In preparing for an upcoming Appleseed I plan to attend, I decided to practice without the sling. I have found that this forces me to focus on finding solid position to have stability. I now realize that I have relied on the sling to overcome certain problems I have had in the shooting positions, especially the sitting and standing positions.
I hope you practiced outside in the cold and rain, because that's what it's looking like Sunday is going to be out at Miamisburg (if that's where ya happen to be going... Sorry for the sarcasm!) ;D. Either way, kudos on fixing any probs.
Well done. I believe 110% in the value of the properly rigged sling as a stability aid when time and/or venue rules allow it. However, I credit elements of the Highpower unsupported standing position with my progress as both instructor and shooter of the standing position as taught at Appleseed.
Quote from: barbie_bedel on November 29, 2011, 06:39:06 PM
I hope you practiced outside in the cold and rain, because that's what it's looking like Sunday is going to be out at Miamisburg (if that's where ya happen to be going... Sorry for the sarcasm!) ;D. Either way, kudos on fixing any probs.
The cold and the rain, or better yet snow, are what makes the shoots fun.
On a separate note, it may prove worth while to have the shooters practice finding npoa without a sling at every event.
While you won't see it with the .22's when you get to a .30 caliber centerfire you'll find that sling really helps speed up your recovery from recoil.
Set yourself up right and that rifle front sight will drop right back down on the target.
Wouldn't the point of impact be different without a sling because of the tension?
Roland
The POI could change, how much depends on the rifle itself (type and set up).
Slings, used properly, can help many people shoot better. If you're the type who works out and works out with your rifle the sling is something that won't help you as much as it helps someone like me. ;)
Will you guys quit talking about snow! We are not having any snow! Just last weekend we had 65+ and sunny weather. We were out there in our T-shirts. THE SAME WILL APPLY THIS WEEKEND!!!
I ordered nice weather in the shoot box and it's been shipped from Ramseur. I will bring it with me on Saturday.
As for the issue posted... a sling - or anything else - can be used as a crutch (no offense, Ishy) to overcome some other issue you're having. But, that doesn't mean you should scrap that tool just to help you learn the other stuff. For instance, you wouldn't scrap your rear sight just so you can become better at focusing on the front sight.
You should practice the same way you plan on playing. If you're going to use a sling when you get out there and shoot for real, then use a sling when you practice.
Carding the sights is a good example of "taking something out of the equation" without scrapping it entirely. Much in the same way, when you shoot sitting or standing you should still line up and verify your NPOA while keeping that sling snug.
If you're ONLY using the sling then you're not truly aligning your NPOA with your target. You've been cheating!
While scrapping the sling will force you to better align NPOA and build a better position, why limit yourself? Do you not shoot better WITH a sling?
It sounds like you've identified the problem, but the fix is not one I'd recommend for the entire group of shooters. We have several instructors who've challenged themselves by shooting "weak side" AQTs and rifles such as the Cricket and AK-47s, etc. That technique has absolutely made them better shots. But, we'd never do that to the whole group, would we?
I do not think that we should abandon the sling but practicing without it may be beneficial.
Snow would mean that the Winterseed patch would be given to any that make Rifleman.
Quote from: Garand on November 30, 2011, 03:19:55 PMI do not think that we should abandon the sling but practicing without it may be beneficial.
I don't see how it's beneficial. The issue isn't that the sling is there... the issue is you're doing something else wrong.
May I ask what it was that you were/weren't doing that you diagnosed once you practiced without the sling?
Quote from: Garand on November 30, 2011, 03:19:55 PMSnow would mean that the Winterseed patch would be given to any that make Rifleman.
That is only IF the Shoot Boss has any to give!
I should also add - I'll have a couple extra Orange Hats with me as well. I hear tell there's a few individuals at this shoot who are going to jump a pesky hurdle and then become more involved. Huzzah!
The blue patch will set off the orange hat nicely!
