Many appleseed instructors have after market or modified bolt releases on 10-22 loaner rifles and strongly encourage them as proper.
But what if someone used your rifle under your instruction and never learned how to release the bolt on a stock rifle?
What if that person shortly after the appleseed bought a new 10-22?
Our once beaming student suddenly needed to use that rifle and could not get the the bolt to close? Think dog attack on a neighbor or child.
Did appleseed fail that individual?
Our goal as instructors is to teach people to be effective.
The stock bolt release is easy to use, much safer because it take conscious manipulation to operate as opposed to an accidental bump.
If a shooter noes not have the ability to figure it out buy the time we shoot an AQT the they are not ready to be riflemen anyway.
Then there is the issue of liability for disabling a safety feature.
If a person chooses to have a bolt release then Godspeed, put one on.
But we should be teaching how to run a rifle with all saftey features intact.
This post is going to raise some hackles, I suggest a well thought out response.
I don't see the problem. I let every person using my loaner LTR know that it's modified from the stock bolt release.
And I would suggest that this scenario: "Our once beaming student suddenly needed to use that rifle and could not get the the bolt to close? Think dog attack on a neighbor or child" is a strawman argument.
I highly doubt that anyone is going to purchase a brand new rifle, take it home and NEVER shoot it until a "dog attack" or some similar event occurs. Certainly not someone who's gone through an Appleseed!
Every Firearms owner should take the time to familiarize themselves with the firearms they own.
And yes, I also always point out the the bold is modified, and not the stock operation.
To lock open: Pull slide back, hold bottom of slide release back, release slide
To release: Pull slide back, hold slide release up, release slide
I show them how once or twice, then watch them lock and unlock twice. That's usually all it takes for the rest of the weekend.
Also I've seen a shooter with a tuned 10-22 that had a bolt that wouldn't stay locked open. When putting in the chamber flag the bolt would shut on the chamber flag and the shooter would later have to fight to get the chamber flag out. I would rather have a standard bolt release than the hair trigger one that wouldn't stay open.
- ShadowMan
Who shoots an attacking dog with a 10/22?
For that matter if I saw a dog attacking a child I would'nt shoot it at all.
I would be afraid I'd hit the child. I'd wade in their and pull the mutt off the kid.
That is a bit of a stretch to make a point there Mark.
If you don't want to modify the bolt release then don't, but don't keep stirring the pot.
The previoud thread on this topic was closed by a moderator and this one should be as well.
Quote from: ShadowMan on October 17, 2011, 11:02:05 AM
To release: Pull slide back, hold slide release up, release slide
WRONG. If it was that easy we would not have this conversation.
To release the bolt: First pull the bolt to the rear. Then push the bolt release dingle ONCE and let go of the dingle. Then if your lucky the bolt will be free to close.
Holding it in will keep from closing.
With all respect , I believe this topic is worthwhile .
As mentioned in the previuos thread ,I regret changing the factory bolt lock.
My LTR does close the bolt with a light tap.
It has not fired ,but I fear it could under the wrong circumstances.
When at Kingman I was shooting an M14 --- the trigger pull began to change , finally I pulled the trigger really hard and nothing happened .
I put the buttstock on the ground and as I removed the mag ,the gun fired !
Not sure if the round hit the berm or went over it .
Just saying --stuff can happen and with AS intending to have millions shooting the odds of something happening increase.
So I will not advocate folks change the Ruger system and I believe it a mistake to do it for someone else .
Respectfully ,
JA
"To lock open: Pull slide back, hold bottom of slide release back, release slide
To release: Pull slide back, hold slide release up, release slide"
WRONG! Here in lies the problem. You have to pull the bolt back, push the slide release, let it go, then release the bolt. If you hold the release, it won't release the bolt like one would think. The frickin things are counter intuitive in their "stock" configuration and they are not easy for those with little manual skills and or small/weak hands. We can frustrate them to the point they quit and never come back or lead them into a life time of enjoyment by taking simple steps to smooth that path.....O.L.
Yes, they need to learn to use the rifle in their hands, it's not necessarily "their" rifle.
"My LTR does close the bolt with a light tap.
It has not fired ,but I fear it could under the wrong circumstances."
If a rifle fires when the bolt is released, that has NOTHING to do the the WAY the bolt is released. Go messing with the trigger, that's a different story. Sure have a lot of what we called "Sea Lawyers" in our ranks! :wb: .....O.L.
