Project Appleseed

So oldfudd and I were talking, and we got to thinking it'd be good to have a single point of reference for cleaning up the Bess repros we got for show and tell. He's been doing black powder stuff for a while, so I'll let him take over with any advice he has.

In the meantime, here's a letter one of our other folks got from Loyalist Arms, a commercial importer for the factory we ordered from:

QuoteThanks for yuor email.

The stock is made of Rosewood. It is very similar in grain to walnut, but it is more expensive , & harder and should last longer.

2ND BROWN BESS LOAD DATA:

You will notice that the frizzen has some scratches in it. We personally test all these guns to make sure they spark well.

Proof test the barrel with 150 grains of FFG BLACKPOWDER ONLY and a ball.
We strongly recommend when you proof test the barrel, to not fire it from your shoulder,
but in a proper fixture. All muzzle loading firearms should be proof tested.

The recommended Max. charge is 75-80 grains FFG black powder or less with a ball.
For blank loads, heavier charges can certainly be used.

You will have to thoroughly clean the barrel of the gun.

The caliber is .76 and round ball of .735  with over ball paper wadding must be used, should you decide to fire live ammo and not blanks.
Do not patch the ball tightly, simply use the wadding on top of the ball.

A word of caution: Never dry fire or snap a flintlock with an open frizzen ( flint must be in cock jaws.).

Flint size 1"


PLEASE NOTE:
This loading/proofing data applies to Loyalist Arms muskets only.
Loyalist Arms assumes no responsibility for damage or injury if this data is used on other manufacturers

And here's a link to a place on drilling them live:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgHowTo/DrillTouchHole/touchholedrill.pdf


It will be some time before I can get to cleaning mine up to make it look more like the originals for show and tell, but if anyone else wants to step up, please feel free. :)

OK, let me start with first things first.  I totally disassembled the musket.  The lock comes out easily with 2 screws, the trigger housing too.  To get the barrel out of the stock, you need to remove the tang screw, the upper sling swivel AND all of the stock through pins with a small punch.  Only then will the barrel release from the stock (I think there are about 4 attachment points along the barrel that are pinned (1 of which is held in by the upper swivel screw).

The biggest problem I encountered is with the lock itself.  I totally disassembled it using a mainspring vise I had, and found all parts to be very dirty, and apparently never cleaned after manufacture (including metal slivers, grime, etc.).  Plus, when assembled after manufacture, no lube/grease had been used.  In addition, the bridle on mine was  bent enough to prevent the tumbler and hammer from going to full cock.  If you've never disassembled a lock like this, take notes, but it is not too difficult to see how everything works.  The only difficult area might be in reassembling the mainspring and frizzen spring if you don't have a mainspring vise (mine is Civil War era, or 45-70 era).  I think vise grips would work OK, though.

When you have the lock apart, I'd recommend you do the following things:  deburr all the pieces using a fine toothed file or even wet/dry paper (light use by a dremel is OK too).  If not deburred, things will hang up.  Next, you need to make sure on the lock plate the the area under the (rotating) tumbler is smooth.  Mine had a welded area that was pretty rough.  Again, you can use a fine toothed file to do this, followed by polishing with wet/dry paper. 

When the musket is apart, you might want to remove any surface rust (mine had a little in some places) with a Scotch brite pad or wet/dry paper.  This will also remove any highly polished areas -- I want mine to be bright, but not polished.  I then carefully removed all the brass furniture from the stock for polishing and general clean up.  Note:  the butt plate is held on with 2 screws and a through pin at the top.

Reassemble the lock -- I used gun grease to lube all parts that rub against the lock plate.  Also check that parts that move against the lock plate are flat, and not bowed or otherwise bent.  When done, everything should work without undue resistance.  Don't be too discouraged when you find that the "precision" doesn't match Volquartsen standards.   **)  Things are pretty sloppy.

This is about all I've done to date.  I'll next try to dye my stock a medium walnut color and buff the brass pieces to make them smooth and pretty.  I'll try to scrounge up a proper flint, and drill the flash hole.

Eventually I'll "proof" the barrel after I mooch a couple of round balls from my Skirmisher friends that shoot smooth bores.

I'll keep my progress posted.  If anybody has problems with the lock, feel free to PM me (oldfudd).  I'm not an expert or a gunsmith, but have some knowledge about early locks.  Disclaimer:  I wrote this from memory, so use common sense in disassembly as I may have forgotten to mention something, or my count (# of screws, pins etc.) may be incorrect.  If it doesn't move under a reasonable amount of force, you've probably missed something.

Dick Gapen (oldfudd)

Something I just noticed -- after reading the link to drilling the flash hole.  As best as I can tell, the breech plugs on our muskets are not easily removed.  I figure the way around this is to measure inside the bore from muzzle to where the breech plug is encountered.  Shouldn't be too difficult, but I'll comment after I've drilled my flash hole.  (Wish me luck.)

Dick

You'd be amazed at what some 0000 steel wool with a few drops of light oil will do when rubbed over a rusty spot.  I've never had it remove bluing or parkerizing but it gets the rust.  If you could have seen that old Browning Auto 5 before I worked it over you wouldn't believe its the same gun I took pictures of.

I've never used anything but 3n1 oil on a rag to wipe off guns and they don't rust when stored away in cases, even when stored for 8 or 10 years - as long as you don't put them in a wet case or let the case get wet, etc. 

I've never owned a black powder gun (most likely never will) but it you're going to shoot them (ball or blanks) be sure to read up on how to clean to remove the corrosive material left behind when using black powder.  It will destroy a barrel pretty quickly in humid/moist conditions.

Mine should be here tomorrow. I've tried buying black powder and no one carries it. Would Pyrodex work? I'd think it would, will just have to work up a load.....O.L.

You know, after thinking about, if I had a reproduction like these I'd be really tempted to degrease the metal parts that you can't see (back side of the parts that fit into the stock or against the wood) and paint them with some type of good primer and paint to help keep down the possibility of rust where you can't see it every day.

OL, pyrodex is supposed to a black powder substitute but I don't know how the amounts per shot compare.

Pyrodex for rifles will work fine. The thing to remember is with BP or Pyrodex loads are expressed as grains, but are really measured in volume. So, if you have a powder measure that is marked for 50 grains - that would be correct in either BP or Pyrodex. I'm not sure what a typical load would be for a Bess, I shoot 90 grains of Pyrodex with a .50 round ball in my rifle.

The problem you may run in to, is getting a good powder to prime with. BP is sold as "F", "FF", etc... and these designations tell you how fine the powder is. Coarsest powder for cannon, finest for priming (PRIMING ONLY) flintlocks. Do not use anything but rifle powder inyour barrel, and ONLY use BP or Pyrodex.

The likely problem with pyrodex will be in the pan. Most flint shooters use BP (2F in the barrel) and 3 or 4F in the pan. If the pyrodex doesn't work there are BP distributors that will ship it (with a $25 Hazmat charge).

In your area a good bet would be Track of the Wolf. In the East, Powder Valley and Dixie are good. If in VA, Bob's Sports in Richmond, Clark Brothers in Warrenton and Back Creek up in Winchester all stock BP. Back Creek has several manufactureres and granulations (from canon to 4F).

If you plan to shoot these, I would suggest that you do some reading on Loyalist and Middletsex on the various Rev War forums. They are a resource that can be very helpful. One area to be careful of is the breech.

Also, Ken Guy has some photos for a proof tester at the following URL, it will give you ideas on how to proof your barrel.   http://www.tennesseehogrifle.com/Gun_Building_Tools.php

You don't want to be holding the gun when you proof it.

Good luck on using pyrodex or other substitute in a flintlock.
I have tried.
Ignition will be problematical as they are designed for percussion ignition.
One could mix in some BP with the substitute for better ignition.
I just stick with BP for flinting.

I've done percussion muzzle loading for many years so no doubt many of the same rules apply. I see Hodgdons makes an FFG BP substitute. Primer powder shouldn't be a problem, all you need is a mortal and pestle! :)...O.L.

I've tried Pyrodex but am not too happy with it versus real black powder.  For a source of black powder, you might see if a "skirmisher" lives in your neck of the woods.  The North-South Skirmish Association is a national group, and have shoots all over the country.  Although they don't use flint locks, they do use percussion caps and black powder.  You can find a lot of information about N-SSA online.  Their web site is: www.n-ssa.org.

The problem with obtaining black powder is that the BATF requires it to be stored separately from smokeless powder in a special bunker ('cause BP is an explosive, and smokeless is a propellant   :bow:  :bow:  :bow:).  Too many regulations and rules for most gunshops to be bothered for relatively small sales.

Oh, one IMPORTANT point using black powder -- do NOT use a regular smokeless powder dispenser to meter it out.  The dispenser could create a spark from friction or static electricity and detonate black powder.  Only use a dipper, or a special black powder dispenser (using only non-sparking materials) for black powder.

Good luck, and be careful.

Dick

Yep, that's what our local shops say. I think they (BATF) is splitting hairs in trying to boil the frog. Now how do we make Pyrodex smoke more? :)....O.L.

Bezon Kaylee,

*hands on hips*.....girl friend!
brick dust......would be correct....iffin you have a mind to be PC....... >:D

I see some good thoughts,.....yet *my 2 cents*...short abridged version
I have had NO issues with BP.....iffin ya use BP....and correctly clean....(perfer 3f hogdens)(I burn 25lbs a year minimum! in just the rifle)
rifles or smoothbore, 2f lots of fouling iffin yer doin blanks, does better if naked/or patched ball is used,
ya ya I see they ask fer paper wad over....works also, iffin yer gonna make cartridges, want the pattern? its on FF (barraks)
with that said, no fouling with 3f, its just a better burn.....your choice....this ain't FF if you know what I mean!
Also, marketing wise you can get "re-enactor" powder for $5. a pound, and using a "wooden" dowel grind yer own 2/3f......for demo....(save the good stuff for hunting) I make 8f for pan...WOW quick ignition!..yet change prime daily...wicks moisture out of the air
that new fangal-ed "garbage"(BP SUBstitute)...(My humble opinion) is the idea of some San Fran fag.
Their are reasons for using the "real" stuff......that go beyond ballistics,

you know my addy, Iffin ya want a novel,  (forcing me to type)....(lets not get into speling)
so if not me, JMD is a wise ol coot....or harp at the "other" haunts....FF/TMF/TMA ect.


"flint in jaws"..."wooden"...sub for alignment works well also.....
but correct, dropping the hammer without flint OR without frizzen closed IS BAD JUJU!
you will break the hammer............see g gedney godwin $1. ea.
bess's also prefer "lead in jaws" as apossed to leather.....try and judge for your self

you ordered from loyalist?......ok for India repros- dam fine people also......
for demos and show n tell they'll give you good service.....frizzen will loose its temper(hardness)
doesn't have enough carbon in the metal........

So "Jen" you have a nice winter season...at the top of the world...call if you want to talk,
and any friend of yours is mine also......

wohdoh nah
asminuteman/ken doyle /truculentturtle

so what ya git fer the gift exchange? @FF..........
until the next campfire

This will be my first foray into the BP world.

Thanks to Kaylee for setting this up and to the rest of you for putting this info on here. Keep it coming!

Quote from: Old Dog on November 16, 2011, 06:34:08 AM
You know, after thinking about, if I had a reproduction like these I'd be really tempted to degrease the metal parts that you can't see (back side of the parts that fit into the stock or against the wood) and paint them with some type of good primer and paint to help keep down the possibility of rust where you can't see it every day.

