I would like to add a bit of perspective. As Fred has said repeatedly, shooting is the hook. Our mission to save America is reliant upon us inspiring Americans to get up off of the couch and become involved. It is the history we tell and not the shooting which does this. People come to Appleseed for different reasons but they should all leave being inspired to become Riflemen.
Whether someone shoots their first 210 with a race gun, a match rifle or a lever action does not make them less or more worthy to receive their Rifleman patch. Perhaps the shooter with the race gun does not own a rack grade rifle. I am not going to insist that they must go out and purchase one before attending an Appleseed and receiving the message of April 19th 1775.
The 2 extremes of Equipment Snobbery are the person who spends a fortune trying to buy the best of everything for their rifle while looking down on those with "cheap" equipment and the other is the person who looks down on another for having anything but what their definition of a rack grade rifle is. Neither attitude is what Appleseed is about and neither is productive for the mission. Your AQT score really doesn't matter once you can consistently shoot at least a 210, you have accepted an Orange Hat and have joined up on the Appleseed trail as an instructor.
The message from Fred at his AIBCs is that we are in the Instructor making stage of our development. We cannot have more shoots without more instructors. Appleseed is a self improvement program. The person who bugs you the most as a shooter may turn out to be your best friend as an instructor. You will learn quickly as an Instructor that the equipment is not as important as the shooter if you have not already learned that lesson.
O0 O0
Yeah, it ain't the rifle. It's the shooter pulling the trigger.
One of my proudest moments was taking 1st place in a 3 gun shoot (rifle, shotgun, pistol) during the rifle stage. With an AK, iron sights, plain stock. Everyone else had an AR with all sorts of tricks. It was 50 ft, timed, with 20 clay pidgeons setup for each shooter. Do it as quick as you can. Tac shooting.
I cleaned it with one shot per clay. Fast. Didn't need a mag change.
I came out 3rd or 4th place overall after all was said and done. But I still remember the rifle part.
I was the only one with an AK. There were SWAT members, Snipers (yeah, real ones from Ft. Hood), and all had expensive attachments. (ACOGS, AimPoints, EOTechs, etc). And I kicked their hineys.
You should have seen my smile coming off the line. And the looks of astonishment on those watching.
This occurred at a Copperas Cove range, at old Lloyd Leppo's, about 6 years ago. This was before I'd even heard of Appleseed. I'd like to think I'm a little better shot now.
And the history. Most people that have never heard it think it's gonna be boring. This ain't High School here kids. This is the real deal.
I always get a fuzzy warm feeling when people come up to me after hearing the history and say "That was really good, thanks for what you guys are doing."
Equipment snobbery on the part of the shooter is a non issue as long as they aren't trying to run down another student who brought something rackier.
Equipment snobbery on the part of an instructor.....
If you have never shot an AQT with with a 10/22 or 795 or something similar with Tech Sights, if you have only shot AQTs with one rifle, which you glassed and tuned and turkeyed with to make it your personal perfect rifle, what do you really know about relating to a student who just bought a 10/22 off the shelf and slapped some tech sights on it and showed up to an Appleseed? Hopefully you know a great deal and can communicate well and get them going in the right direction and they can walk away shooting like their hair's on fire. Unfortunately there are those among us that cannot. I am a firm believer in the rack grade rifle rack grade ammo concept. I don't require it for students. As instructors we should require it for ourselves. It should be a matter of course and spirit.
A couple seeds ago it was late on Sunday and it started to rain. My woman was working the line but we were instructor heavy and she asked the LB if she could bring a rifle to the line. She ran to the car and got out a rack 10/22 with tech sights and laid down and shot a 238 in the rain without any sighter squares and no prep time. She knows nothing about shooting that Appleseed didn't teach and has only been shooting for about 18 months. I have run into instructors who quail at the suggestion of such a thing and whose knees shake at the suggestion that they demo an AQT in front of students.
Its the software, not the hardware.
I'm not much of a fancy-pants... but I do buy good equipment. Take care of the equipment and it will take care of you.
