I recently worked an Appleseed event using the new Instructor Manual version 5.0, and it struck me that a significant reason many of our students do not improve more quickly during the course of an Applessed weekend shoot is that the rifles they are using do not "fit" them properly and thus it is difficult or impossible for them to employ certain techniques we teach. The most obvious is the current method of teaching Natural Point of Aim. The new manual emphasizes in capital letters, TOTAL RELAXATION of the support arm. But many shooters have rifles whose front sling attachment is too far forward to keep the hand relaxed on the forend, and so have to use muscle tension to prevent the hand from falling. An expedient to correct this is to use a zip tie, tape, or bandage material, to wrap around the sling at the proper distance and allow the support hand to be held in place by the sling. Another easy adjustment is the scope too far to the rear, not allowing proper "turkey neck". Or the comb not being high enough to allow a proper cheek weld with use of a scope.
Another source of impossible NPOA is pain. If the sling tensioner buckle, for example, is biting into the shooter's hand or arm, this causes pain and involuntary muscle tension. The solution to this is obvious to us as instructors, but it may not be to a tyro shooter, who may feel that putting up with pain is part of the process. It isn't.
We tried having one of our instructors at a recent shoot to become our "armorer" for a while, and he took each shooter, turn in turn, and patiently worked until the major problems had been eliminated, at least as far as was possible during an Appleseed weekend. But at least the shooters realized that proper fit is necessary to get the tool to fit the user and enable the most skillful use.
I have been an instructor for a while now, and this should have been obvious to me long ago. I share in hopes of being able to present a better Appleseed "product" to all our wonderful Appleseed students.
DrJohn
Yes sir, Dr. John, and has been a pet peeve of mine for awhile if you dig through some of the "stock, scope, and sling" threads. When we're dealing with some of the smaller kids/ladies and follow the rack grade off the shelf thought process, they have to modify too much to adapt ingraining BAD form/habits instead of correct form/habits. We have to apply reason and logic of course, can't be out there with a saw and rasp working on stocks, but showing them the issues, adapting to what we can, and/or offering a loaner that's more suitable would give them a more favorable Appleseed experience....O.L.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=23417.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=21650.0
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=22817.0
I can feel their pain. :-)
It took me 4 or 5 Appleseeds to get my equipment to fit me properly. I came for my first shoot with stock sights and folding stock 10/22 LOL
Finally after many changes and experiments I ended up with a scoped, cantalevered scope base, trigger jobbed, recoil padded, cheek combed rifle.
I think it would be a good idea to institutionalize this "rifle fitting" as part of the program in some manner. Have tech sights, slings, even scopes, mounts and triggers, on hand would go a long way. Many must get discouraged as I can you that I was getting after 4 Appleseeds and still having equipment issues.
Thanks for your post.
It would take a considerable investment to have equipment for sale at every shoot. Look at the costs
Tech Sights $65+
Mounts $20+
Scope $75+
Sling $10
Swivles $12
Auto bolt $10
That comes out to close to $200 for 1 of each.
So a reasonable kit for a shoot would be what $600?
How does this sound, "I see you are having equipment problems so let me sell you $125 worth of upgrades, cash only"
I don't know if this would work well.
2cl
Quote from: tittiger on August 01, 2011, 02:45:51 PM
I can feel their pain. :-)
It took me 4 or 5 Appleseeds to get my equipment to fit me properly. I came for my first shoot with stock sights and folding stock 10/22 LOL
Finally after many changes and experiments I ended up with a scoped, cantalevered scope base, trigger jobbed, recoil padded, cheek combed rifle.
I think it would be a good idea to institutionalize this "rifle fitting" as part of the program in some manner. Have tech sights, slings, even scopes, mounts and triggers, on hand would go a long way. Many must get discouraged as I can you that I was getting after 4 Appleseeds and still having equipment issues.
Thanks for your post.
Depends how you look at things I guess.
Having one set of upgrades or even a partial set of upgrades is better than having no upgrades.
Many Instructors invest in a loaner rifle or two. Why not invest instead in some upgrade parts?
Or maybe better tying these parts to one or 2 ranges instead of people and having 5-10 instructors chip in $20 bucks each to get things off of the ground.
