on the scale, and zero the scale. Enter the desired weight of powder and then hit the dispense button. Takes about 5 seconds for .30-'06 to weigh out and settle down. Remove the powder filled pan, replace with its empty twin, and hit dispense button. While second is filling, you have time to fill a case and get ready for the next one.
I use an RCBS power case trimmer that trims-to-length the sized case as well as simulteneously chamfering the inside and outside of case neck. Takes about 5 seconds per case.
Once the case is trimmed to length, the primer hole de-burring too can be used. The stop collar on the tool depends on a uniform case length to achieve a uniform de-burring of the inside of the flash hole. I generally give the outside (primer side) of the flash hole a slight chamfer as well, after the primer pocket is uniformed. By the time I am done, most of my cases would pass for match-prepped cases. It is a little more work, but the results are worth it.
As you know, most of these steps need be done only on the very first reloading. One thing I am experimenting with is the RCBS "X"-die. This die is claimed to limit shell growth to a max of .002" over initial trimmed length, which is well under the maximum length allowable. Allegedly, the case will grow .002" and no more no matter how many times it is sized with the "X"-die. We'll see; so far it is working out well for me. If the "X"-die proves all that the Mfr claimes, it might be a godsend in terms of time and effort saved in case prep.
I own 2 Dillon presses, and an RCBS Rock Chucker press. Both companies offer first-rate equipment, service and warranty.
To uniform the primer pocket, I chuck up the uniformer in a drill press and push the primer pocket up into the spinning uniformer bit. Takes about 2 seconds per. Get at least two of each uniformer needed, as after the first becomes dull and is sent off for warranty replacement, you can be using the second.
I have never used a turret press. I have heard some say that the turret evetually becomes loose because the ram of the press pushes against it, and the turret, unlike the shell holder plate of a progressive press, has nothing to reinforce it.
Let me know if I can be of any further help.
raf, thanks for the info. I had not thought of the powder trickler and the RCBS
X die sounds good. A progressive is probably the best long term investment. That power case trimmer would be a great time saver as you suggest. Looks like I need to do a little more research and save a few more dollars before purchasing.
Hello, When muddog started this topic I noticed that everyone went straight for the powder(yes,very important). However, nobody mention his choice of primers. The use of commercial primers in semi-auto military rifles can be touchy. If they are seated to deep, misfire. Too shallow, slamfire. The amount of seating to make it go full auto is less than .001. This is the voice of experience speaking. If it helps go to hitechammo.com. They have the CCI mil-spec primers at 95.00 for 5000. Also Dillion has a sweger for the primer pockets on military brass. Thank you
Quote from: smle on July 29, 2007, 10:20:17 PM
Hello, When muddog started this topic I noticed that everyone went straight for the powder(yes,very important). However, nobody mention his choice of primers. The use of commercial primers in semi-auto military rifles can be touchy. If they are seated to deep, misfire. Too shallow, slamfire. The amount of seating to make it go full auto is less than .001. This is the voice of experience speaking. If it helps go to hitechammo.com. They have the CCI mil-spec primers at 95.00 for 5000. Also Dillion has a sweger for the primer pockets on military brass. Thank you
Actually that was discussed prior to our move here, but it is still vital information.
I recommend using only CCI or Winchester primers. Both are resistant to slam-fires, and are well suited for military semi-autos.
Not having local access to a range I just jumped in and loaded several boxes of 30.06 ammo the other day. HXP brass, the CCI military primer, IMR 4895 (48 grns) was well below the books max load (it was the minimum as a matter of fact) and some 147 grn. FMJBTs.
Now for the question. I started to seat them to the same OAL as the HXP ammo and then realized that only a short (very short to my way of looking at) amount of the base of the bullet would be in the case mouth, and the canellure was well above the mouth of the case. In order to give the case mouth more of a grip on the bullet I went ahead and seated it to the canellure (no crimp though). This made for a short, funny looking 30.06 shell but did not result in a compressed powder load.
Anybody else offer some experience if they've used 147 FMJBT's in a 30.06 - did you seat to the canellure or just to the same OAL at the M2 ball ammo?
Thanks.
Never done this, but it seems to me that your bullets, when fired will have to make a longer than normal "jump" to reach the rifling. You may see a loss of accuracy to some degree or another. May also give hot gas a chance to initially rush past the projectile and cause erosion. This is just theory based on chambering rifles. In practice, I really do not know if it will make any difference. It is a practice load anyway, right?
If it was me, I'd load them to the same length as M2 ball and use a Lee Factory Crimp.
When using M80 Ball bullets in the .30-06, seat them to the cannelure and crimp them.
Those 147 FMJBT's are the same as the M80 Ball. And, yes it works out pretty well.
M1A4ME, Military brass is (almost always) thicker than commercial, but the reason HXP is 'looser' on the spud/spindle is its rigidity, less 'spring'. Think of it as 'better memory'. Comm brass is annealed softer, so it is more malleable and tends to 'stay where it's put', while mil brass is hard so it will leave the chamber easier. Hope this makes sense. dave
Quote from: M1A4ME on May 04, 2008, 04:32:33 PM
Not having local access to a range I just jumped in and loaded several boxes of 30.06 ammo the other day. HXP brass, the CCI military primer, IMR 4895 (48 grns) was well below the books max load (it was the minimum as a matter of fact) and some 147 grn. FMJBTs.
...
Anybody else offer some experience if they've used 147 FMJBT's in a 30.06 - did you seat to the canellure or just to the same OAL at the M2 ball ammo?
Thanks.
Have sent ≈ 500 rds of 147 FMJ plus same powder harvested from CAVIM 7.62 cartridges (¡gracias, Hugo!) downrange using an M1 Garand, case mouths crimped into cannelure, with:
-no problems cycling, loading, extracting, feeding,
-no observable ill effect/wear upon rifle mechanism,
-no signs of excessive pressure in casing or primer.
so when useing the 147 fmj where you still able to use the rear sights the same as when useing m-2 ball ammo ,,as in for 400 yards set it at 400 yards , 500 set at 500 etc,,,
Wade
Wade, there is no way to tell. Yes it's a 150 grain bullet (+-) but BUT the distance from crimp to throat is different, the lead core is different, the jacket hardness is different. M2 is flat base, M80/M59 is boat tail, although this should make no difference inside 300 yards. As a wise man once said, "YMMV". Why don't you do a field experiment and report back? Get 100 rounds of one lot number, keep ten rounds for control, and replace the rest with M80, 155 JHP, 150 JSP etc. EHHHHHH?