I do have a theory on the Equipment Snobs... I think they are so busy looking around to see who is looking at them, they don't have time to line up on the target.
At my first AS, after I shot Rifleman with my AR, one of the instructors said I should come back next time and try it with my 10/22 (which I had used the day prior to develop my fundamental Appleseed skills, only switching to the AR for the AQT's.) I thought that was kind of an odd thing to say, but on the way home... the more I thought about it... he's right. I was frustrated with my 10/22, I didn't have time before the AS to get it set up properly and I really struggled with it prone, but there is no reason I shouldn't be able to qualify Rifleman with it as well, or pretty much any other rifle I line up with... particularly if I intend to wear an Orange Hat some day...
Quote from: Charlie98 on August 29, 2011, 08:43:49 PM
I was frustrated with my 10/22, I didn't have time before the AS to get it set up properly and I really struggled with it prone, but there is no reason I shouldn't be able to qualify Rifleman with it as well, or pretty much any other rifle I line up with... particularly if I intend to wear an Orange Hat some day...
There you have it. I will say that a Rifleman score with a race gun is fine, I will not begrudge anyone the patch. But... if you have a perfect fitted stock, a 1 lb trigger, a scope you can count the rings of Saturn with, are you learning as much?
Will you know how to control yourself and tame a heavy trigger? (It's all in the angle and position of your finger)
Will you understand that you can change your index to the target to adjust for a different length of pull? (longer length of pull, larger angle from the sight line)
Will you understand that a glint on a worn front post will move your POI? (Hold away from the glint, or make a paper sight hood)
Will you know how to position your head to make up for a high/low comb? (drop your face off center right/left, and put more/less cheek on the comb)
We teach shooting fundamentals, with rack grade rifles, the skills which allow us to shoot well with just about any rifle we pick up.
It's a tougher lesson to be sure, as a SB we may not make as many first time Riflemen, but the road to Rifleman is worth it to those who get the idea, and practice, return, succeed.
I have no goodies on my rifles, and I don't mind if yours has them all.
YHJ
"A couple seeds ago it was late on Sunday and it started to rain. My woman was working the line but we were instructor heavy and she asked the LB if she could bring a rifle to the line. She ran to the car and got out a rack 10/22 with tech sights and laid down and shot a 238 in the rain without any sighter squares and no prep time. She knows nothing about shooting that Appleseed didn't teach and has only been shooting for about 18 months. I have run into instructors who quail at the suggestion of such a thing and whose knees shake at the suggestion that they demo an AQT in front of students."
I just love this one. I agree completely. I've suggested this before and like you I got the "oh no, what if he/she goofed up and didn't shoot good groups/get a good score, then we (RWVA) would look silly."
Either you can do it or you can't.
I must confess I'm in the group that looks the other way and chuckles when I see the guy with $4000 worth of match rifle and high dollar scope on it show up to shoot at 25 meters (or even 400 meters). I find it harder to keep my chuckles suppressed when the youngster with the stock .22 rifle outshoots the adult with a gun/scope combo that costs more than most of the cars I've driven over the years (had to change that statement slightly as I finally bought myself a new car after 35 years of buying/driving used cars).
The only mods to my 10/22 are the Tech Sights, the 1&1/4" wide GI web sling and sling swivels and the plastic 1" butt extension. Why mess with the trigger? My M1 and M1A do not have match triggers. Why put a match barrel on it? It shoots great as is. Its true you've got to be able to use your tools but it should be about improving your skill with your tools - not buying accessories that help you avoid the time/effort required to improve those skills.
I think discussions like this are a good thing. Sometimes we have thoughts/opinions that we don't voice until we find that others of us have similar (or different, but still thought provoking) ideas/opinions.
I relate it like this -
"If you hand your son a $185 ceramic TPX bat and expect him to hit home runs, it's probably not going to happen. But, if you buy him a little wooden $10 Louisville Slugger T-Ball bat and he learns the proper stance, how to swing correctly, to follow through (and I accentuate the follow through) then he'll learn to hit home runs and if he can do it with the $10 bat.... imagine what he's going to do once he gets that tricked-out, $185 ceramic bat.
