Good:
Low Price
Excellent Accuracy
Bolt Held Open on Last Shot
Tech Sight available
Light Weight, but 'fixable'
One Finger Bolt Close
Manual Bolt Stop
Not So Good:
Not Drilled and Tapped-'Tip Off' mount
Plastic Stock
Two Hand Magaizine Release
Aluminum Receiver
5 Pound Trigger
Obsolete Sights
Magazine Disassembly Difficult
Magazine Will Not Drop Free
Magazine Disconnector
Magazine Release Too Small and Difficult to Operate
Note: most 'not so goods' are because of the low price, easily correctable.
just my .02 but a magazine disconnector is bad. No dry fire with out a magazine in the rifle. you can either jimmy a mag or remove the disco tab though.
ETA: mags dont drop free either.
Add many of them malfunction if you contact the mag with your arm making good positions more difficult for some shooters. I've seen out of battery malfs with 795's that I've never seen in 10-22's.....O.L.
Relative to the rest of the arms in my possession - That 5lb trigger pull is real nice!
Of those I've tested, my average is around 9lbs...
What's a 'rack-grade' trigger? 6 or 7? For our purposes I wouldn't want to discourage anyone thinking their 5lb pull is heavy.
What I don't care for is the stock, the mag release, and uh, maybe the sight radius.
I'd suggest that of it's short-comings, if not easily corrected, they are certainly easily over-come.
As far as reliability, I've only encountered one that couldn't be attributed to proper maintainence/ammunition. By comparison, rate of malfunction apears to be the same when compared to 10/22's, all other factors being equal. From my own experience, as far as accuracy is concerned the 795 beats out the stock 10/22 on accross the board precision with different ammunition. Seems to be less finnicky.
In setting up a LTR the 795 will save you about a hundred bucks(over the 10/22) use that on ammo, and quality practice, and I highly doubt any short-coming will hold one back.
The out of battery's I run into are usually contributed to a dirty chamber - of my ruger and my marlin - the later definately has the tighter chamber.
Please shooters - Clean your chamber and leave it dry!
The stock is a no brainer. The 795 is the removable magazine version of the tubular magazine Model 60. Buy a Model 60 stock and open it up where it needs it. The other solution is to take off the buttplate and add weight to the stock. Remove the action from stock and add stick on wheel weights to the foreend.
Marty
Bad-Plastic cheezy trigger guard that cracks/splits at the 2 screw holes. A couple tiny washers will sorta fix it.
Be careful not to over-tighten, snug not tight and recheck daily if it is a LTR.
I decided on a few minor mods for mine. I sanded the magwell and now it is easy to "onehand" a mag swap. I bought a spare 7 round mag (like $12) removed the spring and follower, filled it with epoxy, attached 12 inches of orange ribbon and painted it orange, thus creating the "Marlin Dryfire Device". I have a scope on mine so a cheek riser was added too. It is a solid performer with about 7 Appleseeds in the last year on it.
Trigger pull can be improved a little with a cheap mod: replace the trigger return spring with 3 1/2 a floppy disk spring. Notch the guard slightly to keep the leg of the spring from slipping. Other mods can improve it further, but this one is the easiest and will not lighten the hammer or risk ruining a sear. I've done more to my personal rifle, but this is the one I've done to all the loaners.
Magazine release, drop free, better trigger, and cracking: DIProducts ( http://www.diproductsinc.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3603 ) makes a replactment metal trigger guard and trigger that addresses all these issues. Pricey when you consider that the 795 can be had for $75 if sales and rebates align right.
Spare recoil springs: A must have part. It will wear out or kink eventually. Fortunately, it's cheap: http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=444190C&catid=11759
Plastic stock: Replacements can be had on ebay and other locations for as little as $20. Plan on spending another $10 for swivels. For those of us who fund out shooting habitat by dropping buying coffee and bagging lunch, sace $30 and glue some weights (cost $0 - scrap metal + tag ends of caulk tubes) into the void in the forearm and stock. Adds weight, thus reducing wobble. Balance to preference.
Sights: Aftermarket are available. I'm working on a cheap (coffee money) solution that I'll post up in detail if it works.
To address the weight issue, I cut off the head of a very large nail / small spike and epoxied it into the forend. It feels so much better in standing and the weight is not enough to matter otherwise.
