Yes, this is releasable to the public.
And, yes, as I promised, here it is. Too big for the whole thing, so I'll give you the important stuff.
This info can also be found in Frank Barnes 'Cartridges of the World'. No need to burn up your printer.
Here is a drawing and description for the newer M118LR (using the 175 gr SMK) which remains supersonic at 1000 yards and beyond.
Any idea of the propellant for the .30 cal 175g ?
Civilian equivalent?? Since the milspec is probably proprietary.
Quote from: sparks1 on July 03, 2011, 05:00:57 PM
Any idea of the propellant for the .30 cal 175g ?
Civilian equivalent?? Since the milspec is probably proprietary.
For 30'06 you want to push a 175 grain bullet to about 2600 FPS with IMR 4895
I was thinking more on the lines of the .308.
But then I may go with the 155 or 155.5 grain Scenars for 600 yd F class. I read they are pushed at 3000 plus and give little to wind drift. Added benefit is slightly less recoil.
Quote from: sparks1 on July 05, 2011, 08:42:05 AM
I was thinking more on the lines of the .308.
There is widespread speculation about how to replicate the M118LR, and many seem to favor RE15, but the discussion is not settled.
See, for example: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1389145&page=1
44 grains of WC 750 is what's in M118LR ammo.
Quote from: Nickle on July 08, 2011, 04:39:03 PM
44 grains of WC 750 is what's in M118LR ammo.
Thanks! Is 748 a suitable substitute? If not, where can one obtain WC 750?
Quote from: Nickle on July 08, 2011, 04:39:03 PM
44 grains of WC 750 is what's in M118LR ammo.
Nickle
How many Loads are there of m118 ? as the years went by did they not change it every now and again (ie powder and bullet like when it was changed from the old m-72 match bullet to the newer one )
TIA
Wade
Some now claim that when ATK took over operation of the (GOCO) Lake City plant from Olin, they switched the powder in the M118LR to RE15.
If so, this would make the load something we can duplicate, correct?
Quote from: Patent guy on July 09, 2011, 11:33:06 PM
Quote from: Nickle on July 08, 2011, 04:39:03 PM
44 grains of WC 750 is what's in M118LR ammo.
Thanks! Is 748 a suitable substitute? If not, where can one obtain WC 750?
748, Ball-C 2, 4895, WC 844 and WC 846 are all good powders to use in this caliber, and can be used to make this load, BUT THE AMOUNT OF POWDER USED WILL BE DIFFERENT.
I'll say that again, in different words. You can use other powders to make this load, BUT, you must adjust the amount of powder used.
Get your data from a good loading manual, preferably from the powder manufacturer. Hodgdon and Winchester data can be had online, so there's no excuse.
I think WC750 may be available.
Quote from: Wade on July 10, 2011, 01:38:59 AM
Quote from: Nickle on July 08, 2011, 04:39:03 PM
44 grains of WC 750 is what's in M118LR ammo.
Nickle
How many Loads are there of m118 ? as the years went by did they not change it every now and again (ie powder and bullet like when it was changed from the old m-72 match bullet to the newer one )
TIA
Wade
173 gr bullet load is M118, 168 gr bullet load is M852 and the 175 gr bullet load is M118LR.
I'm sure different powders have been used, and there are rumours (I've seen nothing "official") that RE-15 was one of the powders used.
Loading target ammo for the 308, I used to use either 168 gr Sierrra or 150 gr Sierra MatchKing bullets, and used 748 or H4895. You can adjust the powder according to Winchester's or Hodgdon's loading data, and try and see what your rifle prefers. I'll warn you that 748 is heat sensitive, the max load varies seasonally, your winter load may be too hot in the summer. At least that has been my experience.
30 years ago the W748 burned much dirtier than the IMR powders as well.
These days I've pretty much settled on IMR 4895 (some Varget and H4895 used but no improvement seen over IMR 4895).