Quote from: Wade on July 23, 2008, 02:06:18 AM
so when useing the 147 fmj where you still able to use the rear sights the same as when useing m-2 ball ammo ,,as in for 400 yards set it at 400 yards , 500 set at 500 etc,,,
Wade
Shot that on paper at known distances from 200 to 600 yd. The rear sight drum, if adjusted properly for M2 ball, will also be fine for M80 pull-down. The elevation drum graduations will be right on, or very close. If you're going to do a lot of this, record the sight settings in a data book.
You will see more variation from rifle to rifle, than you will from M2 to M80.
A post from last year by Raf mentioned useing the RCBS X die. I tried that in .223 and had problems the X die forced the neck back flexing the shoulder. My brass split at the bottem of the neck. Again I cut off excess brass. And thank you big daddy Dewalt.
Just ran across this while looking for something else.
Quote
What rifle are you loading for? If you are loading for a bolt gun IMR 4064 won't hurt much of anything. If you have an M1 Garand or have both bolt guns and an M1 Garand, then load ONLY to M2 specifications, M1s don't really like you playing with the powder much. You can bend the op rod, or even blow the gas cylinder off the barrel with the wrong powder.
I have a question. If you have a bolt gun and an M1 and load only to M2 specs, how will that affect your bolt-gun? I assume it won't be quite as accurate as it could be otherwise, but wouldn't your (say, Tikka T3) still shoot tighter groups than your M1?
Also, if you have some civilian brass (Federal, Remington, whatever) vs. milsurp brass, would you still want to use the same primers that you're using for your M1?
What is safe pressure wise in the M1 should be safe pressure wise in your bolt action. Max on the M1 was 50,000 psi. It might be just fine accuracy wise in your bolt action rifle. You won't know till you try.
I shot a hundred rounds or so of my reloads last weekend (Remington brass) through my M1. It was loaded with "pulled" fmj bullets, IMR 4895 and CCI#34 primers (the ones recommended for use in M1 and M1A type semi autos). No issues with the ammo at all. Good groups, fed fine, shot fine, ejected fine. It wasn't the shiniest stuff in the world so I had a littel trouble finding it in the grass in front of the firing line.
It even fed fine out of the Greek surplus clips I was using and it seems I've read somewhere in the past that the rim on the HXP brass was made different and other brass wouldn't work in the Greek clips, etc., etc. Haven't tried LC, Win, or Fed brass so far, just the Remington and it worked fine. Oh yeah, a lot of my civilian brass was 25-06, 270 Win. and 280 Rem. brass run through the 30-06 sizer and trimmed to length and all of it worked fine.
I'll be resizing that brass (hopefully in the next couple of weeks) and reloading it again. However, I've got some new powder and that brass will probably end on 5 round stripper clips for my US Enfield.
Yeah, you'll still wanna use the cci#34s but good luck finding any. :'(
Nickle,
I'm looking for a reduced load for 30-06 using 150gr jacketed bullets in the 2400fps range. Want to make it more pleasant to practice using a light 8 lb. hunting rifle.
Can you suggest any powders that might help me achieve this?
Thanks in advance,
Supersniper
4895 should do the trick.
If it were only available around here. Most all the popular powders have been sucked up.
How about IMR4831 or AA3100? Would they offer good loading density with the lower velocities?
I do have some IMR3031 and 2400 available.
Thanks again!
Of those 4831 and 3031 would be my choices. AA3100 should work as well.
2400 is pistol/shotgun powder, too fast for what you're trying to do.
Surprisingly I have seen references to 2400 being used in the .30-06 from the 20's + 30's. It is not in any of the reloading manuals today but can be found on internet searches. All in all, I am still not a fan of experimenting when it comes to reloading.
Quote from: DuaneRN on March 26, 2009, 03:04:29 PM
Surprisingly I have seen references to 2400 being used in the .30-06 from the 20's + 30's. It is not in any of the reloading manuals today but can be found on internet searches. All in all, I am still not a fan of experimenting when it comes to reloading.
Commonly known, and usually for cast bullet loads only.
Not enough powder volume, in my opinion, too easy to make a bad mistake (like a double charge).
Nickle,
Great results with IMR-3031! :)
Got (2) 3-shot groups of .4 inches at 100 meters and velocities of 2300 and 2400 fps with 150gr bullets. Recoil is reduced 30% or so now. Extreme spreads were in teh 40 - 50 fps range. Very comfortable to shoot now.
I think the little lady will be very pleased with her purchase of the new
Browning X-Bolt in 30-06.
Thanks again!
Supersniper
After several weeks of searching, I finaly ran across some large rifle primers today. They were CCI benchrest, not what I was really looking for, but since they were the only thing I've found, I picked them up. I also managed to find some H4895. The salesman at the store told me the benchrest primers were the same hardness as the regulars, just stricter tolerance. I've heard behind the counter folks come up with enough wierd stuff though that I thought I'd ask some of those here their thoughts on benchrest primers. I'll be reloading for my Garand. 90% of my brass is HXP & I've also got a couple hundred rounds of commercial Federal brass around.
Rifle reloading is new to me. All my previous experience has been with 45 colt & making gobs of blackpowder blanks for CMSA (ballon popping) practice.
Thanks for the help
Guy
I have not used CCI benchrest primers.
I spent several years reloading for my M1A with Federal Benchrest primers and never knew that was supposed to be a "bad" thing. No issues in 8 years.
Keep the primer seating correct (clean the pockets, seat the primers till the bottom "up" in the pocket) - no protrusion below the rim and best if slightly "up" into the case/pocket.
Keep your rifle clean - chamber, bolt face and firing pin and firing pin channel inside the bolt.
Make sure your cases are properly resized so they fit easily into the chamber.
Remember the safety rules - muzzle in a safe direction, finger off the trigger till your sights on on the target (yeah, I know, not the four safety rules but surely you're going to work up a good load, take a few trips to a range and make sure they work - before you go to an Appleseed - right.)
CCI benchrest primers are the same hardness as their standard primers, but the amount of priming compound is disbursed using higher quality control standards thereby theoretically ensuring more consistent ignition.
WCM1,
Thanks, that confirms what the salesman told me.