.... But, it doesn't work the other way around. That nice bat doesn't equal home runs. Only the time, effort, practice and persistence of learning the proper technique and what it takes to make a good swing is what leads to home runs. After that, the bat he uses doesn't really matter, does it?"
If the guy with the $1200 10/22 still doesn't get it I'll tell him the story of the little girl in pigtails who shot a 232 with a stock 10/22.
If that's ineffective, I'll tell him about the guy who shot a Rifleman score with a Cricket.
There are alot of good replies here. We can all agree that spending more on your rifle will not buy you a Rifleman score and that technique trumps equipment every time. It is good advice to new shooters and those who struggle to shoot a 210 after 1 or more Appleseeds that practice and persistence with reliable equipment is the key.
I don't want this to be one sided and for anyone to miss the other half of the message. Snobbery against those with high dollar equipment is no different than snobbery against low dollar equipment and is actually more common. Some get bent out of shape if a quality modern rig with optics is brought to the line. Some even feel that they should be penalized and that this is an unfair advantage. Since Appleseed is not competitive shooting, how can anything be "unfair"?
Our goals are to spread the heritage and history of April 19th 1775 and to make more Riflemen. We can not do either if we do not make Instructors out of Riflemen. It is irrelevant what equipment is used to score 210 once they put on their orange hat. If someone shoots 250 with a race gun and do not become an IIT, they certainly would not have become an IIT if they shot a 210 with a bone stock 10/22.
QuoteIf the guy with the $1200 10/22 still doesn't get it I'll tell him the story of the little girl in pigtails who shot a 232 with a stock 10/22.
If that's ineffective, I'll tell him about the guy who shot a Rifleman score with a Cricket.
And when that fails - move on and spend your time on someone who
did bring the #1 item of kit - a teachable attitude. O0
Nothing wrong with fancy gear - God bless 'um if they be so prosperous. We're looking for hearts and minds - who cares about the hardware?
Quote from: PHenry on August 30, 2011, 06:10:40 PM
QuoteIf the guy with the $1200 10/22 still doesn't get it I'll tell him the story of the little girl in pigtails who shot a 232 with a stock 10/22.
If that's ineffective, I'll tell him about the guy who shot a Rifleman score with a Cricket.
And when that fails - move on and spend your time on someone who did bring the #1 item of kit - a teachable attitude. O0
Nothing wrong with fancy gear - God bless 'um if they be so prosperous. We're looking for hearts and minds - who cares about the hardware?
Thanks PHenry...most important thought>>>Hearts and minds.
While most of my rifles will shoot 1moa or better, ( due to an obsession with accuracy on my part) I do struggle with my M-14 that shoots 4moa , but I won't trick it out 'cos I want to shoot rack grade. That said I have trouble with irons>>>eyes are close to 60 yrs old now and the scopes help.
I care less what a student brings, just get involved and bail.
Another issue that could be described as ' equipment snobbery' is pretty much exclusive to instructors. And I see more and more of it.
Ever seen an instructor start swapping in LTR's before they even give the shooter a chance to show what they can do? How about before even the first Redcoat?
Without even saying it - heck you may not even know it - but what you're telling the shooter, right off the bat is that thier rifle isn't good enough. That they came with the wrong equipment and should have been better prepared. But they're happy in the end, right? Cause they learned how to shoot - less the frustration, right? Probably, but....
What they're really gonna do, is go home put thier rifle in the safe, and not touch it again untill they've got it ready for another Appleseed. Chances are things will happen and it and thier shooting skills will be put on the back burner to simmer away for all eternity.
If they don't come back; how will they bring a friend with them? Besides, they're gonna tell all thier friends that programs great, but you need a different rifle. So, they'll never end up getting to one.
So, their goes our attendance objectives.
Then, since they're never gonna score Rifleman - They're never gonna be instructors.
How can we staff a shoot once a month, in every county, if we don't get anymore instructors?
Then again, we won't need to - Cause there won't be anyone to teach. They're all waiting untill they can upgrade to a rack grade....