Keep in mind that your rifle is different from mine and it might really "like" a certain powder/amount better than mine does so trying different powders can be a good idea. I've seen a change to a specific powder and bullet shrink groups in both bolt action and semi auto (different powders and bullets and cartridges) rifles from 3" or worse at 100 yds. (bolt action 30.06) to a 3 shot group a dime would cover up. With my M1A I've shot hand sized groups at 600 yds. with a load that shot great but was too hard on the rifle.
The idea behind "rolling your own" loads isn't just saving money - its making the best performing cartridges possible - for you rifle/handgun.
Yes, but returning to the "USGI specification" theme, if the M24 or M40 are typically set up with optics (e.g., Horus) that predict POI for a 175gr SMK @2600fps, and we want that same kind of "plug-n-play" ability to use issued (or Milspec) ammo, then arriving at a load duplicating the M118LR is a worthy goal.
Worthy or not, that is my goal. :cool2:
Do enough shooting and you'll find that you'll still have to fire and confirm at varying ranges since trajectory (as well as group size can be different for different rifles and different loads - even different lots of supposedly the same loads.)
Those dots are just a starting point.
Good luck with it.
How about the new Mk316 round? Wiki-ped quoth thusly:
7.62 × 51mm MK 316 MOD 0 Special Ball, Long Range:
A 175-grain round consisting of Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point Boat Tail projectiles, Federal Cartridge Company match cartridge cases and Gold Medal Match primers and an undisclosed modified extruded propellant. The 7.62 × 51mm MK 316 MOD 0 Special Ball, Long Range cartridges have an accuracy requirement based around 10-round shotgroups. The Propellant has been verified as IMR 4064 (per NSN 1305-01-567-6944 and Federal Cartridge Company Contract/Order Number N0016408DJN28 and has a charge weight per the specs of 41.745 grains). The average extreme spread for 10-round shotgroups shall be less than or equal to the following values:
600 yd: 7.0 in (first Production Lot). This equates to a ≤ 1.1 MOA requirement at 548.6 m.
300 yd: 3.5 in (after first Production Lot). This equates to a ≤ 1.1 MOA requirement at 274.3 m.
For what its worth
How I am learning to get better at this (excuse the pun) getting the most bang for my bucks
First using milsurp ammo and =reloads of same used to relyably dope the wind and confrim and use it to confrim my come ups , after I am ready I will start using better bullets and loads for finer shooting (even tho loading for such cost more ) yes I do have powder and bullets on hand for this but intell I can equal( or at lest very close) what me Rifle can do with milspec ball ammo at distance what would the point be ? so far 1.7 moa at 1000 yards yes that is the best my Garand will do at 1000 but the group was alittle high and to the right (does not matter that the wind was from 4 directions on 4 wind flags ) and of course that was prone loop sling and GI issue Iron sights MC stle shooting jacket and a wonderfull shooting glove (yea the one I was using for work can buy anywhere a normal leather work glove),,
The point is I need to work on reading and doping the wind better ammo is not going to make me a better shot a better rifle is not going to make me a better shot ,,as a Rifleman I can make myself a better shot by shooting & using my data book and asking questions of those that are better shots then me having another Rifleman couch me as I shoot (and I coach him as he shoots ) I must admit much of the time I want to load up some match grade ammo and fire away ,,,,,,, but what will give me more bang for my bucks.
Wade
Actually, a really accurate bolt gun, match ammo and good optics can teach you a real lot about wind doping.
I learned what I know about wind and mirage while shooting Bench Rest, usually in competition. I've used anywhere from a 13 1/2 lb .222 Rem/.223/.219 Don Wasp/.22 PPC with a 20-25X scope to a 10 lb .30 IHMSA/.308 with a 6X scope. You'll soon learn what wind does to your group size.
