Project Appleseed

Put your questions and comments about the .223/5.56 in this thread.

Greetings!

I myself have never reloaded, but I am starting to get into reloading, and plan on reloading 5.56 soonly.  Fortunately, I have at hand an expert reloader with pistol and .308, who has a chronograph, and will be helping me every step of the way.

I am posting to bring folk's attention to the following link:

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html

One, for it's utility, and two, to ask resident experts how useful it really is.  It's a trajectory calculator that takes all potential effective data concerning a round, and produces a trajectory analysis in inches and minutes of drop (or windage, if you add wind into the mix).

What I have been doing here, is entering all relevant data (sight height from barrel, round weight, etc) and then fiddling with muzzle velocity to create a "best match" for MOA drops at X, Y, and Z distances with the clicks on my rear sight elevation.  Then checking against different sites (such as AR15forums) that post reload data, to match my desired muzzle velocity to a 'proven' load to get the specs I would need to reload to to reproduce said trajectory.

(Thank you RWVA and Appleseed - without learning MOA from you, I would not have had even the concept to do this sort of thing)

I have had to revise the parameters recently, after learning that the 80 grain 5.56 I had really wanted would have a seat length extending beyond my magazine length, requiring single loading that was just not practicable.

So I went down to 77 grain and re-fiddled with the muzzle velocity to make a match, and wound up with a load that (while not matching the numbers on my rear elevation wheel) allows me to get POA-POI sighting from 100 yds to 850 yds from a 5.56

The PLAN I have, is to load a 55 grain target round to a muzzle velocity that gives me perfect POA-POI trajectories at KD's 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500 -- and then load a 77 grain "battle" round that lets me reach out to 850-900 yards settling "clicks" on my elevation according to 12 yard increments.

Basically, I am looking to spur a discussion on how ballistics and trajectory figure in to reloading, and to discuss how accurate sites such as the above mentioned

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html

really are.


I am assuming, of course, that once I have some test-sets of both my "battle" round and my "target" round, I would need to take them to a KD range and fire groups to verify trajectory, then going back to the reloading bench to fine-tune, finally returning to the range with the final product and then fine-tuning my sight adjustments.

Since I have never reloaded before, i am simply looking for someone to help by critiquing my methodology and giving me further ideas to go with.

Many thanks, and Semper Fi!

Glen

1shot, I haven't checked the utility yet, but I will tell you that sometimes when you change loads, the windage and elevation both change.

I'm not sure why this is so, but suspect it has some to do with barrel harmonics, and the time from firing until the bullet exits the barrel, and the exact moment in the harmonics that the bullet exits the barrel.

Kind of complicated, to say the least, but, the bottom line is the POI may change in ways you don't expect, such as windage.

And, I expect you to be suspicious, as it didn't ever make sense to me, either, but it is like I said.

Glen,

I agree with Nickle, I have even seen POI changes on different years of otherwise identical ammo (different years of LC M2 Ball, for example) and different countries manufacture of "supposedly" completely identical and interchangeable ammo like 7.62 X 51 NATO Ball, M80.

Your sights should have been set for either M193 ball or M855 Ball.  I would start out by reproducing THOSE loads and work on the more exotic stuff lately.

I also think you are pushing the 55 gr. bullet expecting it to work at 500 yards.  The Army didn't use it past 300 yards on KD ranges like the SAFS at Camp Perry.  With the old M16A1 and Ball, M193 we fired at 200 yards and 300 yards only at the SAFS, and this was held on Viale Range which has positions and is usable right out to 1,000 yards, so it was NOT a range facilities limitation.

Some on this list say it is good to 400 yards.  I have never tried it, so I won't say they are wrong, but from what I see the velocity is going to be too low to get any terminal action out of the bullet and it is just going to punch holes like a nail gun.

Buckshot

I have used M193 Ball at 400 meters, from the M16A1, and I will say it gets there, and knocks the silhouettes down (it did when I went to Boot Camp in 1972). I don't think I would trust the terminal ballistics, though, specifically the wound ballistics.

Yes, I know 55 gr knocks the 480yd popups down at the home range, which is why I'd feel comfortable with it for a target round.  My battle round will be 77 grain. 8-)

Quote from: 1shot on June 16, 2007, 03:47:11 PM
Yes, I know 55 gr knocks the 480yd popups down at the home range, which is why I'd feel comfortable with it for a target round.  My battle round will be 77 grain. 8-)

Sounds like the smart way to go. Just remember you will have to reverify zero when switching ammo, and you'll be all set.

62 grain is the proper weight for rifle with a 1:7 twist, right(e.g. M16A2)?

When I can do a lot more reloading in my free time(and money to buy all the equipment), I plan on Reloading for my Colt Sporter AR-15. I really like the performance of the Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt HPBT ammo.

62 gr BT bullets are said to be the best choice for the 1-7 twist. I recommend them, for sure. You should have better luck with them than the 55 gr in that twist.

To my understanding, the 77 grain rounds actually work better not only precision at range, but also in terminal ballistics and damage done.  62 grain has been the military standard since the 1:7 was introduced, but many of the SF units using M16A2's in country are pulling strings to get the 77 grain rounds, although more expensive, according to reports does a better job at doing the job.

I myself have a 1:7 twist, and have experienced decent performance with the 55 grain knocking down popups and punching holes in paper at 480 and 500 yards.  I am sure that 62 grain would be more accurate at 400 and 500 than the 55 gr, but the margin can't be too awful great since I was hitting the 480 popups without difficulty.

The best accuracy at 500 and beyond - not to mention the force of impact at long range - will obviously be with the 77 grain.

Black Hills Gold is providing 77 grain match rounds to units OIF in Iraq and Afghanistan today.  From what I have heard, it's doing a significantly better job than the M855 62 gr.

I do believe, also, that there is an M designation for the new 77 grain 5.56 round.  I don't know it offhand, but it is quite new.


edited to add:  I really REALLY wanted to go with the 80 grain for my battle round - given that I could get it FMJ as opposed to HP - but discovered through my reloading research that you can't seat the 80 gr projectile deep enough to load in a magazine and I would have to single load.  So I compromised to the 77 grain projectile being introduced OIF in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Quote from: 1shot on June 17, 2007, 07:25:59 AM
To my understanding, the 77 grain rounds actually work better not only precision at range, but also in terminal ballistics and damage done.  62 grain has been the military standard since the 1:7 was introduced, but many of the SF units using M16A2's in country are pulling strings to get the 77 grain rounds, although more expensive, according to reports does a better job at doing the job.

I myself have a 1:7 twist, and have experienced decent performance with the 55 grain knocking down popups and punching holes in paper at 480 and 500 yards.  I am sure that 62 grain would be more accurate at 400 and 500 than the 55 gr, but the margin can't be too awful great since I was hitting the 480 popups without difficulty.

The best accuracy at 500 and beyond - not to mention the force of impact at long range - will obviously be with the 77 grain.

Black Hills Gold is providing 77 grain match rounds to units OIF in Iraq and Afghanistan today.  From what I have heard, it's doing a significantly better job than the M855 62 gr.

I do believe, also, that there is an M designation for the new 77 grain 5.56 round.  I don't know it offhand, but it is quite new.


edited to add:  I really REALLY wanted to go with the 80 grain for my battle round - given that I could get it FMJ as opposed to HP - but discovered through my reloading research that you can't seat the 80 gr projectile deep enough to load in a magazine and I would have to single load.  So I compromised to the 77 grain projectile being introduced OIF in Iraq and Afghanistan.

1Shot,

What powder are you going to use for the 77 gr. bullet and what velocity are you projecting?

Buckshot

Couple of comments here (I'm coming from lots of fiddling with reloading and a little & growing background in NRA High Power).

1) As a target round, 77's work great in a 1:8 twist to 600 yards (this is a standard for a High Power Service Rifle).  I've personally shot them there and shot with lots of others doing the same.

2) Windage does change with distance.  The path of a bullet is not a 2-dimensional arc, but rather a 3-D arcing corkscrew.  If you've ever seen trace through a spotting scope, or a tracer, you can observe this.  The cause is that the bullet is not exactly lined up with the flight path (yaw) and that mis-alignment is not the same all the time - it rotates around the flight path like the axis of a wobbly top (term is precession).

3) I think the original question is on the accuracy of sites such as the one above.  Couple of observations I have about this.

• The information (trajectories) are based on a mathematical model (duh) and they are sensitive to numbers input for BC (ballistic coefficient)
• The basic models don't hold very well
• The more complex models require very accurate figures for BCs
• The numbers published are off enough to make your calculations off - this is because their BCs are calced at a particular temp, humidity, and altitude, phase of the moon...
• BCs are different for different velocities - check out Sierra's for figures on SMKs
• If you really want to explore this, you need to get an average BC by determining velocity drop over a known distance.  The BC will be different for different distances.  You do this by placing your chrono down range and shooting through it with loads for which you already know a muzzle velocity.  There's software that will do this.

Sounds complicated, and it can be.  I read an article in the last issue of Shooting Times, written by Ken Oehler (Oehler Chronographs) that discusses how to get around some of this.  Let me see what I can dig up...

There is a different approach - typical of accuracy shooters such as bench resters and High Power competitors.  High Power guys live and die by sight adjustments at KDs.  However, they generally look for a load that is the most accurate out of their gun (and above a minimum velocity so that it doesn't take too many clicks).  They are looking for the smallest group size.  Then they shoot at distance and record the come-ups.  You'll see lots of notes in a book, and sometimes taped to the rifle, about mechanical zero, then come-ups for distance. 

Point is, they don't try to do fine mathematical predictions about sight adjustment.  They go for accuracy (repeatability), then observe and record adjustments under real conditions.  Since you are handloading and using bullets that don't have a standard military designation (i.e. bullet weight and velocity), this might be a better approach.  If you find a model that fits your observations (i.e. MOA at KD), you might use it to predict unknowns...

Quote from: KY Gungeek on June 17, 2007, 11:12:24 PM

Sounds complicated, and it can be.  I read an article in the last issue of Shooting Times, written by Ken Oehler (Oehler Chronographs) that discusses how to get around some of this.  Let me see what I can dig up...

Found my mag articles - Shooting Times, June 2007.  This is a quote from Ken Oehler's column "Oehler on Ballistics".  Page 21.

"...there is no assurance that the bullet's behavior is actually described by G1 at other velocities.  Matter of fact, we know that G1 doesn't fit modern long-range hunting bullets or the very low drag bullets.

How do we know which of the published drag functions to use with a particular bullet?  We know that the long range results from most ballistic programs do not fit the observed shooting results."

Oehler goes on to explain that the military uses doppler radar (or other methods) to determine a much more accurate description of a particular round's trajectory.  Not a mathematical prediction, but an observation of the actual path. 

G1 is a mathematical model of the drag which is how the trajectory is calculated.  There are several others.  The quote above appears just after a discussion about how difficult it is to get good measurements of BC.

Oehler ends this article with a teaser about how we can use G1 (and other models) to get better results...