The receiver is a magnesium alloy and is considered a throw away rifle.
Quote from: nemohunter on December 15, 2011, 05:26:17 PM
just my .02 but a magazine disconnector is bad. No dry fire with out a magazine in the rifle. you can either jimmy a mag or remove the disco tab though.
ETA: mags dont drop free either.
The magazine disconnect is very easy to remove. It takes less than 5 minutes and is completely reversable. Here is a youtube video explaining how:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx1nnr3l42s&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx1nnr3l42s&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Quote from: douglas34474 on December 16, 2011, 02:47:51 PM
The receiver is a magnesium alloy and is considered a throw away rifle.
The receiver is aluminum, and anytime you want to throw one away, I'll take it. ;)
None of the above should stop someone from buying a 795.
Trigger pull? Try a centerfire battle type rifle and see if its better, most aren't (especially those AR15's). I mean an issue trigger, not the 2 stage match triggers you pay extra for.
Most folks report very good accuracy from the 795's.
Synthetic stock? I've installed my M1A and my shooter M1 Garand in synthetic stocks and neither will ever sit in a wood stock again.
Plastic trigger guard breaks? Buy a piece of flat steel from Lowe's, bend it over/around a pipe or anvil tip on a bench vise, measure, drill your holes, paint it black, bake the paint on, install it and never look back (if you bust the plastic one).
Non-steel receiver? Remember the AR15's, the 10/22's, the Glocks, and many other modern fire arms.
I bought a used 10/22 years before Marlin came out with the 795. If I was buying a .22 rifle today it would be a 795. Then I'd take the money I saved over the 10/22 and buy my Tech Sights, my web sling and lots of practice ammo and have fun.
Don't discount a gun based on experience with only one - people make them (the rifles) and every now and then they ship one out that shouldn't have passed QC.
Don't spend money up front on match parts or accuracy improvements until your skill reaches the point that the rifle (as is) is holding your performance down. The rifle won't learn to shoot better - you will, if you stick with it. At that point the time/money spent making the rifle shoot better will be easy for you to see and use.
If you don't believe it start going to some appleseeds and you'll see someone (sometimes a youngster) with a stock rifle outshoot the guys with the high dollar guns/scopes/ammo. I still get a kick out of those times.
The best AQT I ever shot at 25 meters was with Marlin 795. Less than half the price of a Ruger and a lot more accurate out of the box................ I have two Rugers one with tech sights the other with a 4x fixed on it. I shoot the Marlin almost exclusively. It's just a more accurate rifle. I like to hit what I am aiming at. Hits count.
Casper
Work enough Appleseeds and you will see Remington 15-22s jam, you will see ragged Plinksters run flawlessly, and you will see a Cricket shoot a Rifleman score. I have yet to see a rifle that would not shoot 4 MOA with ammo it likes, and that ammo might be Wolf Extra Match or it might be Federal bulk.
A Rifleman, read instructor, should be able to pick up any rifle on the line and shoot upwards of a 180+ cold. So borrow your buddies rifle, meet other instructors for a rifle swap day, and practice. You will be a better instructor if you know from experience what it takes to shoot a Rifleman score with something other than your personally setup, tricked out, modified rifle.
YHJ
You are correct YHJ.....But kids and ladies, and men for that matter with little experience can not adapt to poorly fitted/functioning rifles. It's hard enough for them to learn the fundamentals without the equipment fighting them. I'm here to help those who need the help, if I can smooth that road, I will by showing, helping, or loaning them equipment that WORKS, until they have the knowledge and experience to do it themselves. This military rack grade surplus mantra is great, these cheap civilian rifles DO NOT fit into that catagory....O.L.
"kids and ladies, and men for that matter with little experience can not adapt"
They can, though, we see them do it all the time.
"rack grade surplus mantra is great, these cheap civilian rifles DO NOT fit into that catagory"
They do, though, we see them do it all the time.
Quote from: SPQR on December 17, 2011, 05:28:43 PM
"kids and ladies, and men for that matter with little experience can not adapt"
They can, though, we see them do it all the time.
"rack grade surplus mantra is great, these cheap civilian rifles DO NOT fit into that catagory"
They do, though, we see them do it all the time.
