Project Appleseed

There are many posts regarding the merits of small base resizing for rounds destined for ARs and many refuting said posts.  What Say Ye Appleseed Reloaders?

I did have some feed problems until I started SB resizing...

CH

Better question is, "Do you want to increase the chances of your reloads working in ALL rifles of the caliber?"

THAT is what SBDs do.  You might have A rifle that functions fine with anything you can cram in the magazine, but ALL rifles aren't that way.  Reloading with small base dies make it more likely that your reloads will work with any random rifle.

So, if you have ONE .223 you are reloading for, the answer might be no.  If you have several, any one of which may be used to fire any random reload, then the answer is likely yes...


SoM

When picking up dies for 223 I was told to use SBD, sooo...... That is what have used for the last 4 years of AR shooting.

IMHO ........what SOM said  O0

I've never had a problem with resizing for my Colt H-bar with standard RCBS dies, but I have a new RRA (with a chrome chamber) that I'll be loading for now as well, so we will see.

If you have just one rifle to feed, and your current dies work, I probably wouldn't bother upgrading, but as some of the others mentioned, if you are feeding a family, an SB would be a good idea, especially with military brass.

I also load 7.62mm for my M1a... some guys use SB dies exclusively, the jury is still out for me.

 O0  to what Son of Martha wrote.
My brother and I have several AR's in 308 and have found years ago that SB dies are necessary, not for all the rifles but definately for some.

I shoot my reloads through several AR15's and only one has given me any issues.

My newest build, expected to be my favorite AR with all the handpicked custom parts, has turned out to be extra picky.  The RCBS X dies seem to be the ticket for it.  The Lee or Pacific dies have worked for the other AR15's without issue.

I don't use a small base die, I do use a RCBS percision micrometer.
Just feeding one AR here. The die is set to make average shoulder lengh .003 shorter than the fired brass from my rifle.
Feeds well with long case life.
Already have enough gray hair, and have no desire to feed more needy rifles.

I was given a Rockchucker and some Hornady dies so I didn't pick out what I got.
The dies I have are not small base.
I set them up following the directions with the dies and I had problems with some jamming hard into the chamber and being all but impossible to get out.
***I was loading duds by the way, not live rounds as a way to practice the motions and to have some action proving dummies***
Then I set it up using directions downloaded from RCBS which were just a very tiny different than the others, and it seems to work better.
Which I think is weird, because I was under the impression that RCBS actually makes the dies for Hornady and so would think the directions would be the same.
Anyway, I haven't actually loaded any live rounds yet and since I'm mixing and matching instructions, I may try to get someone else to do the initial test shots...  :D

 If your standred dies are set up correctly then your reloads will function in 99% of all firearms. There is no need to overwork your brass everytime you resize.

Hornady dies and my reloads have worked in over a dozen A.R.'s with no problems.



  S.W.

If I may make a suggestion... get a cartridge headspace gauge, it makes die setup much easier than cycling them through a rifle.

Essentially, a headspace gauge (I use Wilson, but there are others...) is a steel cylinder with a chamber cut in it, you can use it to determine case overall length (to see if the case needs trimming... important in autoloading rifles and bottleneck cartridges in general...) and easily determines if the shoulder is set back enough (or too much, which is just as bad.)  It's also an easy way to check chambering of assembled rounds.

They are $25 or so and well worth the money.

Until the Russian stuff doubles in price, why reload .223 at all?

Quote from: slim on August 16, 2011, 10:10:59 AM
Until the Russian stuff doubles in price, why reload .223 at all?

More consistant ammo...hence more accurate ammo. Why not shoot the best, save the russian stuff for zombies!!!

Quote from: Charlie98 on August 16, 2011, 10:09:46 AM
If I may make a suggestion... get a cartridge headspace gauge, it makes die setup much easier than cycling them through a rifle.

Essentially, a headspace gauge (I use Wilson, but there are others...) is a steel cylinder with a chamber cut in it, you can use it to determine case overall length (to see if the case needs trimming... important in autoloading rifles and bottleneck cartridges in general...) and easily determines if the shoulder is set back enough (or too much, which is just as bad.)  It's also an easy way to check chambering of assembled rounds.

They are $25 or so and well worth the money.

O0 O0 Yes sir! learned my lesson on that. We're using an RCBS Comp. Die set and was shooting one day and had one the wouldn't chamber fully. Hum...Kicked it out, run along fat dumb and happy 30-40 rounds then another.... We're feeding 3 guns and those that wouldn't chamber in one, would in another and occasionally none. Bought one of the Wilson gauges and I'll find a couple per hundred that won't pass. So...if I had it to do over, I'd get the small base dies. Since then I'm loading .308 to feed an LR-10 and got a small base die and Wilson gauge for it, haven't found any that won't pass the gauge but I check just to make sure....O.L.