OL, pyrodex is supposed to a black powder substitute but I don't know how the amounts per shot compare.

Bezon Sir,

Couple of thoughts if I may, "paint" is a 20th century, band aid, when it comes to BP stuff.
yer correct to think of the "inner"or under sides of "metal" parts you wont see everyday. O0
yet, odd as it seams those places need to "breath"...use mink oil.....(from T.O.W.).
also, taking the barrel out of a stock, to offen, WILL loosen barrel pins, yielding a "flawed weapon".
(read between the lines on that one) :cool2

And as to "degrease" for BP......I seen and tried some folks "homemade" recipes for inside the barrel.
seam to me to have more rust begin! dam Colonials were some cleaver folks, natural stuff was used for many reasons. Now with all that said: you can do the things yer thinking, and it will work...for a time....probably the life of your ownership.......but it is just as easy and QUITE a bit cheaper to do it the "old" fashion way......... warm water(free)tad bit of soap(kitchen dude)....mink oil  ($5. large tin) sweet oil (olive oil/in the kitchen) and throw away cloth garments for patches.......yer bonus...its FASTER.....
you just need to see it done, I've seen some utube stuff out there, didn't pay much mind,cause I know how.....my bad

good luck to you
your most humble and obedient servent

wohdoh nah
-k

Quote from: slim on November 16, 2011, 01:25:35 PM
This will be my first foray into the BP world.

Thanks to Kaylee for setting this up and to the rest of you for putting this info on here. Keep it coming!

Bezon slim,
yes SIR! Kaylees a great soul, you'd like her iffin ya git the chance to meet her!....I did *w*@ J

There are many knowledgeable folks here, when it comes to BP, and period weaponry.
Although you and I have never spoken before , feel free to call upon myself for questions.
"All I need to know is that your an appleseeder".........rather kewl quote don'tca think?

-k

My favorite homemade BP solvent is:

1 Pint Murphy's Oil Soap
1 Pint Hydrogen Peroxide
3 Pints rubbing alcohol
Fill the jug up with cheap windshield washer fluid

I've used it for years without any rust or corrosion problems.  It isn't flammable, won't eat the paint off the floor, doesn't smell too bad, won't harm the stock, and is cheap.  I usually mix up about a gallon a year.  It will, however, sting like crazy if you've got cuts on your hands.

Something else you'll need to consider is a breech plug scraper to get the built up carbon off the breech plug (since I don't think the breech plug is removable).  A wire bore brush won't reach the flat end of the plug.  The scraper is simply a short metal cylinder (a little less than the diameter of the bore) with a horizontal bar across one end, and a threaded hole to attach a ramrod or cleaning rod on the other end.  All you do is slam it down the bore until it reaches the end, rotate it a little while smacking it against the breech plug, and then rotate it to scrape accumulated carbon build up from the breech plug.  Then dump the loosened carbon out of the bore.

After using the above solvent, be sure to dry and oil the bore - otherwise it will rust as the solvent effectively removes all oil too.

Dick

You know, my father-in-law told me a tale about taking a muzzle loader barrel, making a tight hickory wood plug for each end of it, driving the plug into the breech and muzzle ends and covering it up in a large (shovelled it up to get enough) pile of pretty fresh cow dung and letting it sit for a period of time (don't remember the number of days).  He said it made the most beautiful brown finish on the metal you could imagine once the stuff in the cow stuff did its magic.  All he had to do was clean off the cow stuff, remove the hickory wood plugs and wipe it down with an oily rag.

Its another one of those things I'll never try to do.

Quote from: oldfudd on November 16, 2011, 06:05:59 PM

Something else you'll need to consider is a breech plug scraper to get the built up carbon off the breech plug (since I don't think the breech plug is removable).

Is the plug welded?

breech plug is removable.....but HIGHLY not recommended!     

Fouling scraper,....the carbon build up, and/or fouling et al, is an issue related to granual size of powder used-load volume-burn of charge and mantainance of the peice, you should have one (scraper) yet thats a band aid fix to other underlying issues.       

a good quaility jag(correct size among other things) is the most vital equipment

Bezon oldfudd,        *tip of the tricorn*
that mix you speak of, I've tried something simular to it....and yes its not bad.       

-k           

I was just afraid that the plug was welded and that brings up all kinds of not so good thoughts for me.

Having built a few kits and breached a barrel or two, I would have to agree with the "not recommended" warning. Traditionally a barrel would only be unbreached to refresh the rifling (not an issue with a smoothbore Bess), fix a burnt out touch hole with a liner (normally poured platinum or gold), or to salvage the barrel for other purposes (VERY common in the early days of the country and common up until the 1940's or so in the Mountains of Appalachia).

Bezon  JMD,

how are yee- these days!......
yep I agree with ya! (re:barrel plug)...I've delt with a few (loyalist arms India repros)
early ones were welded.....even now folks have unknowingly welded as a fix....
Those repros are safe enough for what their going to be used fer.....
If they care for them, those repros will give years of safe and relyable service to their owners.
its a good soild BP learning experience........(with that said) wouldn't hunt or trust my life to one.
yet to teach with......ok

Did ya note on their load recommendation the "75-80gr" ......funny the "real" ones being fired at us were loaded at 120gr!......heck I never load my .62 under 90gr! (behind ball).....I admit to 75-120gr depending on just how LOUD~n~smokey I want the blank to be in parades.........*L*
*anit I a stinker*

you be safe, have a grand holiday season with family
yer most humble and obedient servent
-k
pvt 11th Virginia

Mine got here tonight, looks great! My wife likes it but I think she was more hoping the bayonet was with it! Should I be worried? :) Historically, were these typically browned? Will get started cleaning her up tomorrow...O.L.

Quote from: oladcock on November 17, 2011, 12:07:37 AM
Mine got here tonight, looks great! My wife likes it but I think she's more interested in the bayonet! Should I be worried? :) Historically, were these typically browned? Will get started cleaning her up tomorrow...O.L.

Bezon oladcock,
NO...not blued or browned

gleming, bright shiney metal !
cleaning and polishing was done with brick dust......

congrats on yer charcoal puffer...I hope she serves you well

-k

Got mine apart, yep, rough and dirty! I'll take it one step at a time, buff up all the brass and I think I'll replace all the steel pins with brass. K&S racks at your local hardware stores has multiple sizes. I marked the spot for the flash hole before disassembly and preliminary measurement looks like it might hit the breach plug? If not it'll be darned close.

Question???? I expected the frizzen to be rough like a file, it's not. Is that normal? Or should I rough it up with something like 40 grit?....O.L.

Quote from: oladcock on November 17, 2011, 03:21:03 PM
Got mine apart, yep, rough and dirty! I'll take it one step at a time, buff up all the brass and I think I'll replace all the steel pins with brass. K&S racks at your local hardware stores has multiple sizes. I marked the spot for the flash hole before disassembly and preliminary measurement looks like it might hit the breach plug? If not it'll be darned close.

Question???? I expected the frizzen to be rough like a file, it's not. Is that normal? Or should I rough it up with something like 40 grit?....O.L.

Bezon oladcock,

My suggestion,
-leave the steel pins, and do-not replace
-flash hole supposed to close to the bottom of the charge (hence close to the breech plug)
-do-not ruff up the frizzen(no its not suppose to be like a file)

clean - de-burr - polish - lubricate.....AND ABOVE ALL ENJOY

keep askin if you have questions
-k

"-leave the steel pins, and do-not replace"

Why? Strength certainly isn't an issue.

Yep, I know the flash hole should be close but this looks like it's going to go into the plug......O.L.

Bezon OL,

"pins".... more of a hardness issue
-brass is softer then steel,
-would you get the exact same dia..or just would they be "similar" (made in India mind you)
-your asking "whats" correct......answer is steel, not brass
-removing pins to much loosens the barrel, by opening up the holes in the wood
-to remove pins, you need a punch, to push them out....(made of steel) back to brass is softer
which one of the metals will deform first?....so we're quickly back to the 1st point brass is soft.
-brass being softer then steel, Which do you feel will hold the barrel tighter in the stock?
and not deform from normal use and the accidental love from handling?

this can go on ...I'm sure you got the jist
you can do as you want (not calling ya out here/its not a gottca moment)(folks have asked for advice from us experienced with flint firearms (firelocks to be correct))
I've been heavily involed in flinters for darn near 40yrs now.......so like the barrel plug statement in a past post.
"you can do it - but its HIGHLY NOT recommended"


I hope this points toward an answer
-k

*touch hole/barrel plug*
you do have a ram rod?
(*curious question* do they give ya  a wood or steel ramer?)....makes a difference as to which model bess only..........don't fret....My curious george moment
even within the long land(1st model) there were variations

you can drop it down the barrel (ringing the barrel) and use it for a "measuring tape"..I'm sure you did or something simular.
did they give instructions for placement of touch hole?, being as if it a functiuon of heat NOT fire to transfer through the hole to set of the charge.....it needs to be low in the pan.
theres a guy, right now on another forum, whos rather expencive rifle is trashed because of this exact problem.......

anyway

Quote from: Old Dog on November 16, 2011, 07:08:46 PMcovering it up in a large (shovelled it up to get enough) pile of pretty fresh cow dung and letting it sit for a period of time

Moist coffee grounds will also do the trick.

Unless you have enough of your own BS I'd recommend the coffee!

ASM, "*touch hole/barrel plug*
you do have a ram rod?
(*curious question* do they give ya  a wood or steel ramer?)....makes a difference as to which model bess only..........don't fret....My curious george moment
even within the long land(1st model) there were variations"

Came with a steel and yes, that's what I did was measure with the ramrod. I got a piece of alluminum rod to get a more precise measurement (round end of the ramrod hard to line up) and with the flash hole drilled in the center bottom of the pan, it will be dead center at the end on the breech plug. In other words, 1/2 of the bit will hit the plug. That'll probably work, just don't like the idea of the drill bit hitting the plug but moving it forward and up, it won't be in the bottom of the pan.

Busy now cleaning and polishing all the brass parts, going to touch up the stock and tung oil the heck out of it over the next several days. Don't know what oil/finish they have on it but it's soft and gummy. I enjoy this kind of work so no biggy....O.L.

Quote from: oladcock on November 17, 2011, 08:43:35 PM
ASM, "*touch hole/barrel plug*
you do have a ram rod?
(*curious question* do they give ya  a wood or steel ramer?)....makes a difference as to which model bess only..........don't fret....My curious george moment
even within the long land(1st model) there were variations"

Came with a steel and yes, that's what I did was measure with the ramrod. I got a piece of alluminum rod to get a more precise measurement (round end of the ramrod hard to line up) and with the flash hole drilled in the center bottom of the pan, it will be dead center at the end on the breech plug. In other words, 1/2 of the bit will hit the plug. That'll probably work, just don't like the idea of the drill bit hitting the plug but moving it forward and up, it won't be in the bottom of the pan.

Busy now cleaning and polishing all the brass parts, going to touch up the stock and tung oil the heck out of it over the next several days. Don't know what oil/finish they have on it but it's soft and gummy. I enjoy this kind of work so no biggy....O.L.

