Greetings all!
During the debriefing following the Myakka City, FL Appleseed (27-28 August 2011) it was noted that a large number of shooters was suffering an abnormally high rate of malfunctions. They were all 10/22 shooters, all tried as many as 7 types of ammunition, and all of them had outfitted their rifles with an aftermarket charging handle that is distinctly oversized. Every rifle was cleaned halfway through Sunday, and while the malfunctions were less frequent, they dogged the shooters till the very last.
I post this, because it seems to corroborate internet grumblings I'd run into the past. The complaint is that an oversized charging handle (specifically, one twice as large in the vertical component) will impact an ejected case on its travel home, smacking it BACK into the ejection port. This creates not only the expected stovepipe, but can also cause a double feed if the round the bolt was TRYING to chamber is not cleared properly. To a new shooter, this usually takes them out of the course of fire.
Without definitive proof, I'm hesitant to say anything other than, "If you see a shooter experiencing continued malfunctions after ammo/magazine changes and/or a cleaning, consider removing the oversized handle and see if that action solves the problems."
I experienced this same issue with an oversize recharging handle on two different 10-22 rifles. The problem went away on each rifle as soon as I removed the oversize recharging handle.
Terry
The folks who design and market aftermarket accessories for most anything usually have not spent the time/effort to properly engineer those accessories to work with whatever they are being sold to work with.
Some accessories are great/useful but most are just sales gimmicks.
If you've been shooting a gun for awhile and you make a change or two and things go wrong its pretty easy (or should be) to diagnose the problem and then go back to the original parts. If you buy a new (to you or really brand new) gun and add accessories then it can be tough to figure out what is going on.
I have Power Custom titanium charging handle, which is oversized, but not by a lot. For some reason, the extraction problem started when I replaced the barrel.
The problem went away when I installed a stronger extractor spring.
On the same issue, I found I was able to swap the larger charging handle to a different rifle and the issue did not follow. I like a larger charging handle for use by kids, low finger strength is less of a problem if they can get two fingers on the charging handle
What exactly does the over sized charging handle look like that was causing the issues ? Is it a certain make or model to be watching out for ?
Here are several different examples of over sized charging handles out on the market that I found... Is it one of these ?
Example A
(http://www.tacticalinc.com/imagemagic.php?img=zOHCytncks3N29XI18mQpZaYkZyX2NPb&w=500&h=400&page=)
(http://www.tacticalinc.com/imagemagic.php?img=zOHCytncks3N29XI18mQp5aYkZyX2NPb&w=500&h=400&page=)
Example B
(http://www.galatiinternational.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/SUCHSM.jpg)
(http://www.eabco.com/OSBolt01_small.gif)
Example C
(http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/v/vspfiles/photos/RT-TCH001BHF-2.jpg)
Any help to identify which one(s) would be greatly appreciated...
Thank You
WK2
I have had a 1022 for a long time. Really enjoy it. My son's M&P15-22 had a mechanical malfunction that put it down for the day. I gave him my 1022 to use, and I was lucky enough to borrow another 1022 from someone else.
I had issues with it. Then I noticed that the aftermarket charging handle was loose. It was one that where the actual portion that one grips is threaded on. Might have weighed more than the OEM one, might have had a different resonance because of being loose that caused the bolt to act strange, I don't know. It was irritating as I expect a 1022 to be "bulletproof" in most aspects.
Quote from: WK2 on August 30, 2011, 03:23:03 PM
What exactly does the over sized charging handle look like that was causing the issues ? Is it a certain make or model to be watching out for ?
Here are several different examples of over sized charging handles out on the market that I found... Is it one of these ?
Example A
(http://www.tacticalinc.com/imagemagic.php?img=zOHCytncks3N29XI18mQpZaYkZyX2NPb&w=500&h=400&page=)
(http://www.tacticalinc.com/imagemagic.php?img=zOHCytncks3N29XI18mQp5aYkZyX2NPb&w=500&h=400&page=)
Example B
(http://www.galatiinternational.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/SUCHSM.jpg)
(http://www.eabco.com/OSBolt01_small.gif)
Example C
(http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/v/vspfiles/photos/RT-TCH001BHF-2.jpg)
Any help to identify which one(s) would be greatly appreciated...
Thank You
WK2
I have "C" on a build I did. Never a problem with it cycling or stovepiping. Runs Smooooth.
