Shooting at an indoor range with a typical ledge at each Lane today....
When shooting supported I was leaning on the Ledge and trying to apply Prone/Seated techniques
Loop Sling
Left Leg Straight
Right Leg Bent
Tried to stay off of the points of my Elbows as much as I could.
Support arm under Rifle (support with bone, not muscle)
Support Hand relaxed and up against the Sling Swivel post.
Walk hips back to raise elevation and forward to lower elevation.
Shift hips to Aim
This stuff works :)
Any thing else I should of/could have been thinking about?
Quote from: Justsomedude on January 09, 2012, 09:17:48 PM
Shooting at an indoor range with a typical ledge at each Lane today....
When shooting supported I was leaning on the Ledge and trying to apply Prone/Seated techniques
Loop Sling
Left Leg Straight
Right Leg Bent
Tried to stay off of the points of my Elbows as much as I could.
Support arm under Rifle (support with bone, not muscle)
Support Hand relaxed and up against the Sling Swivel post.
Walk hips back to raise elevation and forward to lower elevation.
Shift hips to Aim
This stuff works :)
Any thing else I should of/could have been thinking about?
How about shooting in standing position and not leaning?
I think we cover that, but we do ignore all forms of bench rest.
2cl
Quote from: 2 clicks low on January 09, 2012, 10:49:19 PM
How about shooting in standing position and not leaning?
I think we cover that, but we do ignore all forms of bench rest.
2cl
I always assumed this was for practical reasons, not because the program somehow "looks down" on using a rest of some sort. That seems ridiculous. Any position which supports the forward arm is better than standing unsupported. That's why the standing targets are the biggest.
I can assure you, the program doesn't "look down" on benchrest. We do get shooters to quit using the bench, and start learning "position" shooting.
Some folks here even know I used to be a Benchrest competitor, both IBS and before that NBRSA.
But, you won't have a bench when you're in the field. We teach not using a rest, as once you learn to shoot without one, then using one really increases your scores.
Now, all bets are off if the shooter is "physically disadvantaged" (what some folks call disabled). Those shooters do what they have to, we live with it. Even I have some problems physically. Don't do transitions any more, due to arthritis. My sitting position is pretty ugly. But, I still shoot.
Quote from: aragornelessar86 on January 10, 2012, 03:38:07 PM
Quote from: 2 clicks low on January 09, 2012, 10:49:19 PM
How about shooting in standing position and not leaning?
I think we cover that, but we do ignore all forms of bench rest.
2cl
I always assumed this was for practical reasons, not because the program somehow "looks down" on using a rest of some sort. That seems ridiculous. Any position which supports the forward arm is better than standing unsupported. That's why the standing targets are the biggest.
Sorry aragornelessar86, did not mean to offend you.
2cl
That's why the standing targets are the biggest.
[/quote]
The Standing Targets are the biggest because they are the CLOSEST.
They are all standing targets. O0 Sitting and prone are a crutch.
I was supported because I was shooting my Tech Sights for the first time.
I could still only manage a 1.25" 10 shot group from 50' though.
Too much squirming around.
My pattern was 2 or 3 pinwheels, 3 or 4 wandering around and then a couple where I got totally distracted or blinked or shot two rounds during the same Breath.
Standing with a Hasty Sling was the same but with 2".
I'm a solid 12MOA shooter when standing :)
P.S.
That was my first time shooting with a sling too.
I'll improve
I've wondered if Morgan's Rifleman had to hit the shingle from off-hand. Anyone know?
Quote from: Justin on January 10, 2012, 10:21:41 PM
They are all standing targets. O0 Sitting and prone are a crutch.
My google-fu is weak, but I wold really like to know that as well.
floydf, yes they were fired offhand from a cold bore. One man, step up, one shot, you're in the Company, or you are going home. The Company was filled in very short order and was awarded a March of some 600 miles to join the Continental Army in New England. Some trophy, huh?
Quote from: 2 clicks low on January 10, 2012, 04:54:04 PM
Sorry aragornelessar86, did not mean to offend you.
2cl
No, no! No offense here. I just don't see why people have a problem with what the OP did. It seems that he behaved as a true rifleman ought and improvised as much shooting support as possible given his circumstances. Granted you don't always or maybe even often have such supports, but I'll bet that between tree branches, stone walls and rail fences the riflemen of April 19th had a lot more support to shoot from than we do at an AS event. In fact, I'm pretty sure that one of the DOM used his horse in the exact manner described by the OP. Let's don't get so hung up on the three positions we teach that we start thinking those are the only acceptable ways to shoot.
Quote from: aragornelessar86 on January 12, 2012, 03:48:28 PM
Quote from: 2 clicks low on January 10, 2012, 04:54:04 PM
Sorry aragornelessar86, did not mean to offend you.