OD,
Roger on the safety rules. I can shoot at the house, so when I get going I'll load 5-10 rds & check them out starting at the manual's starting load. I'm not looking to load benchrest stuff, just something that shoots to the same (or near) my surplus amm POI. I'm starting with Lee dies & will full length resize. If I have feeding problems I'll find some small base dies.
Thanks again,
Guy
Quote from: CaptG on April 14, 2009, 11:46:58 PM
If I have feeding problems I'll find some small base dies.
Get a case gauge and check them all before you attempt to chamber them in your rifle.
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/25547/catid/3/Dillon_Rifle_Case_Gages
I know it's one more step, but it will give you peace of mind knowing that your loads are within spec.
Quote from: Old Dog on April 14, 2009, 07:16:25 PM
I have not used CCI benchrest primers.
I spent several years reloading for my M1A with Federal Benchrest primers and never knew that was supposed to be a "bad" thing. No issues in 8 years.
Keep the primer seating correct (clean the pockets, seat the primers till the bottom "up" in the pocket) - no protrusion below the rim and best if slightly "up" into the case/pocket.
I have, a LONG time ago. We switched to Federal Match primers.
Match/Benchrest primers work OK. They are, as was said, just produced to tighter tolerances.
Federal primers have been said to have a trendency to "slam fire". Of course, if you do what Old Dog mentioned (and I quoted above), you almost certainly won't get slam fires, in MOST rifles. (Disclaimer that some rifles are more prone to slam firing than others, it's ALL in the design.)
His comments are THE way to load quality, safe, accurate ammo. Clean the primer pocket, and make sure the primers are properly seated.
Well, today I reloaded my first rifle rounds.
Prepped 40 rds of HXP brass, Lyman reamer to remove crimp (before I start on larger quantities I'll upgrade). Lyman flash hole uniform tool. Full length resize w/ Lee dies. Trimmed to 2.494 with Lyman case trimmer. Lee chamfer tool for necks. Tumbled for clean up and to remove lube. Primed with CCI benchrest primers.
Loaded 8 of the prepped cases with 46 gr H 4895 (the Lee Manual starting load) & 147 gr Win FMJ's. I didn't crimp, I have a Lee factory crimp die on back order.
It took a long time, but since I'm new at this, I'm triple checking everything as I go and keeping a log of each step. All rounds were checked with caliper for LOA and with headspace guage for headspace. I'm also waiting on a case guage for further QC down the road. I'm not looking for benchrest accuracy, just trying to match surplus ammo POI as closely as I can.
I'll fire these 8 tommorrow & see if they're close to HXP POI. If results are ok I'll finish reloading the rest of these cases.
If anyone notes something that I've missed, let me know before I blow myself up. Otherwise, I'll report back tomorrow.
Guy
Sprinkle a little holy water on them and you're good to go.
Let us know how it goes.
(I'm suffering from reloading depression of not being able to find any primers :-\ )
RCBS makes a primer pocket swagger that I've had good luck with. A lot easier than the reamer. ;)
I have read this thread and held off posting. But your post gives me a good opportunity.
I never full length resize if I am using the ammo in the rifle it was shot from. To do so stretches your brass more than necessary. I set my sizing die 1/8" above the shell holder. In doing this you do not set the shoulder back. Your cases are 'fire formed' to your chamber, why change them? When you set the shoulder back, the case will stretch to fill the chamber the next time you fire it. Do this enough times and the case will separate just in front of the cartridge web.
Case gauges are redundant. The dies you use are made to the correct size for the cartridge, why would you need to check the dies? USGI ammo had a tolerance of 0.006" of an inch between min and max. Your dies are held closer then that.
With a starting load of 46g IMR 4895, I doubt your POI will equal HXPs.
If you want to spend money, get a Chronograph and clock your rounds. Other than dies and a press it's the best money you will spend.
Service '06 was loaded to 2750 fps. Using IMR 4895 work up your rounds until they clock 2750 fps for a 150 g bullet and your good to go.
Fired the 8 rds. All functioned fine. POI is about 2" below the HXP at 25M. 6 rds grouped about 2", the others opened it up, but I'm sure it's me. Still getting used to this rifle and its trigger.
Most feedback I've had seems to put favorite loads as 48 gr of 4895. I think I'll load up another 8 and go up 1 gr on the charge.
Thanks to all who have helped me with this.
Guy
Don't know how much reloading experience you have.....
The first thing I look at when I pick up my fired cases is the primer.
Look at the primers before you fire the rounds. Notice the radius around the edge of the primer where it meets the primer pocket? One indication of pressure is how much that radius reduces (higher pressure = reduced radius). Really high pressures will make that primer flatten right out on the edges. Another indication of pressure that is too high is the primer trying to "blow" back into the firing pin hole in the bolt. It's called a "cratered" primer. The firing pin indention is there but the primer wall material is raised up around the indention. Sometimes this can be aggravated by a firing pin hole that is worn larger over time, but if this is the cause the radius around the primer edge won't be flattened like it does from pressure.
Some folks suggest measuring the fired cases for expansion vs. a known standard pressure round but I've never done that - I just look at the primers. The way I reload (accuracy over velocity) I've rarely seen flattened primers in my stuff, but I've seen it in some rifles even with factory loads when the rifle's not right (headspace issues).
Hi folks
I've been reading this thread top to bottom, it's pretty nice having the knowledge base that you guys have and are willing to share with people that are new to reloading. Now for my questions... If I'm understanding the previous posts correctly,
CCI #34, or Winchester would be my preferred primers for a Garand. I read the guys post about CCI benchrest primers, and another reply that said they were the same as standard CCI's with better QC. Does that mean CCI 200 will work as well? I've found so far that Federal 210 seem to work best with the two bolt actions I'm loading for now but I've not loaded for a semi auto yet.
I think it was Old Dog that talked about launching his gas tube down range, so I don't think I'll be doing to much experimenting with powders. But what about bullet weight? Will a 135 grain jacketed boattail work?
Thanks
Andy
Can you find an M1 specific load for that 135 grain boattail?
Negative, as far as my literature goes (which is pretty limited, Lyman's 49th and Lee.) I haven't looked online anywhere yet but if I did, with my experience level, I probably wouldn't look much farther than Hodgon's Data.
Please start out by loading exactly by the book, and only with loads that are specifically designed for the M1 Garand.