Bezon OL,

really? half the drill bit into the breech plug.....egads man!......wow youve got an issue!
yer just drilling a hole? (correct) not installing a vent liner?
<---*thinking to self*
loosing half of my igntion....is not my idea of a fun day of shooting

what size hole did they ask fer you to drill?

this is going to sound werid so hear me out.....
I would still place the start of the hole in the center/botton of the pan.....
BUT angle the hole towards the open bottom of the inside of the barrel....
(so its on top of the breech plug)

(so to speak: I wouldn't drill 90deg straight in from the botton of the pan)
(yet would drill perhaps 20 deg?........towards the charge)
and I'm thinking about the barrel now......
I still would line up correctly in the pan

that should ....*thinking*....
remove some, if not all matieral (obstruction/plug)......and give ya a complete hole
give a direct line for the heat flash to the charge


hey thinking out loud..........what do you think?
YO JMD.....ideas?

-k


I do know fer sure that moving the hole up from the bottom of the pan is not a grand idea

Oladcock -- maybe I'm just a couple of days ahead of you.  I "did" my stock today -- first hit it with some paint remover to attempt to get some of the finish off of it.  Afterwards I used coarse steel wool to remove the the paint remover & old finish.  Let it dry for a couple of hours.  Then dyed it with a good alcohol based dye to a medium walnut color.  It took this dye OK.  Let it dry in the sun for about 6 hours.  Then I hit it with a mixture of 1/2 tung oil & 1/2 mineral spirits.  Wiped the excess off after about 10 minutes.  I'm letting this 1st coat dry overnight.  Looks pretty good, and I suspect after another coat of pure tung oil it will look really good.  I'm very pleased with the results.

Re your prior comments about the flash hole.  Based on what you said, I think I'll slightly angle the drill forward (towards muzzle) so I avoid the breech plug interference problem.  The hole will still penetrate near the bottom of the barrel, though.

Dick

Bezon oldfudd,

re:angling the hole

you too?......I think thats the solution....its good to hear from someone else
sounds as if its darn close

glad to hear thier cleaning up well!    how'd yer metal polishing turn out? or are you still working just stock......I think it was you the posted you worked your lock already

Good to know Dick, I was planning on the same, glad it's working out. ASM, there isn't any instructions from Liberty other than the email in the 1st post. That link in the first post calls for 1/16". Yes, I think angled is the way to go, got a feeling as soon as the bit breaks out it's going to "walk" that way anyhow! :)....O.L.

ASM -- I buffed up the brass last night on a 6" buffing wheel with brown Tripoli compound, and it turned out very pretty.  The only "mod" I've made so far was to replace the galvanized butt plate screws with oval head brass screws.  The lock is done for now and works OK.  I've got to finish the stock and drill the flash hole.  After that, all I've got to do (I think) is go get a flint for the hammer, and get some round balls about .734 or so.  Then it's off to a buddies house (out in the woods) and proof the barrel. 

Does anyone here know the dimensions (and shape) of the paper to roll authentic looking paper cartridges?  I've done it for rolling Sharps nitrated paper cartridges, but never for  smooth bores.  My concept is to roll the tube, fold and seal the powder end, fill the powder, tie it off, insert the ball, and tie it off.  I'll probably wax/lube the ball end of the cartridge too.  Comments, please.

Dick

bezon oldfudd,

pg 39 of sketch book 76 has cartridge making..........."how to"

or theres a youtube vid...making out of the book:Derelict Epistle Flintlock Part 2 Making Paper Cartridges

he goes way overboard, yet its out of the book
theres also a host of others

or the dimensions of thee trapezoid are,
parallel 6" & 2"tall by 5 1/2 wide...............straight out of the book (its right in front of me)

What will you "protect" the brass with?  In my experience (daily polishing brass for my dress blues from 1976 to 1979) you can shine it up like a mirror but it will begin to tarnish that day even if you don't get it wet/rained on.

I have not polished brass (other than for reloading) since then but if I had some on a rifle and wanted it to stay nice looking I'd be finding some way to try to "preserve" the appearnce for as long as possible before having to take it out of the stock to re-polish it.

Neither of these ideas may be acceptable or work for you but if I was trying to "keep it shiny" I'd try some Never Dull first.  Its in the auto care section of some stores, comes in a small silver metal can and looks like some type of furniture padding rolled up and stuffed in the can.  It will polish chrome and aluminum and seems to preserve the shine/finish on wheels for some time.  Something like a good coat of carwax or furniture wax (the paste wax, not the spray on stuff) might also leave a protective finish on the brass for a period of time.

If you have badly tarnished brass (again, as in reloading) you can buy some stuff at WalMart called "lemi shine".  It is for use in dishwashers but you can put a table spoon of it in some warm water (warm water seems to work faster for me) in the right sized bowl and submerge the brass in it.  It will shine the brass up pretty quickly.  If badly tarnished (as in dark green to black) it will come out pink looking but that will clean up/off with a little polishing.  I've also mixed up lemi shine and water and used it on GI web gear (straps, ammo pouches, etc) to remove the verdigris build up/stains from the brass and the cloth around it.  It did not fade or discolor the green web material on my stuff.  I have not tried it on old leather slings because of the effect of soaking the leather in water.

Good luck with it.  Let us see some pictures (before and after would be great) when you get done.

OD, I bet you polished your GI brass with "Brasso", that's what we used. I doubt there is anything that will protect very long if it's being handled with dirty/salty hands....O.L.

Just thought I would report in since I bought one of the muskets through Kaylee. 

I have dabbled with modern BP rifles but am pretty much clueless when it come to the old stuff.  Haven't had time to tear  down the musket yet or do any cleaning, drilling, polishing etc but I will over the next week or so.   

I don't intend to get into reenacting but I would like to pick up the historical accouterments needed to make this thing fire.  Can someone give me an idea (a list would be helpful) of what I would need to get?  Also where would one buy the items needed? I started looking around at reenacting websites but I assume there are preferred or inside suppliers of such things.

I already appreciate the info showing up on the thread so let's keep it going. 

Bezon mac66,        (old shawnee for hello)

*rubbin hands together*....whatca git?......bess?

I'll work typing a list of bessie stuff........where to get......how much........then your choice
OK?.......you decide......stuff for the musket only.........no re-enacting stuff.....ya game?

I need to go git the youngs from skool.....*L*...*backwoods humor*...scum that I am...

but...start with:
TOW=track of the wolf
GGG=g gedney goodwin

now don't go trader crazy......some stuff is pricey.....I'll make ya a list

be right back

wohdoh nah
-k

middlesex village
military heritage
loyalist arms
smiling fox forge
Dixie gun works
jas townshed and sons

now theres a Host of others!

you don't need a flash guard...(your not in the ranks!)....just beware of other folks @ your side
also unless you know how to knap flint "CORRECTLY"...don't bother with a knapping hammer
just ask fer help from a local flinter to align..........expect 25-30 shots per flint(on the low end)
I've had marthon flints running 125-145 shots...(agate)

Flints (LARGE) from time to time free @TOW.....large variety @TOW.....but @GGG also
Wooden flint $1.00 @GGG
Leads (to hold the flint - don't use leather for bessie)$1.25GGG
A worm - threaded to fit YOUR ramrod
A triangle bladed screwdriver (has a punch on one end for pins)$9.75GGG
A hammerstall (reccommended/modern safety device of last resort)(leather cover for frizzen)
Ball & patches TOW
powder..the sky is the limit...yet most places want a 25lbs minimum order...I go in a pool, several times a year with friends....
-you will want a whisk & pick combo....
-you might get tampion......yet not necessary
-And a good cleaning jag
I'm assuming you got a sling/bayonet & carrage with your musket


now then this is a mouth full!...and it could go on....
I need help from the cheap seats *L*.........wheres the peanut gallery
this is what I have time fer.......dinner time or the children..(not kids/kids=goats in colonial america)

bbl
-k

Quote from: asminuteman on November 18, 2011, 07:02:51 PM
Bezon mac66,        (old shawnee for hello)

*rubbin hands together*....whatca git?......bess?

I'll work typing a list of bessie stuff........where to get......how much........then your choice
OK?.......you decide......stuff for the musket only.........no re-enacting stuff.....ya game?

I need to go git the youngs from skool.....*L*...*backwoods humor*...scum that I am...

but...start with:
TOW=track of the wolf
GGG=g gedney goodwin

now don't go trader crazy......some stuff is pricey.....I'll make ya a list

be right back

wohdoh nah
-k

middlesex village
military heritage
loyalist arms
smiling fox forge
Dixie gun works
jas townshed and sons

now theres a Host of others!

you don't need a flash guard...(your not in the ranks!)....just beware of other folks @ your side
also unless you know how to knap flint "CORRECTLY"...don't bother with a knapping hammer
just ask fer help from a local flinter to align..........expect 25-30 shots per flint(on the low end)
I've had marthon flints running 125-145 shots...(agate)

Flints (LARGE) from time to time free @TOW.....large variety @TOW.....but @GGG also
Wooden flint $1.00 @GGG
Leads (to hold the flint - don't use leather for bessie)$1.25GGG
A worm - threaded to fit YOUR ramrod
A triangle bladed screwdriver (has a punch on one end for pins)$9.75GGG
A hammerstall (reccommended/modern safety device of last resort)(leather cover for frizzen)
Ball & patches TOW
powder..the sky is the limit...yet most places want a 25lbs minimum order...I go in a pool, several times a year with friends....
-you will want a whisk & pick combo....
-you might get tampion......yet not necessary
-And a good cleaning jag
I'm assuming you got a sling/bayonet & carrage with your musket


now then this is a mouth full!...and it could go on....
I need help from the cheap seats *L*.........wheres the peanut gallery
this is what I have time fer.......dinner time or the children..(not kids/kids=goats in colonial america)

bbl
-k

Thanks for the reply. Yes I got a Brown Bess. Will be looking through all the stuff you posted. Thanks.

I'm touching up the stock with Formby's Tung oil finish and it's working out very well. I haven't been able to find a #1 centerdrill in town for the flash hole as shown in the video and questioning why that's really needed? It looks like it's slightly larger than 1/16" and countersinks a little, I can do that without a centerdrill.

One place I found .735" ball wanted $65/100 while other calibers were more like $12-$16/100, a little steep for no more than I'm going to shoot this thing! Track of the Wolf gets $12.20/25 but they aren't listed on their web site. So...It's going well as far as I'm concerned. O0.....O.L.

Quote from: oladcock on November 19, 2011, 11:49:15 AM
One place I found .735" ball wanted $65/100(Dixie) while other calibers were more like $12-$16/100, a little steep for no more than I'm going to shoot this thing! Track of the Wolf gets $12.20/25 but they aren't listed on their web site(yes they are/you just missed them) So...It's going well as far as I'm concerned. O0.....O.L.

you can also mold yer own.........a lee die is 19.95.....forget the "bag mold" (49-75 $$$)
lead is free at the range....*L*
I have both a bag molds for the field, and a lee molds for @ home.....
.22 cal "splats" are everywhere!....and melt down just fine.....
you will have many folks complain about "hardness" of the lead resources out there in the world.
for a loose ball "bouncing" down a smooth barrel, you shouldn't have any issues.......with what ever type of lead you melt, and use.  (huge topic best left for another discussion)

as to cal: I know of folks using 69. cal in the .75.....naked and patched (just seat well)
so........... .690 / .715 / .735      or .750 naked........should all work
it is a (quiet for the puritans) a .76 cal bore...
TOW says their all in stock

its a Fowler for all intents and purposes (12 g) use some cornmeal/dry grass...and heavy shot......heheheh you'd never miss! *L*

-k

ps.
the only thing you need worry yourself over, is over presurring the barrel.
the India repros are "re-enactment type" firelocks.....
no heavy loads, no tight fitting ball/patch combos, and they'll function fine
theres a real reason for the difference in pricing between muzzlestuffers, and that comes down to mostly barrel. (yes other factors apply/I hate disclaimers/yet you know animals called humans)

ASM, I don't know where you are finding those numbers? TOW on their web site doesn't show .735 balls at all but through email said they carried them. Maybe my browser isn't displaying their site correctly?  Lee molds for $19.95? More like $80: http://muzzleloadingandmore.com/products/accessories/molds_round_balls/index.htm#Round Balls

A mold was my first thought, just not cost effective no more than I'll shoot it. Yep, if you can get it down the barrel they'll shoot.....O.L.