Quote from: slim on December 01, 2011, 09:42:13 PM
Quote from: Garand on November 30, 2011, 03:19:55 PMI do not think that we should abandon the sling but practicing without it may be beneficial.
I don't see how it's beneficial. The issue isn't that the sling is there... the issue is you're doing something else wrong.
May I ask what it was that you were/weren't doing that you diagnosed once you practiced without the sling?
Quote from: Garand on November 30, 2011, 03:19:55 PMSnow would mean that the Winterseed patch would be given to any that make Rifleman.
That is only IF the Shoot Boss has any to give!
In the standing position, I normally carry the weight of the rifle in my left hand. I have found that carrying the weight with my right hand and using the left had as a platform(I must admit that I had seen this technique in a WWII training film awhile back but I do not remember using it) results in a steadier position(this may explain the poor groups in stage 1 of the AQT). I generally use the open legged sighting position for stage 2 since that position is more useful in the field. Until now, I have not been able to get my support arm were it properly supported the rifle like the I do in prone. I figured that this was inherent in the position or a result of the size and shape of my body.
Try practicing the position first without the rifle. This will help you to get the body mechanics right. Next, add the rifle (with or without sling. Finally add everything else (jacket if you use it, sling etc).
This is the method taught by the Army Markmanship Unit and many coaches.
When it comes to the sling, it is seldom that a shooter's sling is exactly right. You correct this by setting up, shooting a group. Then loosening the sling (if a web by .5 inches to 1 inches) and if a leather 1907 by one notch) and shooting a group and then the same thing tightening the sling. It really can make a significant difference.
Feel free to contact me by PM or email (in my profile) if you want to discuss specific issues.
Mike
Getting into a position, or being comfortable in it is often just a matter of "practice". Getting your body used to being bent/twisted/compressed and used to the position.
It would be nice to call me "a somewhat heavy" person. I could stand to lose 60 lbs. easy and I still wouldn't be down to my weight when I left the Army. I have dozed off in the sitting position before. I can fall asleep slung up with my rifle in the prone position.
Why? Because I cannot kneel (without chancing poking a screw through the sking below my right knee and hurting like you wouldn't believe if I so much as bump it on something) so I sit to work on cars, lawnmowers, etc. Everything I have to do down low I have to do sitting, so my body is used to being in the cross legged sitting position.
Oh, I also like to wear loose fitting clothing and that helps, too, when you're trying to get into a good sitting position. Just practice. You can do it in the middle of the living room floor while watching TV.
+1 on working on the seated position first without the rifle. That made all the difference for me.
For me it is like solving one of those brain teaser puzzles where you have to move and shift and squeeze things around, and the rifle and the sling really complicate the geometry and make it much harder to solve.
Starting without a rifle, for me, also applied to the transitions. A good bit of my "dry fire" is done without a rifle, just getting in and out of the seated position, working on the logic, doing it slow, and trying to figure out how to do it better, and then committing it to muscle memory. (It also makes for a good exercise program!)
In the seated position, I had a real problem with the rifle basically pointing into the ground, and not being able to get any elevation. I discovered that snugging the sling up pulls my support hand (which is resting against the swivel, as per the old b&w instructional films) back and raises the point of aim.
Initially, I think I was running my sling way too loose; once I got that support hand out there by the swivel, and the sling snugged up to pull the it back to provide the appropriate elevation, I could feel myself "snapping in" to the position like I was seeing on some of the YouTube videos. Before there was not much "snapping".
As I am a rank beginner and more or less learning by experience, if any of the experienced shooters have any feedback on this, I'm all ears (and why I really like these forums).
Quote from: Garand on December 01, 2011, 11:24:15 PMIn the standing position, I normally carry the weight of the rifle in my left hand. I have found that carrying the weight with my right hand and using the left had as a platform(I must admit that I had seen this technique in a WWII training film awhile back but I do not remember using it) results in a steadier position(this may explain the poor groups in stage 1 of the AQT).
Have you been using loop or hasty in standing?