I'll post a PDF document for you this evening.
May I bust a MYTH? There is no such thing as a HARD primer. Every one of them is drawn from dead soft annealed brass. Does not matter who makes them.
The difference between CCI #34 and standard primers is the sensitivity to firing pin impact. This is done by the priming compound and the placement of the anvil in the cup.
They are also magnum grade, as were all USGI primers used to load '06. The service wanted to make sure they would go off in cold weather. Also, ball powder is harder to touch off then extruded powder.
The only worry with loads for the Garand is the use the correct powder. The standard is IMR 4895. H-4895 and H-380 were also used. The Achilles heel of the Garand is the op rod. Use a slow burning powder and your gas port pressure will be too high. You may damage your op rod.
Use IMR 4895 and keep your loads to 2750 for a 150 g bullet and you will be fine.
The Garand was designed using 173g boat tail bullets at 2640 fps; M1 ball ammo. M2 with a 150 g bullet came after it was developed. John Garand worried that the reduced power of the M2 ball load would not provide enough power to reliably operate the rifle.
Hatcher reported at the end of WW2, not one M1 ever blew up. JCG tried to blow one up. He had to take the estimated pressure up to 125,000 CUP before he succeed. The M1 was the strongest US service rifle ever built.
As to a load for a 135g bullet for the Garand, none of my manuals list one. There was never a USGI load for a 135 g bullet.
Reload data specific for the M1 Garand is attached:
eaglescouter,
Thanks for the advice and info. That is why I posted my questions here, I was pretty confident I would get some good data from people who actually have an interest in seeing others succeed.
Another question; A previous post mentioned neck sizing. While I neck size cases for bolt action, everything I've read about semi auto's says to FL size every time.
Does this go along with the hard primer myth from above? (Thanks Douglass).
By the way, have I mentioned what Appleseed means to me? To be able to talk with and learn from people that have very similar ideals to mine, as well as the emphasis on the American revolution and it's history. Until recently I had no idea that there were this many people out there that thought this way.
Thanks Appleseeders!
Andy
For a gas operated gun like the M1:
Full length resize every time
Trim cases to length every time
Do not deviate from the short list of suitable powders and loads without a very well understood reason.
Use Magnum primers (the free floating firing pin in the M1 is the reason for selection of the magnum primer to prevent slam fires and/or pierced primers)
I have used partial sizing (neck sizing) over 25 years, feeding two Garands. I have never had a problem with feeding from either gun.
For range pick ups, yes, I will FL size these; but only for the first reload. After the cartridges are shot in my rifle the brass is fire formed to my chamber and there is no need for FL sizing.
This is like the advise that you 'have' to use SMALL BASE dies for gas guns. I have never found the need for them shooting a Garand.
I would try it both ways, FL and Partial; see for yourself. It may surprise you. O0
Every gun is slightly different than the next.
What works for yours might not work for mine.
By the way, my M1A has a NM barrel (since new) and I've always "partially" resized my reloads for it.
And then you hear about those guys that need small base dies to get their reloads to chamber.
Every gun is slightly different than the next.
The advice to try different things is good. It can work to your advantage in reloading as well as shooting.
Probably even when it comes to talking folks into going to Appleseeds. What works for one person doesn't work for the next.
Quote from: artkat2 on May 02, 2009, 01:00:55 AM
By the way, have I mentioned what Appleseed means to me? To be able to talk with and learn from people that have very similar ideals to mine, as well as the emphasis on the American revolution and it's history. Until recently I had no idea that there were this many people out there that thought this way.
Thanks Appleseeders!
Andy
Hey Andy,
Just wait until you instruct at your first Appleseed. You have no idea!
So dry-fire every day. Persist. Shoot the score, then accept step up. You will increase your appreciation of Appleseed by 10 times. Andy, having met you at the SLO Appleseed, and knowing your appreciation of history, I know that you would be an excellent instructor.
James E
I have to say it again,
The advice that you guys give, from all of your experience is beyond measure. While I will stick with eaglescouter's advice for now (FL resize, trim and follow the letter) when my experience level and competence grows this advice will find a place at my bench. Thanks again all.
James E,
I'll just keep applying the knowledge gained last time, and if next time your instruction bears fruit (actually it has, but the shooter still has to do his part!) I will be glad to join the ranks of the most devoted folks I've ever met.
Btw, I got a hold of a copy of Paul Revere's Ride from the library, Outstanding!
Andy
A case gage should be used when possible. It will pick up many things that you may not see on casual inspection such as case neck bulges, dings in the rim and bulging from an overpressured case. It may well save you the headache of a jam right in the middle of a rapid fire string. You also get to inspect the primer as well.
Remember that there are no alibis in the "real world". It has to work, all the time... every time. :~
Why take a chance on your ammo if you have the opportunity to make it good the first time? It a worthwhile investment.
I have to agree with the case gage idea, and know that I have gages for every caliber I reload for mys own use.
Sure saves grief later, and it has helped me educate a good friend in the fine matters of reloading. He cranked out about 600 rounds of .30-06 Monday and Tuesday, about 250 for him, and 350 for me.
Much of that was cast bullet loads, 195 grain cast over 13 grains of 700X. Nice mild cheap load for short distance practice in my Springfields and Enfield.