OK, I found them, TOW doesn't consider a musket a "muzzleloader"! :)...O.L.

well I purchaced a new Lee .600 round ball mold (single) just 3 weeks ago for $19.95 from midway!
spend a few minutes on google, in just ten minutes I located in range from $16.49 to 120.!
single and doubles........ .690/.715/.735/even .750
mold only and/or  w/handles.....handles sperate were only $12-$15. bucks

it may take a few moments, but WELL worth your time....
Lotsa old stock out there....I'l check a few "old" haunts......living history places....
The list I posted is only the tip of the iceberg! I know of 500 location for firelock stuff.
I was trying to make it easier

I've been shooting BP rifles & muskets for several decades, and have done a couple of 'kit' Hawken rifles, revolvers, pistols, and a 3/4 scale Parrott Gun (3 pound); I've tried flinters, but didn't have the knack, so I stayed with percussion. 

There are several 'go to' books/catalogs that will help you out.  First, The Dixie Gunworks Catalog, you want ~1990 or earlier, in the back is a black powder fiend's guide to cleaning, DIY chemistry for solvents, cleaners, preservatives, stains, &c.

Next up is the 1860 Army Ordinance Manual, it's long out of print, but you can find some good receipts from it on on the web- links to follow.  One thing to be aware of, the manual's receipts usually use toxic substances, but there are modern substitutes.

A few thoughts for new Brown Bess or other Black Powder Firearm owner.
    Make sure the Black powder is actually black powder!  Sounds dumb, but if you are getting the powder in a container that you don't know the history of... it could contain most any powders.  Yes, Smokeless Powders are black in color, so beware.
    Never remove a breech plug in any BP Firearm!  They usually screwed in and torqued tightly, and some contain the flame or firing channels- you'll never get em aligned right again generally.
    When you get a new (to you) or unknown BP musket or rifle:
          Drop the ram rod down the barrel, place you thumb nail firmly where the bbl ends on the ram rod, and without moving your thumbnail, withdraw the rod, place everything parallel to the barrel and note where the rod's end is.  There may be anything from a live load, especially in 'heirlooms' or garbage from the manufacturing process.
          BTW, flinters and percussion arms have been known to fire even when not primed.capped or a flint in the lock. 'Nuff said.
    Gently disassemble the musket on receipt.  Never force a part, especially the lock free as the milling around it is a precision process.
    Initial cleaning can be done on all part with Kerosene.  Yeah, smells funky to some, but cuts right through grease, &c. without harming finishes.  The Kero residue acts as a lubricant until it 'cooks off'- a day or three in the shed or workshop if the other half insists.
      Dealing with metal work, &c. has been discussed already.  Just remember it's easier to re-do too little metal removal, than to replace it.  The same with wood.  When reassembling the piece, do not over tighten the lock to stock screws, you can bind up the lock to the wood, or snap the lock plate- it's usually tempered.

Proofing has been dealt with already, so for firing:
    Pyrodex is flammable, same DOT Class as smokeless powders, Black Powder is an explosive- hence the BATFE Regs for quantity stored.  Pyrodex and equal substitutes depend on compression to go BOOM!  Black powder will go BOOM! when fired loose as a blank in barrel- it doesn't need a wad or anything to do this.
   To make a paper cartridge, for live fire or blanks, soak some white gift wrap tissue paper in a super-saturated solution of Tree Stump Remover (potassium nitrate), let dry, the cut out in the shape of the State of Nevada.  Width and length will be determined by caliber, a blank or live round and charge to be used.
   Last, NEVER LOAD A BLACK POWDER FIREARM FROM A FLASK, HORN OR CONTAINER!  A spark or ember remaining from clearing or the previous shot will ruin your day!

Keep yer powder dry!

Tom

P.S. Solder Doss from radiator repair shops makes great cannon balls and non hunting or competition round shot.

Hi guys -- got a question.  Has anybody actually drilled the flash hole in your "Appleseed" Brown Bess ???  I've carefully measured inside the bore to locate the end of the breech plug, and have pretty much determined that I'll have to drill the flash hole at about a 15 to 20 degree angle (inclined towards the muzzle) in order to barely clear the end of the breech plug. 

Has anyone else come to this conclusion, or is mine unique?  I'm looking for some some confirmation and/or support before I drill.  Thanks.

Dick

Dick, if you look at some of my first posts, mine is the same way. I was going to drill it today but got distracted. Tomorrow afternoon maybe, I'll let you know how it comes out. I'm going straight in, being on the edge of the plug, I suspect it'll "walk" on it's own....O.L.

OL -- I again looked at the link Kaylee gave us where they stated that the Indian breech plugs had a notch cut into them -- well . . . . I cleaned all the dust out of my barrel, put a strong light down it while I looked -- I'm pretty sure there is NO notch in my breech plug.

Suggest you go lightly, 'cause if the drill breaks while "walking" you've got a very difficult problem, especially if the breech plug is not removable. 

I've also very closely looked under magnification at the breech end of the barrel, and I cannot see any signs of threads or a joint where it might be joined to the barrel -- really puzzles me.  I've got a couple of good quality Civil War repros, and you can see where the breech plug enters the barrel on both of them.

Dick 

Quote from: oladcock on November 19, 2011, 11:49:15 AM
I'm touching up the stock with Formby's Tung oil finish and it's working out very well. I haven't been able to find a #1 centerdrill in town for the flash hole as shown in the video and questioning why that's really needed? It looks like it's slightly larger than 1/16" and countersinks a little, I can do that without a centerdrill.

One place I found .735" ball wanted $65/100 while other calibers were more like $12-$16/100, a little steep for no more than I'm going to shoot this thing! Track of the Wolf gets $12.20/25 but they aren't listed on their web site. So...It's going well as far as I'm concerned. O0.....O.L.

O.L.  most tire shops will GIVE you a 5 gal bucket or two (bring a bucket or two to swap with them for theirs) of used tire weights.  Once they've been installed they can't use them again, and recycling is a pain for them sometimes.  Just beware.... 5 gal of wheel weights is about 140lb (ask Sam). 

Thanks Jeff, lead isn't a problem, time and effort is! :) Oh yes Dick, I know! :) I can't see any seams either. As easy as it marked with a punch, I don't think we're looking at steel like we see on other firearms from a hardness standpoint. It sure polished up nice! :).....O.L.

Quote from: desertrat144 on November 19, 2011, 05:38:26 PM
   Last, NEVER LOAD A BLACK POWDER FIREARM FROM A FLASK, HORN OR CONTAINER!  A spark or ember remaining from clearing or the previous shot will ruin your day!

Hence the old practice of exhaling down into the barrel prior to loading for the next shot.  The combination of moisture and CO2 was supposed to extinguish any remaining embers.

Be careful of static electricity build up with handling/using black powder.  I've read of cases where folks wearing those nylon snowmobile suits have had their rifles go off from the static build up common in cold/dry temps when your wearing clothes that aren't conductive (man made materials).

Just cannot seem to get my comments outside that darn quote box for some reason.  So I changed the text to blue.

I finally decided I had enough coats of tong oil, that process can go on forever if one wanted! :) Got all the brass hardware back on and used brass pins, it looks great!

Attacked the flash hole today. Started out drilling straight in, it never broke out of the plug after 1/2" depth. Backed out, run a 3/32" bit in 1/8" straight, then angled the barrel about 25 degrees with a 1/16" bit. It broke out after about 3/8" of travel. Looking inside I can see it but no way to know how rough the edges are nor anyway to smooth it up that I can think of. I'll get after the lock in the next day or two and she should be ready to go play with, as soon as my rocks and balls get here....O.L.

OL -- wow, glad you didn't break the drill bit when breaking out through the breech plug. 

I wouldn't be too concerned about the possible rough edges.  When you prime the frizzen pan, use fairly small grain powder (I've been told 4F), and tap it into the flash hole in addition to the frizzen pan.  When it touches off, I'd be willing to bet that there will be a good healthy flame that easily ignites your main powder charge.

Like you, I'm pretty much done with the stock (3 coats of Tung oil) -- I'm just letting the last coat dry completely before reinstalling the polished brass.  Then, I'll attack the lock using your angled approach.  After that it's getting some balls, and out to a buddies place to "proof" the barrel.  (I think that will require some balls too.   ::) )

Dick

LOL, yep, got on of those rifle rest bench thingies and a long string to the trigger! :)

Doing the lock in 2 halves, finished with the frizzen side, now working on the hammer side. Used a 3" C-clamp to compress the springs. Worked good but very much pucker factor involved if something slips. "Rough" is an understatement for some of the parts. Be careful with the screws, the threads look like they were cut with a hack saw....O.L.

bezon gents,

Heat plume, NOT flame from the pan touches off main charge.

pan charge 3f to 8f, its trail and error to find which works best in your bessies.
pit falls are:
*8f the more like baby powder wicks moisture out of the air, plus side is very min spark is needed to touch off.
*3f needs to have an average spark (not fantastic/just solid), plus side is you might be using it for your main charge already!


be careful with using a clamp for the main spring, do not scratch the spring or over clampen.
if you don't have a main spring vice, better to use a pair of vicegrips.
just do-not smash the spring(over tighten) you only need to relieve the pressure to disassemble
main spring can be weakened and/or caused to fail at the clamping point
and once the spring is out, and you disassemble the lock......carefully release the spring from what ever is employed to decompress..........main springs are "fickle*........I could use a cliche, but I don't wish to hear from the women folk!

sounds as if your doing well.........

-k

Yep, the correct tools is wonderful, getting the job done with what you have, the mark of a Rifleman, improvise, adapt, and over come.

It's all together, man those bores are nasty! :)....O.L.

And here I sit staring at my musket contemplating the universe. Trying to decide when to tackle the inevitable disassembly w/fluff and buff.  I think mine will be a wall hanger until I can acquire the proper accouterments.

NO NO mac!

paitence.....not procrastination.....
Proper hell, accouterments be damed.....

"farbie " is the word dude.......charge forward.......
ALL beginners do the "farbie" stage... I know of folks who think "farbie" is kinda cool....(even collect)

safety first, and enjoy.....once you figure it out, firelocks are great, its that first step !
"farbie" or not your welcome at my campfire,.......enjoy that musket, don't sit around and watch it rust.

-k

OL -- PHEW !!    Finally screwed up the courage to drill my flash hole.  Ran a 1/16" bit in at a 20 degree angle and broke out just about the middle of the breech plug.  Everything looks good.  Am wondering if the hole should be larger?  Guess I'll try it at 1/16" to see if it works OK, else I'll maybe open it up to 3/32".

AS -- not to be obtuse, but what does "farbie" stand for?