Quote from: Garand on December 01, 2011, 11:24:15 PMI generally use the open legged sighting position for stage 2 since that position is more useful in the field. Until now, I have not been able to get my support arm were it properly supported the rifle like the I do in prone. I figured that this was inherent in the position or a result of the size and shape of my body.
While it could be a combination of your body and position, most likely your sling is not adjusted properly. If you couldn't get your support arm where it needed to go, your sling was probably too tight. Did you loosen your sling a little when going from prone to sitting?
As jmdavis and Old Dog have pointed out, practice is the key to good positions. Try what jmdavis said. Get in position without the rifle or anything and then add stuff as you go. Ideally, you'll be in the same position with all your stuff as you will without it. It takes practice and it takes some work, but you can get there.
We'll really work on your position this weekend, conentrating on the sling. We'll get this straightened out!
Inside of Mike's comment is a really useful tool I have been using when I coach and that is shooting a group with your sling set up your way then shooting groups with it an inch tighter and an inch looser. Its actually a trick I heard for the first time sitting in a barber shop talking with an ancient Marine who was shocked people still used slings to shoot. Students on the line have not shown a great deal of improvement with that technique, probably because the sling is so new to them, but some have had watershed moments of clarity with that trick. In particular are Orange Hats who are moving into .30 cal for the first time. This drill is incredibly useful for showing them the roll of sling tension in their shooting. Almost everyone who uses it ends up taking an inch and a half or more out of their normal seated sling position.
Quote from: slim on December 02, 2011, 10:12:48 AM
Quote from: Garand on December 01, 2011, 11:24:15 PMIn the standing position, I normally carry the weight of the rifle in my left hand. I have found that carrying the weight with my right hand and using the left had as a platform(I must admit that I had seen this technique in a WWII training film awhile back but I do not remember using it) results in a steadier position(this may explain the poor groups in stage 1 of the AQT).
Have you been using loop or hasty in standing?
Quote from: Garand on December 01, 2011, 11:24:15 PMI generally use the open legged sighting position for stage 2 since that position is more useful in the field. Until now, I have not been able to get my support arm were it properly supported the rifle like the I do in prone. I figured that this was inherent in the position or a result of the size and shape of my body.
While it could be a combination of your body and position, most likely your sling is not adjusted properly. If you couldn't get your support arm where it needed to go, your sling was probably too tight. Did you loosen your sling a little when going from prone to sitting?
As jmdavis and Old Dog have pointed out, practice is the key to good positions. Try what jmdavis said. Get in position without the rifle or anything and then add stuff as you go. Ideally, you'll be in the same position with all your stuff as you will without it. It takes practice and it takes some work, but you can get there.
We'll really work on your position this weekend, conentrating on the sling. We'll get this straightened out!
I use the hasty sling in the standing position.
jmdavis, Old Dog,
Thanks for the advice. If I have time before the next shoot, I will practice without the rifle.
SPQR
Quote from: SPQR on December 02, 2011, 11:07:30 AM
Inside of Mike's comment is a really useful tool I have been using when I coach and that is shooting a group with your sling set up your way then shooting groups with it an inch tighter and an inch looser. Its actually a trick I heard for the first time sitting in a barber shop talking with an ancient Marine who was shocked people still used slings to shoot. Students on the line have not shown a great deal of improvement with that technique, probably because the sling is so new to them, but some have had watershed moments of clarity with that trick. In particular are Orange Hats who are moving into .30 cal for the first time. This drill is incredibly useful for showing them the roll of sling tension in their shooting. Almost everyone who uses it ends up taking an inch and a half or more out of their normal seated sling position.
Why does tightening then loosening the sling help?
In prone when you have your position down, the sling will be the force preventing you from relaxing into a puddle on the mat. As such it needs to be adjusted correctly. I found that I should 1-1.5 MOA tighter after adjusting my sling.
In sitting, the sling may need to be loosened to prevent canting. It is preferable to do this rather than pull the rifle with the firing hand to alleviate cant.
The bottom line is that what is comfortable in practice is not always "best" at the range.