Quote from: slim on August 16, 2011, 10:10:59 AM
Until the Russian stuff doubles in price, why reload .223 at all?

Two reasons for me personally;

1) Reloading extends my shooting enjoyment.

2) I really like shooting American made ammo.  ;)


  S.W.

I have a set of SB X-Dies that I have never had the need to use.  I would find it hard to believe that a properly set up FL sizing die on a good press would not work.  "Match" or otherwise tight chambers may require it, but tight chambers are for bolt guns :).

OL & Charlie are you talking about one of those Over All Length Gauges like Hornady's where you screw on a cartridge and insert it into the chamber and it moves a bullet around until it seats just right? Like here?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=479963 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=479963)

I had looked at those and thought that it was a good idea.

Quote from: TN_Dadx5 on August 16, 2011, 01:41:22 PM
OL & Charlie are you talking about one of those Over All Length Gauges like Hornady's where you screw on a cartridge and insert it into the chamber and it moves a bullet around until it seats just right? Like here?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=479963 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=479963)

I think they are talking about a gauge similar to the following: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=456614 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=456614).  I have a couple of friends who use these types of gauges when loading for semi-auto rifles and pistols.

- ShadowMan

The Wilsons work but dont give you a number.

The RCBS, Hornady, or MO gauges are superior.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=477756

See post #53

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=12934.30

Quote from: TN_Dadx5 on August 16, 2011, 01:41:22 PM
OL & Charlie are you talking about one of those Over All Length Gauges like Hornady's where you screw on a cartridge and insert it into the chamber and it moves a bullet around until it seats just right? Like here?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=479963 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=479963)

I had looked at those and thought that it was a good idea.

TN_dad, No, what you show would be for bolt guns where you are trying to set bullet depth just off the lands, not an issue with semi's since that would result in OAL too long to fit in a magazine with most rifles. Shadowman has the right device.

Aromatic, for any given rifle/die set, you're right, but there is enough variation between rifles/die sets that it may or may not. I wouldn't have bought the guage if I'd never seen the problem. With the guage, I know for certain every round will chamber instead of finding out in the middle of a COF..O.L.

Quote from: oladcock on August 16, 2011, 03:19:37 PM
TN_dad, No, what you show would be for bolt guns where you are trying to set bullet depth just off the lands, not an issue with semi's since that would result in OAL too long to fit in a magazine with most rifles. Shadowman has the right device.

I don't reload my 5.56mm or 7.62mm ammunition to that standard, although I could probably learn how to use the Hornady tool and what it all means...  :o  ...before my brain exploded from data overload.  If you are shooting benchrest or, as OL mentioned, a bolt gun with a tight or match chamber I could see such a tool.

I'm just talking about reloading safe ammunition that will chamber reliably in my autoloading arms.

SBD, especially if used military brass is used.

RCBS SB dies were designed to fix a problem that Normal RCBS dies have. thats the simple fact that they dont size the brass as much as a typical die set from any other maker. thus RCBS makes the SB dies to "fix the problem". any other die set from any other maker will size brass plenty for function in any auto loader.

+1 for only sizing the brass enough to fit in the chamber.

  My understanding of the function of small base dies is that they return the case to 'specs', though it is usually stated that they 'overwork' the brass,,, so I'm not sure where that would put the parameters of standard dies. 
**I've used both standard and small base dies in autoloaders w/o issue but for the last few years I've used small base for the autoloaders. They run through my sticks and they have run through other guns as well w/o probs.
I load a fair amount of 'surplus' components, the ammo is reliable and shoots within 'specs'.
^^Occasionally I'll do a production run of higher grade projos, and take greater care in selection of components and case prep.
++ No matter what, it has to function and fire reliably, and should zombie day ever dawn, it will probably be used in weapons other than mine as well.

I have loaded range pick up LC XM193 brass with a RCBS non small base die for years.  It has been used in multiple different rifles of mine and others and has never caused a problem with 55gr FMJ or Soft point ammo.  I always suspected feeding problems were due to uninformed folks having fouled chambers that needed cleaning but maybe that was oversimplification.  I was told that the small base dies were used for commercial pumps and semi autos and my mentors had never used them in a military semi auto.

"I always suspected feeding problems were due to uninformed folks having fouled chambers that needed cleaning but maybe that was oversimplification."

You won't find those on this site! :)...O.L.

The Bottom Line?

Some rifles need them, some don't. Not talking model or brand here, talking specific rifles.

I've rarely seen need to use a .223 SB sizer. .308, on the other hand, I have, especially if the brass was previously fired in a Machine Gun, especially an M60.

Should you have SB sizers on hand?

Yes, just in case you get the need. But, you should only use them as needed.