Hey guys, want to tell all of you how much I appreciate the comments and advice on building my Bess.  It's looking petty good, and I can't wait to proof the barrel so I can shoot the thing.  If the repro is fairly accurate, I now see why the Brits didn't use the "Aim" command -- it's almost impossible to get my eye down to barrel level due to the angle of the butt stock.

Dick

Hehehehehehe................"farbie"

<----I should let Kaylee discribe.......NO SHES NOT "farbie"......I've just heard her exclaim she likes "farbie stuff" on another one of our haunts.

Farbie is a word used to discribe one who is new to muzzleloading/reenacting/living history OR
the "equipment" that someone new has, .........Not all first timers get the correct "gizmos" when starting out,...it could be not of the correct time period (PC=period correct)(sometimes doesn't matter).
and/or (HC=historically correct) (it didn't exsit at all!)

in the discussion we're all having......doesn't mean a HOOT IN HELL.....
The rifle (smoothbore) is all that matters in this teaching format, add to that that you can operate it (safely).......the rest is "Fluff"!.......and I'm someone that'l give the FULL measure of HC/PC at a demo....yet I can, which in no way should be a downer to others wanting to learn......

I learned because I was PULLED into campfires &/treckks/parades/honor gaurds/reenactments...."all decked out farbie"...as it was.....and got to play with the correct tools, the correct way to do ......I was "included!".......and instructed........sounds like appleseed doesn't it......no one judged me for being incorrect...they choose to teach me.......and thats the path I choose...to teach, not judge

I'll go back to a saying that I posted many moons ago......it explains the difference between teacher and instructors.........."School don't Scould".......it never a gottca moment.....
I prefer to be a teacher..........

anyway I hope you got the jist.....a writer I am not.........
-k

The only thing holding me back is rocks, balls, and powder.

"it's almost impossible to get my eye down to barrel level due to the angle of the butt stock."

Mine seems to fit pretty well. Oh course I won't know till I get some shots through it but the barrel tang screw is fuzz as I focus on the front sight/bayonet lug. Looks to me one could use it as a rear sight, keeping the front centered, and how much of the front sight you "see" is elevation. I'd bet one could get fairly accurate with it. It's a shoulder cannon for sure! :)....O.L.

ASM, Definately have appreciated your input and if I've seemed dismissive at times of some of the historical detail, I apologize. Don't have much time in a seed to spend on the Bess but if they can take away an appreciation of the skill/knowledge it took to have an advantage over the Regulars, and they know what a "Frizzen" is, mission accomplished.....O.L.

well, ...*scratchen chin*

a rear sight on the firelock is a waste of time......(brown bess)
ball is bouncing down the barrel......hence the 60-70 yrds limited shot range.

yet you tighten up the ball/patch combo, run up the charge! and I have read tales of 150 yards!
in the hands of someone with experience.....now thats the MAX....and its still a man size grouping

Its (a brown bess) more of a "matter of fact " weapon.......point in the general direction and ?
with practice you can get proficent.       
Now at the Corona 210 this year I was hitting the 100yd redcoat with ease@25m (brwon bess)
*scared some folks*...hehehehe
then switched to my .62 rifle......were do you want it to hit?.....right shoulder...ok
head ok........one of my IITs.... thought I was superhuman....
they were noting that I had no sling and 3 feet of steel hanging out in front of me
what cool about the large CALs is that you can see the holes without going down range.....*L*

Quote from: oladcock on November 24, 2011, 11:53:12 AM
ASM, Definately have appreciated your input and if I've seemed dismissive at times of some of the historical detail, I apologize. Don't have much time in a seed to spend on the Bess but if they can take away an appreciation of the skill/knowledge it took to have an advantage over the Regulars, and they know what a "Frizzen" is, mission accomplished.....O.L.

put your mind at ease.....
questions were asked.....
answers were givin.........
YOU are the best judge as to the path you travel NOT someone else......*hummmm*....sounds familar
you asked a question, got several opinions.....for the most part saying the same thing, different wording.....*YippIe*.......
you must be "saluted" just for courage to ask......(if you know what i mean).....
remember ...I don't judge.....(yet if I stand farther away while you shoot....do the math)...*L*

there are several others  here quite knowledgeable, who I thought would have chimed in more......
so don't just listen to me.....weight your choices....

by the way SIR!......Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family and friends today!

"by the way SIR!......Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family and friends today!"

Same to you are yours!  :bow:  Eyeballing this bird, wonder what a load of single oughts out of this muzzle stuffer would do? :).....O.L.

I finally got to see ours!

I got the long land, my boyfriend got a short (a true Lakonian.  ;) ) - these were nicer than I expected!

In a way, this is also a "before and after" - they both started the same color, but mine's been stripped (in hindsight, I don't know as that was necessary), stained (lots) with walnut woodstain to try and get it looking a little more European, and then finished with flax oil.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aeU6ECiBYbk/TtKT-WY6PkI/AAAAAAAABrw/nSs03IUqxQA/s1200/muskets_01.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-IlaTrtUfAIc/TtKT_j9ojqI/AAAAAAAABsM/UcS-fcuyA3E/s1200/muskets_04.jpg)

I was a little surprised to see the curvature of the lockplates differed between the models. While putting this project together, I read that historically that was the case, but I wasn't expecting the relatively cheap copies to do so. I also really like the carving on the older Long Land model - there's a mid-18th century elegance to the lines that's just beautiful. The later period model is a lot more workmanlike.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zQvod10olJI/TtKT-4AAHxI/AAAAAAAABsA/eSSTa-FZLfU/s1200/muskets_02.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8Vr5znHXOvE/TtKT_vtrRoI/AAAAAAAABsg/A0rmfPYqQbQ/s1200/muskets_05.jpg)
I lost a couple of the pins though (rolled off back behind his workbench I think). They look like just plain cut off nails or wire though, so finding some replacements shouldn't be hard.

Mine did have a little bit of corrosion along the barrel/stock line but it seemed to clean up okay. Just a lot more polishing ahead I guess.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VXXIonNx72k/TtKT-Z2Vu3I/AAAAAAAABrs/AN3qKvCEcTQ/s1200/barrel_corrosion.jpg)

Kaylee, Yep, nails! :) I used 1/8" brass for all my pins. Those pins in the barrel carry no load, they are strictly to keep the stock from warping. The front sling screw is steel and between that and the tang screw, carries all the recoil loads. The brass pins look nice! Nice looking but glad I got the long land. Got powder on order, got balls....Rocks should be here tomorrow. So I hope to get it proofed this week and use it in it's first demo in Lubbock next weekend....O.L.

oladcock, got a link to where you are getting your ball & powder?

I've had my Bess replica sense end of May and its great during story time, but no ball or powder for it yet.

Well, wish me luck, I'm going out to proof this hand cannon this afternoon.  I'm concerned the frizzen spring is too strong. It throws a good spark but doesn't "trip" the frizzen over-center every time. It maybe my flint isn't extended far enough out from the hammer.

I'll set it in a weighted bench rest, tie it down, loaded with 150gr FFG and a paper patched .735" round ball. I'll tie a string to the trigger, get back, and see what happens. If it and I survive, going by the first email, I'll try a couple loads of 80grs FFG and ball. Should be fun!

Below is a link I found most informative.....O.L.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm

It shoots! It Shoots!  O0 Survived the proof test with a cloud of smoke, seemed to be no worse for wear. Proceeded to shoot 4 more shots from the shoulder, very pleasant recoil. The first shot after the proof shot, took 2 strikes to get er to light off. The next 2 however fired 100%. Now I have no clue if I'm doing things "right" but here's what I did. I made up some paper cartridges following the pattern in an earlier link. He was making blanks so I used a 3/4" dowel to roll the tubes, crimped the end, dropped in a .735" ball, then I dunked about 3/4" of the tube in hot parifin, let that cool. Next I wadded up a sheet of TP, pressed that on top of the ball to keep powder from falling in around the ball, topped that with 80grs of FFG, folded the loose end of the paper tube into a point, folded it over and tucked it into the wound cartridge seam.
When loading I just tore off the fold over part, poured the powder into the barrel, tore off the excess paper and shoved everything down the barrel. I used the same FFG to prime.

After the 4th shot it was getting tight loading. From reading, .69" balls might be better when just dinking around for demo purposes to make loading easiser.

So...I'm very pleased so far, and yes, I flinched on the mis-fires, more ball and dummy for me! That :bomb: in front of your face is different to say the least...:)...O.L.

 :bomb: in front of your face - there's a reason they call them "Flinchlocks!" ;D

ALRIGHT!!!

A couple of things to try, when making cartridges, tie off the top and behind the ball with a thread, it will stabilize the TP wadding.  Also, very carefully grind your priming powder to a 4f consistency, the ol eye ball method will work, and it gives you a more volatile surface to catch a spark from.

Tom 

I just got back from the Mason's National Heritage Museum in Lexington, MA.

They had several colonial fowlers with provenance back to the Concord fight!
The curator I spoke with said the Bess's they had on display were of the right era and in some cases units, but just given how military property was/is handled, it's impossible to say for instance "yes, this Long Land marked 4th of Foot was actually carried on Lexington Green."

Still - very cool!  8)

For what it's worth - the features on that LL were (mostly illegible in a case/dim light) unit markings on the thumbpiece and barrel, the "bubbly" sideplate and knobly forearm like the LL we got, but the flat wood under the trigger guard, brass endcap, and "trumpet" front thimble like the Short Lands we got. Size is hard to guess - pressed to it, I'd say closer to the short. Lockplate was marked "Dublin Castle."

There was also an older Bess with a wooden rammer, and a Short Land (marked Tower).

Of the Colonial arms - one had very crude sights (a groove filed in the rear of the breechplug), most just a front lug like a musket, but a little more refined. Furniture was *mostly* brass, but one was very nice (silver I think?) and one iron I believe. Lots of droopy buttstocks like on modern CZ 22s, and mostly smaller bores than the military muskets. Almost all were fitted with bayonets though, which looked a little odd on civilian arms. But they did it. :)

Unfortunately, no pictures were allowed.  :'(


By the way... they had THE TRUNK.  :D

Kaylee, thanks for the pictures and the report from the museum.  After seeing your musket, I am kind of wishing I'd gotten the long land version. Oh well. mine is still cool. Haven't attempted to mess with it yet. Taking it to an AS shoot this weekend to show it to a couple reenactor types who always bring their muskets and give some history at this club. Hopefully, I will hook up some contacts for the stuff I need to get it up an running.

PS. Sure wish I had a bayonet  ::)

QuotePS. Sure wish I had a bayonet

Me to!
... I'll pester him again. He said they'd be shipping ages ago.   :-[
[edit -oh wait. *heh* They're in Paris. We should get them tomorrow.  O0]
[edit again - they updated their arrival estimate. Last marked in Memphis TN, Dec 2. Here Monday it looks like. ]
[edit again - they're at the local sort facility. Almost certainly Monday]

(I think I personally prefer the Long Land, seeing them both up close now - but I have to admit, of those we got the Short is closer to the one they had on display for the 4th of Foot.)

UPS says my Bess will arrive tomorrow. Huzzah!!! (And yes, that makes me the biggest procrastinator of the group.)

She's here! HUZZAH!!!

Nothing like coming home and finding a long brown box on the front porch. I felt like Ralphie in A Christmas Story. My wife was asking what it was and I was just couldn't stop smiling and peeling off bubble wrap and smiling and peeling and WOW!!! She sure is tall!