I've finally gotten going on reloading for my Garand. I wasn't really set up for it as all of my 30-06 loading up to this point has been for two bolt sporting rifles, and a Springfield 03A3 and a 1917 Enfield. However, I'm finally getting things together. So far I've prepped a few cases, and waiting on my new powder Measure. I wanted a good solid measure as my RCBS varies as much as a grain between dumps. First off, I resized all my cases and cleaned the primer pockets with the little RCBS tool made for that purpose to get the really hard carbon off, and after that I deburred all the flash holes (I do this with all my cases because when you don't and you put them in the corn cobb media it tends to get stuck in the flash holes. After that I cut the crimps out of the primer pockets on the mil surp brass with my RCBS cutting tool. Then I dumped them into my case polisher with corn cobb media for about 4 hours. I don't care if they come out real shiney as long as they come out thoroughly clean. After that, I length trimmed them with my Forester Case Trimmer to a book length of 2.494 and then outside turned the necks with my Forster tool (Only slightly where it barely cleaned the smallest one up, because I used 3 different kinds of brass and wanted the neck thickness consistent. Then I deburred the necks inside and out, again with a little RCBS tool made for the purpose. I wished I'd had all Lake City brass, but beggars can't be choosers and I had a mixture of LC, Greek, and Winchester brass. Now, when my Culver powder measure gets here, I'll prime up all with my Lee Auto Prime Tool with the Winchester Large Rifle Primers I have, dump about 48.5 Grains of IMR 4895 ( feel this is pretty conservative, but hot enough that the Garand action should function well enough) in each and seat a Hornaday 150 grain FMJ Spire Point bullet in each. This should be some fairly accurate ammunition. I know the Mil Spec cases will have a hair smaller volume than the Winchester brass, thus slightly higher Chamber pressure than the Winchester brass, but I don't think it will make a lot of difference. Besides, I'll segregate them in clips accordingly and try not to mix them during a COF. Like I said, with the powder from the same lot, and same primers and bullets, I don't think it will make a hill of beans difference in POI. Anyway, though I'm still fairly new to Appleseed, I am a long time accomplished reloader, having been doing it for about 30 years, and I thought I'd share what I do with everyone. Please feel free to comment on my methods and fill in with your own ideas. I said I'd been loading for 30 years, but I don't claim to know it all yet.
Sounds like you're all set.
About that RCBS measure. Put a baffle in it.
I've been using a Uni-Flow for quite a while, and my current one has a Seeley Masker conversion in it. All that did was take the small drum and switch it to a micrometer adjustment, so it could be reset. I've shot some mighty small groups with ammo made with it, back in my Bench Rest competition days. I usually use a baffle in it as well, that keeps a constant weight of powder on the drum and aids consistency. The other measure I use is a Lyman 55.
Oops! Too Late! I already ordered a Harrell Culver 90. Besides I been wanting one for awhile. Besides, it's only money, :'( :'( :'( (Almost $200 I could use on powder right now).
Oh, the Culver measures are nice, and trust me, you won't regret it.
I bought an RCBS uniflow about a year back. Man oh man I'm I tickled over how it works.
I've got to force myself to check every 10th or 15th round for powder charge. IMR4895, H4895, Varget, IMR4198, Unique and AA#5 are about like weighed charges.
I bought an RCBS Lil Dandy pistol powder measure and have stopped using it with Unique powder due to irregular low charge weights (as much as 2 grains off - its so easy to ID the low weight charges I just look in the cases with a flashlight and the volume difference is readily apparent) but the Uniflow works form the light (relatively) 38 Special and 45 ACP loads up to the 30.06 loads with the IMR powders.
My next (small) batch of 30.06 reloads will be for my US Enfield or 03A4. I'm going to try some IMR4831 (compressed charge) because the bolt actions don't mind slow burning powder.
Old Dog, thanks for jogging my memory.
I stated that I was using the Uniflow for BenchRest competition, and that is true.
What I didn't mention that I was using H4895, which isn't known for good metering, and the measure did well with it. Even better with Ball powder (like WW 748 or WC 844 or 846).
Quote from: douglas34474 on May 01, 2009, 11:44:59 PM
May I bust a MYTH? There is no such thing as a HARD primer. Every one of them is drawn from dead soft annealed brass. Does not matter who makes them.
The difference between CCI #34 and standard primers is the sensitivity to firing pin impact. This is done by the priming compound and the placement of the anvil in the cup.
You sure of this?
I was at the range a couple of weeks ago and one of the members was working through some loads - I don't recall what he was shooting - I think 30-30.
He showed me 3 fired cases he had shot and asked "If I never noticed some primers are harder than others?".
Each of the three cases had been loaded with a different primer. Two were very similary in terms of the impact depth of the firing pin in the primer. However, the third case was maybe half as deep.
It got me curious so I asked him some questions. One was Winchester, one was CCI, and the third was a batch of CCI he had just picked up. It turns out he had picked up the military ones at a gun show - the only ones he could find.
His rifle - I didn't really take note of - it but it wasn't military. What's more - he said he had to fire the cartridge twice to get it to light up.
Of course, if I'd had a brain on at the time I should have offered to buy his lot - I've been searching high and low...
So some of you guys are relying entirely on your powder measure for accurate charges? (I understand you're checking every 10th or so throw). I'm still weighing every charge to approx one tenth of a grain. Maybe it's my measure, but I can't get a string of more than 3 throws to weigh the same. The difference in most cases is up to half a grain.
Not that I mind weighing every charge, I'm having a good time working up loads and running them down range. For now I'm very seldom building more than 50 rounds at a time, but when my brass stores are sufficient, it would be nice to rely on my powder measure to throw a consistent charge through a hundred or two rounds.
Andy
artkat2,
Unless you are way over the levels that 30-06 should be loaded to for the M1, that .5 grain is nearly meaningless.
Military 06 loaded with 150s and non cannister 4895 vary by that and more.
Use a baffle, keep an even head of powder in teh hopper, lock down the adjusting screw real well and load to your hearts content. Check every 50 rounds or so to make sure nothing moved.
Sam
Sam D
Sorry, untill I read your reply about 30-06, I kinda forgot where I was. I'm not loading 06 yet as my CMP rifle is not due for a couple of months yet, I just like keeping tabs on this thread for future use. I just kinda got hung up on weighing so infrequently. I'm sure a lot of these folks have been loading long enough to rely on their equipment and know when they need to check things but myself being so new to in, I'm going to use every quality/safety check available to me. And like I mentioned above, I'm enjoying my bench time almost as much as my range time. I dont know who said it, but I read it on this site somewhere, He said something like "I like knowing what goes into my rifle as much as I like seeing what goes out of it". Ahh that wasn't it at all, but that's what I thought he meant.
Thanks
Andy
.
The military used (and still does) magnum grade primers. They have to make sure they work in any temperature the service may engage in. Magnum primers give better, more reliable ignition of the powder.
The NRA did a write up several years ago about primers. In it the stated that all primers use the same dead soft annealed brass to draw the primer cups. If the brass was hardened it would break when the cup was drawn.
The CCI mil spec primers are less sensitive to firing pin impact. This helps, but does not eliminate, the chance of a slam fire. The M1 has a floating firing pin which WILL hit the primer what the cartridge is loaded. Even with thr mil spec primers you need to make sure the primers are seated to the proper depth; below the case head. You should be able to run your finger over the back of the cartridge and feel the primer setting lower than the back of the case head.
