Hello all!
Just came across a very promising looking LTR candidate.
It is a reproduction rifle approximating the size, weight, features and function of the M1 Carbine, and is chambered in .22 LR.
http://www.legacysports.com/products/cit_m1.html (http://www.legacysports.com/products/cit_m1.html)
From what I understand, is manufactured by Chiappa, imported from Italy. It has the typical M1 style adjustible rear sight, and fixed front sight with wings. The included magazine (which looks to be appropriately sized) holds 10 rounds.
The MSRP for the Black Synthetic version is $331 - My local shop has it listed at $298.
MSRP for the Wood stock is $391 - sold at the same store for $378
A bit pricey for a .22 plinker (I don't modify mine... shooting as-is builds skill in the shooter, IMO), but for anyone out there who is looking for a true 'training' rifle to approximate it's bigger brother, this could definitely be a real steal. Given that .30 Carbine ammo is now around $0.34 - $0.55 a shot, this could definitely be an economical alternative. Cabela's around here runs sales on bulk .22 LR for around $0.03/rd, so the savings could add up fast.
I already have a 'seed-ready Marlin 795, and a rearsenaled '43 Inland M1 Carbine. I have fallen in love with the Carbine, and am seriously considering buying one of these .22's. I'm thinking of all the $$ I will save on ammo, while still training myself on the fit and finish of the Carbine.
Has anyone owned/seen/handled one of these? Any idea of their quality or reliability?
Very interested.
My friend took one of the wood ones to an AS last month.
He tried a hand full of ammo types but couldn't keep it grouping in the grey of the AQT stage2 using a prone, sling supported position.
He also had issues adjusting the rear sight.
I know him & his abilities well. The groups were not due to his lack of skill.
YMMV
Good info to know. First hand knowledge is always the best.
How did he like the rifle otherwise?
Other than it not performing well & being difficult to use. . . well it sure looked pretty ^-^
I hope the accuracy is better than the average M1 Carbine. I've yet to see one that could get a sniff of 4 MOA. If any of you that read this have access to an accurate Carbine, I think sharing what was done to accurize it would be an awesome thing to do.
Now, the M1 Carbine wasn't a replacement for a rifle, but more a replacement for a pistol, so certain troops would have more accuracy and range than a 1911A1, but not the bulk of the Garand. In that context, they're a good weapon.
There have been a number of M1 carbine type 22s over the years. Erma used to make a pretty good copy. Marlin had a similar model (99m1?) but it was not really a copy. I will have to look through some of my old Gun Digests and see what I can come up with.
Quote from: Nickle on January 11, 2012, 05:10:41 PM
I hope the accuracy is better than the average M1 Carbine. I've yet to see one that could get a sniff of 4 MOA. If any of you that read this have access to an accurate Carbine, I think sharing what was done to accurize it would be an awesome thing to do.
Now, the M1 Carbine wasn't a replacement for a rifle, but more a replacement for a pistol, so certain troops would have more accuracy and range than a 1911A1, but not the bulk of the Garand. In that context, they're a good weapon.
I've yet to see a M1 Carbine shooter who could shoot 4 moa. I'm sure the rifle is capable of it at 25m, however. I haven't shot 50rds through mine and the last time I had it out I got 6 moa(including called flyers). I was just messing around, it was twilight, and the rear sight was filled with lint. It surprised me, as I usually don't shoot that well from an unsupported position(no sling). When/if I get to some serious shooting with it, I'll give a more thorough report. By the way; no modifications have been done.
The CMP used to have a page on accurizing the M1 Carbine. It's no longer there but it can be found at the Internet Archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20101128153904/http://thecmp.org/pdfs/CMP_Carbine_Notes_2007.pdf (http://web.archive.org/web/20101128153904/http://thecmp.org/pdfs/CMP_Carbine_Notes_2007.pdf)
My own carbine is a 4 MOA shooter -- provided you ignore the occasional flier (about one in a dozen). It's a GI service grade, has the Type 3 barrel band and updated rear sight, original barrel with lots of rifling, and other than that I've done nothing to it. It's one of the better shooting carbines, so why mess with it.