We all want our shooters to shoot better. Chances are a lot of them will do better with YOUR rifle. But unless they can go home with YOUR rifle, you're not doing them any favors. Just a bandaid to get them through the weekend.
Remember - it is run what you brung.
No matter what they brought, I see no reason they can't make it through the first half of Saturday.
And for gosh sakes; the first Redcoat. - I don't care if they didn't bring ammo - They can dryfire the first RC with THIER rifle!
"Run what you brung." Is my favorite part of being on the line. I like to see what other people brought From FAL's to 10/22 to Marlin lever to Cricket.
My favorite part is the History, especially Dangerous Old Men.
It is not the gun the weapon is the person behind the trigger.
Back to Bailing
QuoteBack to Bailing
Exactly. O0
Quote from: Stand on August 31, 2011, 12:02:17 AM
"Run what you brung." Is my favorite part of being on the line. I like to see what other people brought From FAL's to 10/22 to Marlin lever to Cricket.
My favorite part is the History, especially Dangerous Old Men.
It is not the gun the weapon is the person behind the trigger.
Back to Bailing
Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks, Stand!
- ShadowMan
Patrick Sweeny, in the Book of the AR-15, said "Buy equipment that's good enough, then spend the rest of your money on practice ammo". Seems to sum it up pretty darn well.
Quote from: AFTERMATH on August 30, 2011, 09:43:34 PM
Another issue that could be described as ' equipment snobbery' is pretty much exclusive to instructors. And I see more and more of it.
Ever seen an instructor start swapping in LTR's before they even give the shooter a chance to show what they can do? How about before even the first Redcoat?
Without even saying it - heck you may not even know it - but what you're telling the shooter, right off the bat is that thier rifle isn't good enough. That they came with the wrong equipment and should have been better prepared. But they're happy in the end, right? Cause they learned how to shoot - less the frustration, right? Probably, but....
What they're really gonna do, is go home put thier rifle in the safe, and not touch it again untill they've got it ready for another Appleseed. Chances are things will happen and it and thier shooting skills will be put on the back burner to simmer away for all eternity.
If they don't come back; how will they bring a friend with them? Besides, they're gonna tell all thier friends that programs great, but you need a different rifle. So, they'll never end up getting to one.
So, their goes our attendance objectives.
Then, since they're never gonna score Rifleman - They're never gonna be instructors.
How can we staff a shoot once a month, in every county, if we don't get anymore instructors?
Then again, we won't need to - Cause there won't be anyone to teach. They're all waiting untill they can upgrade to a rack grade....
We all want our shooters to shoot better. Chances are a lot of them will do better with YOUR rifle. But unless they can go home with YOUR rifle, you're not doing them any favors. Just a bandaid to get them through the weekend.
Remember - it is run what you brung.
No matter what they brought, I see no reason they can't make it through the first half of Saturday.
And for gosh sakes; the first Redcoat. - I don't care if they didn't bring ammo - They can dryfire the first RC with THIER rifle!
two comments on this
A. If a usable sling cannot be fit to the rifle, a large part of the instruction is mute(starting immediately after the redcoat)
B. Experience has told me that loaning slings, swivels and magazines will result in some loss of such. No one walks away with whole rifles so I only loan rifles, not parts
is this wrong ?, should I be expected to loan and install my parts on other rifles/take the loss?
At the first shoot I worked in Castle Rock, we had a shooter that had a working rifle, but the newly purchased sling they brought with them didn't work. Swivels were stitched on both ends of the sling and their rifle had 1" swivels screwed into the stock (not swivel posts). Other instructors had 1.25" slings aplenty, but no 1" version of the military sling we use.
I happened to see a 1" nylon strap with a slip-buckle on one end (it was 3 or 4 feet long). During a prep period I slipped that strap through their front swivel and through the buckle in a way that allowed them to use it as a loop sling. It wasn't pretty, but the student saw the effect of the support provided by the improvised "sling." They also learned that a Rifleman adapts, a Rifleman overcomes and a Rifleman persists.