I was all ginger and easy, really handling it carefully and then I realized, this thing was made out of hard metal and wood. A real firearm!

I'm out on the AST for a few weeks but I'll get back into this thread when I can. In the mean time, where do you folks recommend for ordering supplies like flints, ball-making gear, BP, etc.?

Huzzah, huhzzah, huzzzzzzzzaaaa!

slim -

I ordered the following from Najecki (http://www.najecki.com/repro/Musket.html) just to get ours looking right:
Mainspring vice - to be able to take the lock apart and clean up the lockplate
British musket tool - to be able to more easily fit the flint in the cock (or at least leave authentic buggered up marks on the screw. :p )
A dozen flints
A couple lead pads (dunno how many we need - do they go bad?)
A couple wooden "flints" for dryfiring.

No idea on powder and ball - I've heard nothing but good about Track of the Wolf.

<---funny how folks experiences differ
*not gottca* towards anyone..........observation


personally I wouldn't work with Dixie ever again......
Never had an issue with Track of the Wolf.....
Najeccki & G Gedney Goodwin are very high priced, yet good quality stuff.....

added for clarity
thread as a whole, opinions on equipment, locations, etc.
not a gottca moment, just an observation
Its good to have such diversity in the thread
happy to know such fine folks

FYI--

http://www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm

SoM

Had a chance to show my Bess to a reenacter this weekend.  He said it looked pretty good and certainly within the variances of what was made over the years.

Of course that started the conversation of what I would need to get it up and running (besides drilling the hole).   I am not interested in going whole hog into reenacting but I would like to get some of the shooting accoutrements to show students.

He suggested the following..(list based on memory)
1. Flints, lead flint pads
2. Haversack (cloth)
3. Possibles bag  (leather)
4. Patch knife/sheath
5. Powder horn and priming horn
6. Musket tool w/pick
7. Sling  (he suggested a leather strap over the canvas or linen type, since we are more likely to represent militia. Also holds up better)
8. Patches
9. Musket balls and pouch

Optional  (perhaps for Issac Davis' men)
10. Cartridge box and paper cartridges
11. Bayonet frog
12. Patch cloth (apparently militia carried strips of cloth which they cut patches from as needed with their patch knife)

He also carried a tomahawk   If you go to the Lapeer Mi AAR there are pictures of him doing demo.  He made a lot of his his own stuff and suggested the same.

I know I am forgetting some things and you really don't need a patch knife if using precut patches or paper cartridges.

Following up on Mac66's comments.  I've got an unsolicited comment here -- I got a very reasonably priced repro leather sling for my Brown Bess from Smiling Fox Forge via the internet.  It came in natural leather which I died dark, and then sealed it with Mink Oil (Kiwi brand).  I think it looks super and goes great with the musket.  The people at Smiling Fox couldn't have been nicer, or quicker to fill my order.  I'll buy from them again in a heartbeat.  FYI

Dick

Quote from: mac66 on December 07, 2011, 11:29:53 AMHe also carried a tomahawk 

As does the reenactor around here. The general concensus seems to be most men who were 7 years war vets saw first hand the value of carrying a 'hawk and continued to do so even during the revolution. If we're to be period-correct, we should probably add one to our kit. Most reenactors have all three edged weapons (bayo, hawk, knife) on their kit.

Totally out of context here, but I have a modern version of the tomahawk as part of my kit. The tomahawk is just as useful today as it was then. And uniquely American to boot!

Quote from: oldfudd on December 07, 2011, 08:43:21 PM
Following up on Mac66's comments.  I've got an unsolicited comment here -- I got a very reasonably priced repro leather sling for my Brown Bess from Smiling Fox Forge via the internet.  It came in natural leather which I died dark, and then sealed it with Mink Oil (Kiwi brand).  I think it looks super and goes great with the musket.  The people at Smiling Fox couldn't have been nicer, or quicker to fill my order.  I'll buy from them again in a heartbeat.  FYI

Dick

Because I was lazy, I got a sling from Dixie, good quality but was too short, probably designed to fit a short land. But a hole punch allowed it to be serviceable barely.....O.L.

 I have a feeling buying this Bess is going to cost me a lot of money in the long run. ::)
I can feel myself being sucked into the vortex.

Quote from: mac66 on December 08, 2011, 02:33:56 PM
I have a feeling buying this Bess is going to cost me a lot of money in the long run. ::)
I can feel myself being sucked into the vortex.

Like we need an excuse! LOL Could have bought a dedicated .22lr upper for one of our AR's for sure! :)

The bayonet came today, WOW! Wasn't what I expected. Intimidating is an understatement. I'd throw down my musket and grab my longbow, effective range about the same with much higher rate of fire! :)...O.L.

Perhaps some monetary relief (kind of like reloading) . . . . a friend of mine was into RW reenacting about 30+ years ago, and at that time bought a kit for a RW cartridge box.  I borrowed his box and did some reverse engineering.  I'm just about done and extremely pleased with the results.  It's all hand sewn and looks like a rough version of a CW Enfield box.  I've got about 5 - 6 hours into the project.

He also loaned me his combination tomahawk and bayonet frog.  I intend to do the same reverse engineering on that and make my own.  I'll also do a belt to hold the frog.

If anybody's interested, when I'm done I'll make pictures available of the final projects, "engineering" drawings, and simple directions by email (I don't know how to post pictures on the forum).  I suspect these things will be petty authentic, remember 'cause they didn't have sewing machines in those days and most things were hand made.

Total cost for me (estimated) will be about $26 for the 12 sq ft piece of tanned (low grade) cowhide and about $5 for an authentic looking belt buckle.  The rest of the stuff, including the dye, I had around my basement.  I'll have at least half of the cowhide remaining for "other" projects that I get sucked into.   #)

Let me know if you're interested.  I'll be looking for an Indian (asian) made tomahawk at the local fun show this weekend -- I've seen them there on earlier visits.

Dick

Quote from: oladcock on December 08, 2011, 03:18:58 PM

Quote from: mac66 on December 08, 2011, 02:33:56 PM
I have a feeling buying this Bess is going to cost me a lot of money in the long run. ::)
I can feel myself being sucked into the vortex.

[Camera zooms into a guy, wearing a black suit, narrow tie, and smoking a cigarette while he speaks] "...it started with a single Brown Bess, a piece of Revolutionary War history, it's initial use was to demonstrate how things were done in 1776, but little did they realize that it had a life of it's own, the journey now begins.  Welcome to the..." Reenactors Zone!

The vortex is real, enjoy the ride!  I did ACW for 30+ years, started with Rev. War.  'Fess up, you are now hooked!

Tom

The colonials apparently had quite a wide variety of weapons and accoutrements - it looks like early on it was still common to use a horn of powder and loose balls instead of rolled cartridges - I've also seen at least one photo of a Revolutionary War improvised "cartridge box" that was just a drilled block shoved into an existing  shoulder pouch.

There's a reference to the town of Concord voting to supply their militia with bayonets, but the nearby Amherst boys apparently didn't even have that.

Which is to say... for the Colonial side of storytime, there's some leeway.  :)


   

Quote
   "To a man they wore small clothes, coming down and fastening just below the knee, and long stockings, with cowhide shoes ornamented with large buckles, while not a pair of boots graced the whole company.

    'The coats and waistcoats were loose and of large dimensions, with colors as various as the barks of oaks, sumach and other trees of our hills and swamps could make them, and their shirts were all made of flax, and like every other part of the dress were home made.

    "On their heads was worn a large round-topped and broadbrimmed hat.

    "Their arms were as various as their costumes. Here an old soldier carried a heavy Queens' arm with which he had done service at the Conquest of Canada twenty years before, while by his side walked a stripling boy, with a Spanish-fusee not half its weight or calibre, which his grandfather may have taken at Havana, while a few had old French pieces, that dated back to the reduction of Louisburg.

    "Instead of the cartridge box, a large powder horn was slung under the arm, and occasionally a bayonet might be seen bristling in the rank.

    "Some of the swords of the officers had been made by our own blacksmiths, perhaps from some farming utensils; they looked serviceable but heavy and uncouth."

    Such was the appearance and equipment of the Continentals, to whom so often and finally, so completely, the well armed, disciplined and uniformed soldiers of "His Majesty" were compelled to surrender.

    Colonial Amherst (http://books.google.com/books?id=RSU1AAAAIAAJ&output=text&source=gbs_navlinks_s):
    the early history, customs and homes; geography and geology, of Amherst...
    by Warren Upham

And yeah... that bayonet on the end of those great long muskets - "intimidating" is the word!
(also..um... HEAVY! Gosh those farmboys must have had some arms on 'em!  )

Quote from: oldfudd on December 08, 2011, 04:21:29 PM
Let me know if you're interested.  I'll be looking for an Indian (asian) made tomahawk at the local fun show this weekend -- I've seen them there on earlier visits.
Dick

Show us!  Show us!

Click on "Attachments and other options" just below the text box and it will let you browse your pics and post them!

Coop

H&B forge does some good ones. I have the lightweight "Lady Hawk" (2lb head). These are wrapped hawks with a hardened steel bit. Made in the US and forged Very rugged mine was $35 at Friendship IN  at the Fall Shoot.

http://www.hbforge.com/products/tomahawks.php


JAS Townsend has a Light Infantry Ax (with hammer poll). Forged (somewhere) for <$25.
http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?cPath=20_59&products_id=60

Cold Steel has the rifleman's hawk. When you strip off the paint and sand the handle this makes a good looking hawk. There are a number of videos on youtube of mods to this hawk.

http://www.knifecenter.com/item/CS90RH/cold-steel-riflemans-hawk-drop-forged
mods: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNDmAo5FzY4&feature=relmfu

Okay, I guess it's not so off topic. I'll post mine then  :)

Well - not tomahawks per se, but Colonial era hatchets.
As an aside, I think the hatchet is a wonderful symbol of America's frontier. It's not just a weapon for killing people - it's a tool for building things.  That's just beautifully symbolic I think.    :)

Anyhow, I've seen references to the French settlers along the old Illinois country using (and dancing with!) pipe tomahawks. They were also produced by the English as trade items. That said, polled hatchets seem more common among white settlers.

Either way, if I was buying off the rack, I think I'd go with the HB ones JM mentioned, or one of these-
http://www.redaviscompany.com/edgedweapons.html


That said, last year I was wanting a nice homemade copy of a colonial era hatchet. As it worked out, I ended up with two.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eEzrvIi9rxM/ThKFzXwTeEI/AAAAAAAAAuA/_5ZI1ChnDpY/s1600/july-hatchet-knife.png)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Nw1mhN_KlMk/TNri1xkrW4I/AAAAAAAAAdY/7aKAGsx-ryw/s1600/hatchet2.jpg)


Edit - per asminuteman's comment below - you can purchase your own replica of Paine's "Common Sense" from:

The Nova Anglia Company
Historical Reproductions
P.O. Box 84
Hinesville, GA 31310-0094
novaanglia@yahoo.com


For philosophy of the Revolutionary era, Locke's Second Treatise on Government and Montesquieu's Spirit of the Laws are so far most expansive and representative I've read [but I am "but an egg!"].