Sparks1
I was the SB for the aforementioned shoot, and though it is not an exact match, the malfunctioning rifles had something similar to 'type B' in the post above.
Again, we cannot definitively state that the charging handle was the problem, but having cleaned the rifles, examined the extractor area, and swapped ammunition, we were unable to solve the issue. Process of elimination points to the charging handle, but as we did not change or remove the charging handle extension (these attached by way of set-screw) we cannot state unequivocally that it is indeed the culprit...
Considering I've never seen any issues with 10-22's that wasn't cleaning related, I'd pitch those things in the trash! :)...O.L.
Enlarged charging handles for 10/22's. A solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
I was the IIT at the event. After digging around the internet looking for a match, I believe this was the product they were using:
http://www.1022central.com/jumbo_cocking_handle.php (http://www.1022central.com/jumbo_cocking_handle.php)
While I can't be sure this was the cause, some product reviews online seem to reflect the same issue. The upside is that it should be relatively easy to remove if it is indeed the problem.
One thought. The oversized charging handle I have on two of my 10/22s has worked flawlessly, but a word of caution. It came with a tiny holding pin at the end of the rod to keep the spring in place. The rod wasn't flared at the end to help contain the spring. The pin is to be removed when installed in the rifle.
When we had a firing problem with one of our 10/22s the gunsmith who looked at it, thought there was a pin missing at the end of the rod/spring and PUT ONE IN THERE!!!! This is NOT a good thing to do. So, if there's a cotter pin or a little straight pin at the end of the rod/spring, I would recommend removing it. Yes, it's a bit of a wrestling match to get the rod/spring/handle back in place and you'll wish you had at least 3 hands, but it can be done and it is right.
Initially, my Sporter 10/22 malfunctioned with stovepiping brass on 10% of all shots, out of the box. That amounts to 1 round in each stage of the AQT!!! Was I a little irritated with that or what? I changed out the extractor with a Volquarten 'sharp edge extractor' plus a polyurethane bolt pin buffer and a VQ hammer and spring and haven't had but one stovepipe in 2000 rnds now. (I know the hammer and spring probably doesn't factor in but I did that change at the same time, so I included it here).
I don't know how much tolerance leeway there is for the bolt, but I would think something that is 0.5ml could certainly affect the effectiveness of the ejector getting ahold of the brass adequately. There are really so many variables, I don't see where the external portion of the handle, which is all that is in that package, could affect the internal workings, so I would suspect something else, IMO If it is example 'B', I would guess it came with that holding pin and I'd want to check for that possibility.
Thanks for the good discussion!
Patriot Gal
Here's what I use and it works well. From Power Custom. Click to enlarge and you can see the small holding pin.
I was also on the line that day and believe it was a width issue and not length.
Due to the fact that I have seen many,but none as wide, like the pic posted only solid plastic ergo.
x2 on "solution for a problem that does not exist." O0
The factory bolt handle is readily accessible, and does not require additional area or leverage for cycling the .22 bolt even for the slightest or petite operator - the oversize handle seem to be much more cosmetic than functional.
That being said - amongst my 10/22 "larder" I have one that I converted to Mach2. As I was piecing the conversion together, I attempted to retain the .22 bolt which required a replacement bolt handle that had a large heavy tungsten button for a handle to add mass to the bolt assembly. It was a nightmare for reliability and I had to revert to a complete Volquartsen Mach2 bolt replacement. The extra mass out on the handle resulted in a lot of levered forces on the recoil spring and guide on that side. Although a lighter oversize bolt handle may not show as dramatic effects as the tungsten weight, I believe that any additional unnecessary weiqht out there will have a similar negative effect.
Quote from: ID_Hezekiah on September 01, 2011, 12:24:21 PM
x2 on "solution for a problem that does not exist." O0
The factory bolt handle is readily accessible, and does not require additional area or leverage for cycling the .22 bolt even for the slightest or petite operator - the oversize handle seem to be much more cosmetic than functional.
That being said - amongst my 10/22 "larder" I have one that I converted to Mach2. As I was piecing the conversion together, I attempted to retain the .22 bolt which required a replacement bolt handle that had a large heavy tungsten button for a handle to add mass to the bolt assembly. It was a nightmare for reliability and I had to revert to a complete Volquartsen Mach2 bolt replacement. The extra mass out on the handle resulted in a lot of levered forces on the recoil spring and guide on that side. Although a lighter oversize bolt handle may not show as dramatic effects as the tungsten weight, I believe that any additional unnecessary weiqht out there will have a similar negative effect.