My $0.00002
The stock release works fine, once you work out its little "push and hold when locking open but push with a slight forward roll and release when unlocking" idiosyncrasies. And then, once the dust and dirt and took much rem oil work their magic during the day, the fighting with the release begins...
I would not loan a rifle where I had taken the stock part and dremmled away - liability issues rather than mechanical competence, but I see no problem with taking a widely advertised aftermarket part which is a drop in replacement - isn't that the sine qua non of the Ruger?
And finally, the fighting with the release shouldn't be too much of a problem if you've trained your shooters from Sat AM to "pull, the flag, get the bolt moving, you don't need to load from an open bolt" drill as any "fighting" will be in the pre-period not during the transition timed cofs.
My loaners have the aftermarket auto-release and have done over 60 shoots each and do not have a problem with hair trigger/knocked release. I'm willing to bet thats a more of a problem of home-dremmled parts.
Cheers
Phil
The real problem, in my opinion is:
The stock Ruger 10/22 is a crap rifle. There, I said it.
Sights, bolt release, magazine release, trigger, magazines, bolt buffer, internal metal work, access to barrel from reciever side, all problematic.
How many mods is it going to take? It'd be nice to have a quality rifle out of the box. Ruger could do this easily but chooses not to.
I almost forgot, sling swivels! Yet another issue.
I believe this is a valid discussion, with good points being made on both sides.
However, I believe the liability/safety aspect is a non-starter. I've tried on all of my 10/22's (3 of them, all with an aftermarket auto bolt release - 1993, 2010 and 2011 vintages), and the only way to get the bolt to drop is a SHARP whack on the rifle. The kind that would likely cause damage to the stock or other component, not just a little love-tap.
Even if the bolt does drop, the the hammer remains cocked. As far as I can tell, there's no way to close the bolt and have the hammer follow the bolt. So if the rifle was dropped, it still wouldn't fire because there's no way to release the hammer. And even if the hammer did somehow follow the bolt, the design of the bolt prevents slam firing due to the angle of attack of the hammer - it harmlessly hits the bolt, not the firing pin. So the trigger would still need to be actively pressed, while the safety is disengaged.
So, in order for an unsafe condition to exist, you'd need the following:
- A 10/22 with the auto bolt mod
- Loaded mag in the magwell
- Safety off
- Finger in the trigger guard/on the trigger
- Some kind of sharp impact to the rifle.
- The shooter surprised/caught off-guard that the bolt just closed, and squeezes the trigger as a reflex
Sound about right?
There's lots of other safety-related issues going on in this scenario much more important than the auto bolt release.
Quote from: Justin on October 17, 2011, 02:51:29 PM
Ruger could do this easily but chooses not to.
Like all commercial companies that are successful you build what your market wants/will tolerate. Sell perls before swine you'll go broke for what they are willing to pay for it. Sell em a sow's ear and you'll go broke cos no one will buy it. Sell 'em something just good enough at a price they'll just tolerate and the market is working....
Don't blame the manufactures its their customers. Producing a Nation of Riflemen who know what they are about and who demand the right things and the market will respond.... (as will the political market O0 ) thats our job, turning american consumer shooters into American Riflemen. Guess we need to work harder....
Tell your shooters to write to Ruger in their own words "Hey, Just attended an Appleseed where the instructors had cool rifles called Liberty Training Rifles. I looked into getting one, they are Ruger 10/22's, but then I found out you don't actually make one, I have to buy one and then modify it. The cost of this was prohibitive to me so I'm going to buy xxxx which has the features I need at the right price. Sincerely, new Marlin customer."
If they get enough of these maybe they'll build us an LTR. (And by the way, there's already been a thread about how you need a dealer to get custom build rugers in volume with discounts etc., etc, yada yada, so lets not reignite the infamous 60 page LTR thread ;) )
Cheers
Phil
Quote from: Justin on October 17, 2011, 02:51:29 PM
The real problem, in my opinion is:
The stock Ruger 10/22 is a crap rifle. There, I said it.
Sights, bolt release, magazine release, trigger, magazines, bolt buffer, internal metal work, access to barrel from reciever side, all problematic.
How many mods is it going to take? It'd be nice to have a quality rifle out of the box. Ruger could do this easily but chooses not to.
Yep, true with any sub-$250 rifle that I've seen. Itemize a little:
Sights, $40-$100, scope or Tech Sights.