The stuff the Navy supplied us for match shooting is 5.56MM LR MK 262 MOD 1.   It's a 77gr HPBT match bullet, and it's great stuff.  I scored 182  (out of 200) at 1000yds at Quantico last year with it (that didn't hold a candle to what the Army and Marines were doing -- But it was pretty good for me and my AR15 for our first go ever at 1000yds!).

I've heard rumors that it's identical to the Black Hills 77gr match ammo, and that they make it for the military.

Swamp

Quote from: Swampfox on June 18, 2007, 06:58:15 AM
The stuff the Navy supplied us for match shooting is 5.56MM LR MK 262 MOD 1.   It's a 77gr HPBT match bullet, and it's great stuff.  I scored 182  (out of 200) at 1000yds at Quantico last year with it (that didn't hold a candle to what the Army and Marines were doing -- But it was pretty good for me and my AR15 for our first go ever at 1000yds!).

I've heard rumors that it's identical to the Black Hills 77gr match ammo, and that they make it for the military.

Swamp

I've heard that not only are they identical, but further that Black Hills are the folks who actually make MK 262 Mod 1 for the military.  I can't rightly remember though, what the difference was between Mod 1 and Mod 2.  I'll have to go back and re-research -- I think I remembered wanting Mod 2 more than Mod 1, but I can't really remember why at this point...

This does not follow the direction this discussion is heading but it works well for me.

21.5 grains of Accurate Arms 2460
Either pulled 55 or 62 grain proj. from Pats and Hightech ammo
Winchester small rifle primers. 
Dillon 550b to fill em

Out of 4 different rifles, two colt's, a dpms, and a frankfort arsenal,  this load all grouped 2-3 inches at 100 yards.

YMMV

Jason

Quote from: Buckshot on June 17, 2007, 08:33:21 PM

1Shot,

What powder are you going to use for the 77 gr. bullet and what velocity are you projecting?

Buckshot

I've calculated 24.2 grains of VARGET powder with a cartrige seat length of 2.255" delivering approx 2700 fps from a 20" barrel AR.

I did all my ballistics calculations for the 80 grain, so I have to recalc for the 77 grain bullet to come up with a more refined target muzzle velocity.  I'm guessing I'll be looking for a muzzle velocity between 2730 and 2750 to achieve desired performance (approx 27 MOA drop at 950 yds).

Unfortunately, the ballistics calculator is not responding at the moment.  I'm thinking it's getting hit too hard right now.

1Shot, load for accuracy, not velocity.  There are a lot of things to keep in mind and "watch" for:
1  you don't want too much pressure so start with a powder charge that is on the low end of the scale (as listed in a chart for that powder/bullet - very obvious signs of high pressure is the primer.  I don't want the rounded edges looking flat, nor do I want the primer metal to start trying to flow back into the firing pin hole in the bolt.  I've never measured the brass diameter before or after so I can't give advice there.
2  watch the overall length, it's got to feed out of the mag. and chamber reliably.  The heavier the bullet the longer the bullet the farther down in the case it has to go the less volume available in case the higher the pressure.  You also need to check to make sure the bullet is not contacting the riflling when the shell is chambered as that can also increase pressure
3  magnum primers increase pressure and old literature says they can decrease accuracy when used in a non-magnum cartridge
4  I used to start with 10 shells with the same powder charge and shoot two 5 shot groups at 300 yds. (this was a .308, you've seen it) I had several sets of 10 rounds with powder charges varied about .2 grn. (I never went anywhere near the max loads as most of the time the most accurate load ends up being a lower velocity/lower pressure load).
5  The promising loads were repeated and shot at 300 yds. again.  If they repeated performance I reloaded and shot out to 600 yds.
6  With my rifle a couple hundred fps slower (if that's what it was) was not and issue if the group was good
7  When you start finding the right combinations of powder, primer, bullet and "build" for your rifle you will be amazed at the difference between "factory" and your reloads
8.  (left this one out by accident the first time) the loads need to reliably function in your semiauto.

As with anything new to you.  Read everything you can get your hands on about it (I bought 4 reloading manuals as I was starting out).  Go slow, don't allow distractions, double check your work, insure the cases chamber fine prior to installing the primer, powder, bullet and again once you get the loads "built".  No sense going to the range with a bunch of shells that won't chamber.  All of this should be assured if you set up the resizer right and went through the OAL set up right. 

This will sound funny after everything I just wrote, but be careful who you listen to when you get advice.  Your rifle is different than just about every other one that looks like it.  What works for someone else probably won't work exactly the same for you (close maybe, but not exactly).  Also, you're working to make something that will operate at pressures in the range of 50,000 psi.  You can't afford to make a mistake - so back to the part above about lots of reading from reliable sources, not hearsay and no distractions while you are "building" those loads.  Good luck.  The right load can reduce your group size by 50% or more.  I've seen it in more than one rifle.

Powders that work well in the .223 are 4320, H322, BL-C 2 and 4895. There are others, so don't be afraid to try more than a couple of them.

Here are my secret sources for bargain M855 clone reloading:

Powder:  Powder Valley Ramshot TAC - 8lb jugs for 78 bucks! (http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/)

Bullets:  GI bullets - Pulled M855 bullets, $35/1000! (http://www.rvow.com/surplus%20bullets.htm#Pulled%2030%20Caliber%20Bullets:%20)  Looks like RVO is out of biz.  Now I'd go here:  Ammunitionstore.com (http://www.ammunitionstore.com)

Brass:   GI Brass (http://www.gibrass.com/index.html) has it for .05/round when he has it.

Primers:   Powder Valley  (http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/) again for Wolf or CCI primers (.018 and .021 respectively)

I've also ordered powder and bullets from Hitech (http://iidbs.com/hitech) but they're out of most of it at the moment.

Right now I'm using 26.5 grains of WC844 from Hitech to replicate M855 velocities.  I'm also on about the 5th reload of Radway Green brass, which has surprised me with its durability and general "good-for-reloading-ness".

1Shot,

I have a question about your "special ammo" the Mk 262 Mod. 0 or Mod. 1 clone.

Is this ammo that you can afford to pass, along with your rifle, to a newbie as loaners at an Appleseed, or is this a specialty ammo?

Do you have an affordable M193 or M855 clone (like Catch223 mentioned above) for things like the 25 meter stages at an Appleseed?

Not implying anything at all, just wondering.  I know at least one guy at our club who made himself some "super ammo" for long range, but he could not afford to shoot a National Match Course with it, per him, it wasted too much money!

Just wondering how you handle this kind of situation.

Buckshot

   Ive been loading ammo for about 25 years now, lots of pistol, rifle and shotgun loads. But just started reloading for auto-loading rifles, namely M1A's and AR15's in the last few years. When loading for these type rifles you must understand "Headspace" as it relates to your rifle and ammo. Also be able to measure your reloaded ammo to be sure it is correctly headspaced for Your rifle. You rifle and your buddy's identical rifle will be slightly different in terms of head space. For example if your rifle is headspaced on the long end of the scale and you full-length resize your fired brass back down to minimal specs, the brass may have to expand several thousandths of an inch to properly seal the chamber. If this is the first  loading (new brass) it probably wont be a problem, but if this process is repeated a few times (sometimes just a couple times) the brass gets over worked and the casehead separates or worse. Ideally what you want to do is resize the brass to 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch (.001"-.002") smaller than your chamber headspace. This gives room for the brass to expand when fired (a must) but doesnt overwork the brass prematurely. Measuring the overall length of you cases isnt enough when youre loading for a semi-automatic gun. You must be able to measure the case's headspace which is from the case base to the case's chamber bearing surface which is somewhere on the shoulder.
        What I do is take a once-fired casing from my rifle and measure the headspace (I use a RCBS precision mic), realizing that after the case was fired, it expanded to fill the rifle chamber then contracted back (spring action of the brass) around a thousanth of an inch.
I then set my resizing die to bump the case shoulder back another 1 thousandth of an inch which gives me a case that is .002" smaller than my chamber. These rounds chamber well and function well.
       Another gotcha I found reloading the .223 is that the case necks are very fragile and thus very easily bulged when crimping the bullet, resulting in failure to chamber in the rifle. To get around this I just didn't crimp at all for awhile and this worked fine, later I discovered the Lee factory crimp die which doesn't depend on case length but gives a good crimp without bulged case necks!
                          Happy Loading!

Morguns1cam,

You can do the same thing without all the measuring hassle by taking a case fired in that rifle and resizing it until it will chamber again with only light finger pressure, no spring pressure.  Then turn the die in 1/4 more turn.

That is how we did it back in the late '70s before all the fancy, expensive tools were so common.

You just have to have a sizing die for each rifle, or take the time to find the rifle with the smallest chamber in that caliber and reload ALL rounds like they were for that rifle.

Buckshot

I'm not an expert by any means.  I suppose I've just been lucky with my reloads (as well as other things).  I began reloading .223 for my M700 Rem. VS.  Later when I got my mini14 it digested the same reloads with no issues.  I thought I was setting the die up for a minimal amount of resizing (leaving a small oily ring around neck right where the neck and shoulder meet.)  The only issue with the mini14 was that the twist rate of the barrel was too fast for some of the thin jacketed varmint bullet I was using (the blitz and sx bullets they used to make).

I only had one .308 so no resizing issues there from gun to gun.

I started reloading 30.06 for my US Enfield and my father in laws 742 Rem.  Again, resizing to leave that little oily ring those reloads fired in both of those rifles and later when I added the other bolt action WW1 30.06's they worked fine in all of those.

I think if you have a problem you're better off spending the time to really figure out why than to just accept what someone who hasn't fired your rifle, prepared your brass and reloaded your ammo for you "guesses" might be wrong from the comfort of the internet.  This isn't to say you shouldn't ask for advice as many times the varied advice you get can contain the answer you're looking for. 

The bottom line is you knowing what caused the problem is better than trying different things till something works and then accepting "common wisdom" about why it worked.

Have a good one and good luck with your reloading - but better than luck is lots of reading about reloading in reloading manuals and workg out your issues and coming to a workable solution for you rifles.

OK, I had a very weak moment and knuckled under to
owning a black rifle.   The Bushmaster 16" HB, 1 in 9" barrel
with adjustable stock and removeable carry handle arrived
yesterday.   Main question is what bullet weights will this
twist handle, and what range of wts are ideal for that twist?
   What accuracy can I expect out of the box without tweaking
it with a floating forearm and such.   I plan on using some form
of hollow point or expanding with the thought in might give an
edge for unimpressive military ballistics of the full jacket.
   Goal is to provide energy pressure to reliably fuction the AR
action, and to ring out as much accuracy out of this as is in it's
form of A4 type Carbine. ???
   One Shot, I don't know when you served, but in the early
sixties, the M16s were pure junk due to a number of factors
from design,  bullet wts did not match twists, dirty powder
that would vomit it back through the action, and it would
plain quit running when ya didn't want it to.   After many
modifications, I guess with proper maintenance, it has been
much improved.   At least I hope that I won't be disappointed!

