OK, so I'm preparing for my first AS. I bought a USGI cotton sling and I'm trying to figure this thing out. I did find this link:
http://www.ray-vin.com/tech/websling/webslinghelp.htm
And it made some sense, but I still don't really see the advantage of this over a 2-Point sling. When I use a 2-Point sling that's connected to the buttstock and the forend and wrap my arm around it, it seems more stable than the USGI around my arm connected to the forend only. It also seems way more comfortable than the USGI sling. Am I missing something? Is there a better demo video that better shows how to setup one of these slings? In this case I'm using an AR rifle, but I may use it on my 10/22 as well. Thanks for any advice!
Kent
The advantage of the USGI web sling is that it can be used both as a two point sling or as demo'ed at Ray-Vin. As demonstrated it is more consistant and will not slide down your arm during mag changes or during rapid fire. Give it a chance you will see the stability it provides.
Milt
Hold onto your question until after your seed. once you learn the sling you will be sold. where are you going to your seed?
I'm thinking I'll sign up for the February Winterseed in Waterman, IL. I've set up a set of AQT targets in the back yard so I can practice dry fire, but I'd like to be able to do positional practice with the sling. I'm sure I'm just being dense, but I'm not really getting the setup of it.
Kent
Kent, you will after a seed. Go in with an open mind, I had to do that as well. To start with, I hated the loop sling, mostly I hated getting in and out of it. Put a "J" hook on both ends, I can get into and out as fast or faster than one can a hasty (2 point). After learning the loop, my shooting improved leaps and bounds, I love it! The slings won't be the only thing awkward to start with so keep that open mind and humor the instructors. :)...O.L.
Ditto what oladcock said. I shot my first Appleseed with a 2 point hasty sling because I didn't come with a military sling that would allow me to make a loop. I had a 1" sling with a single length adjustment point.
I bought 1 1/4" swivels and got a military sling for my second Appleseed and forced myself to use the loop sling (I was more comfortable with what I knew - the hasty). Once I got used to it, I was much more accurate in the prone and sitting positions. I still prefer the hasty sling when shooting in the standing position, but the loop sling works there as well.
- ShadowMan
For at least the first day resist the temptation to just unhook the quick disconnnect from the rifle's fore end, leaving the sling attached to your arm. After you put the sling on and off several dozen times you will learn the proper donning and adjustment of it and you won't be asking on Sunday afternoon "how do I put this thing on?" Here is a pretty good video showing use of the GI sling on a M1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRPfj-6bRZM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRPfj-6bRZM)
I'm definitely willing to learn this sling, but if I'm going to practice dry firing with it, I'd like to be sure I'm using it correctly. Does this look right? Thanks for the advice so far, guys!
Kent
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/UncleFluffy/Firearms/P1010967.jpg)
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/UncleFluffy/Firearms/P1010969.jpg)
You want the loop up above your bicep, other than that it looks good.
I'm instructing at Waterman in Feb. Bring your sling, rifle and 400 rounds. Dress for the weather, cold and hopefully snow #). Bring a shooting mat or carpet remnent to lie on, we do a lot of prone.
2 clicks low
Looks pretty good but I would suggest getting the loop up higher on your arm, above the bicep and almost in the armpit if possible. You will also be more comfortable with the cam adjusting buckle in some position where it doesn't jam into your hand. The idea is to let the sling support the rifle (and you since you should have your head resting on the rifle stock) with your support arm completely relaxed. If the sling is not snug enough you will be using muscle tension instead of the sling--and that is not conducive to accuracy. Here is more on sling use: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTsUaujfiB8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTsUaujfiB8&feature=related) Strangely enough, we had a young lady shoot Rifleman on her first Appleseed after studying these old training films and diligently practicing at home.
Quote from: 2 clicks low on December 29, 2011, 10:16:24 PM
You want the loop up above your bicep, other than that it looks good.
I'm instructing at Waterman in Feb. Bring your sling, rifle and 400 rounds. Dress for the weather, cold and hopefully snow #). Bring a shooting mat or carpet remnent to lie on, we do a lot of prone.
