I'm new here, but I've been reading as much as I can. I'm planning on my first AS event, and will likely use my trusty old 10/22 for that. I'll ditch the scope and put on a set of Tech Sights. I'm thinking I'll likely want to take the class again with my AR-15 for some training on that rifle as well. It's a flat top with a budget red dot, but I'll probably pull that off and use my Magpul Backup Iron Sights (MBUS Gen 2). My question is, is the rear aperture (the smaller one) good enough for AS, or should I consider something with a smaller aperture? Also, should I swap out the front sight pin for something thinner? I know there is a lot of support in the "run what ya brung" camp, but if there is a simple and relative cheap change I can make, it might be worth it. Thanks, and looking forward to getting on the range!
Kent
Leave the front post alone and run the smaller apature. That should work.
Is it an M4 style setup (16" barrel with carbine length gas system & sight radius)?
Is it a longer 20" barrel with full length sight distance?
And how are your eyes?
Thanks for the quick response! It's an M4 style, 16" barrel. Actually, it's a Ruger SR-556E, so a gas piston system. Because of the warnings from Magpul I'm not running the front sight on the gas block, but as close as I can to it. Some seem to say it will hold up to the heat, but I'm wary. Eyes are good. A little far-sighted, but 20/15 visual acuity.
Kent
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/UncleFluffy/Firearms/P1010929.jpg)
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/UncleFluffy/Firearms/P1010926.jpg)
Sights should be fine, but get a 1-1/4 sling swivel for the front and a GI sling--you'll know why after your first AS. Have fun!
Thanks! I'll definitely pick up both beforehand.
Kent
Bring 2 or 3 10- or 20-round magazines, if you have them, so the magazine won't touch the ground when shooting prone. Test them, of course, to make sure they work well.
I guess the mag touching the ground is considered a "cardinal sin" in AS? I know there is some debate on it within some of my AR specific forums.
Kent
Your 30round mag may or may not touch the ground. It has to do with how your body is shaped. I am average height and build and mine do not on the same platform. Actually I have a healthy space there, maybe three or more inches. Bring it all and see what happens.
the only Cardinal Sin in Appleseed is not showing up. O0
I've got about a half dozen 30rd Pmags and 3-20rd standard mags. The PMags definitely "feel" better when changing mags, but I'll bring along the 20's just in case. Maybe I'll pick up a few 20rd Pmags as well.
Kent
I used my AR the first time I attended. Turns out I'm not able to focus on the front sight so I had a hard time with that. The 10/22 was much easier for my older eyes. The 30 rnd mags were not a problem for me, but as mentioned above, that is really a function of how you hold the rifle in prone and the length of your arms.
If there's any slop in the feed lips on your magazine, resting the mag on the ground can cause a double-feed... This should not happen with new, high-quality production magazines, but I've seen it lots of times, and it's happened to me. Better not to have the mag touching the ground if you can avoid it.
Personally I prefer the 20-rounders to the 30's. I'm fairly tall and very long-armed, but with a 30-rounder I'm close to touching the ground, and my elbow isn't under the rifle where it belongs.
At Appleseed (and most times) I use 10-rounders, for what it's worth.
Ultimately, you'll have to figure out what works for you. Everybody's different.
Quote from: TxBobS on December 21, 2011, 02:37:18 AMThe 10/22 was much easier for my older eyes.
I think I'll be taking the general advice I've seen so far and take my 10/22 to my first AS and then I can evaluate what, if any, changes I might want to make to my AR before attending one with it. Thanks!
Kent
Quote from: Rocket Man on December 21, 2011, 02:49:36 AMPersonally I prefer the 20-rounders to the 30's. I'm fairly tall and very long-armed, but with a 30-rounder I'm close to touching the ground, and my elbow isn't under the rifle where it belongs.
At Appleseed (and most times) I use 10-rounders, for what it's worth.
Ultimately, you'll have to figure out what works for you. Everybody's different.
I think I'll try to pick up some 20rd Pmags for the prone portions at least. I'm very happy with the way my 30rd Pmags function and most anyone would have a hard time arguing their reliability. Thanks for the advice!
Kent
If you have a scope and red dot on your rifles already, why not just "run what you brung" in the truest sense of the phrase?
Tech Sights and peeps are good but if you're a scope/dot kind of guy, bring those instead of going to "artificial" sights. There's nothing in our doctrine that says you have to do it with irons. I hear people all the time talking about "I need to do it with this sight" or "I'd like to qualify with this rifle before I move on."
Well, the truth is a Rifleman can pick up ANY rack-grade rifle and run it to rifleman standards. Sure, you may have to figure out the rifle and get some dope on the sights, but you should be able to do it with any sighting system.
For the first AS you go to a 10/22 with Tech Sights is ideal, but a $20 scope from Wal-Mart is just as good. We cover the sights, but we're not teaching you skills that are specific to one sighting system - the basics apply to all!
