Does anyone know how accurate that drop in .22 LR conversions for the AR-15 (such as CMMG's) are?
I am specifically looking at using one for an Appleseed and wonder if their accuracy is acceptable at that range.
I have a CMMG conversion for a Colt AR-15 and the accuracy is about 4 MOA--which doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for the shooter's input. YMMV. I have an assortment of .22 conversions on the line but I don't recall if anyone has managed to shoot a Rifleman's score using one. The problem seems to be the twist rate is wrong for a .22 LR round and the bullet to bore fit is a mite sloppy. A dedicated .22 LR upper fixes those problems while depleting your wallet.
Quote...twist rate is wrong for a .22 LR round and the bullet to bore fit is a mite sloppy.
What I figured / read elsewhere; too good to be true.
Quote...while depleting your wallet.
Yep. My situation exactly.
CMMG in a S&W M&P15, I would have been happy with 4MOA. It never got close. It did take a few hundred round to break in but has been reliable in the function department ever since. Flyers were my biggest issue. It would hold 4 MOA-ish then drop one an inch outside of the group every 6 or 8 rounds. The same ammo would group 2MOA in a .22LR rifle.
I haven't seen any that does better than 4MOA, many are worse. They are fine for 80MOA CQB! :)...O.L.
I have a CMMG conversion in my DPMS. The best it would do was about 4 MOA, until I finally ran some CCI mini-mags through it, and it shot a little better than 3 MOA. Still not terrific, I know, but good enough that I have shot several Rifleman scores with it. ;) Also, I know most coversions have reliability issues, but I guess I have been lucky with mine. I have put thousands of rounds through it, including one full Appleseed (in very windy/dusty conditions) and most of a Sunday at another without a single hiccup.
I have one and agree.. YMMV.. Had to run a bunch of ammo to find any that was reliable at around 4 moa.. The other big issues are FTEs. If you get one, make sure you have tool handy to pluck those tiny stuck cases out through the ejection port.
I mostly use mine to let the kids bang away at objects that leak or pop.. Since they arent 4 MOA shooters yet, its not an issue.
RRA carbine running an Atchisson-Ciener Kit with both the 10 round metal and 29??? round blackdog mags.
IP
So you want a .22 rimfire AR-15?
Best scenario is the dedicated upper.
Next best is a drop in conversion using an A1 type barrel (as in SP1 or M16A1). Slower twist, 1-12, but bore diameter still a little sloppy. This is what the drop ins were designed for. I've used this combo many years ago, it was OK.
3rd choice is a drop in using a 1-9 twist barrel.
4th is the 1-7 or 1-8 barrels, and I have heard little good about them. Best accuracy is maybe 4 MOA if you're lucky. I don't recommend it.
Plan "E" is to make use of S&W Insructor Purchase Program and buy S&W M&P15-22 for $360 (and get a decent loaner rifle to boot) rather than the $579 msrp. Disclaimer: you will have to spend appx $11 from CTD or other accessories Co to buy front sling swivel. That said, works well.
Excelsior,
mad
PS Presently waiting for 2012 IPP sheets to arrive from Ruger, Smith, and Henry. Will advise arrival.
If I try "Plan E", what documentation do they require? I doubt I can send a picture of my hat. The hat color just changed in November.
I ran some 60gr Aguila SSS through my bolt conversion with good results on a 1/9 twist barrel - not the cheapest ammo.
I ended up putting a dedicated 22lr CMMG upper with a standard 22lr 1/16 twist on my AR. < 1" at 50 yards.
Would a letter on an RWVA letterhead, signed by an MI or one of the senior people, certifying that you're an RWVA Instructor work? That can easily be done up, scanned and e-mailed to you.
Matter of fact, you should have an RWVA Instructor card already. That also should work, and if you need one of those, contact RifleWoman. IIRC, there's a thread on it in the Instructor Corps area.
Quote from: dronning on January 06, 2012, 04:18:14 PM
I ran some 60gr Aguila SSS through my bolt conversion with good results on a 1/9 twist barrel - not the cheapest ammo.