If we got things in bulk added a little markup and rolled the profits back into more upgrades we would eventually be able to have an adequate supply of parts. Perhaps boot-camps would be a good way to distribute these purchases.
Good post Dr. John.
I have thought about trying to advertise that shooters can come on Friday nights if several instructors are camping at the range or a nearby facility. If we had power for lights and drills, we could help modify several rifles the night before. I have tried contacting some suppliers to get sling swivel posts for under a dollar when bought in bulk.
At least we could have a drill, a dremel, some usgi slings, some sling posts and something to raise the comb up for some users. That really isn't that much out of pocket. I am thinking I could have $200 worth of materials, that would be enough to equip 10 shooters. Obviously, this wouldn't include tech-sights, but that may be an option down the road.
It's a real shame when we finally get people off their couch and on a line and they get fed up with their own equipment and may not get the real message out of the weekend. I think we should try and help them build their rifles on Friday nights, so they can get the most out of the instruction and history on Saturday.
I think Friday nights is a great idea Col Barett. I always arrive Friday night anyhow.
Part of getting off the couch and get involved in their government is getting off the couch to strive for accomplishments in life they want...Like a Rifleman patch. Yes, we can do a lot of these things for them but doing so, they don't get much out of it. Self reliance, need a mod or up grade to that rifle, show them how to do some things, explain and let them do others.
As for the above cost of stuff, much improvement can be done for little to no cost. (10-22)
Stock cut down and/or a rubber slip-on butt to fit the shooter, $20.
Bolt mod, 10 minuets with a Dremal...$0
Polish trigger sear, 10 minuets with a Dremal.... $0
Cut a loop off hammer spring, 5 minuets with a Dremal...$0
Trigger over travel set screw...50 cents
Extended mag release (if not already installed), $5
Mags sanded (and mag well) so they drop free. 5 minuets with an emery board.
Move forward sling stud back, 2 minuets with a drill. $2 if you don't have the stud. Don't need a rear stud if only a loop sling is used.
Sling $10-$14, 10 minuets to re-rig to make the loop faster and easier than a hasty. (put hook up front)
Those little changes makes the rifle MUCH more user friendly and costs little to nothing. Leaving only the sights/scopes to deal with....O.L.
I for one am looking forward to Nemo hunters Armorer's course at the Osage Beach boot camp in October.
It is shameful yes but I know very little about the inner workings of my 10/22. ++)
It is not required as of yet, but I know this knowledge will make me a better instructor.
I am concerned with making adjustments that require shooters to invest more money at an Appleseed. This would cause them to question the integrity of the instructors and the program. I'm all for helping folks with simple improvements that don't cost anything (such as those suggest by oladcock).
It was frustrating for me to watch a young boy fight with his rifle all day Saturday. It was constantly malfunctioning. Since his family was new to shooting, they had borrowed rifles that a friend had loaned them. I'm sure they would have been uneasy about having instructors modifying those loaners. Regardless, this boy had a great time and saw improvement in his shooting as the day progressed. He persevered and worked with what he had (also dad was making notes on what to look for in a rifle when making a later purchase).
To be honest, most people enjoy the Appleseeds they attend now because of the great instruction. I think we ask enough of the instructors as it is without having them spend a lot of time and money on parts and gunsmithing.
Just my $.25 worth,
- Shadowman
"It is shameful yes but I know very little about the inner workings of my 10/22."
Nothing to be ashamed of and good on you for being willing to learn. Issac Davis's bunch was better equiped...Why?... He was a blacksmith/gunsmith, he had the skiils and shared them with others. We all have our talents. Some of us started taking fishing reels apart when we were kids knowing if we didn't get them back together our dads would whip our tails. For the most part the worse that can happen is it takes you 4 hours on the internet looking at parts break downs to get it back together or you screw up a $5 part, but you learn and will be better at it the next time..O.L.
No, we don't want to jump in and start messing with folks rifles without their expressed permission and knowing exactly what you are going to do. I won't so much as touch a loose screw cause if I slip and scratch the rifle, they might not be happy! :)
In the case of the borrowed rifles that are malfunctioning, about the best we can do is loan them ones that will work, if we can. Sometimes you just got to play the hand we're dealt. I'd never do anything that takes more than a normal prep period to accomplish either. Not fair to them and others on the line......O.L.
