Is there any way to find out the burn rate on factory ammo? I enjoy hunting with my M1A. I purchased a quantity of Federal 150 gr Power-Shok right after buying my M1A. My rifle shoots it very well, 1.5 moa or less. This was before I found Appleseed and before I learned that the M1A and M1 require a midrange burning powder. I would like to find out if this and possibly Remington Core-Lokt ammunition is OK to use in the M1A. Any suggestions?
csw
Most of the time there's very little info out there on current commercial ammo powders/burn rates.
If you really want to shoot commercial ammo in your M1A (or M1 Garand) try one of those adjustable gas plugs. I've got a Schuster on the M1 Garand I shoot the most. The other well known brand is made by McCann (not sure if that's the way its spelled.
If you go the route of the adjustable gas plug remember it may need to be adjusted for the difference between 150 and 180 grain bullets (if you choose to shoot the heavier bullets).
You know, I've read some discussions on arfcom about (in AR15's) the empty case ejection pattern. Seems like (if I remember right) they say if the cases land in a similar area the pressure is similar. Say for example if the military surplus brass (ammo that is okay for the M1A) lands mostly at 3 o'clock from your rifle then other ammo (military surplus or commercial) that also tosses the brass out at that 3 o'clock position has a similar pressure at the gas system (similar pressure pulse = similar op rod speed). Not saying its proven science and they are talking about AR15's but it sounds plausible.
You could use reloads with hunting bullets and IMR4895 powder (if that's what you use for the fmj bullet loads). I couldn't hunt with what my M1A really liked but the next best thing for me was the Sierra 165 grain spitzer boat tail. Your rifle might like something else better.
Good luck with it. Hunting and taking deer with my M1A always gave me a good feeling (knowing I could carry it all day and use it to hit what I needed to hit in spite of the temperatures, the weather, etc.) Nothing like sitting down in the tall grass on a point over looking several hundred yards (in four directions at a low gap in the mountains) and having it snow 4 or 5 inches on you while you're hunting till the last minute (dark). Great days when I was younger and living in the mountains. Have fun, that's what its about.
Thanks O.D.,
When I first bought my M1A (pre-Appleseed) I bought some "Match Grade" .308 from Georgia Arms (168gr & 175gr) and a few boxes of the Federal 150 gr Power-Shok. The Federal shot very well out of my rifle, Better than the Match Grade stuff and it is fairly cheap. Back then the Federal was $12.97 at WalMart. I ended up with around 1,200 rounds of it. I have around 600 rounds of the Georgia Arms stuff and another +/- 400 rounds of reloads. I know not to use the reloads in the M1A because they are loaded with IMR4350. Thanks for that bit of education also. Unless I find out the Federal is OK for the M1A it looks like I am in the market for an adjustable gas plug and more education (how to use it). Also looks like I have a pretty good supply for my Model 700 .308.
Thanks again,
csw
When the 308 was designed it was optimized to use the powders available at the time. Those are the same powders that are being used today. Imho most factory ammo for 308 is perfectly safe for use in the m1a. Handloads that use too slow a powder and the newer super performance are of course a no go for any gas gun. Bottom line factory ammo is fine for the 308. The garand however is another matter. It is ment to run with the same powders that make the 308 happy. In that respect the warnings are correct.
I emailed the below message to Geprgia Arms, a local ammunition supplier/manufacturer. My email and their response is below. I also called Federal. I will post (sorta) their response in a seperate post.
csw
To: gaarms@bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 4:14 PM
Subject: .308 Ammo for M1A
Sir or Madam:
I own a Springfield Armory M1A. When I purchased the rifle I also purchased several hundred rounds of Georgia Arms "308 Winchester Match Grade" 175GR Boat Tail Hollow Point ammunition. My question is, is this and your other .308 ammunition loaded with powder that falls within the acceptable burn rate for M14 / M1 type rifles. I have come to learn that powders with too fast or to slow of burn rates generate to high port pressure and will damage the gas system and/or operating rod. I fully understand if you are reluctant to provide the specific powder you use. While that information would be great I really just need to know if the powder used for this ammo falls within the acceptable range. It is my understanding that the fastest burning powder that is acceptable is IMR 3031. The slowest burning powder is IMR 4064. Can you provide information as to whether your .308 ammo falls within this range. I also own a Rem. 700 in .308 so this ammo will not go to waste if it is not suitable for the M1A.