Oohrah
You should be able to shoot any bullet from 50 to 75 gr. The heavier bullets you will have to push a little harder to get them to stabilize well. If you push the lighter or varmit bullets too fast they will blow up or your accuracy will go to hell. Varget or Reloader-15 will do excellently for powder. IMR4895 works well too but is harder to meter & dump in the case. Load to magazine length. If you get a good tight neck sizing you do not need to crimp the bullets. Load to magazine length. This will be the recommended OAL in most manuals. Don't push for max. velocity. I've found best accuracy for a given load is roughly around 10% less than max. One of the big keys to accuracy is to follow Bushmasters included instructions to break in your barrel. (Also on their website) If you reload carefully it is very possible to consistently get sub MOA groups. A friend of mine recently bought a 1-9 20" flat top and put a big Nightforce on it. He is getting 1/2 MOA at 600 yds with the Hornady 75 Ballistic tips & 23.5 gr Varget.

Quote from: Oohrah on October 26, 2007, 02:11:26 AM
OK, I had a very weak moment and knuckled under to
owning a black rifle.   The Bushmaster 16" HB, 1 in 9" barrel
with adjustable stock and removeable carry handle arrived
yesterday.   Main question is what bullet weights will this
twist handle, and what range of wts are ideal for that twist?
   What accuracy can I expect out of the box without tweaking
it with a floating forearm and such.   I plan on using some form
of hollow point or expanding with the thought in might give an
edge for unimpressive military ballistics of the full jacket.
   Goal is to provide energy pressure to reliably fuction the AR
action, and to ring out as much accuracy out of this as is in it's
form of A4 type Carbine. ???
   One Shot, I don't know when you served, but in the early
sixties, the M16s were pure junk due to a number of factors
from design,  bullet wts did not match twists, dirty powder
that would vomit it back through the action, and it would
plain quit running when ya didn't want it to.   After many
modifications, I guess with proper maintenance, it has been
much improved.   At least I hope that I won't be disappointed!

1/9 rifling in a .223 bore prefers 55 gr. bullets, I have a chart back at school that says exactly what twist goes with which size bullet(going off the length of the bullet). That's not to say other sizes will not work well, but from my knowledge(I'll have to double check) that information is correct.

Muddogg, I disagree with that.

1/9 should prefer a much heavier weight than 55 gr.

I'm thinking 62 gr would be good, and not over 69 grain.

Folks, if you think you're going to shoot 77 gr bullets out of a 1/9 twist AR, and get good accuracy, you are wrong. 77 gr bullets are for "1/8" (actually is 1/7.75) or 1/7 twist barrels.

I do know that optimum twist for .223 type velocities and a 52 gr HPBT or 53 gr flat base match bullet would be 1/14 to 1/15. I've used both, usually with a .219 Donaldson Wasp or .22 PPC (I hate the PPC). Those both have the same velocity, plus or minus a little, that the .223 has.

I would say a 1/12 twist should be optimum for the 55 gr bullet.

Quote from: Nickle on October 26, 2007, 07:19:22 PM
Muddogg, I disagree with that.

1/9 should prefer a much heavier weight than 55 gr.

I'm thinking 62 gr would be good, and not over 69 grain.

Folks, if you think you're going to shoot 77 gr bullets out of a 1/9 twist AR, and get good accuracy, you are wrong. 77 gr bullets are for "1/8" (actually is 1/7.75) or 1/7 twist barrels.

I do know that optimum twist for .223 type velocities and a 52 gr HPBT or 53 gr flat base match bullet would be 1/14 to 1/15. I've used both, usually with a .219 Donaldson Wasp or .22 PPC (I hate the PPC). Those both have the same velocity, plus or minus a little, that the .223 has.

I would say a 1/12 twist should be optimum for the 55 gr bullet.

Agreed.

Many thanks Joe.   A ray of hope that perhaps that a kill
with accuracy, rather than performance is possible.   No
instructions on barrel break in  were sent with the rifle.
The only experience loading was for a Mini 14 that was
pretty much ho hum with 55 gr of anything.   Picked up a
bolt gun with loading information with it, for lt. weight bullets
(favorite 40 gr Noslers) that I suspect is a 1 in 12 twist.
This 1 in 9 picks up the higher end gap.
   Unless varmits, I don't feel much over 300yds. I would opt
for a larger caliber to increase bullet energy.   MOA at 300
I could live with.   Appears I do have some work cut out to
my energies toward the bolt gun that I have a start, and the
Bushmaster that will be a new experience from the get go.
All of the gas guns have certain perimeters that allow them to
operate well.   None I have worked with were ever at their best
with max loads.   Great info Joe
Semper Fi

Where are y'all getting 77 grain projectiles?

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http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=955601 (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=955601) $11.99 per 50

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I began saving Boxer brass a few years ago and continue to throw away the Berdan brass, although with current prices I'm shooting a lot less of even this. I have done no reloading to date but keep looking at all that empty brass. I have various calibers of pistol and rifle brass.

I have two questions about reloading in general.
I see a powder called IMR 4007 SSC advertised as usable in basically all calibers. I know that every reloader seems to have his favorite powder for different calibers but would this really be a good solution for a beginner, one powder fits all?

Second, I know that it is "possible" to reload the Berdan stuff. Should I start to save that also? Do people really reload it that much? Well, I guess that's three questions but I'm beginning to wonder a lot about that throw-away brass.

Looking forward to your advice. Doug Fir

Take this piece of info from a prossenioal reloader (check the definition of professional).

Berdan primed brass CAN be reloaded.

Reliability is less than optimum, primers are expensive, and taking the old ones out is time consuming, and a pain in the butt.

I know HOW, have the tools to do it over at the shop, and I don't reload Berdan.

That should give you your answer.

That IMR 4007 SSC would be a poor choice, IMNSHO.

It falls between 4064 and 4350 for burn rate. Too slow for an M1 or M14 clone.

I suggest 4895. That powder will reload most rifle calibers, and is 100% correct for the 30-06 in the M1, 308 in the M14 and 223 in the AR. It doesn't measure so nice, but it measure tolerably well.

   The larger Berdan primer has twin posts in the primer pockets
that depriming hydraulic is the only sure way to not damage one
or both posts.   I am sure that they are not as available as boxer
primers and used to be be more expensive.   Very time consuming
to do this stage.   Also it seems like I could not get a primer
punch and had to modify an old nutcracker Lyman 310 primer
die to work (Berdan is larger so regular stuff doesn't work.   Like
Nickle said, not worth the effort and end up with not so quality
results for the time spent.   Sell the cases for scrap, and use the
money to buy once fired boxer primed.   At least with the GI boxer
you only have to swedge primer pockets once to use them for the
life of the case.
   Some other powders even through 4895 covers a lot of uses is
BLC 2,  and some others can do simular depending on the bullet
weights you use.  Varget also comes to mind.   I think that you
would be further ahead if you didn't limit yourself to a single powder
to cover multiple calibers and weights as you need to find the
load that works best for each rifle and each has it's own personal-
ity within pressure and velocity that are tolerated in semi autos.
You need to first figure out  what bullet wt. and pressure range
is acceptable and you will find out through loading  books what
works between min and max, giving the best accuracy. ;D

Inputs please

Working for the accurate load in my M4gery using the Hornady Book.
Load data:      Case:  LC
                     Powder:  AA2520
                     Primer: WSR
                     Bullet:  Horn 75gr BTHP

Have done 4 different powder loads.....starting load of 18.6, 19.6, 20.5 & 21.5.
Only load not used is Max @ 22.5.

Last two loads (20.5 listed at 2300fps & 21.5 listed at 2400 fps) both give me 3/4" groups at 25m off the bench.  Ya, I know....off the bench   ::)

Primers of both look good, with the higher load (21.5gr) flattening the primer some , but still having well defined rounded edges.  Primers look identical to Black Hills reman 68 gr that I have fired.  Judging by the primers I believe the
max load would be over presssure for my rifle.

I'm leaning towards the 21.5 gr load as believe it will give better long range & terminal performance.

What think ye??

I'm not very familiar with that powder, but, it sounds like everything works OK.

Definitely accurate enough  to get the job done.

And, yeah, shooting from the bench is perfectly acceptable to check stuff out.

AA2520 is a good powder, just beware of the down-sides to it.

It meters really well, but it is VERY temperature sensitive. If you work up loads at 70F outside, then go to (oh, say, for instance) a Texas shoot in the summer where the temperatures off the concrete shooting line are well over 100F, you can have some serious overpressure problems if the load is anywhere near maximum for your rifle.

I used that powder for a couple of years in competition 308 rounds. I quit using it 'cause I wanted to use the same ammo for competition and long-range work. The AA2520 wasn't good for long-range work: in the morning I'd be shooting low, in the heat of the day I'd be shooting high. As in over a foot high at 600.

The only powder I can think of off the top of my head that is more sensitive to temperature swings is IMR4064.

A powder worth trying is 4895. Just be careful of pressure with it.

I go with accuracy over velocity.  What's the difference in velocity from 1/2 to 1 grain of powder more or less?  I don't think a target can tell the difference between a bullet that leaves the muzzle at 2800 fps. vs. 3100 fps.  The target can tell the difference between a hit and a miss.  The smaller the target, the smaller the group has to be.

Accuracy over velocity.

As to the use of a bench.  I don't mean this to come off as bragging because it's supposed to be a testimonial to what I've learned since joining the RWVA and going to an RBC and becoming an instructor.  

I used to use a rest any time I was working up new reloads or sighting in a rifle (pre-RWVA).  The last time I sighted in a rifle (Feb. RBC at Ramseur) my old H&R M1 (using the techniques taught by the RWVA) was shooting dime sized 3 shot groups from a sling supported prone position with two of the bullets tearing the same hole bigger - with Greek surplus - at 25 meters.  I have put 4 of 5 shots (another M1 with Greek surplus) into a 1 inch square from a sling supported sitting position at 25 meters.  I'm not a "real" rifleman yet.  The first four were in the 1" square and I went and let it get me all excited and sure enough, number 5 did not end up inside that same black square (a real rifleman would be so used to such shooting that he wouldn't get all excited and flustered and mess up that fifth shot).

This stuff works.  It worked for me, it'll work for you.

Bravo,

AA2520 does meter well!! From your input though it sounds like I should go for the lighter load.  Temp at this mornings shoot was 55.  Have a lot of respect for overpressure.

This loading for accuracy is new for me, as all my reloading was for plinking pistol loads. By accident found some accurate loads for my 357mag, but went along fat dumb and happy until the day I missed the overpressure signs of a 45 ACP load (the load by the way was well below max) and the gun came apart in my hand :o  No injuries except for my Tarus.    :'(    I have the pieces as a reminder!

Nickle,

I'll give that 4895 a try.  The Hornady book lists 6 loads for it.

And now for another question?  Measuring & trimming the neck.  When, how and with what?
I'm using an RCBS Trim Pro to trim case length and I see that RCBS has some attachment for turning the neck, but I'm not understanding the process.  Please enlighten me   ???

After you use up all of your AA2520 try RE 15 or Varget. 