I ended up putting a dedicated 22lr CMMG upper with a standard 22lr 1/16 twist on my AR. < 1" at 50 yards.
Yep, I'm eyeballing this one:
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/20-Gov39t-Profile-Upper-1662
I want the rifle length to run irons...O.L.
Have not received any credentials, yet. Made requests to the folks I thought I should. Could be I got it wrong. Not likely to need them right away though. The budget is not structured for another aquisition for a month or 2.
Riflewoman, via pm contact w. Evenstar, supplies Red Hat instructor ID card and certificate; my understanding
from her is that the creds are sent out in batches of 10 or 20...
Believe that Ruger-Smith-Henry require, as they do for NRA Instructor participation, copy of the ID card or certificate, rather than cobbled together documentation (no offense, N).
BTW, will be trying to schedule an NRA Cert Rifle Instructor class sometime later this year in the Glens Falls area. Will probably be combined w. RSO class and cost somewhere in the $160 class. I'm not an NRA Training Counselor, so i don't set price.
Excelsior,
mad
I have the Target Master conversion bolt from Black Dog.
My AR is a 20" HBAR with a 1:9 twist.
It seems to do OK.
I've only shot Bulk Ammo on a 75 foot range without a rest so I don't know how tight of a group the rifle is capable of.
It is still more accurate than I am though :)
I've only shot the rifle 3 range sessions so still learning my hold/sights (iron).
Aiming at a target smaller than 1" at that range is difficult for me.
But I don't have problems keeping them on a 25m Zero target which is 1.5" wide and 3" tall if I recall correctly.
JSD, put it on some sand bags to see what it will do. (Oh the shame!) I've seen a couple conversions that seem to start out OK, but after 50-100 shots start scattering and or shift POI for no apparent reason. Personally, I think it has less to do with twist rate and more to do with the .001" slop rattling down the barrel. If it was the twist rate, they be bad all the time.....O.L.
just get a model 1 sales dedicated .22lr upper. Then you can use your lower with the same trigger and ergonomics of your standard. You will save alot on ammo and if you have a match grade 223 barrel you will save a lot on barrel life for cheap practice. The dedicated upper has a real .22 lr barrel (twist and diameter of bore)on it.
My intention with getting the AR was never as a Bullseye rifle but more for Run and Gun.
As I learn more and see what I really use it for I will see when the kit starts to hold me back.
Then I can decide on a dedicated upper or a separate rifle.
For now, a decent group on the "A" Zone from 100 yards feels like precision shooting to me. My upcoming Appleseed shoot will raise my expectations!
For $500+ and some sights...the Nordic runs about the same price as the Model 1 Sales...
Update
With my newly acquired AS Skills from yesterday (THANKS GUYS)
I just put 3 rounds of Winchester CB Match almost through the same hole.
But only from 20' in my garage :)
CB rounds won't reliably eject (manually) on my AR so I don't have the patience to load one go prone, fire, stand, pry out round my fingernail and repeat for very long....
But if it can stay that tight on more than three rounds, it is very accurate.
And again, this is a Target Master conversion through a 20" 1/9 barrel using A2 sights.
Never tried CB's from an AR conversion but with a 10-22, load up the mags and cycle the bolt by hand each shot. Your ejector won't catch them? It should. I'm not a fan of the conversions. 1/8" off at 20' will be 1/2"+ 25m which isn't bad if it'll stay there. What I've seen from several conversions is the group size and POI with drift around for no appearent reason.......O.L.
My observations on the line agree with those of Nickle.
An old 1:12 upper will work and shoot a Riflemans' score.
A 1:9 twist M-4 can do it.
CMMG kits mostly like Blazer brick 40 grain LRN
I know an orange hat who had a dedicated CMMG upper. He said he found accurate ammo, and he found reliable ammo. Unfortunately, it was 2 different brands. OTOH, I saw another shooter score 246 on another CMMG upper using CCI minimags.
There seems to be a lot of variation in performance between individual conversion kits and dedicated uppers.
I have a 1:7 twist 16" Olympic Arms,
The conversion kit, is fun not too accurrate.