2cl
No, no! No offense here. I just don't see why people have a problem with what the OP did. It seems that he behaved as a true rifleman ought and improvised as much shooting support as possible given his circumstances. Granted you don't always or maybe even often have such supports, but I'll bet that between tree branches, stone walls and rail fences the riflemen of April 19th had a lot more support to shoot from than we do at an AS event. In fact, I'm pretty sure that one of the DOM used his horse in the exact manner described by the OP. Let's don't get so hung up on the three positions we teach that we start thinking those are the only acceptable ways to shoot.
It could be that AS is dedicated to teaching the HISTORY of that day, not the shooting of that day..... otherwise everyone would be shooting muzzle-loaders instead of modern firearms at AS events.
The marksmanship portion of an AS is based on the positions taught by the army, and the AQT, up through WWII... The fundamentals, nothing more. The 'test' (the AQT) has specific requirements....and utilizing a bench or support doesn't meet those requirements.
My favorite is the supine position,
on your back using your toes, as forward support!
These friendly shooting competitions,
took place almost every day in almost every town,
usually just outside the local Tavern! :--- :~
Quote from: JustJeff on January 12, 2012, 04:25:19 PM
It could be that AS is dedicated to teaching the HISTORY of that day, not the shooting of that day..... otherwise everyone would be shooting muzzle-loaders instead of modern firearms at AS events.
The marksmanship portion of an AS is based on the positions taught by the army, and the AQT, up through WWII... The fundamentals, nothing more. The 'test' (the AQT) has specific requirements....and utilizing a bench or support doesn't meet those requirements.
Still no reason to crack on the OP for applying the basics of steady hold and NPOI to a new shooting position. Seems to me like those are the real meat of the shooting curriculum. Standing, sitting and prone are just good, systematized ways to teach those lessons. I just feel like Justsomedude came in here and wanted to share his excitement at having been able to apply his AS lessons in a new way, and all anyone was able to do was crack on him for not shooting from one of the three "high holy" positions. Shame on us if that's what we've become as a program. I know it's not, but this thread sure makes it look that way.
Quote from: Justin on January 10, 2012, 10:21:41 PM
They are all standing targets. O0 Sitting and prone are a crutch.
Lol! I hope you're joking.
+1
Quote from: Justin on January 10, 2012, 10:21:41 PM
They are all standing targets. O0 Sitting and prone are a crutch.
Quote from: aragornelessar86 on January 12, 2012, 05:37:49 PM
Quote from: Justin on January 10, 2012, 10:21:41 PM
They are all standing targets. O0 Sitting and prone are a crutch.
Lol! I hope you're joking.
Not joking at all, still have the AQT to prove it. ;)
Shooting 4-6 MOA isn't hard, with a little practice and proper fundamentals it is quite easy, even from standing. Saving the Country is the hard part, wanna help?
Since the OP has never been to an Appleseed we really want justsomedude to get to a shoot and learn the fundamentals.
I give the OP credit for experimenting and learning. Adapting his technique to support is great! Hey, field expedient is often the name of the game...doing what you have to do. I hope the OP has a great first Appleseed and is able to learn and apply the fundamentals to everything after.
I'm also always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't think that any of the responders wanted to smack someone for trying something different. I believe the emphasis was more on practicing self-sufficiency. If you practice the standing you gain skills that apply to other positions. If you practice with a rest it doesn't really help you with anything. The point being to challenge yourself...not just shoot good groups.
Quote from: aragornelessar86 on January 12, 2012, 05:37:49 PM
Lol! I hope you're joking.
I was in the middle of posting when Justin chimed in. If you free your mind, exercise the fundamentals and your skills you can do some pretty impressive things. Justin hit a 221 from standing using a bolt action. In a moment of sibling ribbing I told him to get started on doing it left handed...always challenge yourself.
-Peter
Quote from: Justin on January 10, 2012, 10:21:41 PM
They are all standing targets. O0 Sitting and prone are a crutch.
8)
After you master the AQT in all possible postions/configurations, it's time to move on to pistol at KD... It'll more emmulate the range/accuracy of a muzzle loader. O0
Justin, mind if I ask what rifle you were using for that? Just curious.
Roland
Quote from: Roland on January 13, 2012, 08:05:49 PM
Justin, mind if I ask what rifle you were using for that? Just curious.
Roland
Roland, Savage Mark II.
Quote from: AFTERMATH on January 13, 2012, 08:01:03 PM
Quote from: Justin on January 10, 2012, 10:21:41 PM
They are all standing targets. O0 Sitting and prone are a crutch.
8)
After you master the AQT in all possible postions/configurations, it's time to move on to pistol at KD... It'll more emmulate the range/accuracy of a muzzle loader. O0
AFTERMATH, excellent suggestion my friend! I'm thinking Ruger 22/45 will be the economical path down that road. Do you have any experience or suggestions for this? After that there is always trying with slugs...
The 22/45 is an excellent choice. If I was buying a new one I would get the longer barreled one if you want to target shoot with it. I friend of mine is big into class III and silencers so the threaded option now appeals to me.
