Newbie question here:
I understand with M1 or M14 sights how the come-ups for distance work. Two questions:
1. Do you adjust windage on the sights in the field, or simply hold off?
2. How does elevation work for scopes? a) adjust come-ups for each stage on the scope? b) use hold-off's for anything within bsz and adjust out past bsz? c) other?
Thanks
First, the come ups are designed to get you on paper. You must fine tune them to your rifle. The comeup for your rifle, sight/scope combination may be different than the standart of 3-3-3-4.
Second, as to adjustment. If you want to learn to use and adjust your sights, you need to use and adjust your sights. Kentucky windage is great when you lack the time for anything better. But if you have the time to adjust, then adjust.
If you want to learn your sights try the following. Get a good sling supported prone position. Fire one shot at 100 yards. Next adjust your sights 10 moa right and keeping the same point of aim, fire another shot. Adjust your sights down 10 moa and fire a third shot. Then, adjust your sights 10 moa left and fire a fourth shot. Finally adjust the sights up 10 moa and fire a fifth shot. You should have shot a box. Make sure that you keep the same POA throughout the exercise.
What you will likely find is that your sights (iron or scope) tend to be more accurrate and repeatable in the center of their adjustment area than at the edges. This may mean that you need to shim your scope mounts. Most M1's, M14's and AR's have a no wind zero that is roughly in the center of the adjustment area. But addons like hoods may move that no wind zero to one side or the other.
Finally, after you have your zero's, write them down and mark your sights. A paintpen (metallic sharpie) works for this, as does fingernail polish.
With the M1,M14 always make sure that you count off your sight dope and run your sight all the way down before storing your rifle (it's better to do it after each stage). If you do not and you try to remove your action you will find yourself with a bent rear sight which will require both work and $$$ to fix.
Here are some websites with sight marking instructions...
AR: http://www.ocabj.net/?p=654
M1/M14: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=349806
Let me repeat again. When you have your zeros WRITE THEM DOWN preferably in a book that stays with the rifle. I also like to record total rounds in this book. You will want to know the ammunition type for your zeros as it can change by several MOA with different lots.
Mike
Floyd, there's a continual tension in this program between target shooting and "field shooting".
What Appleseed tries to teach in terms of the tradition of the American Rifleman in our history is field shooting.
The difference between target shooting and field shooting is the targets are much larger in field shooting, and the time pressures are greater - along with the need to estimate range.
Field shooting can be bettered by shooting targets, but remember the old adage that you do what you are trained (or train yourself) to do - which means habits that are good on the target line may not be good for field shooting - reliance on known distance targets, time to gauge and adjust for the wind, etc.
Example: At the Ramseur range we used to engage 4 popups at 200 and 4 at 300 for speed - the winning times were usually in the 15-20 seconds range. Hmmm, eight widely spaced targets in both horizontal and vertical dimension - 2 seconds per target? Not much time for NPOA shift - and sometimes, you don't get 8 hits for 8 shots, which means you may have to squeeze an extra shot or two into the mix. At least you knew the ranges to the targets - but it's quite different from target shooting. Another difference is that, in the field, you may be running, out-of-breath, etc - not likely to have that on the target line.
If you go out in the field and try to engage multiple targets at various distances, you're likely to find it's hard to remember where your sights are set if you start spinning them up, down, left and right. I know, from personal experience, which is why I quit, when field shooting, moving windage - and while most of the time I'll add elevation, sometimes, you just don't have the time - and have to hold-over.
Which is why marking your basic 300 yard zero is so important. Then you can come back to your basic zero, anytime.
I don't have much experience with scopes, but I once saw a guy bring a Sheperd to the range and knock everything out to 500 down with one shot apiece, rapid fire - and no need for range estimation or holdover, because the reticule has each built-in - if I were to get a scope, I'd get one with those features - BOTH range estimation AND build-in hold-overs. It sure simplifies things, when you're in a hurry.
Another thing about field shooting, at least on a range: You can fire hundreds of rounds, compared to target shooting. If you "measure your pleasure" by the number of shots you fire [I'm assuming you're a rifleman, and each shot is a 'hit], field shooting is great... :)
QuoteI don't have much experience with scopes, but I once saw a guy bring a Sheperd to the range and knock everything out to 500 down with one shot apiece, rapid fire - and no need for range estimation or holdover, because the reticule has each built-in - if I were to get a scope, I'd get one with those features - BOTH range estimation AND build-in hold-overs. It sure simplifies things, when you're in a hurry.
If you can get past an aversion for anything soviet-made, I have found an outstanding scope that features both range estimation, and hold-offs, coupled with excellent glass, an illuminated reticle, nitrogen purging, and a magnesium scope body. Sounds pricy, right? Versions of this scope are available for less than $400, shipped. Want to know more? Visit www.KalinkaOptics.com
6x42 fixed power scope with 1000m range finder, $239.97 + SH: http://kalinkaoptics.com/rifle-scopes/posp/weaver-dovetail-picatinny/posp-6x42-d-variposp-w-black-finish-five-setting-adjustable-illuminated-reticle-independent-focus-1000-meter-rangefinder-rifle-scope-weaver-version.html
6x42 fixed power scope with mil-dot reticle, $239.97 + SH:
http://kalinkaoptics.com/rifle-scopes/posp/weaver-dovetail-picatinny/posp-6x42-d-pro-w-black-finish-independent-focus-us-mildot-rangefinder-rifle-scope-weaver-version.html
3-9x42 variable power scope, with 1000m rangefinder, $299.97 + SH:
http://kalinkaoptics.com/rifle-scopes/posp-zoom/weaver-dovetail-picatinny/posp-3-9x42-w-black-finish-1000-meter-rangefinder-rifle-scope-weaver-version.html
4-10x42 variable power scope, with mil-dot reticle, $399.97 + SH:
http://kalinkaoptics.com/rifle-scopes/posp-zoom/weaver-dovetail-picatinny/posp-4-10x42-d-variposp-w-five-setting-adjustable-illuminated-us-mil-dot-reticle-and-independent-focus-zoom-tactical-rifle-scope-weaver-version.html
All of the above come with built-in mounting system, designed for weaver/picatinny rails. Should you require a side-mount system, for your AK, PSL or Dragunov, they offer those too, with MANY more options available.