Bolt release, $0, 15 minutes with a Dremal.
Magazine release, some come equiped, $6- and 10 minuets if they don't.
Trigger Nothing needed other than a few hundred dry fires and a 50 cent over travel screw from Ace Hardware.
Magazines, sand out the rough spots in the mag wells, round off corners and clean up mold flashing with a medium emery board stolen from your wife.
Bolt buffer, Not needed but nice, $5.
Internal metal work, None needed that I've seen?
Maybe polish where the bolt rides over the hammer with a Dremal, which I do to all ours.
Access to barrel from reciever side, 10 minuets with a 3/8" drill bit.
Improvise, adapt, and overcome, results in a smoothy running, reliable, user friendly shootin machine for little $$$. Add in a couple $20 used stocks cut to various lengths, a slip on recoil pad to add length, can be made to fit most anyone quickly, add 1.5# of lead to a synthetic stock and she'll shoot as tight a groups as a bull barrel, it's the weight that counts, not the "bull" part! :)........O.L.
Have'nt heard of the lead trick.
You adding that in the buttstock portion somehow ??
Quote from: Texas Rifleman on October 17, 2011, 05:43:16 PM
Have'nt heard of the lead trick.
You adding that in the buttstock portion somehow ??
No, in the forearm. There are 3 "voids", glued together some strips of wood to make a mold, poured lead then cut it to fit the voids, use JB Weld or similar epoxy. Could probably add some to the butt but it might be too much. Birdshot and epoxy would work too, just won't be as heavy. The balance feels very good with just the forearm....O.L.
thanx for the comments .
I enjoyed reading and learning from each .
I will no longer concern myself with the auto bolt release ,will install brownells aftermarket. V O0
This subject needs airing.
There are many posts on this web site about modified bolt locks, very little in favor of leaving them as built.
New instructors need to have facts from both lines of thought so they can make their own decisions about the rifles they buy, modify, and loan.
MD --- go ahead with the best reasons to keep orginal bolt open design .
Idealy of course ,the 22 is a starter rifle and when funds become available --I would advise the M14-
Ummmmmmmmmmm think I will take 30 seconds at each shoot to promote the idea everyone needs a MBR.
The right MBR should take us a while to figure out :)
Saftey.
Quote from: Texas Rifleman on October 17, 2011, 11:58:15 AM
Who shoots an attacking dog with a 10/22?
For that matter if I saw a dog attacking a child I would'nt shoot it at all.
I would be afraid I'd hit the child. I'd wade in their and pull the mutt off the kid.
That is a bit of a stretch to make a point there Mark.
If you don't want to modify the bolt release then don't, but don't keep stirring the pot.
The previoud thread on this topic was closed by a moderator and this one should be as well.
You are a braver man than I.
No one would argue that a stock 10-22 would not make a superb club. Used that way a mag clicked into the mag well would be good..... if your bolt was locked securely open.
Yeah, fit the lead to the voids and glue/epoxy it in - DO NOT pour molten lead into the stock. I've seen old single shot shot guns with lead poured into the butt stock - it cracks the wood in many cases.
Yeah, some folks have a "need" to accesorize and modify and the aftermarket folks make big bucks off that need. I only have one 10/22. Used when I got it for $125 several years ago. Add the sling swivels (took a different route than most folks), added the Tech Sights, added a butt stock extension on to make it fit me better, left the barrel band on it and it works great without most of the other add ons. But some folks like to add on. In this country we can still buy the gun we want and then modify it to fit our "needs". To each his own. If it gives you the confidence to get the job done then why not do it.
If you're big enough/stout enough to grab a dog by the back of the neck and the hair on the top of its hips (or its tail) and pick it up and toss it you can stop a fight that way. I tossed one of my 60 lb. dogs over a 4 ft. fence one day after he bit me while fighting his brother (who happened to be lying across my lap getting a belly rub when the jealous bas??rd started the fight. It only occurred to me as he was clearing the fence that he might break a leg when he hit the ground inside the pen - temper, temper, you know.) For the folks who put the life and health of dogs over the life/health of people let me say he seemed unhurt and somewhat surprised to find himself inside the pen once he got his bearings.
There will always be the folks who want to add on to make it better. And the folks who know its just fine the way it is. If we're not careful here Appleseed will be like the general population is becoming - a rule for everything and someday so many rules that its not worth being a part of it anymore.