Thank you for any help you can provide. I have used a number of your products and have been very satisfied with all of them.
Craig S. Whitfield
Their Reply:
FW: .308 Ammo for M1A
TO: You
CC: 1 recipient
Show Details
Hi Craig, we use a commercial propellant the same speed as H4895, which is in the burn range you specified. It is the same speed powder that Federal uses for their match 308, so it is intended for the purpose you have indicated. We have tested many thousands of rounds through an M1A with no problems at all.
Thanks.
Curtis
After stumbling around on Federals website last Friday I finally called one of the 800 numbers listed and asked for "Product Service". Got a recording instructing me to leave a voice mail. I did but did not expect much. I actually got a return call this afternoon with a fairly detailed voice mail (I had jury duty). The message was basically that they manufacture, under their American Eagle brand, ammunition for the M1A (product # A76251M1A. This was the only ammunition they make that they recommend for M14/M1A type rifles. It is supposedly equivalent to military match ammo. The message also left a name and phone # to call if I had further questions, so I called. The gentleman was very helpful and considerate. I explained that the American Eagle was not suitable for hunting. I understand if they can't provide specific information but I was just trying to find out about the burn rate of their Power-Shok ammo. He asked I he could call me back and did within about 10 minutes. He again stated that the only product they recommend is the American Eagle but thousands of rounds of ammo like Power-Shok had been fired through M14/M1 type rifles without any problems. I pushed a little further on can you tell if the powder you use falls between "X" & "Y". He seemed to agonize for a moment before saying they won't let me give you that. The man was super nice and very helpful (we discussed other things also). I am surprised he was able/willing to provide the information he did. Bottom line is Federal does not recommend any of their products other than the American Eagle for use in the M1 & M1A.
Now on to Remington.
csw
OK I just finished emailing back and forth with Remington. Bottom line is they won't provide any info other than their ammo is loaded within SAAMI specs for the .308 WIN. I was impressed at how quickly and courteously they answered my questions even when I pushed for more info. The last response was "Happy to help with what we could. Sorry we could not be more specific." Even though they would not provide the specifics I was asking for it was very refreshing to actually get prompt and friendly customer service.
csw
Have two M1A's (Loaded and Super Match)
Getcha one of these for use with hotter loads and/or slower powders and see if your stick will cycle reliably - http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16374&cat=0&page=2
Using this vented gas plug will cause your rifle to short-stroke with M80 and M852 equivalent loads, but will allow you to have more versatility with hotter loads and slower powders without beating your rifle up.
Have used this plug in pursuit of a better 600 yard HP load successfully with some pretty hot 175 gr SMKs (hand-loaded M118LR equivalent) in the Super Match with no problems (still searching for a "better bullet" ;D). YMMV
Good luck, Sir.
BTW - had success with my first M1A (loaded model) several years ago with 165 gr Nosler BT and RE 15 using Sierra's "accuracy" load recipe for their 168 gr SMK (look it up yourself) and the standard gas plug. Shot a buck @ ~150 yards and put him down with one shot.
It was nice to be able to say that I had killed something other than paper and steel with this rifle after several thousand "practice" rounds.
Git-R-Done! :---
The caliber is the key here.
.308 ammo calls for a medium burning rate powder. That's essentially somewhere in the IMR-4895/WW-748 range, exactly what you want. The offending slow burning powders aren't going to work very well in the .308. So, though I can't vouch for ALL .308 ammo, the majority of it will be correct.
.30-06 ammo is a whole different situation. It works well with both the same medium rate powders mentioned above, plus the slower powders that will cause problems.
Add to that the rifle issues. The difference in the powders is port pressure when fired (gas pressure at the gas port). The M14 clones (M1A) have the port much closer to the breech than the M1 does (which is almost at the muzzle). The M1 is much more sensitive to powder burn rate than the M14 clones are, plus they are usually .30-06 caliber, which is frequently loaded with slower burning powder. I don't recommend using IMR-4831 or IMR-4350 in either rifle, but, I'll also tell you they also aren't very efficient (or common) at all in .308 ammo either.
My best recommendation is to load your own ammo. Next best is to find a local professional reloader that will use medium burn rate powder in your ammo. A good professional knows about what I mentioned above. If you find one that doesn't know that, keep looking for one that does, and you trust.
Now, some factory loads specify that they are made for use in M1 Garands. They are what you're looking for.