They are both less temp sensitive and most HP AR shooters in my area are using one or the other. 

Also, both are recommended by Glen Zediker in his book The Competitive AR15.

I hate to stick my neck out too far (I don't load heavies in the 5.56) but if you're going to be shooting at the short-line, I'd just go with a lighter charge of the 2520. You won't see deviations in elevation worth talking about until you get out there a ways.

About an hour and a half ago, I picked up another 24 pounds of Benchmark. It's a great powder for 5.56, but I run lighter bullets. For something in the weight class you're running, I'd want a slower powder - something in the neighborhood of (like this will surprise anybody) exactly what Nickle recommended.

That class -which happens to be the 2520 neighborhood- would include Varget and H4895 (ever so slightly faster than Varget). From trial and error, I can tell you that H4895 isn't quite as stable as Varget in the temperature category - but it's still very good. This last summer I was 2.5 MOA high at 1000 in the heat - which is a clean miss. I went back to Varget.

If you want something SLIGHTLY faster than H4895, then take a serious look at Vihta N135. It's a GREAT powder, and extremely clean as well. Temperature stability about the same as H4895 - not tremendous but far from bad.

The worst powders for temperature stability are IMR, Winchester, and the AA sphericals. Which is sad, as Winchester and the AA sphericals are about the easiest metering powders there are.

I wouldn't worry about the neck turning if I were you, unless you have lots of time and you're already wringing everything possible out of your rifle.

The neck turning is a way to make the neck wall thickness the same all the way around.  I forget the reasons why now.  I used to do it, but for a different reason.  I might be tempted to do it for a super accurate bolt action rifle I was trying to shoot at very tiny targets at long distances but not for AQTs.

Yeah, neck turning is a complete and total waste of time. Just buy good brass, and be done with it.

The only reason -IMO- to neck turn brass is if you have a chamber that's so tight it won't chamber. Even then, I'd be tempted to have the neck area of the chamber bored out rather than work over necks.

Do people do it? Sure. But the right question is WHY people do it.

Benchresters do it for super-tight groups out of super-tight guns at 200. "Out there" you can't shoot well enough to make neck turning worth while (e.g. if you can tell the difference between a 12 and 14 MPH wind, that's NOT good 'nuff - if you can tell the difference between a 12.4 and a 12.5 MPH wind, all the way out, THEN you need to neck turn  :D)

Others do it for the 'mental benefit'. Surely, the more confidence you have in your outfit, the better shot you are. Does it produce a 'real' benefit? No. But it does build confidence for some in some cases.

Anyone have anything to say about the Ramshot line of powders, good or bad? They seem to run about 10-15% less $ per 8 lbs than most other brands, so I was wondering if there was a catch.

WARNING: this is NOT first-hand information.

I haven't purchased any of the Ramshot powders personally, but I can tell you what I know.

One of my mentors - one LONG seasoned in precision reloading - set up a small-scale (in comparison to Hornady or Black Hills) ammo manufacturing business. His chosen powder for some applications was Ramshot TAC. According to him, it's a higher percentage nitroglycerine powder (same as Winchester, AA spherical, Vihta N5XX "high energy" series, etc) that has most of the same pros and cons. Meters very well, not as temperature stable as desirable for long-range applications.

His thought was that someone really wanting GREAT long-range ammo was gonna make it anyway (Fed GMM2 and BH is OK, but most any loader can do better for less money), he had to run loads a bit lighter than optimal anyway due to liability concerns, and that the TAC was the best of the nitro powders as far as temperature problems went. Of course, the fact it metered very well was what drew him to it. That's a major concern for pumping out ammo by the truckload.

I was with him when he negotiated for components........ the fact that TAC can be bought for a discount isn't something to ignore obviously.

With that as background, I'd buy TAC for short-line applications. As in for 200 and 300 yards. Whether I'd want to use it for longer ranges would depend on my area (we get BIG daily temperature swings in the high desert - freezing at night and 60's in the day isn't uncommon) and what kind of "uncorrected" accuracy was required at the longer ranges. For me personally, I find it bothersome to segregate ammo - I load one type per caliber for the most part.

I'll echo the comments on neck turning.

Look, I used to be one of those Bench Rest competitors, and neck turning didn't catch on until groups got down to 1/4 MOA. Take my word for it, you DON'T need it for a rack grade semi-auto, or even a Highpower competition gun. If you were to go that route, know that the BR guys use special chambers with tight necks using those cases, and they use hand dies (usually Wilson or Hart) to size their brass, and seat wioth a hand seater (again, Wilson or Hart). Most of them use the same cases all day, shoot 6 record groups with the same 5 cases each time.

Yeah, I've shot a .204" group at 200 meters with a Light Varmint rifle, at a match. It was good enough to be the smallest for that relay, but, not good enough to win the match. And, I'm not bragging, as I wasn't all that good, due to money and time issues.

A couple of general powder comments. I've used WW 748 before, and though it shot well, I had to change loads Summer to Winter. I was using a .30 IHMSA cartridge, about the same capacity as a .30-30, based off the .300 Savage (or .308 Win) case. The loads were several grains different due to temperature, winter loads were WAY too hot for summer use.

Also know that H322 and T322 are to be stayed away from. They don't ignite well in extreme cold conditions. I've seen guys that were keyholing with their 6 PPC's in January. Some would switch to 4895 or N201 (Norma) and that usually fixed it for them.

Pay close attention to what Bravo says about powder (and reloading in general). From my experience, he's almost always right on what he says, and that alone should speak volumes.

Bravo

I really would like to develop just one load to use......so looks like temperature sensitivity is a concern.  Learn something new every day  ;D

Here in Indiana I shoot in below freezing to the upper 90's  (who knows what temps Appleseed will lead me into).   So....... looks like I will give the Varget a try for that project. 
Will do some light loads of the AA2520 for short range (25m) until I use up this
1 lb of powder.   ??? Let's see ......how many rds of 223 @ 20.5 gr will that take ???  More 75gr BTHP than I have on hand!!


I will forget about the neck turning

Thanks

Picked up some H4895 and using Hornady load book built up the first 4 loads.

Fired them today, grouped  7/8", 7/8", 1/2" and 1 1/8".  Still two higher book loads, so load #3 is right in the middle.  Will load up twenty more rds at Load #3 and tweek my scope into the "v" and fire to confirm the load.

Thanks to all for your inputs   ;D

usafe7ret

Anybody have first hand experience with Wolf small rifle primers in terms of ignition, consistency, primer pocket fit, accuracy? 
An online vendor sells two species of Wolf small rifle primers: 'magnum' and standard.
Vendor says that both magnums and standard Wolf small rifle primers have the same quantity of priming compound. 
Only difference is the thickness of the primer cup; magnum is thicker and reccomended by vendor for floating-firing-pin semis. 
If you've used Wolf, was it a quality product, middling, or junk?

I have used the Wolf SR non-magnum primers.  No problems so far.  (Bought 2000, have sent about 200 downrange)

Note that I do not load with any degree of uptightedness, 4 MOA is fine with me.

SoM

Annealing 5.56 casings: 
From what I've read on this topic, most common annealing method uses torche(s) to directly heat case necks.  What you want to do is to anneal the case neck and shoulder, but not the case body or head.  Body and head must remain hard to adequately cope with case pressure upon firing the loaded cartridge.   
Some manufacturers of 5.56 (S&B and PMP for example) do not anneal their 223 cartridges.  At any rate, there is no coloration of the neck area to indicate annealing.   
So, having large amounts of once fired 223 brass, which haven't been annealed, I'd like to anneal them and extend their useful life. 
Instead of a torch, I'd like to use a heated die to conduct heat to the neck and shoulder. 
Suppose you could use a heated die to conduct heat to the casing neck and shoulder.  The die temperature would be easily controllable to within +/- 5 °F.  And using a stopwatch, you can control the time the casing spends inside the heated die. 
So... using a heated die:
  -Is there any reason not to use a heated die to anneal casings?  The neck and shoulder will be inside the die, while the body and head will be outside the die. 
  -What temperature does the case neck and shoulder need to reach, and how long does it spend at that temperature to become annealed?
  -What does a properly annealed casing look like in terms of coloration?
  -Is it necessary to water quench the casings after annealing?  Why or why not?
  -People who anneal casings- how easy is it to anneal the case body and head, the parts which must remain hard?
  -Also, do you want to anneal prior to full length resizing, or after? 
Thanks if anybody has any experience here.

     

I thought the necks were annealed to keep the metal soft, not hard.  Firing, resizing, etc. makes the brass harder, I've always read.

I've only used a torch (propane) and I think I did it wrong, so what do I know.

I will say that I've reloaded some .223 brass (many years ago) up to 4 or 5 times and never had one split, but these were hunting rounds, loaded for accuracy, not velocity, and fired in a bolt action rifle.

Nickle will have a pretty good idea, when he gets back on the forum to reply.

Interesting article on this you may wish to check out until you hear from Nickle:

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Five rounds on left are not annealed, five on right have been annealed.  S&B brass.  Had a few neck splits out of entire case with S&B factory ammo after initial firing. 
[attachment=1]



Unfired PMP 223 ammo did not have the neck area color change indicating annealing.  Photo below shows once-fired PMP 223 brass that was resized, trimmed, tumbled, then annealed.  Took 90 minutes to anneal approx. 1000 casings.
[attachment=2]

Okay, this is what I do and it has worked for me, but be careful and do this at your own risk.

First, you don't want to "anneal" the case head or body since you're inviting a split case at the minimum and a blown-out head at worst.

What I do is use a MAPP torch instead of propane, just putting the case mouth in the flame, rotating the whole time. Since the MAPP flame is hotter, it gets the neck and mouth up to temp quicker and spends less time in the flame. That's important since brass is an excellent conductor of heat and the longer the flame is on, the hotter the case head is going to get by conduction.

What temp do you need to get up to? You get different answers to this, but all you need is to get the brass just above the "critical point" where it will go soft. Visually, that's just about when it starts to glow red or a bit before. You don't need glowing red hot. I usually keep the flame on until it just glows red and that's it. Once it's there, you don't need to hold it there. My high-tech setup is a pair of pliers to gently grip the head and I rotate it by hand through the flame. Probably not as consistent as some sort of machine and it's definitely time-consuming. I anneal as the last step in case prep before priming, so after sizing, trimming, etc. The neck or mouth usually won't crack on sizing alone, but the expansion from bullet seating is what's going to do it (or expansion of the neck on firing more likely). Some makers don't anneal because they don't figure on you reloading, so case life isn't a big deal to them. I don't quench since you'll end up making the brass as hard as it was before if you hit it with water when it's at the critical point. The whole thing about the pan of water was just to keep the case head from getting too hot, which you can avoid by not overheating it in the first place. I believe Nickle's professional setup uses a belt-fed apparatus and he doesn't quench. The color you want is what you see in the picture of the SB brass there. If you use a MAPP torch, then keep the case well away from the core of the flame since it'll soot the case (just a visual issue) but you run the risk of getting it too hot more easily.