Yes sir, any extra mass beyond what was designed will cause malfunctions that wouldn't occure otherwise, along with any extra drag on parts. These after market springs, if they were 1/2# differnce from factory, that would cause problems as well. If it ain't broke, don't mess with it! :) ...O.L.
So we all know the science behind all this, I'll take a moment to explain.
Most (almost all, if not all) semi-auto rimfires work on the "blow back" principle.
Some things that are extremely critical in the operation of a blow back are cartridge power, bolt mass (weight) and recoil spring strength. Change any one of those 3 items, and you have just changed the operation parameters of the rifle.
In plain language, make the bolt (and all items that move with it, like the charging handle) heavier or lighter, you change the operation. Make the spring heavier or lighter, you change the operation. Rework to a different caliber (like from .22 LR to .17 Mach II, or from .22 Mag to .17 HMR, or any other change), you change the operation.
The engineers that designed the rifle were pretty smart, as evidenced by how well the rifle works out of the box. They spent many hours testing it, after they spent many hours calculating the parameters.
You alter the rifle like mentioned above, you just changed the parameters. It's no longer as reliable, and might even be dangerous.
A side note for those that tend to read too much into things. Changing from one type of .22 LR ammo to another type of .22 LR ammo usually doesn't make enough effect to kill the reliability. That being said, don't expect your 10/22 to function properly with .22 CB Long ammo (or .22 Short, or .22 Subsonic). Not going to happen.
Having messed with about as many 10/22 as most folks will even see i can tell you a few things about aftermarket handles. size does not matter. weight matters some and spring rate matters a TON. most all of the aftermarket handles have a different rate of spring. Mostly "extra power" springs. this is no good. it retards the timing of the gun and causes stove pipes. if you run an aftermarket handle you need to make sure everything is slicked up good. once it's slicked up the timing will advance to the point where reliability will return. also fitting the extractor or replacing it a good aftermarket one will help negate a retarded timing issue but wont fix it completely since it is just masking the fact that the timing is retarded. FWIW a properly timed 10/22 will chuck cases about 6 feet out from standing. if your less than that or your having stovers you need to advance it unless your WAY out there then you need to retard it some.
Nickle, I like it. I always thought that quote from Col. Cooper about the double action semi-automatic pistols was so true. "An ingenious solution to a non-existent problem."
Quote from: nukeofhazard on August 31, 2011, 10:47:29 PM
I was the IIT at the event. After digging around the internet looking for a match, I believe this was the product they were using:
http://www.1022central.com/jumbo_cocking_handle.php (http://www.1022central.com/jumbo_cocking_handle.php)
That product is what I had installed on both of my 10/22's but I no longer expereienced any problems one I removed the jumbo cocking handle.
Terry
Quote from: sashok.privetov on August 30, 2011, 01:07:13 PM
I have Power Custom titanium charging handle, which is oversized, but not by a lot. For some reason, the extraction problem started when I replaced the barrel.
The problem went away when I installed a stronger extractor spring.
I have the same problem with my 10/22. I installed a Tactical Solutions bull barrel and my gun started jamming like crazy. Where did you find a good solid extractor spring?
Quote from: Beastmode44 on September 03, 2011, 09:56:06 PM
Quote from: sashok.privetov on August 30, 2011, 01:07:13 PM
I have Power Custom titanium charging handle, which is oversized, but not by a lot. For some reason, the extraction problem started when I replaced the barrel.
The problem went away when I installed a stronger extractor spring.
I have the same problem with my 10/22. I installed a Tactical Solutions bull barrel and my gun started jamming like crazy. Where did you find a good solid extractor spring?
Power Custom. I suggest getting their titanium extractor as well.
The barrel I have was a replacement from Clerke, but this time I seated it all the way down, using emery cloth. the first barrel, I did not know about the emery cloth, and I had to hammer it in. As such, it was seated in just enough, but not all the way down, and I had no extraction problems.
I have the VQ (Not going to attempt spelling that) and have never had any extraction issues with it.
Cool ok thanks