So far I've never gotten more than about 175 on an AQT with it. Stage 1 and 2 are golden, 3 is OK, but I've never gotten a good Stage 4 out of it. If I shoot enough AQT's it will eventually produce a 210, but not with anything like consistency.
I also can't shoot it in prone worth a darn, not without contriving a proper front swivel and using a loop sling, as well as fitting a much stickier and longer butt pad. In practice I don't bother and just shoot Stage 3 / 4 in sitting. It fits me and shoots very well in sitting!
On the whole, the M1 Carbine is a great little rifle -- just ask Audie Murphy. But it's not so good if you need to reach out past 200 meters, or pick off something under about 6 MOA. It's a rifle intended for soldiers in supporting roles, and designed to be shot while running away from something! And that, it does VERY well. A precision rifle, however, it is not.
This is what I did. Tight groups, very consistant, looks good too. Put a timney trigger in also---sweet.
http://www.eabco.com/m1_carbine_ruger_1022_tribute.htm
~Two Wolves
There were complaints about the Chiappa AR .22 Upper Barrel rifling being rough and being inaccurate.
Seeing one in person might help
Thanks for all the responses.
My intention was to have a .22 rifle that approximates the look/feel of my 'real' M1 Carbine, for training purposes. Not just for myself, but for my Wife, whom I would like to (gently) introduce to shooting. If she could learn to use it, transition to my full M1 would be very easy.
However, It's sounding like the Ciappa M1 .22 replica is more novelty and headache than useful, so I likely won't be buying it.
Besides, for the price of one of those, I could buy and outfit two more Marlin 795s into LTR configuration... and there's absolutely NO question about the accuracy of those! My current 795 is a tack driver (which means...it's far more accurate than I am). Economics staring me in the face, it seems.
--
As to the question of the true M1 Carbine's accuracy... For me it was less a question of 'the best rifle for accuracy', than a case of simple economics. I could afford to buy exactly 1 centerfire rifle. So, I had to choose the best rifle for me. After months of reading, browsing (online and in person), etc, I settled on the M1 Carbine. It is my choice for many reasons.
1) Size - I am not a large person, so recoil is important. The M1 Carbine is a perfect fit for me (Elbow-to-trigger finger test). Weight is perfect, and I just love the feel of real wood in my hands.
2) Defense Potential - This is my 'bed gun' (I have no children, live out in the sticks). It is always within arm's reach in case it's needed. With a stock pouch and 2 extra GI mags, I do NOT feel under-armed. Any armchair generals that disagree can step up to the business end and make their case in person. Also, it's a rifle I am confident the Mrs could handle if she needed to. Very important to me.
3) Training - I subscribe to the 'train with what you use' mentality. I needed something I could handle and train with easily, yet still use for a variety of tasks. Varminting, plinking, redcoats, and even moderate sized game (possibly a Whitetail if I --reeeeally-- had to.)
4) Adjustable sights - My other rifles don't have windage-adjustable irons. Never again. Fully adjustable or bust.
5) History - There's no replacement for the real deal. The original PDW. Even though mine's not a collector...I wouldn't want one anyway. I want a true War Horse, even if it's been dressed up (forearm replaced with steel by previous owner). If I can't shoot it, and shoot it a lot, it's not worth buying. I haven't a need or want for any safe queens. I needed something I could utterly rely on, with absolute confidence. If it was good enough to use in battle, in all corners of the earth, it's good enough for my modest needs.
Also, thanks Rocket Man for the link to the CMP Carbine notes. I had read this while researching my longarm of choice, but had lost that link and could no longer find it. Kudos! 8)
There are stock kits to make the 10/22 look like a carbine. With all the mags and other things that are available for it, that probably is the way to go if you want a clone.
I should probably go ahead and address the 10/22 issue, since it's been mentioned a couple of times.
I really do not like the 10/22. I don't like the fit, I don't like the feel, and I certainly don't like the price. I'm also most defintely a Marlin man, and have never been disappointed with their products. I have absolutely no interest in a rifle that I "can add endless accessories to". I have no need to tinker.
Some may like or prefer the 10/22, but I'm not one of them. Consider it off limits in my book.