For lots and lots of anecdotes of the early American marksmen, I can't recommend highly enough The Frontier Rifleman by Richard LaCrosse. The early 1770's rifle culture is more "backcountry redneck"  than the comparatively "suburban yuppie" of Concord and Lexington, but there's lots of cool anecdotes for offline storytime. Especially once the backcountry riflemen started pouring into more settled New England as the war heated up. They apparently put on some pretty impressive shows for the locals! :)


Edit again - this is a little more to the point. I suspect there are other instructions out there, but for the musket this book is full of at least how one militia did it, c. 1760

A plan of discipline, composed for the use of the militia of the county of Norfolk
(http://books.google.com/books?id=zUYIAAAAQAAJ)

<---also not on thread...

yet in kaylee's last photo......*note*     the pamphlet "common sense"....
I've actually held "That" copy.........and she didn't share the other cool toys.      *stamping foot*

yer pole axe is nice.......but the camp axe is better.....

as a weapon.....stick to a spike tomahawk.....

All things considered: an axe/hawk is unnecessary for a Brown Bess presentation
-k

Before this thread goes too far into the nuances of whether a 19" tomahawk handle is better than a 22" inch handle (forgive me, 'cause I'm into it as much as anyone else on this thread), I believe that we all owe a big debt of gratitude to Kaylee and her helpers. 

After getting my hands on what we got for our relatively low dollars (musket & bayonet w/ scabbard), I think we got a heckofa deal, far more than what I really expected.  Kaylee, I want to publically thank you and everyone involved for all of your hard work.  I suspect that when these Besses start showing up at show and tell time, a lot of other AS instructors will wish they had jumped at the opportunity.

THANK YOU KAYLEE.

Dick

Quote from: oldfudd on December 10, 2011, 12:12:03 AM
Before this thread goes too far into the nuances of whether a 19" tomahawk handle is better than a 22" inch handle (forgive me, 'cause I'm into it as much as anyone else on this thread), I believe that we all owe a big debt of gratitude to Kaylee and her helpers. 

After getting my hands on what we got for our relatively low dollars (musket & bayonet w/ scabbard), I think we got a heckofa deal, far more than what I really expected.  Kaylee, I want to publically thank you and everyone involved for all of your hard work.  I suspect that when these Besses start showing up at show and tell time, a lot of other AS instructors will wish they had jumped at the opportunity.

THANK YOU KAYLEE.

Dick

I second that!  O0 :bow: ....O.L.

The ranks shall raise a cheer!  ^:)^

Huzzah Huzzah Huzzah....

wohdoh nah mad mad kaylee!

Sahwee Tehpeeloolah Kahnohchkay

Quote from: oldfudd on December 10, 2011, 12:12:03 AM
Before this thread goes too far into the nuances of whether a 19" tomahawk handle is better than a 22" inch handle (forgive me, 'cause I'm into it as much as anyone else on this thread),

Bezon Captain Richard, (Dick)

are you saying there are "thread counters" HERE also!.....*L*
I'm not over in "those" forums at the moment.......I'm trying to get away from that garbage
don't ruin my escape to sanity..........yer forcing me to learn ancient rune........or worst picagraphs!

*tip of thee liberty cap*
-k#3

Absolutely a big thanks to Kaylee. Huzzah!

Quote from: desertrat144 on December 08, 2011, 05:34:11 PM

Quote from: oladcock on December 08, 2011, 03:18:58 PM

Quote from: mac66 on December 08, 2011, 02:33:56 PM
I have a feeling buying this Bess is going to cost me a lot of money in the long run. ::)
I can feel myself being sucked into the vortex.

[Camera zooms into a guy, wearing a black suit, narrow tie, and smoking a cigarette while he speaks] "...it started with a single Brown Bess, a piece of Revolutionary War history, it's initial use was to demonstrate how things were done in 1776, but little did they realize that it had a life of it's own, the journey now begins.  Welcome to the..." Reenactors Zone!

The vortex is real, enjoy the ride!  I did ACW for 30+ years, started with Rev. War.  'Fess up, you are now hooked!

Tom

LOL.  There is something familiar about this.  Kind of like, "all I want to do in Appleseed is help out once in awhile"

Absolutely!  A million thanks, Kaylee!  That's one beautiful musket, and the bayonet arrived just in time for our Winterseed this weekend.  Telling the story well is crucial, but a good visual aid is worth a thousand words (and we don't have time for a thousand words!)      :bow:

Well, I just back in town after spending a month down south in which time bayonet arrived. So I just got a chance  look at it and it is pretty cool. Doesn't fit very well, it is very loose. but it's not a big deal, i doubt if I am going to need it in a fight.  ::). Now that I am home I am looking forward to drilling the flash hole and getting my Bess in firing condition.

That was discussed somewhat. (I can't remember where.) Basically what I got from it was the bayonet is supposed to be somewhat loose so the blow is absorbed into the stock and it flexes a little instead of sending all that energy right back into the barrel.

Quote from: slim on January 07, 2012, 11:35:37 PM
That was discussed somewhat. (I can't remember where.) Basically what I got from it was the bayonet is supposed to be somewhat loose so the blow is absorbed into the stock and it flexes a little instead of sending all that energy right back into the barrel.

Mine is a little more than loose. If you turn the rifle slightly it will fall off.  Not really a big issue.  Actually, now the I look at it closer, it looks like they cut the slot backwards.

Just thought I would bump this up a bit.

Got my bayonet issues solved and contacted a local guy who is the director and founder of the !st Michigan Fife and Drum Corps. The guy lives about a mile from me and has been involved in muskets and such for 37 years. I talked to him at length and he is going to bring me up to speed with Bessie.   Going over to his house Thursday to look at his muskets and stuff. His group uses reproduction Morgan's Riflemen uniforms. And of course I am going to fill him in on Appleseed. Already set the hook, just need to reel him in. Of course he is trying reel me in as well.

Take a look

http://1stmichigan.com/

Now that's cool!

Quote from: mac66 on January 24, 2012, 11:28:55 AM
Just thought I would bump this up a bit.

Got my bayonet issues solved and contacted a local guy who is the director and founder of the !st Michigan Fife and Drum Corps. The guy lives about a mile from me and has been involved in muskets and such for 37 years. I talked to him at length and he is going to bring me up to speed with Bessie.   Going over to his house Thursday to look at his muskets and stuff. His group uses reproduction Morgan's Riflemen uniforms. And of course I am going to fill him in on Appleseed. Already set the hook, just need to reel him in. Of course he is trying reel me in as well.

Take a look

http://1stmichigan.com/

So, uh, are those guys available on April 21st to make a trip over to Fenton?  <poke> <poke?    ;)

That is *awesome* Mac! So cool!

Regarding loose bayonets. There's a couple things going on I think  -


1. The design itself was a little sloppy - there are extant some bayonets the British had fixed with springs to keep them in place.

2. The Indian execution of the design. In the pre-interchangeable part era,  bayonets were individually fitted to a musket to ensure a good fit. The Indian factory I think solves the fitting problem by just oversizing the sockets. :\ Anyhow, yes - the socket is generally speaking too big in diameter on the examples I've seen so far. I've heard of folks either crimping the sockets out of round or gluing leather pads inside to tighten them up - I'll prolly do the latter at some point in the future.

3. The forward slot should extend a little past the bayonet lug, so that the base of the bayonet rests on the musket foreend. This is what slim is talking about I think. That way on impact, the force is absorbed by the body of the musket instead of the join between the bayonet lug and the barrel.  This is what slim was referencing I believe.


They are cool though! I'm thinking of stitching up some flags to go with mine -  especially a "Pine Tree" like you see carried in the "John Adams" film a couple years ago. :)

Yep, that is what I'm talking about. In some "unscientific" tests orchestrated by my wife (when she wasn't trying to run me through) we determined the force of the blow would be absorbed by the wood and not the barrel.


Have any of you folks shot 'em yet? I still haven't drilled mine or even broken it down. Any updates on tips/tricks/etc.?

It is kind of funny when you tell people you are with the RWVA. They kind of go "oh yeah" like maybe they have heard about it. When they think about it they get kind of a puzzled look as they "veterans" part hits them. Then they kind of go "wait, what?".  The guy from the drum and fife corps has been doing it and reenacting for 37 years, when I told him he said, "oh yeah, wait, what?  I didn't know there was such a thing."  "There is now," I said.  I just talked to the head of my city's library about doing a Libraryseed today. She said, "oh yeah, wait, what? Are you the guys who march in the parades?"   "Well no, that's the fife and drum corps" I had to reply.

Anyway, thanks for the help Kaylee. I have not yet drilled or done anything to mine yet. Waiting to meet with the fife and drum guy first.

Quote from: slim on January 25, 2012, 11:31:43 AM
Yep, that is what I'm talking about. In some "unscientific" tests orchestrated by my wife (when she wasn't trying to run me through) we determined the force of the blow would be absorbed by the wood and not the barrel.


Have any of you folks shot 'em yet? I still haven't drilled mine or even broken it down. Any updates on tips/tricks/etc.?

Oh yes, thought I mentioned that in an earlier post. Got about a dozen shots through mine. No tricks that haven't been mentioned previously. Running 90grs FFG and FFG in the pan works just fine.......O.L.

I've also seen that reaction several times, mac. It's priceless!

oladcock, are you grinding your pan powder or just pouring some down the barrel then pouring some in the pan? I need to read back through this thread again (Bess has been on the back burner for a few weeks due to more pressing issues) because I think I'm going to give it a go this weekend. Huzzah!   

I made up cartridges with the ball end dipped in parafin, tear the end off, pour it in, shove it down. No, not grinding the FFG, just fill the pan. Out of a dozen or so shots, just 1 fizzle and one mis-fire. The frizzen spring is strong enough the frizzen doesn't always flip out of the way and or the flint isn't long enough to flip it out of the way, I chalk up the 1 mis-fire to that. At some point I'll move the flint but I've been impressed how reliable the ignition has been using FFG for the pan and my ignorance with rock scrapers. FYI, I proofed it with 150 grs...O.L.

I'm getting fired up!

Thanks for the info, oladcock. I'm guessing 2 out of 12 isn't so bad. I wonder what the rate of misfires was back in the day? Any plans to loosen up that frizzen spring? Maybe it'll work itself out with use. Keep shooting!

Ola & Slim -- I've been sitting on my duff instead of proofing my Bess.  When you proof it with 150 grains of 2F, do you also load double balls?

Thanks,   OF

Must make one heckka of a bang, huh?

Quote from: slim on January 26, 2012, 08:25:27 AM
I'm getting fired up!

Thanks for the info, oladcock. I'm guessing 2 out of 12 isn't so bad. I wonder what the rate of misfires was back in the day? Any plans to loosen up that frizzen spring? Maybe it'll work itself out with use. Keep shooting!

That's what I'm thinking, it'll slack up a bit over time. I suspect it's more how far the flint sticks out to get the frizzen to cam over.

Any future cartridges I make, I won't use parafin, probably lard or tallow, parafin is too stiff and gummy making loading tough after 3 or 4 shots especially in cold weather. Will probably use .69" cal balls as well vice the .73" just so we can run more shots without cleaning. I never realized how "clean" the BP substitutes were until running this thing! LOL  In just a couple or three shots, it's nasty! :) What a bunch of wimps we are compared to our ancesters. I question how often or how well they cleaned them back then and how long they lasted if they didn't? It takes a good hour to clean but I might be too picky about it....O.L.

Quote from: oldfudd on January 26, 2012, 12:59:53 PM
Ola & Slim -- I've been sitting on my duff instead of proofing my Bess.  When you proof it with 150 grains of 2F, do you also load double balls?

Thanks,   OF

Must make one heckka of a bang, huh?