Yep, and many leave frustrated and never come back...O.L.
I own two 795's with $30 Walmart scopes and these are what I loan out. One has a Dragunov stock because I sawed down the original stock to the swivel studs and swap it out to use as a loaner for kids. Both rifles were treated to the magwell, foam on the stock and trigger treatment. JB weld and a small allen screw does wonders for the trigger take-up and travel. rimfirecentral.com has some good dope on a home-made trigger job. There are some pics of my rifles on another 795 thread here somewhere. BTW, I'd take these over the 10/22 anyday. Much easier to run, not to mention more accurate out of the box.
"many leave frustrated and never come back" Really? REALLY?
Not at our shoots in Indiana. Over twenty shoots I worked this year (thirty in the last 18 months or so) in Indiana, Kentucky, and Illinois and I never saw that. Where are you at that this is happening?
Quote from: SPQR on December 17, 2011, 09:13:01 PM
"many leave frustrated and never come back" Really? REALLY?
Not at our shoots in Indiana. Over twenty shoots I worked this year (thirty in the last 18 months or so) in Indiana, Kentucky, and Illinois and I never saw that. Where are you at that this is happening?
Not at all because we do the "instructor dance", and help fix their gun issues or loan them a good one. We don't fall back on the "learn to deal with it" attitude some have and express here. I have friends and relatives across the country that haven't received the help and guidance they should have. These threads are great because we can't be experts on every rifle type. I don't own a 795 so these threads give me ideas how to help when we see issues with them, and we see plenty......O.L.
I think it's fair to say every rifle has it's advantages/disadvantages and well as long as there is more than one option there will be more than one opinion. As long as there is more than one opinion, there will be disagreement. So, let's not beat this to death, guys.
It is good to know the pros and cons. Especially, for what we instructors can expect to run into on the line. We've gotten to the point that of the .22lrs I see on my lines, Rugers and Marlins now have equal representation. And in my experience(s) both have proven to be of equal reliability, accuracy and overall effectiveness. Both the Ruger 10/22 and the Marlin 795 are perfectly viable Appleseed rifles.
So, let us not allow our own personal preferences interfere with our evaluations.
Assuming it's well maintained and matched with its prefered ammunition - neither rifle will let you down.
Besides, we all know the perfect rifle for an Appleseed is the M1a. ^-^
Quote from: ChuckS on December 16, 2011, 09:14:16 PM
Quote from: douglas34474 on December 16, 2011, 02:47:51 PM
The receiver is a magnesium alloy and is considered a throw away rifle.
The receiver is aluminum, and anytime you want to throw one away, I'll take it. ;)
No sir, the receiver is a magnesium alloy. Call Marlin if you doubt me.
Other than some very minor repairs, try to get a gunsmith to work on the rifle. The repairs will cost more then the rifle is worth. So you use it till it breaks then toss it.
Quote from: AFTERMATH on December 17, 2011, 11:53:19 PM
Besides, we all know the perfect rifle for an Appleseed is the M1a. ^-^
That's what I took to my first Appleseed back in 2006. Great weekend it was, too. Sad to think that only one of the three (edited to change 2 to 3 - mentally thought "two gone" and typed two instead of 3 - I can blame it on old age now ++)) instructors is still in the program and that one isn't very active (to my knowledge). Things change.
Quote from: AFTERMATH on December 17, 2011, 11:53:19 PM
I think it's fair to say every rifle has it's advantages/disadvantages and well as long as there is more than one option there will be more than one opinion. As long as there is more than one opinion, there will be disagreement. So, let's not beat this to death, guys.
I agree. I have 2 Marlin 795 . They have good points and bad points,but so do 10/22's off the rack. That is why there are so many up grades for the 10/22. Over time as more people by 795's, we will see more up grades for them too.
I bought my Marlins for price and accuracy out of box. A lot of new shooters will do the same. If as Instructors we do not like certain rifles. That is our problem not the shooters. We should help them the best we can. If that means over coming the disadvantages of there chosen rifle or offering them a loner rifle. It is our job to help them. Not tell them, that they made a bad chose in rifles!
We all need to do what is best for each shooter. Not what is easier for us!
I think that Old Dog has some good advice.
My major problem with the Marlins is stock length. I'm just not motivated to buy a Model 60 stick and cut a magwell. I would buy a model 70 wooden stock and fit it though.