If the gent at the range had a 30-30, he may have had a head space problem. '06 and 30-30 head space different. '06 is rimless and head spaces on the shoulder of the cartridge. 30-30 is a rimed case and head spaces on the rim. Also, if he did not seat the primers properly that could be part of his problem.
As to the powder measure, you have to use a baffle as SamD noted. I also bump the charger handle twice against the stop on the fill operation. This helps settle the powder in the measuring chamber resulting in more consistent charges. Using this method and a baffle I get charge weights with only 0.1 grains difference.
HTH
Douglas
Douglas,
I like that Idea about "bumping" on the fill stroke. I'm gonna give that a shot.
Still going to weigh every charge since I enjoy my time at the bench but thanks for the advice.
Andy
Sometimes we forget the why of what we are doing.
At one time I was dedicated vermin exterminator, a lot like benchrest.
Every round reloaded was "perfect"in every way I could make them for that purpose.
Now days I reload only for economy and my ammunition is much more generic, pretty much just duplicate "ball" ammo. The concept of using a sub MOA rifle is not something I think about when I'm over here. Sometimes forget that that other folks have different purposes.
If you really want to get into some "serious" reloading I recommend http://www. reloadbench.com. I have a lot of
friends over there and a couple are even Appleseeders ;)
Sam
This from the American Riflemen, July 2003, by Charles E. Petty in an article called "Primers and Mythology."
"One of the most persistent myths in shooting is that there are hard primers and soft primers. That isn't true. The real issue is primer sensitivity or more frequently something within the gun or loading process that causes the gun to go click when it shoulda' gone bang.
"All four of the major ammunition companies make primers and they all do it pretty much the same way. Thin brass and steel in huge rolls is bought from a mill. From it, primer cups and anvils, respectively, are stamped by simple presses. Everybody does it this way. A soapy lubricant is used in the stamping operations, both cup and anvil are then washed, dried and sent off to become primers. Some primer cups receive a thin nickel plating.
"While there may be some small differences in specifications for the raw brass from one maker to the other, none of it is hardened; it couldn't be stamped right if it was. It is common knowledge that brass work-hardens with bending, but the only place that could happen to a significant degree would be along the radius where it rounds out from bottom to sides. There is no need to worry much about hardness in that area since it isn't where the firing pin strikes. There have been instances where that area became so hard as to be brittle, and there could be a tiny perforation when the primer was fired. Some manufacturers include an annealing step to prevent that possibility."
"But since there is no "work" done to the bottom of the cup, it is much less affected and remains essentially as it came from the mill. Still, everyone who reloads has probably experienced a misfire, and found that the firing pin impression on the primer was much smaller than normal. It is perfectly reasonable to think that individual primer was hard, but the trouble can almost always be traced to other causes. Very often, that primer will fire if it is hit again."
I guess some Myths never die. ;)
Douglas
Anyone have a load that approximates 30-06 mil-spec velocities for a Garand using VARGET and 145 grain Boattail FMJs? I've got thousands of 145 Boattails and about 24 lbs of VARGET so I'd like to load that combination. Brass is commercial. Primers are CCI#34...I've got more of them than anything else. Reason I want mil-spec velocities is I want the sights to track the trajectory fairly well.
I was thinking about somewhere around 46 grains of VARGET...near max for the Hornady manual but the Hornady manual is always conservative in my estimation...compared to Hodgdon's, Lyman, & Sierra.
I don't have a Schuster Plug on my Garand...it's a 3.8 Million Springfield. Is Varget safe to use for this rifle or is it getting to slow? I know the 4895 series powder is considered ideal for a Garand...but I've got too much Varget to use anything else.
Thanks,
-David
Edgewood, NM
My Sierra 5th manual gives 49.2 grains of Varget behind a 150 grain bullet giving 2800 fps. This load will match the USGI loading and Varget it listed with a burn rate similar to IMR 4895. It should give you no problems in an M1.
As always, never trust load data you get off the web. ;) Get yourself some good manuals
Quote from: douglas34474 on September 13, 2010, 10:37:19 PM
My Sierra 5th manual gives 49.2 grains of Varget behind a 150 grain bullet giving 2800 fps. This load will match the USGI loading and Varget it listed with a burn rate similar to IMR 4895. It should give you no problems in an M1.
As always, never trust load data you get off the web. ;) Get yourself some good manuals
Yep. I've got a number of good manuals...about 5 of them. But only the Hornady manual offers a Garand-specific load if I recall.
Varget is closer to IMR-4064 I thought...all are medium burning powders...just wanna make sure they won't spike the port pressure.
So 2800 FPS is milspec for 150gr Ball out of a Garand?
-David
Edgewood, NM
Most times i load H-380 for 150 grain bullets.
Yes, 2800 FPS for a 150 grain bullet is mil spec.
Well I *finally* got a chance to rework my loads for my Garand since switching bullet weights and powder. I couldn't get IMR 4895 for too long, and so when the H4895 came in, I jumped on it - and turns out my Garand *really* likes that powder. 168GR Sierra Match Kings, HXP brass, and 45.5 grains of H4895 gave me an approx 1.5 MOA 5 round group with 3 rounds very nearly touching at 100 yards.
Velocities were pretty moderate, average was 2597.4, spread of 36 FPS, and SD of 16.95.
I think this will be my long range load for the Garand.
I've been waiting for a supply of H4895 myself, I plan to get started using the recipe you just listed. From what I've read, the main difference between IMR and Hodgon 4895 is that the Hogdon's does a better job of staying consistent when it gets cold, which certainly applies right now :)
Where did you find H4895, and is there any chance that they still have some?
I picked up a couple of pounds the last time Sportsman's Warehouse had it in stock. They are currently out, but I plan on swinging by on Wednesday night (they get their shipments on Wed) to see if they have any more.
So, I finally got my hands on some powder, primers, and bullets, and a workbench worth of reloading tools has either arrived or is on it's way to my door. I've spent weeks reading guides on one forum or another, and I've bought and read the Lyman guide and the ABC's of Reloading. But before I start the major steps of the reloading process, I thought I'd ask some of my questions of the assembled gurus here.
1. I ended up with CCI #250 primers. These are, at least in terms of combustion, a clone of the milspec #34 primers. But, they're magnum primers, and none of the recipes I have call for magnum primers. That question has been asked here, and also asked on the CMP forums, and the answer is always "sure, use them, but back off n grains." Can I get a consensus on what n should be?