Quote from: slim on December 21, 2011, 11:35:45 AM
If you have a scope and red dot on your rifles already, why not just "run what you brung" in the truest sense of the phrase?
Tech Sights and peeps are good but if you're a scope/dot kind of guy, bring those instead of going to "artificial" sights. There's nothing in our doctrine that says you have to do it with irons. I hear people all the time talking about "I need to do it with this sight" or "I'd like to qualify with this rifle before I move on."
Well, the truth is a Rifleman can pick up ANY rack-grade rifle and run it to rifleman standards. Sure, you may have to figure out the rifle and get some dope on the sights, but you should be able to do it with any sighting system.
For the first AS you go to a 10/22 with Tech Sights is ideal, but a $20 scope from Wal-Mart is just as good. We cover the sights, but we're not teaching you skills that are specific to one sighting system - the basics apply to all!
I agree with Slim, I put one of those cheap "dots" on one of our carbines with zero magnification. You could turn the intensity down and I was amazed the groups one could get out of it. I've run the same rifle with the stock open sights. They're OK but I'm spoiled by the tech sights on the 10-22's. I'd want a much skinnier front sight on the carbine but the sight radius would still be very short. As it is I'm going to get another upper with a 20" barrel to be my iron sight AR and leave the carbine upper for the 80MOA CQB stuff....O.L.
My concern with using the red dot that I have is parallax. I guess I can run with it and if it's really screwing with me, I can run the irons only. Thanks for the advice, guys!
Kent
It's never been an issue for me.
I have heard that the MBUS have issues with KD. A couple of instructors I talked to while building my own AR said they didn't do so well at over 100 yards. However, apparently others found it to work just fine. It was enough to discourage me from buying them, plus the fact that GG&G sights were on sale. What kind of red dot are you using? If it is of decent quality, I might just run that. But options are always good.
And could you borrow someone elses rifle to see how you like the sights on it? This was the best advice I got on AR building, you will be surprised how many strangers at the range will let you run a few rounds through their rifle it you say you are looking at various options.
One final thought: [url]http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=matech&_sacat=&_ex_kw=&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_sop=&_fpos=&_fspt=1&_sadis=&LH_CAds=&satitle=matech[url] This is the site the Air Force uses on their rifles, I have heard very good things about it. It ranges, its supposed to be durable, and its not to expensive.
Roland
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=12486.msg103354;topicseen#msg103354
If you get the Matech sights here's a link to an earlier thread here on sighting the rifle in with the Matechs. I have Matech sights on several AR15's. Consistency is good.
No issues with them so far.
Quote from: Roland on December 21, 2011, 05:14:58 PM
I have heard that the MBUS have issues with KD.
Showing my ignorance here. What is KD?
The Red Dot I have is a Vortex Strikefire. Not cheap, but not high end by any means. Those Matech sights look pretty good. I was looking at a similar sight from GG&G but these are coming in cheaper. Thanks for the tips!
Kent
I made Rifleman with an AR-15 and here's my advice for you. Get a set of M-4 sights. Not the back up style. The removable carry handle and its matching removable front. You'll have the best sights for adjustability. Before you go zero the sights at 25 yards and you'll only have to make minor adjustments. The only sight you'll need a tool for is the front sight. Windage and elevation adjustments on the rear sight are as simple as turning the knob.
Marty
KD = Known Distance. It's when we shoot out past 25. You "know" your target is at a certain "distance" and you apply the proper dope to your rifle to make hits. "Let's see... that target is at 400 yards so I need to add five clicks of elevation to my sights."
AR front sight - You always have a tool with you. Use a bullet!
Quote from: slim on December 22, 2011, 08:49:03 AM
KD = Known Distance.
Ah yes. Makes sense. After what you said I messed around with co-witnessing my red dot with my irons and I think I'll give the dot a run. I'm able to dial the dot down to a brightness that seems to have good shape even in the daylight. Thanks for the advice!
Kent
Huzzah!
Happy shootin.
...and you might want to reverse your hand-stop on the rifle, if you haven't already.
Quote from: Colorado Pete on December 23, 2011, 02:55:51 AM
...and you might want to reverse your hand-stop on the rifle, if you haven't already.
Are you referring to the device on my lower rail? That's a bipod mount and it will be off for the AS.
Kent
+1 on running the dot. Good choice. I know people that have had very good luck with Vortex, they seem to actually be a company that makes decent quality gear for not too terribly expensive prices.
Roland
Quote from: Roland on December 23, 2011, 02:12:14 PM
I know people that have had very good luck with Vortex, they seem to actually be a company that makes decent quality gear for not too terribly expensive prices.
Roland
Good to know there's some good reviews out there! Thanks!
Kent
Quote from: Topgear on December 23, 2011, 08:14:05 AM
Quote from: Colorado Pete on December 23, 2011, 02:55:51 AM
...and you might want to reverse your hand-stop on the rifle, if you haven't already.
Are you referring to the device on my lower rail? That's a bipod mount and it will be off for the AS.