The only thing with the heated die I think is the conduction issue. You might have to keep the case mouth in the die for quite a while to get it to critical temp and the conduction of brass might mean the head/body gets too hot. It would work, but it would probably be slower than the flame. It literally takes only about 5 seconds/case for me when I anneal 5.56 brass with the MAPP (which does add up for hundreds of cases). I've never had a case failure from this annealing method, but I'm pretty ruthless when it comes to culling suspect brass since it's my face up there next to 50,000 PSI.


I check to see if the case is soft by a highly-scientific tool called my thumb. If I can dent the case mouth with a little pressure of the thumbnail, it's good. The dent'll iron out with the bullet seating or you can just run it til it hits the expander ball in the sizing die. Obviously, I don't do this with every case, but I just spot check some at random when I'm done.

Setting up the process, temperature sensors fixed to the body and head of test brass: even with a dwell time of 60 seconds at die temp 740 °F the casing body and head were less than 500 °F.  People shoot for 650°F as the critical annealing temp, but also they use direct flame not a fixed temperature die.   Flame approach imparts huge amount of heat fast, whereas die imparts minimal amount of heat to get job done over a tolerably longer time.  Anyhow, last step will be shooting the assembled cartridges and inspecting the fired brass.       
Dwell time of 30 seconds, the tool heats six casings at a time with a max throughput at that rate of 12 per minute or 720 casings per hour.  Resulting stuff looks like factory ammo.  Now to see how well the casings perform upon firing. 

Sounds like an interesting setup. Let us know how it goes.

ALL manufacturers anneal. Most just polish the brass after, and that removes the coloring. It is done to soften the neck and shoulder, to avoid cracking, and it's done numerous times during case forming.

OK, we use a propane rig at the shop, running the cases down a belt. Yeah, it's set up for production work, and is far more than you need.

Several ways to do it.

I recommend propane or MAPP gas. I haven't used MAPP for it, but it still should work well.

I suggest avoiding that die system. Too much hassle for my taste.

You can stand the brass up in a pan with a little water, and heat the necks until they disolor with a torch.

You can use the method Lab Rat uses, and that will work.

Do NOT quench the brass in water after. Some sources of info tell you to do that, and guess what? It actually will harden the brass.

Sometime, I'm going to have to post a picture of that annealer rig we use.

For the mechanically/technically inclined:
Heated die setup can be built with, at a minimum, a home drill press and a set of standard drills.
You can buy new heating controllers here
http://www.watlow.com/
or better yet improvise/scrounge your own from obsolete machinery.  Such things are discarded by manufacturing plants from time to time, even though they still work. 
To make an electronic annealer, you need:
  A die capable of withstanding 800°F and of suitable size to receive heat from the heat source. 
  Heating system: Heating rods, controller & temperature sensor system
  Pliers to retrieve the annealed casing form the die
  Stopwatch to control how long the casing is in the die
  Water bucket for quenching (optional)  I don't believe water quenching imparts significant hardness to the brass, but am still investigating this.
(I have subsequently spoken with a metallurgist on this point.  As far as brass is concerned, once you take it to the annealing temperature, the brass remains annealed regardless of whether you water quench it or not.  Annealed condition endures independently of the rate of cooling to room temp.  The only way a reloader is going to harden annealed brass again will be through the familiar work hardening cycle- brass expanded by propellant firing followed by compression through a resizing die.)   

What the electronic system does is heat up the die to a precise temperature, and maintain that temperature.
You have to develop process/parameters that work for your brass and system.  In my case, I use 750°F and a 30 second/cartridge cycle time, running six cartridges at a time, 12 per minute.  The cartridge neck neck and distal shoulder are slip fit/adjacent to the die during heating.  Your process must heat the neck and shoulder to annealing threshold, yet keep the body and head below annealing threshold.





 

Now you've got me thinking!  I'm mechanically inclined but, not necessarily technically up to speed for this project.  I do not really care for the torch work (as I'm doing them one at a time)  I like what you have there. Could it be done as a larger unit set up to tilt, dropping out the annealed brass?  Thinking production

Sure, automation can increase the throughput and offer a manually loaded, automatically unloaded procedure.  The more capability, usually the more the system costs.  I chose a minimal $ setup made from available waste materials and components, and also to prove out the concept.  I find the resulting brass and throughput rate are OK for a garage reloading operation with the 6-up manual load/unload configuration.     

Quick question about sorting brass by head stamp.  How important is that?

I've developed my load using LC brass.  This weekend I aquired approx 500 rds of once fired brass, mostly Remington, some Winchester.

Do I need to develop loads for each head stamp?

The thickness may vary some.

You'll find more potential difference between military and commercial than between brands.

Quote from: usafe7ret on November 12, 2008, 01:50:19 PM
Quick question about sorting brass by head stamp.  How important is that?

I've developed my load using LC brass.  This weekend I aquired approx 500 rds of once fired brass, mostly Remington, some Winchester.

Do I need to develop loads for each head stamp?

Winchester and Lake City in 5.56 are almost interchangeable and you should be able to use the same load data.

I would weigh the Remington as a comparison.  You may need to adjust your load slightly.

Should you come across some Federal (FC headstamp) you will need reduce your load.

Thanks Brothers, I'm off to the reloading bench!!

Natchez still has the CCI#41s in stock.

I've used a Forster case trimmer for years (mostly .308 and 30.06) but I'm about to start loading lots of .223 (in the past it was just a few rounds for groundhogs).  I have the pilot for the Forster (when I find that darn baby food jar of parts for it) but meanwhile bought one of those Lee case trimmers.  The Lee can be used by hand or used with a drill. 

It seems neat and easy up front but I ran into two issues Sunday.

The first was some surplus military cases that had a smaller than normal flash hole.  The pilot that sets the case length will not will not fit completely into the flash hole so those cases don't get trimmed at all.

The second was some cases that evidently have a thinner than usual "web" in the base of the case.  While trimming I noticed that the necks were getting shorter than "usual".  Since the pilot should bottom out on the inside of the case any difference in case length is due to varying thickness of the web in the base of the case.

Looks like the Lee trimmer is okay for "cleaning" cases by spinning them with the drill while holding a wad of fine steel wool on the case, but for trimming it will not give you consistent case length (if there's in nonuniformity in the cases) like the Forster style case trimmer.


The reason case length/neck length is importan -

if the case is too long it can result in higher pressures when the bolt chambers the round and jambs the mouth of the case into the end of the chamber.

if the necks are different lengths the tension on the bullet will be different (possibly a minor issue for accuracy but more important to make sure the bullet doesn't get jamned back into the case or fall out/bend the case neck/bullet during feeding.

Getting ready to order some 77gr SMK bullets but I see they come with and without a cannelure.  Any reason to get one over the other?  They will be used to feed an AR.

Quote from: Aromatic on October 02, 2009, 06:53:52 PM
Getting ready to order some 77gr SMK bullets but I see they come with and without a cannelure.  Any reason to get one over the other?  They will be used to feed an AR.

Cannelure is used to get a good solid crimp. No Cannelure, you can still crimp, but would not be recommended for full auto rifles since there is a lot of vibration and what not (they don't want the bullet falling out of the casing or being pushed in with these full auotos).

Now, be sure to do your homework with the 77gr for your AR. They will end up being too long to fit into your AR magazine. If you are not planning on using the mag, and are feeding them in one at a time, there is no problem. And in that case you do not really need a cannelure either.

There is a limit to the weight you can go before they start making the bullets too long to fit in a magazine. I seem to recall 70gr. Maybe someone will correct me if I am wrong.


For plinking and all around SHTF ammo, it is probably best to get cannelure, that way, even when the ammo is just being transported, the bullet wont push in or fall out (though a crimp on a non-cannelure should suffice for this).

QuoteThey will end up being too long to fit into your AR magazine.

Hmm, that would be a problem.  I thought 77 gr bullets were the standard for 1:7 AR's?

Your best choice should be 69 gr Sierra's.

If you don't crimp them, you still should be fine.

Of course, Midway is out of the 69 gr.   :'(

So when people speak of 77 grain bullets and AR's they are single loading each round...?

69's, 75 Hornady BTHP, and Sierra 77's can all be loaded to magazine length. Hornady 75 AMAX and all the 80 grain bullets should be loaded long, not magazine length. Mag length is 2.250 in.

I thought the discussion on annealing to be fascinating. I have never annealed a case. I get somewhere around 15 loadings out of a case before I get a split neck. I have a batch of 3000 cases that I load every winter for the upcoming highpower season. Every year I get 10 or 15 split necks. They are discarded of course. All of my brass is mixed headstamp. LC (various years) WCC, Winchester, Remington, and others. I don't use Federal brass, too soft.

For the 600 yards line, I weigh brass so all the brass for that yard line weighs the same. I seem to get lots of brass either 92 grains or 92.5 grains, so I have two boxes of brass to load my 80's into. I have found, that unlike the 308, commercial 223 brass is heavier than LC 223 brass.

The rest of the brass weighs all over the place from 88 grains to 98 grains. It is all loaded, disregarding weight and head stamp, to get 2950 fps with 69's and 2750 fps with the 75 BTHP. Because the brass varies in weight, velocities are all over the place, but it doesn't matter at 200 and 300 yards because the bullet is not arcing in like it does at 500 plus yards. And it certainly doesn't matter at 25 meters. I use the maximum charge of RE15 listed in the Sierra reloading manual.

There are two lengths you need to eyeball.

You obviously can't seat a bullet so far out that it won't fit into and feed out of the magazine - if you intend to use a magazine.

The second length you need to pay attention to is whether or not the cartridge will chamber without the bullet "ramming" into the lands of the riflleling in the barrel. 

Every rifle is a little different than the next one.  Your "long" cartridges may be short enough to feed from the mag, but so long that the bullet contacts the lands when the  bullet chambers - that is also "bad".  Most reloading manuals will tell you that if the bullet contacts the lands when chambered it will drive up the chamber pressure when the powder ignites.

The bullet should be close, but not touching.  You can check by seating a bullet "long" and then chambering it and then ejecting it to look for marks on the bullet from the lands.  If the bullet touched the lands it'll usually leave marks.  If it touched, seat the bullet a little deeper, polish the marks away with some 0000 steel wool and chamber it again.  Repeat till you don't have the bullet contacting the lands, seat it a tad deeper (you want it close but not touching) and measure it.

The best of both worlds is it "almost" touches the lands and still fits/feeds from the magazine.

The heavier a bullet is, the longer it is for that caliber so the deeper in the case it has to be seated to feed/chamber, so the bullet "robs" the case of powder capacity and/or volume which also drives up the pressure - possibly to the point of robbing you of velocity depending on the powder you use.  That's what happens in the .308 when you go heavier than 180 grain on bullets.

What you are considering/looking at takes time, patience, investigation, thought and recording of what you learn - but you should be rewarded with reloads more accurate than anything you can buy for your rifle once you find the bullet, primer, powder and cartridge overall length that your rifle "likes".

Have fun, learn some stuff, and be careful.