OF, I just used 1. Put it in a bench rest fixture, tied it down....Tied a string to the trigger, stepped back a good 15' and let her rip! Inventoried the parts after the smoke cleared, was good to go! :)...O.L.

O.L. -- thanks.  I think I'll do the same.  Don't want to stress this old design too much over the 150 grains of powder you used.  I appreciate your input.

OF

I just talked my Fife and Drum corps buddy and he says to Absolutely Not use a black powder substitute like Pyrodex.  What do those of you who have experience think?

Bezon Company,

quote from mac66 "Absolutely NOT use a black powder substitute like Pyrodex"


I think I said that in my very first post or two back in Oct 2011!
Gent's, Listen to us "old hats" @ this peculiar game!...........(charcoal puffers)

enjoy the toys

wohdoh nah
your most humble and obedient servent
Pvt Doyle 11th Virginia (Morgan's rifle company)

Re: flint

Flint should strike the frizzen 2/3 min to 3/4 way UP frizzen from the pan.
at a 60 degree angle.......by adjusting flint (for beginniers)....you have 4 different sides to each flint, depending upon how you install. (knaping flint and/or frizzen adjustment (timing)for advanced)


Re: fouling
Large sized powder granuals will produce more fouling. (incomplete/un-uniform burn rate)
My suggestion was and still is use 3F..........(better,more constisant (uniform)burn....less fouling

or purchace "goex reenactor powder"-(cheap)and using a wooden dowel grind your own.

I've asked a couple times over the years, no one with first hand knowledge has popped up yet....

Anyone who makes their own BP ever try making WHITE powder?  This is BP without the sulphur.  Supposedly makes MUCH less smoke and fouling than normal BP, trade-off is more difficult ignition.  Would need normal priming BP in the pan for a flintlock, could use white powder in the bore.

See here:     http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/recipe.html

(Specifically, the graph at about the middle of the page, comparing various percentages of ingredients to energy content.)

I don't have the opportunity to try this, but would LOVE to hear from someone who does...

SoM

Bezon SOM,  *tips hat*...My lady

I have made BP many times, and I know of the "white" powder of which you speak, yet have not used it. All folks and all campfires that I have been involved with, the substance has come up in conversations, but not with a good out come. Here's why, A colonial was quite fugal, and carried only what he needed, nothing more! if the item did not serve 1/2 a dozen uses it did not go alone for the ride (so to speak). also rarely did he carry two types of granules, let alone types of powder.

To control fouling is a matter of granule size, and packing of charge, to yield a complete, uniform burn.
I shoot a rifle more then my smoothie (both .62 cal/20 gauge) and I can load and fire without fouling issues all day long, saying that, blanks only is messy business do to fouling, (usually not a packed charge/also no ball to hold powder for longer burn). My loads are not "Overly" tight, yet also not loose (fall into the barrel) its kind of a trail n error adventure! to find your ball/patch combo that works for your rifle. With that said your type of patch "lube" can factor into fouling as well. (I use only natural ones / favorite is mink oil) And I can shoot to 200yd with a great deal of precision,... farther with an adjusted load.

does that help steer you?......sorry but I don't use the "white stuff"and most likely wont ever
(40+ of BP)

wohdoh nah
your most humble and obident servant   *cough*
Pvt Doyle 11Th Virginia

Well, I finally found the time to proof the old girl.  Since I've not yet totally figured out how to get the flint to consistently strike sparks, I took the easy way out and used 6" of cannon fuze to touch her off.  I first did it with 80 grains of 2F with a single .715 ball.  BOOM !!! , with no adverse results.  Next time I upped the charge to 160 grains of 2F and a single ball.  REALLY BIG BOOM !!!!!!.  Again, no adverse results except that the  recoil kicked her out of the sand bags I had used to support her. 

Next I shot her from my shoulder (using 80 grains 2F) -- really tough to get a sight picture because of the straightness of the stock.  Misfire first time, but she went off on the second attempt.  Subsequent attempts produced no spark -- had to "unload" her via cannon fuze.

After cleaning her up at home, I devoted my attention to why no spark.  Figured out the flint was not sharp enough -- ended up reversing the flint (end to end) and finally was able to get lots of spark.  WOW!  I'm ready to go back and let 'er rip. 

Thanks to all for the good advise and helpful comments. 

Dick

Cool Dick...Then you had to smell the stinking thing all the way home and a hour plus cleaning her up! LOL I used mine the other day in a hunter safety class, turn the lights off in the room and the shower of sparks leaves an impression! :)...O.L.

Bezon Gentlemen,

From time to time the trip (locked into the car/truck) can be over powering and odoriferous!

yet it should only take 20mins to clean the rifle!.......how are you doing it?

my list of items: tooth pick/feather, warm/hot water, soap, jag, brush, patches.......sweet oil (olive)
and mink oil.............and a rag

I'm enjoying the stories of success! thanks for sharing.......be forewarned!....they (muskets) can be addicting......and they are female.....watch for the evil, hexing, dirty looks between the women folk!
as you spend more time with them!.......bad juju....

noted that you used "cannon fuse".......I carry a small bundle of "Lucifer sticks" (matches).....I've only use once, and it wasn't even mine!.....twas Bob210s Bessie.......good to carry though

Oh I'm slow! LOL Same as any ML, hot hot water and all the goodies you mention, haven't used mink oil however. Caution to anyone wearing silver jewlery, wet BP residue has odd chemical reactions to it!  ++)...O.L.

Actually I'm pretty used to cleaning up BP.  Although flinters are new to me, I've been actively skirmishing with the N-SSA for about 12 years now, and currently shoot musket, carbine and revolver events.  Revolvers are the worst 'cause it's like having to clean 6 separate guns. 

I use a home-made BP solvent made up of wood alcohol ( the Irish gets saved for medicinal purposes only  ^-^  ^-^ ), Murphy's soap, hydrogen peroxide and water.  Does a great job and quickly cuts the carbon and other BP by products.  If anyone wants to know more, I'll post the "formula".  Only downside, is that if you have a cut, it can sting like the devil -- thus the need for the "medicinal" Irish  **) . 

Another thought is that I've hand made a strap type cartridge box for the Bess, and just made a belt frog to hold the bayonet and a tomahawk.  The plans are about 30 - 40 years old and came from an old RW reenactor I know.  If anyone has interest I'll try to post pictures, and will share the plans.  Personally, I think both came out looking pretty authentic. 

Dick

Good info everybody, keep it coming.   I met with the director of the fife and drum corps this week.  He as a British sergeant's sword from the RW and a drum from 1812. Gave me chills just to hold them.  He had 5 or 6 muskets.

Anyway, he suggested putting a pan guard on the musket to prevent side blast. His were brass.  Also a leather frizzen cover to prevent unwanted strikes.   Both good ideas and I am in the process of making both.

Picked up some black powder the other day at Gander Mountain which is the only place  could find it and have an order in for a sling and other accoutrements.   

Could someone who drilled the touch hole in their musket post a photo of where you did it.  I measured how forward the breach plug is and it looks to be a good half inch or so past the pan. I am not sure where or how to drill the hole now.

I doubt the way these were manufactured what I did to mine doesn't mean squat with yours. I drilled mine in the center of the pan but had to do so at a 20-30 degree angle. Use a rod and accurately mark how deep the plug is then transfer that to the outside and see what you've got. If the end of the plug is 1/2 forward of the pan, that's bad news. If it's 1/2" behind, no big deal, drill away. Mine was about dead even with the center of the pan requireing the hole to be drilled at a slight forward angle....O.L.

Mac -- I don't have a photo but I think I can describe where to drill pretty well.  First, I used the ramrod to measure where the end of the breech plug is relative to the end of the barrel.  Then I marked that distance on the outside of the barrel relative to the frizzen pan.  As best I recall the end of the breech plug was about 3/8" from the center of the frizzen pan (closer to the muzzle). 

I then used a center punch to mark the barrel at a point about 3/32" to the right of the center of the frizzen pan, and near the bottom (lowest point) of the frizzen pan.  Then I drilled my flash hole at about a 20 degree angle toward the muzzle.  The drill exited the breech plug just about center.

I then used a dremel to slightly egg out the frizzen pan toward the center of the flash hole.  When I was done, the flash hole was pretty much centered (vertically) on the frizzen pan with the bottom of the flash hole level with the bottom of the frizzen pan.  When you're done the frizzen pan should be polished to minimize any holding of moisture.

Another point I just learned is that different from percussion black powder muskets, you should NOT tamp the ball/wadding solidly against the black powder charge.  Just use the ramrod to seat the ball/wadding gently against the black powder.  Then, use a wire pick through the flash hole to try to create a channel or loose cavity in the powder charge.  Apparently this allows the flash from the frizzen pan to ignite the main charge in the barrel more easily.   Works for me, anyway.

If you still want a picture, send me a pm with your email address.  Good luck.

Dick

You guys have almost given me enough courage to start drilling.

Well I did it. I drilled the flash hole. I measured it, then marked it and broke 3 drill bits trying to drill it.  The breech plug was a good half inch in front of the pan. I tried to drill at angle but kept breaking bits. I finally drilled a little larger hole straight in a about a quarter inch and then drilled at an angle forward from that. Looks like heck but should work.

I also made a frizzen stall (cover) out of leather. Apparently it is a good idea to keep the hammer from striking the frizzen inadvertently.  I also made a pan guard. Basically a piece of brass that attached to the side of the pan that prevent side blast if you are standing next to the left of someone. I used a brass case from a 44 mag. Just eyeballed a picture of one online, cut open the 44 mag brass, shaped it, used the frizzen screw to hold it on. Both of those were recommended by my Fife and Drum Corps buddy. Both look kinda crude but are cheap and look like some field expedient fix which is ok.

Off to the store to buy some BP, waiting on some flints and a pick/tool I ordered.

"waiting on some flints and a pick/tool I ordered. "

The pick tool will be a waste of $$$ but good for show and tell, drilled at an angle it won't work. I used a piece of 1/16" music wire bent at a workable angle, only historic from the standpoint of improvise, adapt, and overcome! :)....O.L.

Quote from: oladcock on February 20, 2012, 03:42:09 PM
"waiting on some flints and a pick/tool I ordered. "

The pick tool will be a waste of $$$ but good for show and tell, drilled at an angle it won't work. I used a piece of 1/16" music wire bent at a workable angle, only historic from the standpoint of improvise, adapt, and overcome! :)....O.L.

Well you know the addiction. Have to have the tools to show. Have to have a possibles bag, then a haversack, to hang with the musket over the fireplace. Then maybe a cartridge box, powder measure, powder horn, priming horn, maybe a loading board to cover all the bases. Did I forget the bayonet frog? Oh, of course you need a bullet mold, ladle etc. Then maybe a patch knife. Pretty soon you're dressing up like Halloween.   ..:.. #)  :slap:

OK guys.... how are you carrying your Brown Bess around?  Mine is getting a little tired of the beach towel...

Has anyone found a suitable bag for it?

Quote from: Chainsaw on May 10, 2012, 01:24:28 PM
OK guys.... how are you carrying your Brown Bess around?  Mine is getting a little tired of the beach towel...

Has anyone found a suitable bag for it?

I use two gun socks. I put the butt in first as far as it will go and then the other sock on the muzzle. Fold the floppy part left from the butt over and then tie off the on from the muzzle end.  I am thinking of having my wife or daughter sew me up something that fits however. Can't decide what material to use.