For others though, it definitely could be an option well worth considering! ;)
Quote from: ChestonU on February 09, 2012, 11:05:37 AM
I should probably go ahead and address the 10/22 issue, since it's been mentioned a couple of times.
I really do not like the 10/22. I don't like the fit, I don't like the feel, and I certainly don't like the price. I'm also most defintely a Marlin man, and have never been disappointed with their products. I have absolutely no interest in a rifle that I "can add endless accessories to". I have no need to tinker.
Some may like or prefer the 10/22, but I'm not one of them. Consider it off limits in my book.
For others though, it definitely could be an option well worth considering! ;)
Don't like the 10/22-Duly noted! :) ...however fit and feel of the 10/22 would change with the addition of a M1 Carbine stock. Price is a lot cheaper than some ready made carbine clone and the "can add endless accessories to" is what makes it a viable choice for a carbine clone. Key point is that the 10/22 carbine kit is available now.
With the recent popularity of the 795, maybe someone will come up with carbine kit for it.
That would be great, I think. With the way the action handles currently, it shouldn't be hard. But then again, who knows.
Mostly, I wondered how the current M1 clone stood up, and it seems it doesn't very well. As for the Carbine clones out there now (Auto-Ordnance), it seems the reviews of it's quality and reliability are mixed. Some people say they are great, others say there's problems. Maybe the issues have been worked out by now, who knows.
What I do know is that my 'War Baby' does just fabulous, so I guess I'll take that money and put it into buying more brass 'n bullets! Thanks for the input everyone.
Too bad someone doesn't make a 22 caliber conversion for the M1 Carbine. That would let us shoot our old guns cheaply.
Prepare to be disappointed.
If the Chiappa 1911 clone in .22LR is any indicator, pass on the new carbine until you can find on-line reviews regarding quality and accuracy.
I handled and shot the Chiappa pistol, nothing special, not in the same league as the German GSG 1911 .22. I shot that one as well. My Kimber conversion outshot them both.
Chiappa Q/C and accuracy have a looooong way to go.
Instructor pricing on the S&W M&P15-22 is $360, IIRC. Made in the USA, much more gun for the $$, and it will shoot a Riflemans' score.
Just my $0.02
K
Quote from: mac66 on February 12, 2012, 10:47:47 AM
Too bad someone doesn't make a 22 caliber conversion for the M1 Carbine. That would let us shoot our old guns cheaply.
Now THAT I would pay money for. I can't think it'd be that hard, if done correctly. However, it'd have to be a Barrel insert or something, because re-barreling a War baby Carbine is not a Snap-on type of operation. Maybe some kind of insert into the barrel/breech and matching Magazine insert would work... but who knows how safe that would be. I certainly wouldn't try it. On top of that, you'd have to re-spring the thing. Ultimately, to convert a War Baby to .22LR would proabably require almost rebuilding the gun. Worth it? Don't know, maybe if you have a beater, or if you get one of those Auto-Ordnance copies and don't mind wasting money.
IMO, the better option, is to find a more economical way to come up with .30 carbine ammo for better prices. I myself have learned to reload for my carbine... I just haven't had good luck with Cast Lead boolits (mine likes to smear, no matter how cool or hot I load it.) I'm probably going to try out Berry's plated bullets once the weather improves. I'll let you all know how that goes.
Currently, I have a local shop that will sell Aguila or Magtech .30 Carbine for about $19/50rd box, plus tax. Reloading is projected to cost me around $0.15/rd if I can get the brass to last 4 reloadings. That puts it cheaper than shooting my Marlin 783 .22 WMR, which costs around $.25/rd
Still a far cry from the $0.03/rd that Bulk Federal .22LR costs me when Cabellas puts it on sale, but hey... It's still way better than paying the $0.45/rd that most retail .30 Carbine costs around here (in everything but the Aquila/Magtech)
One reason for the price and lack of availability of the .30 Carbine ammo, IMO, is because of the huge number of M1 Carbines that are not being allowed to be repatriated from Korea, which has literally Hundreds of Thousands. They've publicly stated that they want to sell them to Americans (I think they have something like 600,000 of them if my research is correct). State Dept has that locked down tight. If they were opened up to the market, we could see a huge increase in demand for ammo, (price hike), followed by a huge increase in supply (competition to capitalize on the emerging market, price drop).