Nothing wrong with giving folks advice on how their rifle fitting them better can help their shooting.
People can learn to shoot a rifle that doesn't fit them. The military does it all the time. Think of all those Marines and their M16's. One size fits all. It takes understanding, effort, practice.
Don't turn the rifle fit into an excuse for failure to learn, to try, to succeed on AQTs and the road to becoming a rifleman.
If you've ever seen VAshooter and listened to him talk about shooting an M1 Garand in competition its obvious a rifle that doesn't fit well can be shot well (even great).
There is nothing wrong with making your rifle fit you. Its a trial and error thing - unless you've got a lot of experience doing it already. Trial and error in the size and fitting of the pieces you add to the rifle to make it fit you better.
I like the idea of placing an AR scope where you have a similar cheek weld to the iron sights. I do that, too. I use Warne QD rings. I have them on two rifles and I've seen both return to zero with the scope when the scope has been reinstalled after using the iron sights.
The idea of turkey necking is to get a consistent check weld. There are other ways to do it (thumb over the stock with check on your thumb, a piece of tape on the stock, placement of the cheekpad if you intall one).
"If you've ever seen VAshooter and listened to him talk about shooting an M1 Garand in competition its obvious a rifle that doesn't fit well can be shot well (even great)."
Is VAshooter a little guy shooting a long rifle or a big guy shooting one that's too short? Most any of us can adapt and shoot well with one that's too short but not the other way around. Add 2 or 3" to your favorite rifle and see what happens! :) That's what we're asking many of the kids and ladies to do.......O.L.
I am gratified at the amount of interest generated by this thread. It ran off in a direction somewhat unanticipated, however. I merely meant to point out that an ill-fitting rifle makes it difficult to impossible to achieve NPOA because of pain or the necessity of muscle tension to retain the rifle in position. An experienced Rifleman can overcome such obstacles, but it is not ideal and many of our students are neophytes.
The idea was that by simple and very inexpensive modifications, many of these problems can be overcome, at least in a temporary fashion suitable for the weekend's purposes. For a student to be able to actually RELAX into the sling with no muscle input whatever is a revelation to most, and at least shows them what the ideal is to which they may want to work. Actually, most adjustments we have made at previous Appleseed events were temporary and reversible. Since one may ADD length to a buttstock or the height of a comb with such expedients such as PVC insulation and duct tape, we have tended to go in that direction. We have never permanently modified a student's rifle. Thus we tend to focus on easy and reversible remedies such as increasing length of pull or putting a zip tie around the sling and closer to the trigger guard, not chopping off the stock or replacing the front sling swivel. Such modifications as we have done can be reversed later should it become necessary, such as when a student grows into a larger size or wishes to sell or trade the rifle for another. Many thanks to the Appleseeders who contributed to this thread. It is just a good idea for instructors to remember that equipment problems can sometimes prevent faster learning, and that there are often quick and inexpensive expedients to remedy the situation to make our students' experience easier and more productive.
VAshooter said when he first expressed interest in joining the Navy Rifle Team he was told he wasn't big enough to shoot an M1 Garand. I might be wrong as I never asked him how tall he is but he's pretty short. In fact, he'd probably have a lot of good input on a thread like this. Between his own experience and what he's seen over the years in competition shooting he's most likely seen the solutions to a lot of rifle fit issues.
As I've said previous (a time or two), I made my old 10/22 fit me better. Added a slightly longer buttplate extension to the stock. Since it had no sling swivels I put my own on it where they fit me better.
If a change is made that I don't like I can't go around blaming someone else. Try not to put yourself or Appleseed in the position of being blamed for causing someone to spend money, make changes, etc. that don't work out for someone and then have a dissatisfied attendee make trouble on the internet. For the newer folks (in case you hadn't seen evidence of it) Appleseed/RWVA has been maligned on the internet several times over the first 2 or 3 years of the program. Folks attended Appleseeds, went back home, got on the internet on their favorite forums and complained about all kinds of things that were wrong about the program. No reason to give folks more reason. I don't see any harm in making suggestions but I'd be afraid to make changes to someone's rifle or charge them for parts, etc.