- ShadowMan
Quote from: George63 on September 01, 2011, 12:05:27 AM
two comments on this
A. If a usable sling cannot be fit to the rifle, a large part of the instruction is mute(starting immediately after the redcoat)
B. Experience has told me that loaning slings, swivels and magazines will result in some loss of such. No one walks away with whole rifles so I only loan rifles, not parts
is this wrong ?, should I be expected to loan and install my parts on other rifles/take the loss?
Great comments,
A) I have seen excellent instruction given, and lessons learned, to a student without a sling. I have seen at least two, that come to mind, return with a sling later. The lessons learned without a sling stuck, like the six steps. They also get the lessons on safety, operation, the AQT, transitions, mag swaps. Plenty to carry to their next Appleseed. Don't forget the message that a Rifleman perseveres.
B) I feel your pain although I never suspected intentional wrong doing on the part of a student. I have taken to putting florescent pink on my mags. I am planning to put the same on my slings, SPQR writes on his in Latin ( I suspect it says either "this sling is stolen" or "twelve socks go in the dryer, eleven come out." )
Several other SB have stated that they keep a list in a notebook and ask the student to write their name and the item they borrow in the book. That seems to create a "trust" that your equipment will be returned.
YHJ
Quote from: George63 on September 01, 2011, 12:05:27 AM
B. Experience has told me that loaning slings, swivels and magazines will result in some loss of such. No one walks away with whole rifles so I only loan rifles, not parts
is this wrong ?, should I be expected to loan and install my parts on other rifles/take the loss?
If my instructor had not loaned me a sling for my 10/22 and AR, I probably would not have been able to complete my course of instruction... I did not have the appropriate sling coming into the Appleseed.
If a person is honorable, they will return your property. I would no more have walked out with someone elses property than anything... >:(
Scuzzy,
Congratulations on your shooting accomplishment!!! Well done!
Relative to the topic, I wanted to remind you of a shoot where we were together down in Davilla, Dec. 2009. Your brother and my two sons were shooters on the line that day.
Do you remember the rifle of yours that your brother used to achieve Rifleman at that shoot?... You know, the rifle that was stovepiping left, right and center until you and I put that new Sharp-edged VQ extractor in that I just happened to have??? If I remember correctly, the stovepiping stopped and he was able to achieve Rifleman as he was no longer fighting the rifle but was able to perform well what he had learned.
That's why I loan out my 10/22s that I have "fixed", because they are reliable shooting rifles. That way the shooter isn't fighting against the equipment but is able to shoot according to what they have learned and are able to apply. I don't rush to loan them out, but if I see a shooter who really seems to be fighting the equipment, when everything else seems to be good, then I will offer one of my loaners to them. I do like to keep the rifle, sling and mags all together as it is easier to remember what-went-where. I'm sure I have lost a sling or two and maybe a mag, but I try not to worry about it, just keep learning to be more organized with my loaning of things and get back to bailing.
My two sons were using my two Ruger 10/22s during that shoot in Davilla. It was their first Appleseeds. Interesting that both they and your brother were the only ones who made Rifleman that shoot. At a subsequest shoot in Waterman, my niece and nephew used my two Rugers at their first Appleseed. They both made Rifleman. ;D
Altho' I'm sure both our families have exceptional "shooting" genes, sometimes (IMHO), it can be the equipment. O0
Good discussion.
Patriot Gal
Quote from: scuzzy on August 29, 2011, 05:36:42 PM
Yeah, it ain't the rifle. It's the shooter pulling the trigger.
One of my proudest moments was taking 1st place in a 3 gun shoot (rifle, shotgun, pistol) during the rifle stage. With an AK, iron sights, plain stock. Everyone else had an AR with all sorts of tricks. It was 50 ft, timed, with 20 clay pidgeons setup for each shooter. Do it as quick as you can. Tac shooting.
I cleaned it with one shot per clay. Fast. Didn't need a mag change.
I came out 3rd or 4th place overall after all was said and done. But I still remember the rifle part.