Some folks need lots of rules to feel comfortable. Some folks just want to know what needs to be done and then left alone to do it. When the rule needing folks run into a situation that's not in the rules they are lost and sometimes have to wait till someone with higher authority comes along to tell them what to do. The other group just looks at the new problem and figures out a way to get around it and continue getting the work done. Which group do you belong to?
Old Dog,
I'm not looking for a new rule, but I think everybody should be aware of reduced safety by using an auto bolt release.
The after market parts installed might carry less risk of liability than a self modified one.
Reduced safety??? So anything without a manual bolt release is less safe? Sorry, I just have a heck of a time arriving at the same conclusion....
Quote from: Mark Davis on October 18, 2011, 10:14:19 AM
The after market parts installed might carry less risk of liability than a self modified one.
I don't believe for a minute that a jury of peers would see the subtle difference in either modification. In either case, the rifle is modified from factory spec and neither alteration would garner more or less favor with the attorney or jury. The owner would still be an evil gun enthusiast who modified their firearm and was thus negligent in the injury of another person.
Quote from: MisterAnderson on October 18, 2011, 01:09:02 PM
Reduced safety???
Hey, 10/22 thumb is a serious concern, here!! &)
Quote from: Mark Davis on October 18, 2011, 10:14:19 AM
Old Dog,
I'm not looking for a new rule, but I think everybody should be aware of reduced safety by using an auto bolt release.
The after market parts installed might carry less risk of liability than a self modified one.
See, that is an opinion with no FACTS to back it up nor is it logical. "Group think" is not what we're about, individual liberty. Leave me and my guns alone! :)....O.L.
The reduced safety comes into play when the bolt can close with an accidental bump as opposed to a conscious manipulation.
Quote from: Mark Davis on October 18, 2011, 10:24:44 PM
The reduced safety comes into play when the bolt can close with an accidental bump as opposed to a conscious manipulation.
My points are, to get an AD from a modified bolt release would require ignoring every other safety rule AND a mechanical failure at the same time. Not likely. The malfunction needed for an AD with an accidental bumping of the bolt, would happen with the stock release as well.
This notion of running scared of litigation is caving into exactly what they want us to do. It plays on the fear of extortion to modify our behavior. I ain't playing their game without a fight and they are winning if some would....O.L.
When I built my LTR the idea was to make it as close to an m14, m1 as possible. Tech sights, extended mag release, bolt release, swivel studs, sling etc. Though not perfect it is pretty close. If I hit the ground hard enough with the butt of my m14, or ar15 the bolt slams forward. I'm not going to change my m14, and I do not consider it un-safe because of it. If a light tap is all it takes for the bolt to slam forward on a 10-22 perhaps there is something else wrong. I have to hit mine pretty hard to get the bolt to slam forward, just saying. BTW I see no problem leaving the bolt release stock it is easy once you figure it out. Know your rifle, also pertains to know the rifle you are using.
D-fly
D-Fly
Good points - The bolt on my m14 will close with a not heavy hit -seems as the rifle ages ,it closes with less resistence.
Not sure why this occurs or even if it is a subjective observation. :D
I would surmise ,someone with more M14 knowledge than I will suggest a reason.(hopefully)
Yep, we got 4 - AR's and they'll all drop the bolt with a bump or slapping a mag in hard. Not an issue unless your finger is in the receiver! :) Keep in mind those that say we need to learn how our guns work, sure WE do, we're not talking about AS Instructors or those with an ounce of mechanical ability, we're talking loaner rifles for kids and those who can't pour pee out of a boot with directions written on the heel. The stock 10-22 bolt release is counter intuitive and I'd a whole lot rather be teaching marksmanship than teaching/assisting with bolt releases........O.L.
I own 7 rifles that will shoot 22LR. None of them are Ruger 10/22s. It has taken me a year on the line to FINALLY figure out how to release the bolt on a 10/22 reliably. Counterintuitive is an understatment. It was information that I certainly needed to know.
Thank you WH! :) One of the biggest mistakes I see we/us instructors/SB's make, we forget what it was like being young and inexperienced, where what seems to be simple tasks is so difficult for others. They'll get there, it just won't happen in an instant because we said so or it's so easy for us....O.L.