I have often blamed a less than desirable front sight post.
It is what it is and it is fun.
My kit is the Seamens,
Also needed is a 40grn with at least 1200fps.for the bolt to function properly.
With the natural 4-6 inch drop at 100yrds. unless kept to the 25meter. I would not expect to acquire anything better than about 5MOA. at 100yrds.
I have four other .22's much more Accurrate and will eat anything!
Sly,
I've gotta try more ammo....
Federal Automatch 40gr RN 1200fps was BAD
Remington Target was better but accuracy seemed random (could have been me).
I'm going to try American Eagle and CCI Blazer
If you can find a barrel with a 1-16 twist that is really the optimum for a .22 round I have a Mark II that just drills stuff though the same hole all day at 25 yards
I have a Spikes Tactical conversion kit. It is basically the same as the CMMG one. It is accurate in my SP1 1:12 bbl. Not as accurate with my 1:9 carbines.
It would shoot rifleman if I could just get through a course of fire without it jamming.
Ok... Riddle me this... The heavier the bullet the faster the twist needed seems to be the common wisdom. Right?
So if I take a standard .22lr with 1:16 that normaly shoots a 40ish gr. I go to a 60 gr. I should see an accuracy drop if that "common wisdom" is true. In 3 different guns I've tried, the opposite is true. I think we're barking up the wrong tree thinking it's twist rate causeing the problems...O.L.
Isn't the biggest problem the fact that a .22 and a .223 are different diameters?
That's my thinking...Ok gunsmiths, how about chamber a conversion in .22 mag? They are .224 but they might be too tight. With lead bullets a person has a thousands or two to play with...O.L.
Accurracy,
in these conversion kits will always have challenges,
and they have been answered here already.
Battle rifles do not have the proper twist.(approx.1:7 1;9)
The other issue is the projectile diameter of the .22 being smaller than the .223(.224).
Last the velocity is about 1/2,negligible at 25 meters,
unless you want less than the 4moa standard!
If you want a AR style platform to shoot 22 just get an S&W 15-22, it will cost you around the same as building a dedicated upper and you get a whole rifle. Every one I have spoke to about them say they are awesome. Also from what I understand if you become an instructor S&W gives an instructor discount.
~PlatzOut~
Weight of a M$P .22: 4lbs sans optics. Weight of a bare bones M4: 7lbs.
Just something to consider. It will handle different.
Yes...the light weight of the M&P put me off.
I just sent my Kit back to the manufacturer for Feed issues.
Just an FYI on how these work...
The recoil spring in them is very light of course.
But it has to work with your Hammer Spring too so it is a bit of a balancing act.
UPDATE
target Master sent me a new Kit.
This one is MUCH more Ammo tolerant
I did several Mag Dumps using Federal Automatch, Champion, CCI Blazer and Remington Golden (all round nose).
Had one Fail to Eject from the Remington Golden and I think it was a light Load that failed to push the bolt back enough to Cock the Hammer and eject the casing.
Will post agin when I get a good chance to test the accuracy.
They claim consistent .5-.75" groups at 25m that are less than .5" lower impact than 5.56 Ammo
So not "Tack Driver" for sure but maybe good enough for training if you just bump up your rear sight a little.
Quote from: SSG Platz on April 13, 2012, 04:46:02 PM
If you want a AR style platform to shoot 22 just get an S&W 15-22, it will cost you around the same as building a dedicated upper and you get a whole rifle. Every one I have spoke to about them say they are awesome. Also from what I understand if you become an instructor S&W gives an instructor discount.
~PlatzOut~
I've shot several of them and besides the weight issue (lighter rifles are inherently less accurate in anyones hands), the front sight is something close to 8 MOA wide, and the sight radius is short. Can fix that with a scope. Doing a dedicated upper means there is no change in "feel" especially the trigger which isn't great but neither are most "stock" AR's. Not a big deal as we can retrain muscle memory fairly quick but it takes me some dry fire therapy to get back in sync with the rifle. We are spoiled with too many choices aren't we?!!!....O.L.