I was the only one with an AK. There were SWAT members, Snipers (yeah, real ones from Ft. Hood), and all had expensive attachments. (ACOGS, AimPoints, EOTechs, etc). And I kicked their hineys.
You should have seen my smile coming off the line. And the looks of astonishment on those watching.
This occurred at a Copperas Cove range, at old Lloyd Leppo's, about 6 years ago. This was before I'd even heard of Appleseed. I'd like to think I'm a little better shot now.
And the history. Most people that have never heard it think it's gonna be boring. This ain't High School here kids. This is the real deal.
I always get a fuzzy warm feeling when people come up to me after hearing the history and say "That was really good, thanks for what you guys are doing."
Quote from: Charlie98 on September 01, 2011, 03:14:45 AM
Quote from: George63 on September 01, 2011, 12:05:27 AM
B. Experience has told me that loaning slings, swivels and magazines will result in some loss of such. No one walks away with whole rifles so I only loan rifles, not parts
is this wrong ?, should I be expected to loan and install my parts on other rifles/take the loss?
If my instructor had not loaned me a sling for my 10/22 and AR, I probably would not have been able to complete my course of instruction... I did not have the appropriate sling coming into the Appleseed.
If a person is honorable, they will return your property. I would no more have walked out with someone elses property than anything... >:(
Charlie98,
No one questions your honor in any way nor was an accusation of theft made. Sometimes in the thrill of an Appleseed some folks will inadvertently forget to return borrowed items, or it is possible an instructor who loaned out individual items may have to leave an Appleseed early and forget to ask for them.
All of the instructors I have met have been happy to loan items to help shooters be successful at an Appleseed (such as yours did), but it also sounds like there is some loss occurring. Just trying to find solutions here on the forums - and thank you for your feedback.
- ShadowMan
When I started out I was really enthusiastic and I loaned out items like the staple gun, the sling, the sight adjustment tools, magazines, even rifles. Eventually that stopped. People moaning and groaning about my rifles (they worked great for me and are tack drivers for Appleseed purposes) and watching them get the muzzles dropped into the dirt, magazines dripped into the dirt, ammo dropped into the dirt and then loaded into the magazines/rifles, no attempt/offer to clean or even help clean them ended the rifle loaning. Getting to the end of the weekend and packing up without my (to me anyway) prized "M1A4ME" engraved staple gun ended the staple gun loaning. I barely got back some M14 magazines at one appleseed. I didn't get back brand new GI web slings. Etc., etc. and I stopped loaning out items. Was it partially my fault? Oh yeah. I got so busy with the appleseeding that I forgot who I'd loaned what to and didn't make it back over their way to tap them on the shoulder before they packed up and took home equipment they didn't bring with them. I accepted it was partially my fault and came to the conclusion that the only way I could solve the bleeding (the RWVA does not reimburse me for lost personal equipment) problem was to stop loaning. A personal choice. These days I do well if I remember why I got out of the chair and went to the kitchen/bathroom, I sure can't remember who I loaned what to.
Before anyone takes exception to the above statements let me say I did intentionally tell a couple of folks they could keep what I'd loaned them. Every now and then some folks (kids especially) deserve a little extra reward for outstanding behavior and performance and the equipment was a small reward. If those folks remember those situations, I still feel you had great kids you should be proud of.
Darn this is getting to be a long post.
Can you shoot well without a sling. Sure. The sling makes it easier and you'll probably do better with one. Can you shoot well with a bolt action rifle? Sure. I've seen several folks get a rifleman patch on their first Appleseed weekend with both rimfire and centerfire bolt action rifles so they could probably do as well, or better, with a semi auto rifle.
Don't come to an Appleseed thinking everyone has to have certain equipment in order to make the grade. The basic list make it easier for many folks to learn easier/faster and shoot better but some folks may resent being told they have to change. As my boss told me at work the other day when I got some additional work loaded onto my plate. It sort of went like this, "We know you can do this better than the person who has been doing it. But we needed the person who has been doing it to realize that as well. Now we can give you those responsibilities with no hard feelings from the other person for having those tasks "taken away" from them." Same for us at appleseeds. It will work out better if the shooter sees they might benefit from borrowing your equipment/loaner rifle vs. you telling them to make the trade.