2 clicks low
Looking forward to meeting you! I'm one of those crazies that like to go for hikes when the temps drop into the brutal temps. ++) Just tried it up higher on my arm and that feels better. Thanks for the help!
Kent
The reason for getting the sling loop as high as practical on your upper arm, above the bicep, is to turn the "V" formed by the bones of your upper and lower arms, into a triangle. (Third side being the non-stretchable snug sling.) That'a a very stable structure, which will support the weight of the rifle without any muscle input. Muscles get tired and start to quiver; bones do not. One of the several Appleseed mantras: Bones, good. Muscles, bad.
To keep the loop high, get it above the hem of your short-sleeved shirt. It'll tend to stay there much better as you get into shooting position.
Quote from: didactic on December 29, 2011, 11:20:03 PM
To keep the loop high, get it above the hem of your short-sleeved shirt. It'll tend to stay there much better as you get into shooting position.
I'll give that a try. Thanks!
Kent
I just flip the cam-buckle-thingee over so that the flat side is against my hand then it really doesn't matter where it is in adjustment.
Functions just as well and no digging into my hand.
Good advice and good instructional videos! Here is another video of an interview with NYS Appleseed instructors Dan and Rich by the Internet show MarblePlayTV at the Nov 11-12 2011 Manhattan Appleseed, showing how to use the loop sling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-9yKjQHsE4
Gary
Another good video! Thanks, guys!
Kent
Moving the cam buckle further from the swivel has two good advantges: 1) the buckle does not dig into your hand. 2) the loose tail of the sling is shorter. I find many shooters are greatly relived to find out they do not have to have that buckle digging in. A loose "tail" can get caught under your elbow or just swing enough to cause a minute muzzle shift. Comfort goes a long way toward improving your position.
You know, it would be very helpful if somebody would write up a how to sheet on the sling. How to set it up and how to use it with pics like Topgear posted. And if it would fit on an 8 1/2 x 11" sheet, so I can send it out with sling orders or at least a link on how to use it. I get lots of questions on it and rarely have time to answer effectively.
RW
I think a handful of high quality pics and a paragraph or two of description would go a long way. The pics on the Ray-Vin site where helpful, but a little on the small side. It could even be a sticky here and be made into a PDF.
Kent
I know we're not a secret squirrel club, but I would just say, "get thee to an Appleseed".
I truly believed (ego) that I had figured out most everything until JuniorBirdman and Dano (Shoot Bosses of my RBC) showed me the light. I figured myself a pretty smart guy and saw all the videos. I even memorized much of the curriculum (ask my classmates who are mostly Shoot Bosses now) but it wasn't until I was shown everything that it all came together.
Not saying that you can't do it, but experience is a major factor...and that takes all of 5 minutes in an Appleseed weekend (vs all the time in videos, instructions and PMs). Ask an experienced State Coordinator about V's sling snit...5 minutes and all will be revealed. Far more than every video, manual or book could take you is the experience of doing it under a watchful Red Hat.
I'm not just trying to sell Appleseed...in fact I would help you if we happened to be next to each other at the range. Videos and manuals give you the content without context. Without guidance you might be reinforcing bad habits...why not start with good habits? If you live in Southern California I'd happily meet with you. I say do the minimum prep and just go!
I don't mean this to sound smug, more like sage advice from someone who has been where you are now. If after your first Appleseed you don't understand my point of view I'll send you 10 dollars (on my honor). I hope you have a great time at your first Appleseed!
Sincerely,
-Peter
I fully understand the concept of "Just show up..." but that's just not in my personality. I need to dig into a topic, study it, practice a few elements of it, try a few things out, etc. I guess that's one of my character flaws, but it's served me well so far. ;D
Kent
"By failing to prepare you are preparing to fail."
-- Benjamin Fanklin
Kent,
I am the same way so it can't be a character flaw... ::)
Your diligence and preparation are some of the traits of a true Rifleman.
It took me two years to get to my first Appleseed. Several months before going I prepped, researched and practiced like crazy. Hindsight is 20/20 and I recognize that same pattern in your questions. The gentle urging was to help you avoid the possibility of needing to unlearn some things. In the end I don't think I could have just gone either. Do as I say...not as I do?!? #)
I hope I get to meet you some day and have a Happy Appleseed!