Wolfhound - You need to find the nearest red hat and punch them in the belt buckle and shout, "MENTOR ME!!!!!" in the same fashion Mr. Eckert showted "Avenge ME!!!!" in Red Dawn. If we aren't here to help people learn we will certainly help people lose.
Quote from: SPQR on October 19, 2011, 06:29:39 PM
Wolfhound - You need to find the nearest red hat and punch them in the belt buckle and shout, "MENTOR ME!!!!!" in the same fashion Mr. Eckert showted "Avenge ME!!!!" in Red Dawn. If we aren't here to help people learn we will certainly help people lose.
Red Dawn: the movie that keeps on giving... ;-)
- ShadowMan
I've never had an issue/problem getting the bolt hold open to work (once I figured out how it worked - now you know us men/guys/males never read the instruction manual) **)
Maybe there's a really good source of ideas here for someone with the equipment/time to turn into little short video's - or find out if they're already on you tube in a good enough form to be used/borrowed/referred to here. There are lots of discussions here (forum) that show the need for pictures/videos vs. typed words.
Something to think about.
Good point.
Quote from: intheburbs on October 17, 2011, 03:04:16 PM
I believe this is a valid discussion, with good points being made on both sides.
However, I believe the liability/safety aspect is a non-starter. I've tried on all of my 10/22's (3 of them, all with an aftermarket auto bolt release - 1993, 2010 and 2011 vintages), and the only way to get the bolt to drop is a SHARP whack on the rifle. The kind that would likely cause damage to the stock or other component, not just a little love-tap.
Even if the bolt does drop, the the hammer remains cocked. As far as I can tell, there's no way to close the bolt and have the hammer follow the bolt. So if the rifle was dropped, it still wouldn't fire because there's no way to release the hammer. And even if the hammer did somehow follow the bolt, the design of the bolt prevents slam firing due to the angle of attack of the hammer - it harmlessly hits the bolt, not the firing pin. So the trigger would still need to be actively pressed, while the safety is disengaged.
So, in order for an unsafe condition to exist, you'd need the following:
- A 10/22 with the auto bolt mod
- Loaded mag in the magwell
- Safety off
- Finger in the trigger guard/on the trigger
- Some kind of sharp impact to the rifle.
- The shooter surprised/caught off-guard that the bolt just closed, and squeezes the trigger as a reflex
Sound about right?
There's lots of other safety-related issues going on in this scenario much more important than the auto bolt release.
That sounds like what could happen while out walking your rifle and loosing footing and sliding/rolling down a steep bit of terrain.
On a controlled range like appleseed it is a non starter, but in the real world you have hit the nail on the head.
Mark,
Do you often walk around the woods, on unsound footing, with a loaded mag, bolt open, safety off, finger on trigger? I teach Hunter Safety and every one of those actions is in violation of the safety guidelines.
When crossing a fence or moving on unstable footing you should always UNLOAD the firearm, keep the safety on and the finger off the trigger.
If your hold open was modified or not would be the least of your worries if you had an AD.
What is the 3rd safety rule we teach ?
#3 Keep your finger off the tigger until the sights are on the target.
(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Quote from: douglas34474 on October 20, 2011, 05:38:02 PM
Mark,
Do you often walk around the woods, on unsound footing, with a loaded mag, bolt open, safety off, finger on trigger? I teach Hunter Safety and every one of those actions is in violation of the safety guidelines.
When crossing a fence or moving on unstable footing you should always UNLOAD the firearm, keep the safety on and the finger off the trigger.
If your hold open was modified or not would be the least of your worries if you had an AD.
No, I do not walk around with my finger in the trigger. But there are often sticks where I walk.
Quote from: yellowhousejake on October 20, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Quote from: yellowhousejake on October 20, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Quote from: yellowhousejake on October 20, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
LMAO
Love it.
2cl
(http://communities.ptc.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-1286-6326/DeadHorse.gif)
Seriously, I think it is time lock this thread.
Quote from: yellowhousejake on October 20, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/forum/smileyvault-popcorn.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
<----I need me one of those.....*s*
Quote from: TheIronMantis on October 21, 2011, 05:34:44 PM
(http://communities.ptc.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-1286-6326/DeadHorse.gif)
Seriously, I think it is time lock this thread.
<----"emotioncon"....liken it!
<----lockin thread........on board.....
I think all opinions have been stated, no one has been swayed by either argument, and we have shoots in need of instructors.
Locked up. Please, let's not start this thread up again.
YHJ