2. I have the Lyman manual, I've got a copy of the Garand page from the Hornady manual, I looked at the Speer manual in my local store today, and the IMR/Hodgon/Winchester loads are available online. Plus lots of experts have their preferred recipes online. There seems to be a pretty good consensus on 47 grains being a good load for my 168 grain bullets, and everyone seems to agree the maximum is somewhere between 48 and 50. But starting loads are all over the map, from down at 41 grains all the way up to 46.5. I assume that since the Hornady manual is the one that's specific for the Garand, I'd be advised to go with their starting load of 41.4 grains? (and then go even lower due to the #250 primers...)
3. Between here, the CMP forums, and some guides by famous shooters, I've read several good "rules of thumb" listed below. What do the assembled gurus think of these from their experience?
- If using milsurp brass, remove 1 grain from the load
- If using IMR 4064 in a recipe that calls for 4895, add one grain
- If your goal is accuracy, particularly at "short range" of ~200 yards, drop one grain
4. I have brass from several sources: milsurp LC, KA, and HXP, American Eagle, Remington, as well as a bunch of Hornady cased ammo that will hopefully be once-fired after a KD shoot this weekend :--- Obviously I plan to sort by headstamp and work up loads for each, as what works well in LC probably won't perform the same in the American Eagle brass. But how specific do I need to be? Can I assume that all the milsurp will be generally the same? Or do I need to go the opposite direction, and sort not just by source, but by year or group of years?
1With the magnum primers start powder charge low and work up.
2 41.4 4 should be good for starting with magnum primers.
For saftey figure that 47 grains could be max. a 10% reduction of that would be 47-4.7= 42.3 grains, drop another .9 grains for the magnum primer everything should be safe.
3 I'm going to skip
4 if your brass is from several sources then weight sort your brass.
Your sized/ trimmed brass shoud have the same outside diminension. Heavier peices of brass will have less volume and require less powder.
Really, just start with light powder charges, and look for signs of excees pressure. (half witchcraft in it's own right)
Do not exceed charges listed by reputable sources.
Experiment to find out what works in your rifle.
The variation in brass weight, and bullet weight may seem alarming.
Just good reason to use a moderate load of powder for a margin of saftey.
I wouldn't follow those "rules" in #3.
Just do what Mark mentioned, start low and work up, you'll be fine.
Separate the cases by brand and date.
I doubt you'll see enough difference in accuracy unless you're going to use a real accurate bolt gun.
Most semi-autos and factory (non special) bolt guns just don't have enough accuracy to see the difference in the brass.
That said, you MIGHT see a difference in zero, and you might not.
Expansion on#3.
A. Many years ago milsurp brass was American made to US military specifications,
Commerical was either winchesters, remingtons, or federals.
Now days milsurp could be made in any location in the world, the specifications could be to please any of many small governments, with varing needs, and various ways of greasing the inspector's palm.
Commerical manafactures also have expanded in quanity, with quality going both better and worse.
Knowing the volume of your brass is not a big issue if you only have brass from one lot, or even one manafacturer.
If your brass comes from range pickups segretating your brass into lots of large volume and small volume could have benifits.
Your powder scale makes a good segerating tool.
B. I'm with Nickle, I woud not follow that rule.
C.I did that once, loaded ammo with less powder for an appleseed. Save some recoil on me, and strecth the powder supply a bit.
Got snowed out and did not shoot all the light loaded ammo up.
Months later during a spree of cleaning the reloading room, that ammo got mixed in with my full power ammo. Months later when shooting the mixed ammo some variations were noticeable.
It's just so much easyer to load the same ammo for a rifle, and have confidence that your rifle will function and sight setting is valid.
Thanks for the responses. I'm glad to see that your thoughts track with mine, apparently I'm getting a decent grasp on the basics. I'd been leaning towards the 41 grain load to start, it's clearly a safe option, I just wasn't sure it was the right starting spot. Those three "rules" seemed questionable to me, but they were from apparently respected source, so I wanted to throw them out and see what people here thought.
I had not considered segregating my brass by weight, that's a good tip. Presumably I should do that after I resize and trim? I would say that about half my existing brass is KA headstamps from the 70's, about half is LC headstamps, also from the 70's, and a small but growing percentage are shiny new Winchester cases. Just from feel, the Winchester cases feel heavier and more solid, I'll have to see what the scale says.
Resizing won't change the weight, so before or after makes no difference.
Trimming does change the weight, so weigh before, and after and check the difference on paper (target paper).
I see this all the time today's reloading books are 10-20% lower then older books.
I ran 48.5gr I'm 4895 behind SMK 175. No problems. That was also military brass.
2750fps.
But my garand tip top. Not some rat grade.
As long as oprod isn't crap and tilt test works your garand can run hot stuff.
If your worry get a plug. $25 is cheap insurance.
Is it needed? only if you shoot 1000 yards and you can hold moa.
Other wise your betting your self up.
100-200 yard with people only being able to hold 3 moa you can shoot any light load doesn't matter much.
I think most reload books today are geared to beginners. Lawyers and what not.
I know this is an old thread but thought I'd add a thing or two.
Since the majority of this thread deals with M1 Garand loading, for those who want to load light bullets, 110-130 grains, go over to the CMP reloading forum. There is a TON of information from people that know more than me. The speer 125 grain seems to be one if not the favorite bullet for light loads. Some folks love the lighter bullets for 100-200 yard shooting. One these days I'll get around to trying some light bullets in my M1. Just because it's not USGI "spec" doesn't mean it won't be a good, safe load that will function 100%.
On another subject, the hornady manual (and probably others) have sections specifically for the Garand/M14 type rifles. I think many make loading for these rifles much more difficult than it is in reality-to much "information" online now days. No need to reinvent the wheel, load development for these rifles was done years ago.
Old thread but good info. I just started reloading after I bought the basic equipment and dies a few months ago. I bought dies for .30-06, .308, 300 AAC, 5.56x45, and .45 acp.
I have only loaded .45 ACP (for fun) and 300 Blackout ammo because that is the only caliber that I can shoot that did not have a source of cheap factory ammo available.