The controls are where they are on other guns: safety, mag release and slide release.
The slab side Ruger Mark III is a very nice piece but the controls are not the same as other handguns.
http://www.ruger.com/products/markIIICompetition/models.html
If you have a double action centerfire pistol I would seriously look at the new SR-22.
http://www.ruger.com/products/sr22Pistol/models.html
The models my brother and I own are the previous generation.
No I'm not brand bias. ;D
Quote from: Justin on January 13, 2012, 10:24:23 PM
AFTERMATH, excellent suggestion my friend! I'm thinking Ruger 22/45 will be the economical path down that road. Do you have any experience or suggestions for this? After that there is always trying with slugs...
Me + pistol = fast at the draw but... Good enough to get to a rifle... Anyway.
Three, a MN IIT, tried his .45acp at 36in steel - 200yrds. Rolla, ND. RBC - 07-10 - Huzza!
After walkin' 'em in his POA was about 36 minutes high.
That'll get you started. O0
Slugs would be fun, but 00-Buck would be interesting. :---
Anyway, to get the thread back on track.
JSD, I guess I'm not well experienced on indoor ranges, so I'm not sure which ledge you're refering to. It seems, you've got a general understanding of the steady hold factors.
Remember to keep that support elbow under the rifle - sling snug.
[You're right-handed, correct?]
Good.
My suggestion, when using an extra aid such as; a rest, tree limb, ledge, etc.
Use your support hand as a cushion between the rifle and the supporting object.
And any leaning should be forward, into the rest. Just like your sling. Keeping in mind as you fire a string of fire, you may be slipping on the rest. -That's what happens when I lean on anything... Next thing I know; I'm falling to the ground.
I would advise against leaning/contact with your upper body and/or torso, as that may have an adverse effect on your breathing.
I don't have much experience with rests, or really anything other than the standard field postions that Appleseed teaches, but I understand that it's essentially it's simply a modified postion. Each material, environment and circumstance will require a bit of modifcation to make work. That's why we teach the fundamentals first. Get the fundamentals down, and you'll be able to work it out on your own - when the need arises.
Oh, and don't forget to find your NPOA and get it on target! NPOA in shooting - NPOA in life.
It works, and you're on your way to being JustsomeRifleman!
JustSomeDude,
Great to see you out shooting. Have fun.
Casper
PS Have we all forgot?
I want to apologize for getting a little heated earlier. I know we are all working toward the same goal, and we should make sure we let that keep us united.
OP? lil' help here! %)
Hey guys....no offense taken by me at all.
I know that "leaning" isn't one of the official Shooting positions.
I just approached it exactly like shooting Prone.
From a practical standpoint though....
Leaning across the hood of a car, bar/countertop/tabletop, Windowsill etc..
Aftermath,
Thanks for that. It was a very flimsy 'rest'.
I was basically only putting the weight of my arms and the rifle on it.
I've got a few places outside of town where I can go to shoot.
Need to take advantage of them soon!
Quote from: Sly223 on January 14, 2012, 01:53:10 PM
OP? lil' help here! %)
OP would mean in this case Original Poster ie: the person who started the thread. In some cases it could mean just Original Post as in "OP updated" or "modified the OP"
Thanks :-[
Quote from: aragornelessar86 on January 14, 2012, 03:15:02 AM
I want to apologize for getting a little heated earlier. I know we are all working toward the same goal, and we should make sure we let that keep us united.
What?!? Defending someone who was obviously trying to learn, perish the thought! Until the Internet becomes a perfect medium of communication and we're able to transmit thoughts, intent and emotion in one message it will always be..."fun". I only saw, "passion" in your post and that is one of the attributes of a great instructor. We move on knowing more than we did before.
-Peter
Quote from: Mr Pete on January 16, 2012, 03:54:24 PM
What?!? Defending someone who was obviously trying to learn, perish the thought! Until the Internet becomes a perfect medium of communication and we're able to transmit thoughts, intent and emotion in one message it will always be..."fun". I only saw, "passion" in your post and that is one of the attributes of a great instructor. We move on knowing more than we did before.
-Peter
Haha, thank you, that is how my posts were intended, but the keyboard has a nasty habit of stripping your words of emotion.
Justsomedude, I'm going to try this next time I'm at an indoor range, or any range with a "bench" for that matter. As you said, car hood, tabletop, etc. One never knows what sort of cover or support he/she may find if (God forbid) it ever were to come down to that.
Funny...I watched "Top Sniper" last night and there is an episode called 'Urban Combat'.
One of the assignments was Shooting from Alternate Positions.
They were talking about how there isn't always the opportunity to go Prone and use a BiPod.
One of the instructors was talking about how they teach the snipers to use the same fundamentals from the standard positions.
They were shooting Offhand, Buddy Support (the spotter is the bipod) seated unsupported, Seated Supported etc...
Also tied a sling onto rafters. It was interesting.