Right now I have a couple of 10/22's. One that's fitted in a youth stock (and is the first rifle that I cleaned a redcoat with). The other also in a compact stock that I purchased used for $150. If I was buying another loaner it would likely be the 795. While aftermarket parts suck, accurracy does not. And as Old Dog notes, you can take the money that you save and buy tech sights, sling, extra mags and ALOT of ammo.
My newest .22 though is a Remington 540X, single shot, good adjustable trigger, adjustable buttplate, rail for sling and handstop. Off gun broker cost less than a fitted out LTR. I expect it to help me push my High Power standing scores into the mid-90's this season with consistent offhand practice.
Mike
For a loaner, or an inexpensive first rifle for our students- the 795 is my choice. Even if considered a 'throw away', it's going to last a while.
I've seen more 240+ AQT's shot with and out of the box 795 with Tech sights than any other rifle on the line.
sgtmace
Quote from: davecampperry on December 15, 2011, 03:40:03 PM
Not So Good:
Aluminum Receiver
Note: most 'not so goods' are because of the low price, easily correctable.
There is nothing negative about the aluminum/magnesium receiver for either the 795 or the 10/22 I have never seen either one wear out. This is one less thing to rust. The low price of this rifle does not make the higher price of a 10/22 a negative. We are fortunate to have 2 suitable rifles for Appleseed at 2 price points. Either rifle will get the job done for our purposes.
Quote from: oladcock on December 17, 2011, 03:09:20 PM
This military rack grade surplus mantra is great, these cheap civilian rifles DO NOT fit into that catagory....
Either a 10/22 or a 795 do fit the spirit of this however. Since they do not come with suitable factory sights, either Tech-Sights or an optic are an acceptable upgrade. Tech Sights are $70 but a shooter can buy a scope and ring set for less than $20.
Your scope will always walk on the dovetail ring mounts unless you get the right kind of rings. You HAVE to get the kind with a vertical screw. They will not walk. Unless you get this kind, no amount of loctite will cure walking. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Leapers_Accushot_1_Rings_Medium_3_8_Dovetail_4_Screws_Cap/793
One quick and easy way to fix the mag disconnect safety is to simply bend the metal tab up. Easy to do w/o permanently modifying the rifle or screwing around with parts.
BTW, I slap some of my wife's surplus nail polish on all my scope rails, screws, rings etc. Cheap and keeps stuff from walking.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/105_8636.jpg)
Quote from: dart67eb on December 19, 2011, 11:56:19 AM
Your scope will always walk on the dovetail ring mounts unless you get the right kind of rings. You HAVE to get the kind with a vertical screw.
I have 2 795's, one w/ tech sights and 1 w/ simmons 3X9. I bought them for $75 (on sale and $25 rebate.) I cannot begin to contemplate why someone wouldn't buy a couple like I did for Appleseeds, one for me and one for loaner). I Have had issues w/ the tech sights walking because of a bit of quality issues with the grooves. A blotch of clear latex housecaulk stopped that and it was fine with the stock rings from the Simmons. Call me cheap, but 2 rifles for the price of 1 is a deal maker in my book. My eyes wouldn't cut it with the tech sights because of the thin post (plan on getting square sight post) and I scored rifleman this weekend with the scoped 795. Dang fine rifles.
Don't know if you guys saw it or not, but Dick's Sporting Goods (and probably some others) are selling these at $124.95 and then you get a $25 rebate. $100 for a great little plinker!
My .02 on the LTR concept is if you're setting one up for you to use... go with the Marlin. If you're setting up one to use as a loaner that's going to see some hard use, go with the Ruger.
The one problem with the 795 is that the length of pull is to long for small people and surplus stocks to cut down are not very abundant nor are adustable after market stocks.
I was fortunate to find a beater 70 stock to mod. It took a lot of inleting to fit the 795 action however. I am in the process of cutting it down and refinishing it. Trying to find an adjustable butt pad.
All depends on your frame of reference I guess - I've put a 795 into a model 60 stock with what I considered very minor inletting. Lots of good info over at rimfirecentral.com on doing this swap.
And I also heard the opposite gripe about length of pull - peoPle fussing that it was too short! Go figure.