I have processed a lot of my once fired Greek ammo from my M1 Garand and was wondering if anyone had ever tried using accelerators in the reloads. Accelerators are just plastic sabots that allow you to load a .224 round in a .308 caliber case. They used to be a big fad many years ago. You can still find them online from third party manufacturers. These accelerators allow a 30 caliber rifle to push a heavy .224 round down range at 4,000+ fps with a light powder load. I have fired them in a bolt action .308 and they work well. I do not own a semi-auto .308 to test them in.
What are some good loads for the m1 garand? I plan on picking one up from cmp. Was told ya can't use the current loading since they are suited for bolt actions. They'd otherwise damage the rifle unless loaded down or with similar ball powder at a lower pressure.
Hodgdon reloading data center has specific loads for m1 grand. Would start there
Quote from: Moab on November 11, 2023, 09:59:56 AM
What are some good loads for the m1 garand? I plan on picking one up from cmp. Was told ya can't use the current loading since they are suited for bolt actions. They'd otherwise damage the rifle unless loaded down or with similar ball powder at a lower pressure.
Saved from an older website:
Recommended .30 caliber M1 loadings from the NRA
147 - 155 grain FMJ or HPBT bullets
IMR 3031 - 48.0 grains
IMR 4895 - 49.0 grains
IMR 4064 - 50.0 grains
W748 - 48.0 grains
AA2460 - 49.0 grains
AA2520 - 51.0 grains
AA2495 - 50.5 grains
H4895 - 49.0 grains
BLC-2 - 49.0 grains
H335 - 49.0 grains
RL-12 - 48.0 grains
165/168 grain FMJ, HP or SP bullets
IMR 4895 - 47.0 grains
IMR 4094 - 48.0 grains
AA2520 - 47.5 grains
AA2495 - 47.0 grains
H4895 - 47.5 grains
BLC-2 - 49.0 grains
H335 - 47.0 grains
RL-12 - 44.5 grains
173/175 grain FMJ or HPBT bullets
IMR 4895 - 46.0 grains
IMR 4064 - 47.0 grains
AA2460 - 46.0 grains
AA2495 - 46.0 grains
H4895 - 47.0 grains
BLC-2 - 48.0 grains
180 grain FMJ, SP or HPBT bullets
IMR 4895 - 43.0 grains
AA2460 - 46.5 grains
AA2495 - 45.5 grains
H4895 - 44.0 grains
BLC-2 - 47.5 grains
RL-12 - 41.5 grains
Master Po's comments
These loads only duplicate military spec. velocities for the given bullet weight, using commercial cases and powders. If you are using military cases, drop all charges by 2 grains.
If you are looking for accuracy, drop all charges by 1 grain and work up .2 grains at a time.
Master Po's Ancient M1 load secret
This is my personal M1 load I use in my CMP M1. It will shoot better than Master Po can. I worked this load up, as you should for your own rifle.
Remington .30/06 cases, flash holes deburred and weighed within 1 grain.
Federal GM210M Primers (Master Po has heard the horror stories of Federal match primers in the M1/M1A rifles. If you're squeamish or new to reloading, use Winchester Large Rifle)
47.0 grains IMR 4064
Sierra 175 grain MatchKing
Overall length 3.340 inches
This load, in my M1, duplicates almost perfectly the M72 match load specification with a very low standard deviation. Groups off the bench run 1 - 1.5 inches with the original 1945 barrel on the rifle. Of course, Grasshopper YMMV.
Been looking for that all day. FWIW: before Hodgdon had specific reloading data on the Garand, I used Master Po's recipes.
Quote from: Guns&Hoses on November 11, 2023, 04:28:52 PM
Quote from: Moab on November 11, 2023, 09:59:56 AM
What are some good loads for the m1 garand? I plan on picking one up from cmp. Was told ya can't use the current loading since they are suited for bolt actions. They'd otherwise damage the rifle unless loaded down or with similar ball powder at a lower pressure.
Saved from an older website:
Recommended .30 caliber M1 loadings from the NRA
147 - 155 grain FMJ or HPBT bullets
IMR 3031 - 48.0 grains
IMR 4895 - 49.0 grains
IMR 4064 - 50.0 grains
W748 - 48.0 grains
AA2460 - 49.0 grains
AA2520 - 51.0 grains
AA2495 - 50.5 grains
H4895 - 49.0 grains
BLC-2 - 49.0 grains
H335 - 49.0 grains
RL-12 - 48.0 grains
165/168 grain FMJ, HP or SP bullets
IMR 4895 - 47.0 grains
IMR 4094 - 48.0 grains
AA2520 - 47.5 grains
AA2495 - 47.0 grains
H4895 - 47.5 grains
BLC-2 - 49.0 grains
H335 - 47.0 grains
RL-12 - 44.5 grains
173/175 grain FMJ or HPBT bullets
IMR 4895 - 46.0 grains
IMR 4064 - 47.0 grains
AA2460 - 46.0 grains
AA2495 - 46.0 grains
H4895 - 47.0 grains
BLC-2 - 48.0 grains
180 grain FMJ, SP or HPBT bullets
IMR 4895 - 43.0 grains
AA2460 - 46.5 grains
AA2495 - 45.5 grains
H4895 - 44.0 grains
BLC-2 - 47.5 grains
RL-12 - 41.5 grains
Master Po's comments
These loads only duplicate military spec. velocities for the given bullet weight, using commercial cases and powders. If you are using military cases, drop all charges by 2 grains.
If you are looking for accuracy, drop all charges by 1 grain and work up .2 grains at a time.
Master Po's Ancient M1 load secret
This is my personal M1 load I use in my CMP M1. It will shoot better than Master Po can. I worked this load up, as you should for your own rifle.
Remington .30/06 cases, flash holes deburred and weighed within 1 grain.
Federal GM210M Primers (Master Po has heard the horror stories of Federal match primers in the M1/M1A rifles. If you're squeamish or new to reloading, use Winchester Large Rifle)
47.0 grains IMR 4064
Sierra 175 grain MatchKing
Overall length 3.340 inches
This load, in my M1, duplicates almost perfectly the M72 match load specification with a very low standard deviation. Groups off the bench run 1 - 1.5 inches with the original 1945 barrel on the rifle. Of course, Grasshopper YMMV.
Oh great Master Po,
Federal, in its foolishness, seems to have discontinued the Vital-Shok BTSP ammunition that features the GameKing. In fact, Federal does not seem to be using any Sierra bullets. It is good the masters teach such traditional wisdom to the tadpoles when others abandon it.