-Peter
Having to "unlearn" bad behaviors is what I'd like to avoid. As a motorcyclist, I have seen plenty of other riders that have developed bad habits by either learning on their own, or developing them over time. These bad habits may seem like small things, but they can add up to a big mistake that will get you killed. That's why I'm a firm believer in the Motorcycle Safety Foundation courses (and nearly any other structured course for that matter) where an instructor can evaluate your actions and give formative feedback. For our own safety, we should probably take one of these yearly, but they fill up very quickly here, and I feel those slots may best serve to educate new riders.
While bad habits on the firing line may also seem small, they can add up to a bad situation as well. The more I can digest now about the concepts of what will be taught, the less I'll have to absorb on the range days, and the more I can focus on refining techniques and developing good habits. I'm betting a lot of us that show up to an AS have a fairly similar set of character traits. Maybe we can build a few of those into others along the way too. O0
Kent
If people show up with a minimum of preparation, that makes the jobs of the instructors jobs so much easier.
However, if we add more stuff to the reading list, that might not work so well. I mean, I can't tell you how many people don't even read the stuff to bring list.
That said, maybe we should have a set of links on somewhere that everybody who goes to an Appleseed reads. Not the forum, it scares most first timers.
I don't know where this stuff might be put, but if we linked stuff like the sling instructions, the LTR checklist for 10-22s, warnings about bad factory sights, etc. Maybe put this stuff in word documents or something.
Because there are people who need to find out everything they can. I should know, I'm one of them!
Roland
P.S. I just volunteered for something accidentally, didn't I? Oh well, it needed to be said :D
Actually the best way to prepare for your first Appleseed is to go to the "What to bring" and "FAQ" sections and take heed, especially about bringing an open mind (a teachable attitude), lunch, snacks, plenty of water (even if it is cold), a chair, etc. Since that is not the answer you were looking for and you are probably as anxious as I was to be "ready to go" when you get there, do a web search for USMC Rifle Marksmanship. Look for USMC - MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship. Chapter 5 is what you are looking for, covers the sling and positions. Hope that helps and you have a great Appleseed experience.
Craig
Roland - Don't worry about it, people already got voluntold on those things and they are just waiting for the new forum stuff to get settled out to post.
Topgear - Do what you want, man. You're beatin a dead horse. You can study all kinds of things, we live in a world where the volume of information at our fingertips is astounding. You are going to run the risk of being subject to information poorly presented or the inability to properly implement the information you have, that is why in every sport there are coaches and why every great player, from Bird to Jordan to Mantle to the great Gary Anderson are going to tell you they had coaches working with them the whole way. I spent hours watching Inoue's uchi mata but I was never able to execute it until my sensei fixed what I didn't know I was doing wrong.
Being prepared can come in a lot of different shapes and sizes. You are wanting to be prepared by learning the Points of Instruction before hand. That is one kind of prepared and you will find hundreds, HUNDREDS, of active marksmanship instructors on this forum who will tell you that you run the risk of doing yourself a disservice and they tell you that out of experience, not vanity. Every one of them hopes that things go different for you. They are just playin the numbers, though.
If you are chompin at the bit to get out there you should check out Hubertus, WI. They are doing shoot next weekend and the guy that Shoot Bosses those shoots is one of our Senior Instructors. The next weekend you could come down to North Vernon, IN. It is a cool place, a cowboy camp actually, and the guy that is bossing that shoot is the best. I know because he is me and I am really awesome. Otherwise, if you insist on waiting until Waterman, which is cool because Waterman is kinda neat, then the best thing you can do is show up with a rifle, a USGI sling, 500 rounds, two mags, eyes and ear protection, a notebook and some water. That is it. That is the bare bones if you want to show up and not borrow anything. See you on the line.
Loop sling is essential for the final stage. If you bring a USGI sling you are ahead of the game. I knew nothing about slings and showed up without any sling at all. If I hadn't borrowed one from a kind soul I never woulda shot score. My personal rule is if you are prone - you better be looped. Just bring the sling and you'll do fine. They'll show ya what to do. Its fun to learn on the fly. ....its supposed to be fun.