Its a people thing sometimes. It better to offer than to force it.
My best experiences are to do with people who show up with a smile and I outfit them with everything and they leave the weekend as contenders and not pretenders.
[/quote]
A. If a usable sling cannot be fit to the rifle, a large part of the instruction is mute(starting immediately after the redcoat)
[/quote]
I've had lots of luck using zip ties around the front of the stock and barrel, on a factory 10/22 you can just slide it right up against the barrel band. I think this would work with every rifle I can imagine.
We usually announce at the end of the day to please return anything you borrowed from someone else. Haven't lost anything valuable, I don't believe.
Quote from: Roland on September 01, 2011, 05:47:03 PM
I've had lots of luck using zip ties around the front of the stock and barrel, on a factory 10/22 you can just slide it right up against the barrel band. I think this would work with every rifle I can imagine.
This zip-tie idea is great! I found a big container of Zip ties at my local hardware-tool discounter (Harbor Freight) so bring a bunch of these is easy.
I wonder if we could improvise a loop sling from para cord with a bowline or slip-knot to make the arm-loop end (loop diameter) adjustable?
I used a tautline hitch for this once, it worked okay, just had to make sure it wasn't coming undone.
Quote from: George63 on September 01, 2011, 12:05:27 AM
B. Experience has told me that loaning slings, swivels and magazines will result in some loss of such. No one walks away with whole rifles so I only loan rifles, not parts is this wrong ?, should I be expected to loan and install my parts on other rifles/take the loss?
The way I make sure I get my parts back is to take a Drivers License or car keys as a deposit.
Always seems to work.
2cl
Quote from: 2 clicks low on September 08, 2011, 04:21:34 PM
Quote from: George63 on September 01, 2011, 12:05:27 AM
B. Experience has told me that loaning slings, swivels and magazines will result in some loss of such. No one walks away with whole rifles so I only loan rifles, not parts is this wrong ?, should I be expected to loan and install my parts on other rifles/take the loss?
The way I make sure I get my parts back is to take a Drivers License or car keys as a deposit.
Always seems to work.
2cl
You by any chance end up with 1999 Escort zx2, 5-speed with sunroof? I'll trade you a sling for it? ^:)^
George, you shouldn't be expected to loan out anything.
While a sling is a major component of our POI, if they're listening they'll have a least a general concept of sling usage. But actually your observation of no one walking away with whole rifles does seem to be valid. -Though I know of at least one Instructor who inadvertently swapped rifles. ???
If that's your way of being able to loan stuff out, without the loss - that's fine.
If the shooter could really use it - Great!
Just avoid the impulse automatically throw it in thier hands when you see their setup is not ideal.
We had a young man come to one of our shoots, new to the sport, brand new lever tubefed, right out of the box. He was only there for Sat, but ended up shooting 180's by the end of the day.
He came to another one, same rifle but a freshly mounted sling. Got a solid Rifleman's score on one of the earliest, if not first AQT.
It's never the rifle, just the man behind it.
I've found the best means of tracking gear that works for me is:
I don't have a clue what all I brought!
So, I don't know if it's missing. ++)
My loaner slings say
"A strong man may fall but not yield"
"Not without great labor is the truth discovered"
"Who desires peaces prepares for war"
"The name of my father was Julian Huffman and his son loved him"
"The strength of my arm is a servant of my mind"
"The body may wear but the mind is indefatigable"
"Those socks belonged to a witch"
I have given a couple away and I don't remember what I wrote on them. I would trade one sling or a mag or a swivel for a Rifleman or a kid who just discovered that marksmanship is learnable and not black magic. They can use my rifles, too.
On equipment attrition:
I don't sweat it. A sling here, a swivel there, it is no more expensive than what I used to spend shooting my own ammo. Oh, there's that too - the ammo students eat up of mine.