Quote from: Aromatic on October 02, 2009, 07:28:59 PM
Of course, Midway is out of the 69 gr.   :'(

So when people speak of 77 grain bullets and AR's they are single loading each round...?

Natchez has 69gr. I ordered some yesterday.

Wideners has the ss109s in stock!

I'm loading Hornady 75 gr BTHP at book OL they just fit the mag.  Very accurate in my 1:7 twist.

What is the ideal trim length?  All 4 of my manuals show 1.760 but I have read online that 1.750 is better for reliability.

Also, what type of variation is acceptable in case length?  +/-.001, .0005?

I measure each case every time I reload it and trim once they reach 1.760. I trim them to 1.755 and my variance is =/- .001.

My reloads are for varmint hunting and I use 26.8 gr Varget with a 55 gr Varmint Nightmare Extreme bullet. Overall length is 2.250. I have used SR primers from CCI, Magtech, Federal and Wolf with these and have noticed no difference in accuracy.

With my Ruger M77 Hawkeye, which is scoped, I make a clover leaf at 100 yards. In my AR, stock GI open sights, I shoot a 2 MOA group. These have even proven very accurate and reliable at 500 yards in both rifles. I have also used them in Dinky Dao's buddy Elvis (XCR) at Gibsonburg. Until trying this load I never thought a 55gr bullet would be reliable at 500 yards.

Case length spec is 1.760" -.020
Chamber spec is 1.772" +.015

I just went and trimmed some cases to check, using a Lee trimmer and case length guage.  Shellholder chucked in a drill.

10 cases, shortest miked 1.749", longest was 1.759".  Distribution appeared normal. 

Also checked some 7.62x51 I had trimmed this morning with same equipment, trim lengths fell within a range of 1.910" to 2.000".  I attribute this to variations of technique on my part, I hate case trimming and just want to get it over with...

My objectives in reloading is to have safe, 4 MOA ammo with trajectory difference from milsurp of no more than 1 MOA at 500 yards, that will chamber in any rifle in the caliber.  These case length tolerances work for those objectives.  If I were a benchrest shooter they would be unacceptable.

SoM

(Edited for typo)

Thanks for the info.  Like SOM my obejctive is not match ammo, just stuff that will feed and cycle in all .223/5.56 rifles.  I set my trimmer up to 1.750".

So I just got done doing a work up  with 69gr SMK bullets and found 2-sweet spots that seem to work well out of my AR. At 22.2 gr and 24.2gr TAC powder the groups at 100yds are the tightest. With 24.2gr the group is slightly larger but that could just be me. So I was looking for some input on which load I should use. Given they are the same , except the velocity. At 22.2gr, the velocity is around 2600fps. At 24.2 it is around 2900.

Is it better to go for the higher velocity. I would be using these for all around shooting at 25 to 400yds.

The 2900fps load will work far better that the slower one at 400 yards. For the 69 grain bullet, 2900 fps is the lowest velocity that you are looking for. I have seen them shoot well under 1 moa in a 8 inch twist barrel at 300 yards.

For 25 meters, it doesn't matter. Cartridge case length or type, powder charge, bullet type or weight, none of this really matters unless you are going to actually shoot at 500 yards. And even then, there is no reasonable combination of components that would exceed 4 moa.

I hope we aren't getting too wrapped up in highpower competition concerns here at Appleseed Central. I am a Master class highpower competitor that would shoot into 1 inch squares all day long with various "junk" highpower loads.

Developing shooting skills are far more important than agonizing over the ammo. IMO

I received some 77gr SMK and Mil Spec 62 gr FMJSCBT from Widener's.  I picked the 77 gr SMK for my first attempt at assembling ammo because there is more data available for them.  New Remington brass with CCI #41 primers.  I used Reloader-15 and made 20 rounds each with each charge of 23.0gr, 23.5gr, and 24.0gr.  I noticed with the 23.5 and 24.0 charges there was a crunching sound when seating the bullet.  Is this normal?

Also, what is the abbreviation for Reloader-15?  I have seen RX-15, RE-15, RL-15 and assumed these were all the same powder.

Quote from: Aromatic on February 14, 2010, 03:11:42 PM
I received some 77gr SMK and Mil Spec 62 gr FMJSCBT from Widener's.  I picked the 77 gr SMK for my first attempt at assembling ammo because there is more data available for them.  New Remington brass with CCI #41 primers.  I used Reloader-15 and made 20 rounds each with each charge of 23.0gr, 23.5gr, and 24.0gr.  I noticed with the 23.5 and 24.0 charges there was a crunching sound when seating the bullet.  Is this normal?

Also, what is the abbreviation for Reloader-15?  I have seen RX-15, RE-15, RL-15 and assumed these were all the same powder.

Aromatic. That crunching sound is the powder being compressed. The 77 SMK is about the longest bullet that can
be lenghted to fit in an AR 15 magizine. I use 24gr of Reloader 15, Federal GM205M primer, Winchester brass.
C.O.L. 2.26" just enough to fit into a AR mag, with a f.p.s. of 2648 out of a 20" 1 in 7 twist barrel. I have
excellent results with this in my particular rifle.

The 77gr SMK with 24.0 gr Reloader 15 shot very well at 100 m.

What is a good load for the 62 gr FMJSCBT?  I have Reloader 15, BL C(2), and 4895 on hand.  This will be used for loaner ammo/rifle use on the actual distance AQT.

Hello all, I hope you can explain to me whats going on here...

I've recently (about a month or two ago) started reloading for my AR-15. Its an M-4 style rifle, with a 16" 1:9 twist barrel.

I tried loading up some test loads, using 1x fired Lake City '08 cases, H335 powder, 62 gr SS109 surplus projectiles, and Wolf Small Rifle primers. While the velocities and Standard Deviation looked to be right where they should be, group size was less than spectacular, with no 5rnd groups less than 5" at 100 yards.

All cases were sized to proper specs on an RCBS X-Die, then trimmed to a length of 1.747" +- .001" on a Giraud case trimmer.
The SS109 proj. were seated to the cannelure, and a modest crimp added via a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
The only variable changed was the powder charge, and these were all hand-measured for consistencies sake.

Here is the velocity info/Std deviation for my test groups today:
(20 rounds fired per test group, barrel cleaned between each, with a 5 round fouler group fired prior to 'record')
24.8gr: High: 2867 Low: 2807 AVG: 2841 SD: 23.96
24.9gr: High: 2873 Low: 2824 AVG: 2848 SD: 13.15
25.0gr: High: 2886 Low: 2824 AVG: 2863 SD: 19
25.1gr: High: 2892 Low: 2842 AVG: 2864 SD: 15.25
25.2gr: High: 2886 Low: 2842 AVG: 2864 SD: 12.37
25.3gr: High: 2911 Low: 2867 AVG: 2889 SD: 13.64

As you can see, groups 24.9, 25.2, and 25.3 should have been the best performers of the day, according to SD, but NONE of these produced what I consider to be a discernible group at a mere 100 yards.

One of the loading manuals that I am using calls for a 'magnum' primer when using H335 for 62-69gr bullets, though the other manuals I have do not. I have read that most people use a magnum primer for their .223 loads, no matter the powder/bullet combo... My big question is this: Would changing the primer to a "magnum" primer have a noticeable effect on the group size, if all other variables remained the same? Or do I just suck that badly at reloading?

FWIW, prior to doing this test, I fired 5 Lake City M855 rounds out of the same rifle, and put up a 1.2" group at 100yds, with one called flier.

I've never heard of using magnum primers in a .223 round. I've been loading SS109 in LC brass with a Winchester
WSR primer and 24.9gr of Varget. They average 3020fps and about a 1.5" group at 100 yds. I've never been real
happy with the grouping but everything else I try seems to make it worse. Makes me wonder if thats the best it
gets. Necede.

Quote from: ItsanSKS on March 18, 2010, 03:50:44 PM
Hello all, I hope you can explain to me whats going on here...


All cases were sized to proper specs on an RCBS X-Die, then trimmed to a length of 1.747" +- .001" on a Giraud case trimmer.
The SS109 proj. were seated to the cannelure, and a modest crimp added via a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
The only variable changed was the powder charge, and these were all hand-measured for consistencies sake.

Check your crimp die.  The Lee factory crimp die works off of a collet; pull a bullet from a crimped case and mic the dia to see if you have over swaged the neck into the bullet. For mass reloading consistency the crimp die that came with your die set can't be beat. The only thing that comes into play then is the consistency of trim length. Use just enough crimp to get the job done and reset the crimp die when the cases stretch.  The Lee die works best with concentric turned necks and only enough pressure to hold the bullet in place.  I use the Lee for match ammo but I spend much more time prepping cases than shooting at that point. 

1. is that the 62 grain military bullet with the steel penetrator?  If so they are far from the best choice for small groups.  Why are the "surplus"?
2. SD in velocity doesn't always mean small groups.  I have a rifle that seems to really like that powder with 45 grain bullets, no idea what the SD is with them as I never check velocty, just group size
3. while I'm not convinced about the theory myself I've seen several posts where folks have stated that with some rifle, some bullets, some loads, etc., etc., etc., will require a certain distance from the muzzle for the bullet to "go to sleep", meaning the group size may be larger at some distance from the barrel than it is even FARTHER from the barrel - large groups at 100 yds. but smaller at 200 or 300, etc.  I have never seen this in any rifle or any load I've ever shot.  Seems counter to everything we "talk" but there are folks out there who say this can happen for some loads/rifles.  Have you shot yours farther out yet?  Do you have access to a range where you can shoot farther out?
4. Usually magnum primers are recommended for ball powders and cold temperatures.  Many years ago the reloading manuals stated that usually magnum primers result in higher pressure as compared to standard primers and often in less accurate grouping.
5. do you need to crimp?  so far I'm not crimping and not having issues

I've got a few hundred of these bullets, too. Yeah, surplus.  So let us know what you find out.

Good luck.

Hah!!  Sooner or later, something "bad" happens.  After all that talk on the .308 loading (recent thread) posts about Lee dies (me included) I just "found" a problem with all these .223 rounds I've been loading.

I got several sets of Lee dies a couple of years ago in my brothers reloading stuff.  I've used all of them in the last couple of years (.45 acp, 44 mag., .308 and 30.06, oh, and .223).  I resize brass, try it in my rifle (chamber a few rounds, measure one, right the number down and just repeat each time I reload that caliber/combination.

I recently built a new AR15 with some different features from my previous rifles and I've been itching to take it to the range but haven't been able to the last few weeks.  I got it out today, went outside, pointed it in a safe direction, made sure the safey was on, inserted a full magazine (to run through the rifle by hand to make sure it chambered/extracted/ejected okay and guess what?  The round that fit my 20" flat top just fine won't chamber in the new carbine. 

I got the calipers out and got to measuring.  I ran 10 pieces of .223 brass through the Lee resizing die and then through the old Pacific resiziing die.  I wiped the lube off and measured the diameters at 3 spots down the case.  The base is the same but the area right below the shoulder is 0.008" larger in diameter on the brass resized in the Lee die.  There is also a slight difference in the shoulder angle but I don't have anything to measure that with.