Making suggestions take a few minutes (and you get quicker/better at it with experience :)) but actually working on rifles at an Appleseed can take a lot of time away from the coaching on the line unless you have sufficient instructions to make up for it.
one of the reasons I like the RBC, there is time/opportunity to help and check rifle issues. For 2 day events I have a variety of loaners that can be quickly made ideal for any shooter/ammo, like others said: too many issues trying to gunsmith on the line
"I'd never do anything that takes more than a normal prep period to accomplish either. Not fair to them and others on the line.".... O.L.
As a complete and utter newbie ( I am going to my 1st Appleseed in mid-August...and I am EXCITED to have the opportunity!) I would welcome the opportunity to sit down with the instructors on Friday night to go over my equipment and make certain that it is up to speed. I am participating to become a "rifleman" and part of that is having the equipment squared away so I can work on "me". In fact, the Friday night of the course may be too late if significant modifications are needed. What you might think of doing is have some sort of prepatory "night" well before the shoot to give people time enough to get their "kit" squared away. I've read the website, got the list, got Fred's information, and have been practising, but would jump at the chance to have someone look at what I have and make suggestions.
Having an "armorer" (Appleseed) at each event sounds like a good idea. If equipment breaks or malfunctions having someone there who knows how to fix it would be a great help. I think there would be an opportunity for a gunsmith - just like horseshows have farriers in attendance as a service to the participants.
I can't see any criticism of an organization that wants to help and individual achieve his potential. Getting equipment issues out of the way to focus on the skills can only be helpful. I would be critical of an organization that would take my money knowing that the equipment that I was going to use would not allow me to focus on the true reason I enrolled. As long as goods and services are in good faith and/or professional third party (major work) and under no duress, I think most newbies like me would be THANKFUL for the help and recommendations.
Just sayin' :bow:
Looking forward to meeing you...I am SO looking forward to this shoot.
Harry
I had the opportunity to work with Dr.John at a recent shoot, and took note of his use of a zip tie to secure the sling on one of our shooters rifles to better fit her. It's a technique that I'll use in the future. Which is exactly what I think Dr.John was looking to accomplish with this thread. As stated elsewhere, Appleseed is an American Heritage Program with a Shooting Problem. We have to be careful not to get too caught up in the equipment piece. Leverage what the shooters have available, but if we can talk about, or make on the spot tweaks to better fit a rifle, those are the techniques that we as instructors need to have in our kit bag. There's a reason most of us need 3 or more shoots to qualify as rifleman, a component to that is our equipment. There's nothing wrong with planting the seed, establishing the interest, and letting a shooter grow into their rifle of choice.
This topic comes up every so often on here and while we're all fired up to help everyone get kitted and fitted, we have to keep in mind there are more pressing issues to deal with. The event must go on.
While it's important to do what you can with helping shooters "fit" into their rifles, is that what we're there to do?
I like the enthusiasm of getting them into a properly sized piece of equipment, but is that our responsibility or theirs?
We should absolutely do what we can to help them fit into their rifle but we have to remember they're there to learn the basics of marksmanship, not how to soup up their gear.
I am in no way an expert or a lawyer but I believe I remember being told by Ornell a few years ago that the only way he could work on a rifle for someone was if that person was there with him when it was being worked on.
An FFL can work on your rifle for you but you should be there with your "friend" when he works on it for you.
If that's true, be sure to keep the owner with you while working on it, if not, feel free to ignore this post. I just don't want to see someone get in trouble.
After reading this thread, I experimented a bit with my Marlin 795. I have added a slip-on recoil pad (Butler Creek - about $10) to make it a touch longer. I also put 2 layers of simple pipe foam insulation ($3?) and wrapped that with vet tape ($3). I don't know if I am shooting significantly better yet, but it certainly feels like the rifle fits me better now. And all of that work took 10 minutes and less than $20 (with enough pipe foam and vet wrap to do several more rifles).
Quote from: Old Dog on August 13, 2011, 09:07:52 PM
...An FFL can work on your rifle for you but you should be there with your "friend" when he works on it for you....
If you are in a State such as WI where private transfers are not required to go through a FFL there is nothing prohibiting you from taking your "friend's" firearm home and then returning it....
Here is the definition of a Gunsmith which requires a FFL...
QuoteTitle 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms ยง 478.11 Meaning of terms.
(d) Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;