I am not wealthy, actually quite the opposite. But I decided one day that spending my political donation funds in loaners, and tithing in hot brass is the best way to spend what I have to share in making a better future is better than what I did before.
And I am not gonna let a loss of a sling fuss me none or take any bit of the smile off my face watching those shooters in their bubbles.
O0
Techres
P.S. Oh, and sometimes I come out ahead. At the last shoot someone took one of my rifle bags and left me theirs instead. Theirs was WAAAYYYY better than mine.
Deleted by OP.
Reason: Humor will not work with this one.
reconsidered
Quote from: George63 on September 09, 2011, 01:56:41 AM
as I started this tread down this diversionary path I will respond to this: I am not "sweating" slings etc getting away. I am making a plan for this to not happen and executing this plan, you me and most all other instructors give away a lot of ammo, that is not much reason to also give away sling etc BTW the main reason stuff going missing irritates me is not the expense of replacement but the disruption of organization. When I organize my setup, not for my own use but to aid the shooters, missing items disrupt the system.
And you are a better man than I as I have given up on the disruptions. I envy that kind of organization. Keeping the slings with the rifles is a slick solution to the problem. I am simply to weak in the face of a shooter needing a sling.
Give me another year and I probably will jbweld the slings on the rifles and keep me from giving in... O0
To get back on subject.
I've watched students shoot all kinds of rifles and it always makes me wonder if I could shoot rifleman with what they bring to the line. I've watched them shoot SKSs, FALs, M1a, AKs, MN 91/93s, AR15 etc.
So far I haven't seen anyone shoot rifleman with them. Of course there are also the tube feds, bolt actions and even a slide action 22 on the line. I've not seen any lever actions yet.
Fortunately I was able to put together a diverse collection of rifles back in the day (when some were cheap) before I retired. One thing I've done is try to run through a course of fire for each of those types of rifles. For example a couple weeks ago I watched a guy struggle with his M1a for two days so last week I took my M1a to the range to shoot a simulated course of fire to see what problems he might have had. (mag changes are a big issue as well as recoil) I've also run though the COF with my AR, AK, SKS and Mosin.
I've learned a couple things. First each rifle has unique challenges. Second, if you practice with a 22 rifle with a web sling and tech sights and get the techniques down, then shoot any other rifle with the same web sling and military peep sights (or similar) what you learn with the 22 directly transfers to the other rifle once you've learned the unique aspects of that particular rifle.
Mac66 of the list of Rifles you give I have only seen Rifleman made with the AR15...and more than once.
if you want a nice challenge, try to shoot the score with a bolty, even a 22 is tough
Quote from: mac66 on September 09, 2011, 10:32:36 AM
So far I haven't seen anyone shoot rifleman with them. Of course there are also the tube feds, bolt actions and even a slide action 22 on the line. I've not seen any lever actions yet.
Fortunately I was able to put together a diverse collection of rifles back in the day (when some were cheap) before I retired. One thing I've done is try to run through a course of fire for each of those types of rifles. For example a couple weeks ago I watched a guy struggle with his M1a for two days so last week I took my M1a to the range to shoot a simulated course of fire to see what problems he might have had. (mag changes are a big issue as well as recoil) I've also run though the COF with my AR, AK, SKS and Mosin.
I've learned a couple things. First each rifle has unique challenges. Second, if you practice with a 22 rifle with a web sling and tech sights and get the techniques down, then shoot any other rifle with the same web sling and military peep sights (or similar) what you learn with the 22 directly transfers to the other rifle once you've learned the unique aspects of that particular rifle.
I concur. What you and SPQR stated should hit the heart of every instructor. What we are trying to do is teach our shooters to shoot 4 MOA with rack grade rifles, yet we ourselves don't. I regularly try to 'qualify' with other rifles so that I can become more familier with them. This helps me out tremendously when I approach a fumbling shooter on the line. Also being familiar with their style of rifle helps with your credibilty.
Unfortunately, I have yet to full complete both rapid fires with my mosin on 1 AQT. It'll happen though...)
Adversity is merely opportunity wearing problem clothes. ^-^