Looks like the 20" flat top has several years worth of ammo loaded up for it.  I just gotta get to the pile, pull out the .223 cans and label them so I know what rifle they're for.  When I resize them next time it'll be through the Pacific dies and I'll check them in all the rifles next time.  Of the rifles I checked today 3 had chromed chambers/bores and one did not.  The 20" flat top they chamber/extract from manually has a chrome chamber/bore.

Also gotta check and make sure the brass resized with the Pacific dies fits the other 20" barreled ARs.  I checked the new carbine and they worked fine in it.

Check, check, recheck and now I've got something new to check.

Its funny, those Lee dies are what my brother used to reload .223 ammo for his Savage .223 Rem. varmint rifle.  Hard to imagine AR15's having tighter chambers than a very accurate Savage varmint rifle.

Sorry to have missed your reply, Old Dog. 

The 62gr bullets are indeed the military spec ones, steel core 'penetrator' and all.  These were purchased from Wideners as factory over-runs. 

Retried the same loads with the Wolf 223 Mag. primer, and the groups shrank dramatically.  Best group was just over 1.25" at 100yds. 

While I may not 'need' a crimp, my idea was to mimic the factory M855 round as closely as possible, and the M855 is crimped... I tried the loads (wolf SR primer) without a crimp, and there was no noticeable change in group size. 

Testing for this load was put on hold for a while, as I recently traded the M4 16" upper for an Armalite A2 HBAR.  Had to break it in, and am now back to the drawing board as far as my loads go.  I'm just glad that I hadn't begun 'mass production' of a load yet, only to find it wasn't suited to the 20" rifle.

Your recent issues with the cases not fitting from one rifle to the next is something that I was worried about, too; I chose to buy a Case Gauge, and have set my dies accordingly- the case gauge mimics the minimum SAAMI specs, and if a case will 'chamber' in the case gauge, it should chamber in *any* rifle that has a chamber within SAAMI specs.  Sure, this doesn't allow for optimal head space for YOUR rifle, but it eliminates the problem of my ammo not chambering in any rifle chambered for .223

Well, a little more info (no measurements, just info).

I got about 30 pieces of brass out of the bag, lubed it on the pad, set up the Lee resizing die (.223 of course) and ran the 10 pieces through, wiped them off with a rag and started trying to chamber them.  Some wouldn't allow the bolt to move fully forward, on some I had to "beat" the charging handle to the rear to get the brass out, some (a few) chambered and extracted fine.

I put the Pacific die in the press and ran 10 pieces through it.  I thought I was going to rip the corner off the table.  Very had to resize the brass.  Wiped the cases off with a rag, starting running them through the chamber, every one chambered no problem, 3 had to be "tapped" out of the chamber by wacking the op rod.

I put the RCBS X-die in the press and ran 10 pieces through it.  They didn't take anywhere near the same force the Pacific dies required, more like the Lee dies or maybe even slightly easier.  All 10 pieces went through the chamber like you know what through a goose.

That much difference between the dies (Pacific is Hornady by the way, in case not everyone knows it), the amount of force required to make the shell holder "kiss" the bottom of the resizing die and chambering/extracting the brass.

Looks like the Lee dies go in the box with a coat of oil on them and will end up on the top shelf in the corner.  I'm going to use the RCBS dies to resize a few hundred pieces of .223 brass, then load them and shoot them in the new rifle to see how they do.

Oh, some rounds I'd loaded up for the vARmint rifle and never got around to shooting (15 with IMR4695, 15 with Varget and 15 with IMR 4198) went through the new rifle like you know what through a goose, too.  In the past I did not record info on the reloading equipment I used (I will in the future) as I only recorded the date, the primer used, the powder used and how many grains, the bullet used and how many grains, the caliber and the number of rounds loaded.

Old Dog,
You ever pop those rounds in a case gauge? I picked up a Wilson for my .223 and .308 and as long as they went in case gauge no problem, they went into a rifle with no problem.
MB

Don't have one in .223.  I bought one in either 30.06 or .308, popped a couple of pieces of brass in/out of it, went hmmmm, oiled it up and put it somewhere on a shelf or cabinet in the reloading shed.  I may get one for the .223 some day but what kind of guarantee would I have that one was any more consistent/in spec than the reloading dies or the rifle chambers.

3 sets of dies - two sets work for all but two of my rifles

are the dies "bad" or are those two rifles chambers just a little too tight???  I need to buy some factory ammo and try in them just for grins and giggles.

We'll see.

Quote

Brass needs to be trimmed before using an X Die. Did the bullets seat with the same pressure? Thinking uneven neck tension. I just started using magnum primers for ball powders, haven't documented results personally but read somewhere it worked. We will see...Wolfman

I'm a fairly new reloader and this has been an interesting thread seeing others observations. After reloading various pistol rounds getting started with .223 took some growing pains to feed 3 different AR's.

We bought RCBS Comp. dies and initialy didn't have any feeding problems. We shoot a good bit and have a few thousand rounds on hand so I didn't try to keep track of number of times individual cases had been reloaded. Then we started getting an occasional feed problem confirmed in more than one gun. If one FTF in one gun, it FTF in another.

This issue was finally traced down to bases weren't being sized well and after a few times being reloaded wouldn't chamber fully. I started making sure to set the sizing die down far enough to get a solid cam over on the rock chucker and bought a Wilson case gauge. Haven't had a problem since. Using the Wilson gauge I'll find maybe 1 out of 100 that's a bit tight and I lay them aside to run through a gun when time isn't critical and FTF isn't an issue. I've found even ones that won't fully fall into the case gauge still feed without issue.

Well, due to issues with that new AR I bought some Forster .223 Remington headspace gauges.

We sat down in the kitchen floor yesterday (my wife totally understands, either that or she's used to it after 33 years) and one by one, tore apart 4 AR15's.

Rifle#1 - A2 flat top with the HBAR contour barrel and chromed bolt/bolt carrier, chromed bore/chamber - the Go gauge allowed the bolt to close easily (as it should).  Next was the No Go gauges and the rifle chamber swalled it like it was another Go gauge.  The Field reject gauge did not allow the bolt to close.  This rifle has maybe 500 rounds through it.

Rifle#2 - 16" barrel, carbine/flat top with a "skinny" profile barrel that has chrome plated bore/chamber and BCM ion bond coated bolt/bolt carrier - The go gauge allowed the bolt to close easily.  Next was the No Go gauge and the bolt didn't even come close to closing.

Rifle#3 - another A2 flat top with the HBAR contour barrel that has a chrome plated bore/chamber with a standard parkerized bolt/bolt carrier  - the Go gauge allowed the bolt to close easily.  The bolt did not even come close to closing on the No Go gauge.

Rifle#4 - another A2 flat top with the HBAR contour barrel with a non-chrome bore/chamber and standard parkerized bolt/bolt carrier - the Go gauge allowed the bolt to close easily.  The bolt would not come anywhere near closing with the No Go gauge.

Three chome bore/chambered rifles with three different type of coated bolts/bolt carriers and one non- chromed bore/chambered rifle with a standard bolt/bolt carrier.  Three of them gave pretty much the same results while my 20" barreled rifle has a "sloppy" chamber. 

No wonder it was chewing through the reloads the new rifle wouldn't "eat".  Well, lots of .223 shooting to do to turn that brass around with the new RCBS X-dies.

Have a good one.  And remember.  No matter how much they look alike on the outside, they can be very different inside.

Well, got out there yesterday and started going through some of my ammo cans of .223 reloads.  About 1 in 4 (so far) will not drop into and back out of the headspace gauge/checker for reloads.  These were resized/reloaded with the Lee .223 dies.

I checked right at 20 of the rounds that would not fit properly into the headspace checker by inserting them in a magazine and running them through the "loose" chambered AR15.  No issues, they all fed/chambered slick as could be.  I'll have to shoot them through that rifle and then reload them with the RCBS dies.

I also noticed something else "funny".  The rounds I've reloaded so far fit just fine (small amount of clearance between the bullet tip and the front/inside of the magazine) in CProducts stainless steel magazines, PMags and D&H (??) aluminum magazines.  They are not fitting well in CProducts aluminum magazines.  This along with having 3 of the last 10 new ones fail to feed the last two rounds out of the magazine (first 28 feed fine, the last two give me nose up misfeed in 3 different AR's so I know its the magazine) is just more reason not to buy more CProducts aluminum 30 round magazines.

Have a good one.

Yep, we run RCBS Comp dies for ours with a Wilson case guage. Even rounds that won't quite sit flush in the case guage still chamber fine but they are rare, like 1 or 2 out of every hundred. I don't track how many times the cases have been loaded and I suspect those are ones that have been shot 5 or 6 times. I also suspect a small base die would cure that issue but since it hasn't caused any feed problems I haven't had the urge to fix what works. I'm very impressed with the accuracy potential these poodle guns are capable of with handloads worked up for each gun. Not so much with factory ammo. When some say you can take 3 or 4 identical guns and one might be a "shooter". (using factory ammo) In every situation I've seen, it's the ammo, not the gun....O.L.

Have had good luck reloading my AR for HP matches with Lee dies.  I do check each finished round with a case gauge.  I also limit my reloads to seven per case with the AR, but they aren't nearly as hard on brass as my '14 or M1 which I limit to five resizings.  

I shoot 77 gr SMK's or Nosler Custom Competition bullets across the course as follows:  COAL of 2.255" with XX.X gr of RE15 in Winchester brass with CCI #41 primers for my Fulton Armory 1 in 8 twist A2.  This load is capable of 1/2 MOA in my rifle - better than I can usually hold it.  :wb:

As always - this load is safe in my rifle, but may not be in yours.  Use this data at your own risk.  YMMV



Modified to remove the actual powder charge.

Quote from: Nickle on June 14, 2007, 04:08:17 PM
Put your questions and comments about the .223/5.56 in this thread.

Anyone have a load for the Barnes 62gr TSX?  These are the longer all-copper projectiles so I'm pretty sure I can't use normal 62gr FMJ recipes.

I've got H335 and BLC(2) on hand and want to stick with them for now.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/223RemingtonWeb.pdf

Of the Barnes web site, downnear the bottom of the page is a little bit of data for the 62 grain TSX bullet.

Looks like they used TAC and Varget

Quote from: Old Dog on February 16, 2011, 07:53:13 PM
http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/223RemingtonWeb.pdf

Of the Barnes web site, downnear the bottom of the page is a little bit of data for the 62 grain TSX bullet.

Looks like they used TAC and Varget

Yes, but I don't keep either of those powders.  I do have quite a bit of H3335 and BLC(2) though, was hoping someone had a load worked up for one of them.

For any powder you have, contact the manufacturer and give them your lot number and the bullet weight to see if they have something to start with.

I have settled on using either Ramshot TAC or Winchester 748 these days.

748 for the lighter weight bullets, TAC for long range/heavy bullets.

For "plinker" loads, the 748 with a 55gr FMJ Hornady or pull down bullet works fine.