all the BDC scope stuff is great, on paper. Like JMD said - that may get you close but you need to shoot your rifle, with your ammo, at varying distances to make sure your rifle, with your ammo, shoots where you want it to.
I have a very nice (and sort of old) scope on my M1A. It has the BDC feature with the elevation adjustment knob (window with yards marked on the extension on the knob) on top. With ball ammo it hits POA at 100, 200, 300 yds. when the line in the window is aligned with the range on the knob. However, at 400 yds. I have to set the range knob on 460 yds. Yes, the scope came with multiple knobs for varying calibers/bullet weights but it still is only good for some of the settings on the knob. There is no substitute for getting yourself and your gear to the range to see what works for you.
Example #2 - I bought a Nikon variable power scope with a BDC feature - this one has lines at varying distances down the verticle cross hair below the center horizontal cross hair. Should be simple to use - however, even the Nikon owner's manual says you should take the rifle, scope and ammo to the range to determine how to adjust the scope to be able to use the small horizontal lines for shooting at distance. The owner's manual goes on to say that while the bullets may hit point of aim you may have to adjust the power setting at some distances to get the bullets to POA. In other words, changing the power setting (its a 3X9) may move the POI to the POA at some distances (when I read this I thought, hey, wait a minute, that's exactly the issue most folks say distinguishes a good scope from a mediocre scope - with a good scope the POI should not vary as you change power settings.) Then you need to record what power setting you used at each distance to get the POI to the POA. Too much for me. I'll just learn where the AR15 hits at varying ranges and use the old fashion way of aiming (hold over).
Good luck with your quest. Learning how your rifle shoots is worth it (and fun) as well as making you a better instructor - having experience doing what you're teaching always helps.
Thanks for the very helpful responses. And yes, this is for field shooting.
Shot KD out at Davilla past weekend for the first time, and discovered a whole new bunch of stuff to learn; a lot of the program came into focus (after shooting sighters at 300, and then going waaayyy down range to look at the target, my first thought on seeing a 12 inch group was: dang, I know I'm a better shooter than that!, then the old IMC lesson really sank in).
Doing it in the field is way different than on paper. When I returned home I realized that after spinning the dials out in the field I no longer had any idea where the zero was on my rifle.
I really appreciate the voice of experience. This stuff is important.
I'm a major fan of using hold-offs from BSZ out to 500 yards. Past that, I try to use a scope with graduated range dial for elevation changes.
I'll tell you that I like the "Dragunov reticle", have one on my PSL. My scoped long range (over 500 yards) bolt gun wears a 6-24X Mil-Dot. That one I don't have a picture of, but similar to a USMC M40A1, Rem 600 wearing a Hart barrel, McMillan stock and the 6-24X Mil Dot scope, .308 Caliber. I like all calibers.
(http://i1.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/250/draft_lens2373150module13412555photo_1231705449dragunov-scope-reticle.GIF)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/refarnsworth/Gun%20Pics/Picture051.jpg)
Forgot to mention, on 2 way ranges (bullets going both ways, I'm retired military, though never ended up in combat), I keep it simple and hold off. Not enough time to do otherwise.
Thanks. Learning this stuff takes time.
When I came back from Davilla, the little dial for windage was loose and floppy and so needed to be send back to Leupold to be fixed and then this morning I found out that they can install target knobs so that I don't have to be futzing with the little tin caps and a penny out amongst the cow-pies when shooting distance.
We need to get an instructor KD going down here in Texas so I can see how well this works in the field.
Everyone will come up with their own solution and method to make it work and one won't necessarily work for another. A lot to be said for figuring out holdovers and run! :)
I put 2x7 Redfield Revolutions with Accurange reticles on 2 of our 15's and a Leupold on my wife's 10. The circle and dot with the Accurange was VERY handy and worked so well, the next thing I know my wife is yanking that Leupold off and putting a 3x9 Redfield accurange on. Never heard of any one ditching a Leupold for a Redfield! LOL Leupold makes Redfield however.
The way they worked out on top of the A2 15's is center zeroed at 25, top of circle 100 and 200, center again at 300, bottom of the circle 400, and slight hold over with the dot 500. Everyones MWV depending on barrel length, load, scope height, bullet weight and a jillion other variables but they're working well for us....O.L.
http://www.redfield.com/riflescopes/
Oladcock, shame we haven't met.
I'm no fan of Leupold, haven't been for years.
Old steel tubed Weavers and Bausch & Lomb (and Bushnell) scopes don't fog up, they will adjust at -25 F and IMNSHO are far better than anything Leupold makes (and I've had a few of them, still got a 2-7X on one rifle.
Those Leupold's that froze up were 36X target scopes, my T25 Weaver was OK, as well as Seeley Masker's B&L (look up Seeley Masker, you'll see who I'm referring to).