Kent
It may be a bipod mount, but it's shaped like a hand stop. Reverse it and will fulfill both functions.
Ditto Colorado Pete, but you are also going to need a front sling swivel (unless it is part of that bi-pod mount, can't the in the picture) I have my front swivel on a picatinny and set it so the sling comes off and my mitt/glove is up against the base of the swivel as a hand stop. When done properly your support hand just can not slip. Mitt is necessary due to the recoil of the 5.56 and the rail potentially tearing up a bare hand.
I got what you're saying. I'm used to turning that mount around and using it to pull the rifle into my shoulder. I guess that will change a bit with the use of a USGI sling instead. It does have a sling mount in the bipod adapter. Can be mounted on either side or the bottom. Thanks for the advice, guys!
Kent
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/UncleFluffy/Firearms/P1010963.jpg)
Quote from: GEmanuel on December 26, 2011, 09:00:02 AM
Ditto Colorado Pete, but you are also going to need a front sling swivel (unless it is part of that bi-pod mount, can't the in the picture) I have my front swivel on a picatinny and set it so the sling comes off and my mitt/glove is up against the base of the swivel as a hand stop. When done properly your support hand just can not slip. Mitt is necessary due to the recoil of the 5.56 and the rail potentially tearing up a bare hand.
"...the recoil of the 5.56..." ..okay I'm biting my tongue hard enough to draw blood... ;)
Try jamming your bare hand up against the swivel of an M1 rifle for 20 or 40 rounds....ouch!
Quote from: Colorado Pete on December 26, 2011, 11:33:03 PM
"...the recoil of the 5.56..." ..okay I'm biting my tongue hard enough to draw blood... ;)
Try jamming your bare hand up against the swivel of an M1 rifle for 20 or 40 rounds....ouch!
Yeah, I'd have to agree here. I'd say my AR may be a bit different due to the piston system, but I can't say I'd list recoil as a downside. Now, I'd like to see someone do an AS with a long barrel slug gun. That should be about the modern day equivalent of a Brown Bess, right? ;D
Kent
Everyone is different. For me the recoil of a .223 isn't much (due to the anti clotting medication I do get a "rasberry" area on my right shoulder though, but the recoil is not something I really notice at the time). I reallly don't notice the rails against my left hand either. Yes, its different than a round handguard/free float tube but not painful or objectionable - for me. My youngest son specified a smooth round free float tube on his 20" HBAR because he doesn't like the feel/effect of the rails on his support hand. He works with his hands every day (produce at a grocery store) and yet he thinks the rails are uncomfortable when firing the rifle.
We don't wear shooting jackets (we only where a jacket/coat if its cold enough to need a coat). We don't wear shooting gloves (unless its cold enough that we need gloves). We shoot as we would if we had to grab a rifle, shotgun, handgun and walk out of the door of the house to take care of something.
If something helps you shoot better, use it. Just be aware that practicing with it and then not having it when you need it will make a difference. Maybe a serious difference. After all. Why are you practicing with a rifle? A rifle is a serious tool for use in insuring your survival and the survival of your loved ones. A leather awl will put neat hole in paper much cheaper than a rifle bullet, if holes in paper is your reason for becoming a good shot with a rifle.
All sound advice, Old Dog. I'm actually contemplating making my first AS a Winterseed. As such, I'll bring along some different clothing layers and gear to help combat the elements. That does not mean, however, that I will be bringing along my TemPurPedic mattress as my ground cover. ;)
Kent
a mattress? Now that would have really put me to sleep. **)
I was so tired during the RBC I attended that I dozed off in the prone position a time or two. That was on the concrete with a GI weapons parachute case as a shooting mat. That mattress would have done me in. For some reason I have no problems picturing it in my head though.
Being comfortable helps - in paying attention and in shooting better. I usually wear loose fitting clothes, winter or summer.
Quote from: Topgear on December 20, 2011, 10:06:40 PM
Thanks for the quick response! It's an M4 style, 16" barrel. Actually, it's a Ruger SR-556E, so a gas piston system. Because of the warnings from Magpul I'm not running the front sight on the gas block, but as close as I can to it. Some seem to say it will hold up to the heat, but I'm wary. Eyes are good. A little far-sighted, but 20/15 visual acuity.
Kent
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/UncleFluffy/Firearms/P1010929.jpg)
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/UncleFluffy/Firearms/P1010926.jpg)
brother you need to turn that versapod adaptor around, you have it on backwards.
Also as far as your rear ap is concerned. The number one mistake that new shooters make with apeture sight setups is they go to small in the rear thinking it will improve accuracy. IT WILL NOT. You need quite a bit of daylight around to allow your eye to find the center of the target. This is the standard warning given in every intro to small bore shooting manual, I'll see if I can dig up some that may help
My advice to to bring what you will shoot no sense in swapping sights for the event if that's not your set up. My motto Train as you fight if you are a scope shooter leave the scope, Just my opinion