Alternatively, If someone would start making .30 Carbine for less... or even offers a good deal on new Brass (around $0.05/rd) then I think we'd be in business, and this whole .22LR conversion or clone business would be a moot point. A guy can dream, can't he? :)
Well, I'm with ya. I have little Winchester made in Oct of 44 that just cries out for attention. Ammo cost keeps it home all too often.
Well, I came across another used 10/22 at the local gun shop and "it followed me home" so I built my third LTR and couldn't resist putting it into a Taiwanese M1 carbine "legacy stock" that I bought from E. Arthur Brown with Tech Sights. It's a pretty sporty looking little gun, but appears to be limited to Hasty sling shooting with the reproduction sling on the side of the barrel band and through the stock slot with the oiler bottle. I haven't had the chance to shoot/sight it in yet, but am pleased with the results.
Quote from: ID_Hezekiah on February 16, 2012, 10:05:14 PM
Well, I came across another used 10/22 at the local gun shop and "it followed me home" so I built my third LTR and couldn't resist putting it into a Taiwanese M1 carbine "legacy stock" that I bought from E. Arthur Brown with Tech Sights. It's a pretty sporty looking little gun, but appears to be limited to Hasty sling shooting with the reproduction sling on the side of the barrel band and through the stock slot with the oiler bottle. I haven't had the chance to shoot/sight it in yet, but am pleased with the results.
Your 3rd LTR? ;D
Yep, 3rd LTR ::). I've been picking up good used 10/22s when they show up at the local gunshop and giving them Power Custom trigger/sear kits, sharp claw extractors, bolt releases and extended mag releases. Then they get sling swivels and sights. I've got one with Novak Spud sights, one with a Simmons 4 power 22 mag scope and the M1 Carbine clone with Tech Sights. I didn't count my "personal" 10/22 with the Clark bull barrel, Tech Sights and Hogue overmold stock in the count, but I suppose it's an LTR, too. ;) I guess I'm making most of my rifles into LTR clones of one type or another - I'm currently building an Argentine K98 Mauser in .30-06 into a scout rifle. Guess you could say I've "caught the bug" and I blame you and my first Appleseed, Richard! O0
Hezekiah---- I too built the m1 carbine kit from Brown. I've always used the hasty sling and so I wasn't interested in the loop. However, I've discovered that if you put the snap that's on that sling at the front, then you could do a loop sling easily by just removing the oiler. It works pretty neat except the fit is to tight. It could be relieved just a tad but I wouldn't want it loose enough to fall out on its own. BTW, I put the extended dummy mags on the stock magazines but they were toooo long for my liking. So I cut them down probably 2 inches. They work great. Enjoy~ Two Wolves
Thanks for the information, Two Wolves. I bought two of the mag extensions, too and immediatley realized they were really designed for Thompson replicas, not carbines. I have not installed them and was contemplating a cut-down also. The oiler and sling is really tight in the rear slot. I had to relieve it some just to get the sling into the stock. Like you, I would not like it loose but I never shot single-loop before Appleseed and I've shot Hasty for a long time and feel pretty comfortable just staying with it for this gun.
I have an Erma Werke/ Iver Johnson M1 Carbine in .22. It has Redfield sights, but also came with a scope.
My husband had to replace the charging rod, since it broke at an Appleseed on my birthday.
Apparently, they are still very popular in Europe. We could have bought the charging rod from a nice Englishman named Ian, but found on gunbroker instead.
It seems to be reasonably accurate. Any bad shooting is my fault, not the carbine's, I think. I really like it, and find that it fits me well. Now that it is back in service, I'm hoping that I can finally shoot rifleman using it.
I gave the wrong name for the sights. The Erme Werke has its own standard sight.
The Redfields are on my husband's Harrington Richardson .22 trainer.
I had an Erme but sold it to make a LTR. It shot ok but not up to RM standards. The biggest issue was the long mag would press against my support arm and torque the mag leading to FTE & FTF. The sights were up to the job but feeding issues kept it from performing under time pressure. Also only having one mag wasn't conducive to good AQT scores. I hated to give it up, but with limited resources, whatever I have has got to do the job.
Charlie