Now, the more accurate your group, the quicker you learn, because a wind deflection of a quarter MOA will show quick on a quarter MOA group, compared to that same quarter MOA deflection will show on a 3 or 4 MOA group. The last of those 13 1/2 lb rifles I had, was capable of shooting groups down to .100 MOA (yup, I shot 4 shots of a group in .095" at 100 meters, but got pulled out to .195" by a wind gust). You learn a LOT and you learn it quick.
How this applies to Appleseed is simple. You can learn at shorter distances, IF you use a more accurate rifle. The logic is the wind deflection is easier to detect. Now, shooting out 400 yards and up, you still learn.
Just remember, you can't shoot 2 MOA groups consistently with 4-6 MOA ammo.
Got it ! I had being toying witht hat line of tought but had to wonder .
so Load up something like hornady amax 155 gr with varget or 4895 or h335, I do have some hornady amax 168's to shoot up best bolt rifle I have savage fp 10 tactical 3x9 mil line scope ,,,I also have amax 178s.
Wade
That combo should work real well for learning wind and mirage. Any of those bullets will do for learning, as you can learn a lot about wind shooting at 200-300 yards.
Now, I didn't mention that a real accuarate (as in target rifle) .22 rimfire will also teach you a lot, if used at 100 yards. Yup, I have shot a moderate amount at 100, using my Rem 513T and a 20X Lyman Superspot scope. That was when I was in my early teens (56 now), and we no longer have that scope (but do have the rifle still).
Ah yes that .22 most I have done with a .22 is 200 yards at virtue flat (baker city OR ) Buck also told me that the .22 is a great way of learning windage I belive Bald Dragon has the dope on it for come ups and windage corrections some where on this fourm ,,I just do not remember where :wall: but I think all that can be found at www.rimfire central.com
I did not get out to 300 that day as the wind came up so much it was moving the rifle(and shooter) around .
Thank you much for the reminder .
Wade
All of those are great places to look for 308 accuracy. I found happiness with the newer Alliant 2000 MR ball powder and IMR 8208 under the 178 Amax. Good accuracy in many rifles.
I have just had an opportunity to shoot a 308 with real LC M118LR and the newer version at 200 to 1100 yards in a variety of wind conditions while being schooled in wind doping and learned enough in one long weekend to begin F class with some confidence.
The near-term practical take-away was the basis for a recipe using Varget (weight TBD) 175 SMK and once-fired LC match brass (and some LC 118LR brass for comparison).
Once I figure out which load gets me close to 2600FPS at sea level with a small velocity spread, I'll post the load here.
Hi folks, I have now developed a few ersatz or work-alike recipes for homemade M118LR, one using W748 (ball) powder and another using Varget (stick) powder, each with SMK 175s and Lake city "match" brass. I have data for samples loaded with real "LC LR" M118LR brass, also. The loads were worked up in a Rem700 rifle used to measure speeds of "real" M118LR, so I have some basis for concluding that these handloads will shoot to about the same point of impact as the tested lot of "real" M118LR. The goal was to replicate "issue" ammo instead of making something with a "jump" optimized for my rifle, so I loaded for an OAL of between 2.80" and 2.83" (per the drawing) and the "note 7" 30 cal datum is about 2.27." The preferred load in the more common LC match brass was 43.6gr of Varget (but you have to work up your own in your rifle...use at your own risk...YMMV, etc) and I was told to use PMC (Russian) LRM primers by a trusted expert, so I did. Of course, I may still want to experiment... :DH:
IMR 4895 is the classic powder for the .30 cal M2 & M72, and the 7.62 M80 & M118LR rounds. The Mk316 Mod 0 ammunition uses IMR 4064.
IMR 3031 in 7.62/.308 Win delivers respectable accuracy with 168 gr SMK and is reputed to have been used by Federal in their Gold Medal Match (.308 Win).
The M14 forum and Team M14 forum both have tons of information as well as the CMP forums.
I'm "experimenting" with IMR 3031 for the 150 gr bullets, IMR 4895 for the 165/168 gr Sierras and IMR 4064 for 175 gr SMK. So far all the tests show I need more practice.
-Crowbar