For more long range work, TAC with either a 75 gr (Priv or Hornady) or 77gr (Sierra or Nosler) work quite well. Ramshot had load data that will "duplicate" the infamous Mk262 in NEW Lake City cases. Do be aware, this is HOT ammo and not for 223 chambered guns.

As others have stated, read all warning labels and start out with the "staring" loads.

Please don't damage your prize rifle by sending it to an early grave... support the 2A by taking care of your rifle.

I use 26gr of BLC2 for the 69 gr Hornaday HPBT moly bullets and 25 gr of the same for the 75 gr A-max moly.  Safe in my guns don't know about with yours.   With all things done properly you should be safe starting with 23 gr of the BLC and work up from there.

I've never reloaded before and plan on picking up some gear to reload ar-15 rounds.  I have a few buckets of brass saved.  I have a few questions:

1.  I've sorted them by anything that says 223rem and eveything else.  That usuall says lc something or other.  I'm assuming that the LC is 5.56 and anything .223rem is marked with that on it.  Is this a safe assumption?

2.  I'd like to load the 62gr bullet since I have a 1-9 barrel.  Can the .223Rem  shoot the 62gr bullet?

3. I've been told to get a single stage press to start with.  The Lee presses look reasonable.  I also have 30-06 I'd like to reload (lots of hxp brass).  Is this a good choice in presses?

I reload all .223 comercial and 5.56X45 surplus brass with my .223 Remington dies.  Most of my rifles do fine with Pacific or Lee .223 Remington dies.  I have one very picky (tight chamber) AR15 that seems to need the RCBS X dies.  So I guess I'll resize all my brass with the X dies.

The Lee press should be fine.  I've used one to resize a lot of .223 brass and even more pistol brass.

For the suplus 5.56 brass you may find some has a crimp around the primer.  You'll need something to remove that crimp in order to insert the new primers.  I use an RCBS primer pocket swager but lots of other folks recommend more expensive options.

You'll need a case trimmer at some point.  I have a nice rotary trimmer made by Forster but I find myself using the really cheap Lee case trimmer and a cordless drill.  However, the Lee setup seems to wear out after a few hundred pieces of brass.  I've been through three of them this year.  I'll probably go back to the Forster, it doesn't seem to every wear out.

I also like the Lee primer tool.  I've primed thousands of pieces of brass with mine and its still going strong.

Buy yourself at least two reloading manuals and even 3 or 4 is better.  There is always lots of info in one thats not in the others.  Different loading data, too.  Different brass, different ammo, different powders, etc.

Good luck with it.  Its one of my more enjoyable hobbies.  Now if I could just find a good place to shoot as much as I reload.

Hello,
I've searched this site and many others for info on 75gr and 77gr loads for AR platforms (and have tried many of them) yet can't get groups under 1 1/2 inches at 100 meters. Any general thoughts on things to look at and adjust?

 If you've tried reconmmended and listed accuracy loads, maybe look at the rifle. There are some AR's they are not MOA capable. If a 9" twist this cold be some of it.

What type of sighting system do you have? Low power/coarse reticle may be more difficult to fire well regularly.

Is there any perceptible 'wiggle' between the upper and lower receiver? There are drop in wedges to take up the play. I've seen others use shim stock between upper and lower to remove the play. This problem mostly on Colt manufacture rifles.

When you grasp the lower receiver, try to twist the buttstock around the buffer tube. If the screw is loose there could be play there. now take the screw out and remove the stock from the buffer tube. If an A2 buttstock you'll see a small square boss on the stock that fits into a square hole in the receiver. A small o ring or some silicone applied there and tightened down will remove the play in the assembled lower.

Just some ideas, quick to look at and maybe fix.

Quote from: TOMINCT on September 02, 2017, 05:58:54 PM
If you've tried reconmmended and listed accuracy loads, maybe look at the rifle. There are some AR's they are not MOA capable. If a 9" twist this cold be some of it.

What type of sighting system do you have? Low power/coarse reticle may be more difficult to fire well regularly.

Is there any perceptible 'wiggle' between the upper and lower receiver? There are drop in wedges to take up the play. I've seen others use shim stock between upper and lower to remove the play. This problem mostly on Colt manufacture rifles.

When you grasp the lower receiver, try to twist the buttstock around the buffer tube. If the screw is loose there could be play there. now take the screw out and remove the stock from the buffer tube. If an A2 buttstock you'll see a small square boss on the stock that fits into a square hole in the receiver. A small o ring or some silicone applied there and tightened down will remove the play in the assembled lower.

Just some ideas, quick to look at and maybe fix.

TOMINCT,

- This is a 1/8 twist Colt competition rifle.
- Optics are a simple Leupold VX II 2-7 power. It is on the low side for bench work.
- Upper and lower seem to be very tight compared to the A2 and M4's we used in the service, but maybe there is more wiggle than I picked up on?
- The adjustable stock to buffer tube is a decent fit but still has some slop. Buffer tube is tight. I do rest the toe of the stock on the rear bag and have questioned how solid this perch is. Maybe a one piece rest would be better?

What is most aggravating is not being able to determine if the problem is me, the rifle, or the load. Sure makes bolt guns more enjoyable to work up.

Thanks for your help. I will start at the basics again and try some of my previous loads.

Twist Rate and barrel length are important when selecting a heavier bullet.

Your setup seems perfectly fine for a 75 or 77 grain bullet.

What is your load?

I shoot SUB MOA with 77s out of my rifle. 

My load:
77 grain Sierra Match King
24.0 of RL-15
COAL 2.258"
Wolf Primed brass Or....CCI BR4 primer

I have read your equipment list, and it seems more than adequate to stabilize a 77 grain bullet.

Have you scored a Riflemans score on the AQT?

I would lean more to your position, than the ammo.

Do you have any friends that can shoot well?  Have them give it a try.  I have done that before on an "off day" (day I just wasn't feeling it)....and eliminated me.

Have you tried a lead sled?

Wiggle between upper and lower, they all have it.  I have not had accuracy suffer notably because of that.  Try an accuwedge if that concerns you.

Read this post as well:
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=52022.0

R/
Chris

IF you can eliminate as many variables in the system, (meaning you), and it still won't do better than 1.25 MOA at 100 M, then it is likely an equipment issue.

Likely a barrel issue.

How many rounds down the barrel?

How do you maintain the barrel?

Were it my rifle, and I eliminated all variables and still printing larger groups than I am used to I would....

Clean chamber
Using JB Bore Paste with Kroil and VFG pellets, remove most fouling per the JB instructions

Try it again.

If it is still showing large groups.  Time to replace that barrel.

If replacing barrel....highly recommend a match grade heavy barrel for the accuracy you seem to be looking for.

Is your barrel Free Floated?

If it is not....there may lie the reason for the larger groups. 

Lastly....this I just remembered.

I'm assuming your barrel is free floated, as you say it is a Colt Competition rifle.

I have a shooting partner, that is a High Master in NRA HP.  He was putting up some awful large groups at 600 yards.  Not at all like him to do that.

Guess what it was?

The FLOAT tube came loose.  It can and has happened.

That would cause an issue with accuracy.

Not sure if your rifle has a float tube, or....if it has a quad rail with free floating barrel nut. 

Float tube removal, typically requires a Ford wrench, and heat!  LOL

Couldn't believe my friends came loose...but that was the culprit.  Easy enough to check.

Remove handguards, and see if float tube can be loosened by hand.  Or...if a quad rail....remove it and see if barrel nut can be moved by hand.  If so..., tighten em....and try again.


R/
Chris

Messer,
Have you tried 200 meter groups? there are rare occasions where groups at two hundred pretty much the same as 100 meters.
Might be, a parallax issue, unlikely with the low power quality scope your using.
Might be, the bullet will settle into a more stable flight given a little more air rubbing on it.

I too have a Colt Match/Target. It is an HBAR, but it is not free floated. Like navybowhunter suggested, that could be part of the issue.
aj

This thread got a little old on me. Sorry for the delay. Thanks for all the input. I changed out the little Leupold for a big Leupold and groups fell together. 75gr ELD's on top of Varget are working very well. Thanks again for your help.

I'm getting into reloading and I'd like to get some advice from fellow Appleseeders. 

My immediate goal is to create a couple of long range rounds for my AR-platform rifle with a 20" 1:7 barrel using Sierra 77 gr bullets (#9377T).  The completed round should be able to load from the magazine

Questions:

• To crimp or not to crimp?  I've seen both recommendations in this thread, but it's been a while.  What is the current thinking?  If it matters, the die set I purchased from Redding includes a crimp die.
• Should brass which is less than 1.760" be trimmed?  Most of my brass is 1st firing (my rifle) Federal XM193.  After resizing, most cases are > 1.760".  This brass will definitely get trimmed to 1.750".  I have a limited amount of match-grade Hornady brass, also 1st firing in my rifle.  After resizing, I measured 10 cases; all but one was < 1.760" and that case measured 1.7605". 

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Jon.

I still don't crimp.
Greatest constancy will be if all brass is the same length. 1.750 is the number I use.

I'm no expert, but no crimp seems to be the norm for high power competitors.

Quote from: desert_diver on June 21, 2020, 07:29:49 PM
I'm getting into reloading and I'd like to get some advice from fellow Appleseeders. 

My immediate goal is to create a couple of long range rounds for my AR-platform rifle with a 20" 1:7 barrel using Sierra 77 gr bullets (#9377T).  The completed round should be able to load from the magazine

Questions:

• To crimp or not to crimp?  I've seen both recommendations in this thread, but it's been a while.  What is the current thinking?  If it matters, the die set I purchased from Redding includes a crimp die.
• Should brass which is less than 1.760" be trimmed?  Most of my brass is 1st firing (my rifle) Federal XM193.  After resizing, most cases are > 1.760".  This brass will definitely get trimmed to 1.750".  I have a limited amount of match-grade Hornady brass, also 1st firing in my rifle.  After resizing, I measured 10 cases; all but one was < 1.760" and that case measured 1.7605". 

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Jon.

I bought a Redding crimp die I'll mess with some day but the only reason to crimp (for me) is to prevent set back in TEOTWAKI ammo.  Since none of the pros crimp match ammo I'll follow their lead.

Consistent head space and keeping cases trimmed to 1.750 means all rounds have the same neck length which helps to keep neck tension/release the same.

If you have to measure brass to see if it needs trimmed you might as well spend that time putting it in the trimmer.  If it doesn't need trimmed it doesn't get touched but any long cases get trimmed.

Since the bullet loaded to magazine length is incredibly popular with high power shooters you'll be able to find a good load easily.

I like adding an inside neck sizing mandrel to my steps to set the neck ID identical on all the rounds for as consistent as possible neck tension.

On trim length since 1.760 is max case length you can be pushing an unsafe condition by leaving your cases just under that (assuming a long one could slip though) if your chamber has a short neck.  Better to follow standard practice and trim to 1.750.

Thanks for the advice!

I will definitely trim all my brass to 1.750". 

Jon